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Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers > Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar Tom Vodhanel 06:30 PM 06-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by mijotter View Post

I cannot, the front seats are butted right up against the riser for the second row.

If the sub can be moved, nor the seating you can tame peaks with EQ, but for severe nulls the last resort may be some form of bass trap.

Before getting too far into that though I would try to make absolutely certain your measurements are accurate. Try to measure each speaker individually, and then the sub individually.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Tom Vodhanel's Avatar Tom Vodhanel 06:33 PM 06-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

i'll need to google that. When I recommended that particular SPL meter I didn't consider you may need to use it as the mic for REW. Let me check on this for you.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

It appears the 814 I have on hand has a 3.5mm output jack. I'll track down an adapter to make sure this works tomorrow morning.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
bear123's Avatar bear123 06:50 PM 06-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by mijotter View Post


I cannot, the front seats are butted right up against the riser for the second row.

You should post some photos of your room.  Some fresh sets of eyes might think of an option you are overlooking.


raynist's Avatar raynist 07:15 PM 06-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

That works, we'll try to make this happen late summer(ish)..smile.gif


Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

I am in for this!!
bear123's Avatar bear123 07:34 PM 06-02-2014

Since I am on the grille, I've got the German bratwurst covered.


ahblaza's Avatar ahblaza 08:28 PM 06-02-2014
Tom Bear and Ray, I'm in on that myself, maybe you could pick me up Ray since you know where I live biggrin.gif I will have my second Total Hip Replacement done and be all healed by then and I'm the closest to PSA I think, about a little over an hour.
OK guys reco me a boom tripod mic stand that accepts the screw on Audyssey or a SPL meter, do I need to get an adapter for this. I have a nice tripod camera stand now but I would like one with the boom so I can just swing the mic where I want it. Oh and one that doesn't cost an arm and leg. Do you que? I do, let's do it guys, sounds like a great time.smile.gif
Cheers Jeff
basshead81's Avatar basshead81 08:55 PM 06-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

You don't have to worry about manually noting each test frequency if you are using REW. Instead of the sine waves just use the SWEEP function in REW. Keep the output levels low(75-80dB) and use a sweep around 5 seconds or so. You will need to connect the soundcard output of the PC to one of the analog inputs on your receiver. I don't have much hands on with REW but I believe you can use the SPL meter as he microphone.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

If the Laptop and AVR both have hdmi then you can use that which bypasses the sound card. I found it to be much easier to set up REW this way.
dominguez1's Avatar dominguez1 09:23 PM 06-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

But I can say if you are finding worse performance from the SE driver in any measurement metric being discussed here (except how the FR relates to each specific room transfer)....there is something wrong. The measurement are wrong, your settings are off, or your SE products are non performing the way they should be. My advice would be to try to separate FR, compression and THD data collection. They are really three different things. If you trying to do (sigh) in room thd and compare it to outside GP burst data....at the very least use the same test tones..smile.gif

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Tom, is the slope the same below 20hz between the XV and xvse models? Could that be what bass is running into? Overall max output could be greater below 20hz for the xvse on a max output chart, but if the rolloff is steeper, it could be more difficult to attain without eq.
basshead81's Avatar basshead81 10:21 PM 06-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Tom, is the slope the same below 20hz between the XV and xvse models? Could that be what bass is running into? Overall max output could be greater below 20hz for the xvse on a max output chart, but if the rolloff is steeper, it could be more difficult to attain without eq.

I think you might be on to something here....hmm
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar Tom Vodhanel 10:20 AM 06-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Tom, is the slope the same below 20hz between the XV and xvse models? Could that be what bass is running into? Overall max output could be greater below 20hz for the xvse on a max output chart, but if the rolloff is steeper, it could be more difficult to attain without eq.

Oh absolutely. Under 20hz I agree....as the room transfer function will have a big role to play as well. Also, the maximum output capabilities <20hz will be reached with program material at very loud volume levels...but you may not reach them with "thd checks". The latter depends on many variables.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Beefwahl's Avatar Beefwahl 11:12 AM 06-03-2014
Cool. My second XS30 has been ordered and shipped! Great deal on a "b-stock" that I couldn't refuse!

Hope my wife likes the new end table...

Barbie Pop-Star is going to bring down the walls!!!
dominguez1's Avatar dominguez1 01:30 PM 06-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Oh absolutely. Under 20hz I agree....as the room transfer function will have a big role to play as well. Also, the maximum output capabilities <20hz will be reached with program material at very loud volume levels...but you may not reach them with "thd checks". The latter depends on many variables.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Thanks for the response tom. But just for clarification, did you mean to say they have the same roll off below 20hz between the XV and xvse or different?

I didn't know which question "oh absolutely" was answering. smile.gif
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar Tom Vodhanel 01:45 PM 06-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Thanks for the response tom. But just for clarification, did you mean to say they have the same roll off below 20hz between the XV and xvse or different?

I didn't know which question "oh absolutely" was answering. smile.gif

Sorry I wasn't clear. They have different roll-offs <20hz. But both products will reach their maximum clean output levels when dictated by the input signal.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
dominguez1's Avatar dominguez1 02:46 PM 06-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Sorry I wasn't clear. They have different roll-offs <20hz. But both products will reach their maximum clean output levels when dictated by the input signal.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Thanks Tom.

So if I understood correctly, the xvse has a steeper rolloff below 20hz as compared to the xv.

Basshead, this is probably explains what you've been experiencing.
sputter1's Avatar sputter1 02:55 PM 06-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Sorry I wasn't clear. They have different roll-offs <20hz. But both products will reach their maximum clean output levels when dictated by the input signal.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Thanks Tom.

So if I understood correctly, the xvse has a steeper rolloff below 20hz as compared to the xv.

Basshead, this is probably explains what you've been experiencing.

Makes their graphs look correct then. They gave up depth for spl.
jer181's Avatar jer181 03:35 PM 06-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

i'll need to google that. When I recommended that particular SPL meter I didn't consider you may need to use it as the mic for REW. Let me check on this for you.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

I don't actually have a mic. The only reason I download REW is because you ad recommended it for the sine waves or test tones that it has.

What is the difference in using plugging the laptop in the the AVR via HMDI or using the 3.5mm to RCA the the AVR like you suggested?
jer181's Avatar jer181 04:05 PM 06-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

If the Laptop and AVR both have hdmi then you can use that which bypasses the sound card. I found it to be much easier to set up REW this way.

Okay, if doing that, and my SPL meter has a USB connection, shouldn't I be able to hook that directly up to my computer and have it record the measurements in REW? Not sure how accurate it would be as it was a mic. though, as that wasn't really my intention. But if it works all the better.
ahblaza's Avatar ahblaza 05:14 PM 06-03-2014
Guys, how about that boom mic stand with tripod function fo ruse with the Audy mic and a SPL meter. TIA
bear123's Avatar bear123 06:11 PM 06-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post

They gave up depth for spl.

For me the jury is still out on this.  I have more work to do on setting up my subs a bit better(I think) and improving my eq, but I have recorded 108dB at 16 Hz from my dual XV15se.  So far I can maintain 110 from just under 20 to past crossover, but I feel like I can gain some more headroom with better integration, as I can exceed 115 at certain frequencies.  This is from 3 meters as well.


dominguez1's Avatar dominguez1 06:54 PM 06-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

For me the jury is still out on this.  I have more work to do on setting up my subs a bit better(I think) and improving my eq, but I have recorded 108dB at 16 Hz from my dual XV15se.  So far I can maintain 110 from just under 20 to past crossover, but I feel like I can gain some more headroom with better integration, as I can exceed 115 at certain frequencies.  This is from 3 meters as well.
Boosting below tune is a risky approach...just be careful. I doubt that any damage as a result would be covered under warranty.

I understand that your leveraging the fact that you don't listen at reference...but the scenario you are toying with is exactly how upgradeitus begins....I remember when I first started in this hobby, I said I would NEVER watch movies more than -18db...and I did exactly as you, boosted below tune. What I found is that the mv dial kept creeping up, and soon my ported sub couldn't handle it. I went to sealed at ending up tearing the spider (not covered under warranty) of the driver with boost.

I guess my point is, if you left it in its natural rolloff, you would likely never be prone to damaging the driver and less prone to upgradeitius. My .02
sputter1's Avatar sputter1 07:40 PM 06-03-2014
+1 Dom
Timokreon's Avatar Timokreon 08:21 PM 06-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post

Guys, how about that boom mic stand with tripod function fo ruse with the Audy mic and a SPL meter. TIA

I personally picked up a mic stand at my local guitar store, plus an attachment like this. http://www.amazon.com/CM01-Camera-Digital-Recorder-Adapter/dp/B001GWCC4I

I think I paid like $40 for my stand. It's an "on stage stand" brand.. I'm sure I could have paid more or less if I wanted. It's all they had in stock. lol biggrin.gif
digler84's Avatar digler84 08:38 PM 06-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by mijotter View Post


I'm only 2.5 hours away I can bring homemade cookies and strawberry rubarb pie:)

i grew up in toledo, now live in columbus, so i'm about 2 hours away from tom and gang.  it just so happens that i LOVE subs, LOVE BBQ, and LOVE rhubarb pie!!!!  oh, and for the few of you that are in steeler country....i LOVE my steelers too!  so basically, just try to keep me away from this GTG!!   talk about a perfect storm.....geez.  


flydeep's Avatar flydeep 08:51 PM 06-03-2014
This is probably one of the most insightful and experienced comments I have read in a while. It hasn't been a month and I am finding myself getting going down that road. Hope my triple XS30se's last me for a while, I am broke to think about any new additions anytime soon smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Boosting below tune is a risky approach...just be careful. I doubt that any damage as a result would be covered under warranty.

I understand that your leveraging the fact that you don't listen at reference...but the scenario you are toying with is exactly how upgradeitus begins....I remember when I first started in this hobby, I said I would NEVER watch movies more than -18db...and I did exactly as you, boosted below tune. What I found is that the mv dial kept creeping up, and soon my ported sub couldn't handle it. I went to sealed at ending up tearing the spider (not covered under warranty) of the driver with boost.

I guess my point is, if you left it in its natural rolloff, you would likely never be prone to damaging the driver and less prone to upgradeitius. My .02

basshead81's Avatar basshead81 09:11 PM 06-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Thanks Tom.

So if I understood correctly, the xvse has a steeper rolloff below 20hz as compared to the xv.

Basshead, this is probably explains what you've been experiencing.

Yes that is what I have experienced. I posted the long term compression sweep graphs of both drivers several pages back...the XVse has a much sharper roll off. I use to be +/-3db down to 16hz, now I am +/-3db down to 20hz. This is no eq, subs in same location, mic in the same spot.
XV


XVse



If you look at the charts both drivers have the same output at 16hz, below that is where XV has a advantage.
dominguez1's Avatar dominguez1 09:48 PM 06-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by flydeep View Post

This is probably one of the most insightful and experienced comments I have read in a while. It hasn't been a month and I am finding myself getting going down that road. Hope my triple XS30se's last me for a while, I am broke to think about any new additions anytime soon smile.gif

In my experience, it's the below 20hz that causes the most upgradeitus...once you experience it at a certain volume, you keep wanting more and more of that feeling and soon you're running hot with the subs over reference to get that smile on your face!

 

Reference output above 20hz becomes table stakes after you reach a certain class of sub or subs. It's the ULF that starts to differentiate sub systems IMHO. Having said that, I'm speaking from experience of a relatively small room where ULF is not difficult to produce. For those with very large rooms, for most the focus should be on 20hz reference output, as striving below that starts to become a money pit (unless DIY) and you become slave to a sub farm, or sub monuments! Notice, I never said that was a bad thing either! :cool:

 

The XS30SE's look like a very capable sub that I'm sure is designed very well. You shouldn't have any problems with damaging the drivers as a result. In my case, the amp of my sealed sub had too much power for the driver. They implemented a HPF in the amp, but greedy me really liked the low stuff. I boosted through the HPF, and since the amp was powerful enough, it damaged the driver over time. In my case, it was a slow death and all of a sudden it just stopped working. With the XVSE, Tom likely paired the power so you can't ever get in trouble...unless you start running sine waves at very low frequencies for long periods of time. For the ported subs, not sure if boosting below tune damage is a slow death or an immediate one...


basshead81's Avatar basshead81 10:42 PM 06-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

In my experience, it's the below 20hz that causes the most upgradeitus...once you experience it at a certain volume, you keep wanting more and more of that feeling and soon you're running hot with the subs over reference to get that smile on your face!

Reference output above 20hz becomes table stakes after you reach a certain class of sub or subs. It's the ULF that starts to differentiate sub systems IMHO. Having said that, I'm speaking from experience of a relatively small room where ULF is not difficult to produce. For those with very large rooms, for most the focus should be on 20hz reference output, as striving below that starts to become a money pit (unless DIY) and you become slave to a sub farm, or sub monuments! Notice, I never said that was a bad thing either! cool.gif

The XS30SE's look like a very capable sub that I'm sure is designed very well. You shouldn't have any problems with damaging the drivers as a result. In my case, the amp of my sealed sub had too much power for the driver. They implemented a HPF in the amp, but greedy me really liked the low stuff. I boosted through the HPF, and since the amp was powerful enough, it damaged the driver over time. In my case, it was a slow death and all of a sudden it just stopped working. With the XVSE, Tom likely paired the power so you can't ever get in trouble...unless you start running sine waves at very low frequencies for long periods of time. For the ported subs, not sure if boosting below tune damage is a slow death or an immediate one...

Fly's room is 6000^3 fwiw.
flydeep's Avatar flydeep 11:19 PM 06-03-2014
Thanks basshead.

Dominq - My listening room is about 4200 ft^3 primarily because the living room extends into kitchen beyond the MLP, I sit about 8 ft from the TV and subs. What basshead is referring to is the overall first floor space since this living room extends into other rooms about 1500 ft^3 through two 4ft openings. As basshead said it is fairly a large space to pressurize but surprisingly I can feel the ULF effects (I think) at relatively higher volume with subs around 8-10 dB below reference. As I stand in the room (no couch/chair vibrations) I can feel as though there is a slight wind gust and ears popping feeling smile.gif My intent of getting 3 subs was to try and have one near the MLP for the tactile effect.

When I initially spoke with Tom, I told him that I typically will not exceed my listening levels beyond -20dB from reference but I find myself pushing close to -15dB quite often after the family has gone to sleep. so I hear ya when you say expectations change when you have a capable setup.
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Fly's room is 6000^3 fwiw.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

In my experience, it's the below 20hz that causes the most upgradeitus...once you experience it at a certain volume, you keep wanting more and more of that feeling and soon you're running hot with the subs over reference to get that smile on your face!

Reference output above 20hz becomes table stakes after you reach a certain class of sub or subs. It's the ULF that starts to differentiate sub systems IMHO. Having said that, I'm speaking from experience of a relatively small room where ULF is not difficult to produce. For those with very large rooms, for most the focus should be on 20hz reference output, as striving below that starts to become a money pit (unless DIY) and you become slave to a sub farm, or sub monuments! Notice, I never said that was a bad thing either! cool.gif

The XS30SE's look like a very capable sub that I'm sure is designed very well. You shouldn't have any problems with damaging the drivers as a result. In my case, the amp of my sealed sub had too much power for the driver. They implemented a HPF in the amp, but greedy me really liked the low stuff. I boosted through the HPF, and since the amp was powerful enough, it damaged the driver over time. In my case, it was a slow death and all of a sudden it just stopped working. With the XVSE, Tom likely paired the power so you can't ever get in trouble...unless you start running sine waves at very low frequencies for long periods of time. For the ported subs, not sure if boosting below tune damage is a slow death or an immediate one...

bear123's Avatar bear123 04:40 AM 06-04-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post


Boosting below tune is a risky approach...just be careful. I doubt that any damage as a result would be covered under warranty.

I understand that your leveraging the fact that you don't listen at reference...but the scenario you are toying with is exactly how upgradeitus begins....I remember when I first started in this hobby, I said I would NEVER watch movies more than -18db...and I did exactly as you, boosted below tune. What I found is that the mv dial kept creeping up, and soon my ported sub couldn't handle it. I went to sealed at ending up tearing the spider (not covered under warranty) of the driver with boost.

I guess my point is, if you left it in its natural rolloff, you would likely never be prone to damaging the driver and less prone to upgradeitius. My .02

I sent my in room response graphs to Tom from before and after eq...he said it should not cause any problems with longevity.  I did boost the 16-20 area to be flat, but would not have done so if reference level was the norm or even an occasional thing.  However, I did demo WoTW pod scene at -5 with my house curve and eq and the subs did not noticeably object....it was very impressive.  They still roll off below 16 so I think the demand to produce very low frequencies is still lower than with the old roll of and original drivers.  I am at the very top of my budget with this setup, and I think it is the most capable I can get for the money I spent for output down to 16 Hz outside of DIY.  Even with DIY I think I would have to go with larger cabs to get much of an improvement.


bear123's Avatar bear123 06:42 AM 06-04-2014

Ok, I know this is not the miniDSP forum, but hoping to catch someone that may know the answer to this.  I am going to be working some more on dialing in my subs next monday, and I am perplexed a bit by the stereo or mono option on the miniDSP, which is found on the system settings tab.  Up until now I have had the miniDSP in mono mode, with a single input from my AVR to input one, and subs hooked up to output 1 and 3.  With no changes other than toggling from mono to stereo, here is what it does to my response:

 

Obviously, stereo is providing a much superior response with a 3.2 dB increase in output at 20 Hz with no eq, eliminating the dip at 40 Hz, and improving the dip at 80.  The only thing I know to do is to check the individual output level of each sub to see if this is increasing one of the subs output, affecting the FR.  This seems like the most likely scenario.n  I have noticed that one of the subs has to be turned up pretty much 100% gain in order to level match when I calibrated in mono.

 

Although the response is much better in my opinion and will make eq a lot better, I wonder what the drawback, if any, will be.


Tags: Xs30 , Velodyne Sms 1 In Room Bass Correction Kit With Included Microphone , Denon Avr 3313ci Receiver , Denon Avr 4520ci Receiver , Power Sound Audio , Xv15 , Power Sound Audio Triax , Room Equilizer Wizard Rew , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver
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