Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 403 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #12061 of 29859 Old 06-07-2014, 09:33 AM
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With having 3 xv15se's I can't help but feel I need that 4th one. Right now I have 2 of them 3 feet behind the coach in each corner with the ports facing out to eachother and the 3rd up front left corner. I feel the air pressure hit the coach and love it. I do still have a 4th sub hooked up front in right corner but its klipsch RW12D and really is not able to keep up with the xv15se's. This right corner is also the walk way into the kitchen/dinning area which is an open space of a room of 40x20ft with vaulted ceilings. Is this other room area really effecting my bass response? I really do eye that triax and keep telling myself I don't need it. 3k is alot for speaker even if knocks the house loose lol. Also I keep hearing about PSA speakers, has there been any info on these released? What can we expect from them in comparison to othere speakers? Ive been thinking about upgrading my fronts to polk lsim 707s.

Your Klipsch is probably hurting your bass more than helping it. With the different roll-off curve you are most likely going to introduce phase shift problems and cause cancellation at certain freqs. Have you done bass sweep measurements with and without the RW12D? I can't imagine four subs. My two XV15SEs are threatening to shake my pictures off the wall... biggrin.gif

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post #12062 of 29859 Old 06-07-2014, 10:25 AM
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Yea I am a little worried about the frequency canceling out. The klipsch is ported to, not sure if it makes the difference. I have not done any measurements because I do not have a mic. The $100 that I spend on a mic could go towards the 4th xv15se. If I do end up getting a mic what is the best one for price to get? Do I need an spl meeter too? I'm not sure if I want to take time to learn REW either, although that knowledge of understanding whats going on in my room is priceless.
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Originally Posted by climber07 View Post

Your Klipsch is probably hurting your bass more than helping it. With the different roll-off curve you are most likely going to introduce phase shift problems and cause cancellation at certain freqs. Have you done bass sweep measurements with and without the RW12D? I can't imagine four subs. My two XV15SEs are threatening to shake my pictures off the wall... biggrin.gif

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post #12063 of 29859 Old 06-07-2014, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by J1102g View Post

Yea I am a little worried about the frequency canceling out. The klipsch is ported to, not sure if it makes the difference. I have not done any measurements because I do not have a mic. The $100 that I spend on a mic could go towards the 4th xv15se. If I do end up getting a mic what is the best one for price to get? Do I need an spl meeter too? I'm not sure if I want to take time to learn REW either, although that knowledge of understanding whats going on in my room is priceless.

I bought a simple cheap SPL meter from RadioShack and I use REW on a laptop connected via HDMI to run test tones. This will enable you to dial in your subs (without running a DSP) by placement, distance settings, and phase. I didn't want to learn REW either. Besides, without a miniDSP, learning the in-depth inner workings of REW really isn't critical.

How big is your room?

You probably don't need a fourth sub. You probably need to dial in the three you have. Heck, I would wager that without running test tones and measuring avg peak SPL, you are probably running the same SPL as a single or dual sub setup. You should measure each sub independently at the MLP and then turn the other subs on one at a time. You should notice an increase in SPL (or the filling of a null) but adding subs should never go down in SPL. This is what happened to me with a specific sub placement. Room acoustics are murder on bass due to the long wavelengths. Filling in nulls is part of the reason for going with multiple subs, however, multiple subs can hurt more than they help if not set up properly. I spent a month trying to get mine set up properly because I was dead set on a certain position for the subs. When Tom told me to stack and corner load them, WOW!.

Here's a really good read on subwoofers and standing waves:

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=48286

This video is probably one of the best visualizations of standing waves (nulls and peaks) form and how the position of said waves change with frequency:



Although very complex due to the number of variables and surfaces interacted with, you can do simple calculations to determine (roughly) where certain nulls may appear in your room at certain frequencies. Wavelength equals speed of sound divided by the frequency. In straight lines, waves will cancel out at 180 degrees (half of the wavelength) when they meet. When they meet at full wavelength, you have peaks.
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post #12064 of 29859 Old 06-07-2014, 12:08 PM
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The Klipsch should not really hurt things if it is integrated correctly in the system. The 3 similar subs all have a different room response based on being in a different location. Since the Klipsch is near an open area it will not have the same output as the corner loaded subs. The corner location adds around 10 db. As long as all 4 subs are level matched at the MLP things should actually be a little better at the MLP. Usually with 4 subwoofers the is some cancellation but, the net result is a better room response. It will decrease peaks and dips as expected. The fourth sub at best may only offer around 2 db increase in spl over 3 subs due to the destructive interference. Just make sure none of the subs are being over-driven. Which should not be a big problem considering the headroom with 4 subs in the system. In this situation, the weakest sub should be closer to the MLP than the stronger subs.
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post #12065 of 29859 Old 06-07-2014, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

The Klipsch should not really hurt things if it is integrated correctly in the system. The 3 similar subs all have a different room response based on being in a different location. Since the Klipsch is near an open area it will not have the same output as the corner loaded subs. The corner location adds around 10 db. As long as all 4 subs are level matched at the MLP things should actually be a little better at the MLP. Usually with 4 subwoofers the is some cancellation but, the net result is a better room response. It will decrease peaks and dips as expected. The fourth sub at best may only offer around 2 db increase in spl over 3 subs due to the destructive interference. Just make sure none of the subs are being over-driven. Which should not be a big problem considering the headroom with 4 subs in the system. In this situation, the weakest sub should be closer to the MLP than the stronger subs.

Thanks for the info derrick, much appreciated as I ordered four subs and need to know it wasn't a mistake. I don't think I needed four just want to experience the experience. Thank you Climber as well.
Cheers Jeff
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post #12066 of 29859 Old 06-07-2014, 04:48 PM
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...much appreciated as I ordered four subs and need to know it wasn't a mistake.

You may have an addiction, but you can never have too many subs. biggrin.gif
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post #12067 of 29859 Old 06-07-2014, 05:08 PM
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climber07 thanks for that post i will watch that video when i have a moment without 3 screaming kids haha. my LV is 22x16, and my onkyo 3010 has MultEQ XT32 with subEQ and 4 sub outputs 2 sets of 2 independent of each other. when running Audyssey i set each sub level to 80db even though 75 is recommended one at a time. when measuring the first set of subs upfront i had to adjust the phase but when i did i had an increase of 4 db, as did my rear subs. so in the end they where outputting 84db with front subs and 84db with rear subs even though the sub level was set to 80db. if this makes since.

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post #12068 of 29859 Old 06-07-2014, 06:24 PM
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Is a Dayton Audio EMM-6 a good mic for rew? Amazon got it on sale for $47?

Onkyo tx nr3010 Polk rti12's fronts Polk CSI A6 center Polk RTI6 front hights 4 Polk FXIA6 surrounds, and surround backs 3 power sound audio xv15se Subwoofers Oppo bd103,Mitsubishi WD-65638 65-Inch,Panasonic 50" TC-P50ST60,
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post #12069 of 29859 Old 06-07-2014, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Well, we originally were working on the SE driver design as something for the Triax. Therefore performance goals were quite high as was the acceptable cost per unit...after all, these were going to be used in a $2999 product! As the engineering process continued one key issue began cropping up within the Power-X product line. This was our difficulty in maintaining adequate inventory levels to ensure uninterrupted product shipping. So during the latter stages of the LAB15 experimentation we branched off into two different(but ultimately very similar) design tangents. First, we still continued in our attempts to optimized a custom variant of the LAB15 for the Triax design. Second, we began work to see if we could somehow do a "scaled down" version for the Power-X lineup. It didn't take us long to realize a scaled down version wasn't the best route for us to consider. We would measure "best version(which was essentially the Triax version with minor motor tweaks)" against "scaled down version" and the difference was obvious. In some ways, it was even more obvious in our listening sessions. The fly in the ointment was that the new "best version" was very expensive----roughly double what we have been paying for our Power-X drivers to date. So we were faced with a choice of maintaining pricing and going with a "really good" option, or increasing pricing and going with the best sounding Power-X driver we have ever heard/measured. Every time I see comments like this I become more convinced we have made the correct choice..smile.gif

The reality is, the Power-X SE drivers are "Triax quality" in every regard as that was their original landing spot so to speak.

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Well the 7.2 project is complete! New surround speaks and amps on the way. After reading this seems like I immediately have to start saving for the Xs15SE upgrade! Will the insanity ever end?biggrin.gif
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post #12070 of 29859 Old 06-08-2014, 01:53 AM
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Could a wireless sub option work with my setup or is that a no no to mix wired and wireless?

Also, not going to be able to add another big daddy sub or anything that will require construction. Just can't afford it right now and as of right now, no more construction. I carefully went through each idea on here and ran than by my wife as well. So my option would be: I have some room in front of each main speaker that will still be tucked in between the front cabinet and the wall. 12.5" wide by 7" deep by 17" high. That would give me 2 additional subs but I don't know what if anything could fit in that space. And if I found something I would have to Y split the two in to my second sub jack in the AVR. Not sure if that will cause issues at all.

Is this a feasible plan? Or would not be worth it/put a damper on the already good bass from the XS30se because they're smaller?

Thanks.

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post #12071 of 29859 Old 06-08-2014, 02:08 AM
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Could a wireless sub option work with my setup or is that a no no to mix wired and wireless?

You should be fine so long as the distances (delays) are properly calculated and adjusted in the AVR. The wireless option is simply another transmission medium and might add a few milliseconds to the mix.

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post #12072 of 29859 Old 06-08-2014, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by mijotter View Post

Could a wireless sub option work with my setup or is that a no no to mix wired and wireless?

Also, not going to be able to add another big daddy sub or anything that will require construction. Just can't afford it right now and as of right now, no more construction. I carefully went through each idea on here and ran than by my wife as well. So my option would be: I have some room in front of each main speaker that will still be tucked in between the front cabinet and the wall. 12.5" wide by 7" deep by 17" high. That would give me 2 additional subs but I don't know what if anything could fit in that space. And if I found something I would have to Y split the two in to my second sub jack in the AVR. Not sure if that will cause issues at all.

Is this a feasible plan? Or would not be worth it/put a damper on the already good bass from the XS30se because they're smaller?

Thanks.

If your avr has the ability to set the distances for 2 subs then that would work, if not then I would suggest either going both wired or both wireless. The dimension you gave for another sub is pointless...nothing that small is going to come close to keeping up with the XS30.

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Update:

1) New baby. Name Jovani. On his 3rd day a trip to the ER. Drs didn't know what was wrong with him, but he's good now smile.gif
2) New to us, but old house we are buying. Had to move at the same time Jovani was born.
3) Found out who my true friends are while moving. All I can say is WOW....funny how many volunteered, but the one who didn't volunteer showed up.
4) Sold my Pioneer SC-1522-K locally for $500. Bought the Denon X4000. I haven't had time to connect my HT up yet.
5) I've spent approximately $10K at Lowes already for house upgrades / fixing.
6) I haven't had much time to unpack. My PSA-XV15 still in the garage. My Arx speakers all suffer a little bit of corner damage while moving on the last day. People didn't listen to me about leaving my HT for last so crap happened. Damages isn't really visible unless you're looking for it, but I'm pissed about it.
7) The bad part: I will have to wait to order my second XV-15, and to upgrade my current XV-15 mad.gif I kind of went over budget just on windows lol, but we need them.

I'm hoping to have time to set up my HT today. I still have to wire the house with Cat6 cable and I might have to replace my Arx A3 surround towers for bookshelf speakers. I've got a long ways to go.
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post #12074 of 29859 Old 06-08-2014, 08:57 AM
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Good to hear the baby is ok. I have a 6 week old and still can't sleep at night because I'm to worried about her lol
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Good to hear the baby is ok. I have a 6 week old and still can't sleep at night because I'm to worried about her lol

This is our third baby. I can be sound as sleep, but I can be awaken by any sound Jovani makes. I almost broke my leg at the hospital when he started whining while I was asleep. I forgot I was sleeping on the hospital super duper uncomfortable couch, got up so fast I had to perform some Spider-Man moves to stay on my feet. My wife was laughing her butt off though mad.gif
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Congrats on the baby

We have a 3 week old girl at home. Good news is she sleeps through anything!! I ca still watch movies smile.gif
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post #12077 of 29859 Old 06-08-2014, 12:14 PM
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If your avr has the ability to set the distances for 2 subs then that would work, if not then I would suggest either going both wired or both wireless. The dimension you gave for another sub is pointless...nothing that small is going to come close to keeping up with the XS30.

I'll check my avr if it can. And I know it won't come close to the XS30se but I was meaning as far as helping out that null at all. Not sure if there's an enclosure for a 8 or 10" sub to fit in those two spots or not.

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post #12078 of 29859 Old 06-08-2014, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by mijotter View Post

I'll check my avr if it can. And I know it won't come close to the XS30se but I was meaning as far as helping out that null at all. Not sure if there's an enclosure for a 8 or 10" sub to fit in those two spots or not.

The SC-1222-K doesn't have separate subwoofer distance settings. The same signal is output from both subwoofer 1 and subwoofer 2 pre-outs. This will not work without a mini-dsp.
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post #12079 of 29859 Old 06-08-2014, 05:31 PM
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I'll check my avr if it can. And I know it won't come close to the XS30se but I was meaning as far as helping out that null at all. Not sure if there's an enclosure for a 8 or 10" sub to fit in those two spots or not.

A small cube might help with that. Check back about 20(?) pages. I think it was bear123 that showed how a small polk sub helped with a null not unlike yours.

Tom V.
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post #12080 of 29859 Old 06-08-2014, 06:12 PM
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Congrats to Gus and Brian on the new additions!

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post #12081 of 29859 Old 06-08-2014, 06:14 PM
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A small cube might help with that. Check back about 20(?) pages. I think it was bear123 that showed how a small polk sub helped with a null not unlike yours.

Tom V.
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Maybe try something like a def tech sc2000 or 4000. You can find them at about half list price if you look around. They have pretty good output for their size in the 30-35hz to around 90hz. Might be able to fill the null with one or two of them.

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post #12082 of 29859 Old 06-08-2014, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mijotter View Post

I'll check my avr if it can. And I know it won't come close to the XS30se but I was meaning as far as helping out that null at all. Not sure if there's an enclosure for a 8 or 10" sub to fit in those two spots or not.

You can build a couple inexpensive sealed sub 12" subs using the infinity reference driver. 2cf cab and a Inuke 1000dsp would power both of them.

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post #12083 of 29859 Old 06-08-2014, 07:06 PM
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You may have an addiction, but you can never have too many subs. biggrin.gif

I didn't sleep at all the night after the day I ordered my other two XV15SEs, did I do the right thing, and yes you're right clim I am an addict. biggrin.gif I just ordered two 35' LC-1 analog sub cable from BJC and a Y splitter. Will it matter that the front two in each corner are hooked with 12' LC-1 and the rears will be 35'? I'm thinking it wont matter as these cable have very low capacitance and are very suitable for long runs. I was tempted to buy from Cables for Less but every cable I have and use no matter what configuration is from BJC and I know they are hand made and terminated here in the USA. I was planning out some placement options and it's tempting to place the rear two near field as end table at the MLP, that's why I bought the 35' lengths because I know I will try and keep each sub pretty close in distance to the MLP. What would you reco with these two options my friend? I know Bear and Bass may have something to say as well regarding this, and you too Mike B. All the guilt of buying four identical subs is gone, thanks for the nod of approval Clim. TIA
Cheers Jeff
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post #12084 of 29859 Old 06-08-2014, 07:56 PM
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I didn't sleep at all the night after the day I ordered my other two XV15SEs, did I do the right thing, and yes you're right clim I am an addict. biggrin.gif I just ordered two 35' LC-1 analog sub cable from BJC and a Y splitter. Will it matter that the front two in each corner are hooked with 12' LC-1 and the rears will be 35'? I'm thinking it wont matter as these cable have very low capacitance and are very suitable for long runs. I was tempted to buy from Cables for Less but every cable I have and use no matter what configuration is from BJC and I know they are hand made and terminated here in the USA. I was planning out some placement options and it's tempting to place the rear two near field as end table at the MLP, that's why I bought the 35' lengths because I know I will try and keep each sub pretty close in distance to the MLP. What would you reco with these two options my friend? I know Bear and Bass may have something to say as well regarding this, and you too Mike B. All the guilt of buying four identical subs is gone, thanks for the nod of approval Clim. TIA
Cheers Jeff

Cable distance, when talking about your home, means practically nothing. Electricity flows at around 186,000 miles per second. The propagation delay between the two cables will be so incredibly miniscule.
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Onkyo TX-NR3009 - Emotiva XPA-2 300 WPC - Polk Audio RTiA9 Mains - CSiA6 Center - F/XiA6 Surrounds - Dual PSA XV-15se Subwoofers - Epson 5030UB Projector - Monoprice Multi-format 106" HD Gray screen - Samsung BD-F5900 3D Bluray - WDTV Live HD Media Player with 6TB External Storage - Nintendo Wii - XBox 360 - Logitech Harmony One, and custom DIY media console...
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post #12085 of 29859 Old 06-08-2014, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by climber07 View Post

Cable distance, when talking about your home, means practically nothing. Electricity flows at around 186,000 miles per second. The propagation delay between the two cables will be so incredibly miniscule.

I feel like a fool now, I should have known that, it happens more and more the older I get, 62 in 2 days:eek: THANKS
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post #12086 of 29859 Old 06-09-2014, 04:29 AM
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I know that I used a 12' cable for one sub and a 35' for the other and yeah, it didn't make a difference that I noticed.  I ended up keeping the phase exactly the same on both subs for the best response and output.  Only thing that made a bit of a difference in response was actually lowering the crossover a bit on the sub that is closer.  And not like down to 80-100 either, but just down a bit from full clockwise.  Also adjusting the gain after level matching can affect FR a lot.

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post #12087 of 29859 Old 06-09-2014, 05:52 AM
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Pulse server room timestamp please?  I am search challenged this morning...doing some fine tuning on the ole dual xv's

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post #12088 of 29859 Old 06-09-2014, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

Pulse server room timestamp please?  I am search challenged this morning...doing some fine tuning on the ole dual xv's

Hi bear123, no time stamp but its toward the end of the movie, Chapter 15.
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post #12089 of 29859 Old 06-09-2014, 10:18 AM
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Quantifying tactile effect of the subs

I was reading up this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1398473/measuring-the-tactile-feeling-of-your-sub-system) found in 'dominguez1' signature and is an interesting read.
I was wondering whether anyone has tried measuring the tactile feel, just for chuckles since there is some measurement uncertainty attached to it smile.gif

I downloaded the "SoundMeter" app by Smart Tools Co for android and used it in my Samsung S3. Here is a reference value I had at MLP, the phone was placed without any case on the couch at MLP. Some of the max levels I hit was on the War of the Worlds pod scenes (time: 58:20 and ~ 1:03:00) - the app showed a max about "7" on the modified Mercalli scale using the app. My subs should have been running about -8 dB from reference (MV ~ -18 dB and the subs were dialed in about 10 dB hot). I could have dialed the master volume even higher but given how much shaking there was in the living room I wanted to be sure the house will be in one piece at these levels. I will inch higher for the next demo session.

I also ran the calibration on the app and reduced the sensitivity value to 0 from ~ 5 so that the app picks up only the stronger vibrations instead of jumping around with a high sensitivity factor.

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post #12090 of 29859 Old 06-09-2014, 10:30 AM
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Since I received my XV15 "SE" upgrade drivers and amps, I am past the measuring phase. I am so happy with the power and response you could say I'm "tickled". The tactile feel and overall feel of the subs are so much improved that I may have to go back into the AVR and lower the gain a dB or two. I'm running 5 dB hotter (at -10 dB from -15 dB) now and wow is all I have to respond with. I also have not noticed any loss of bottom end on movies either. I actually think this new driver sounds better for movies as well.

From the initial comments made by Tom V, I was expecting subtle improvements that may or may not have been audible across the freq range. What I received, however, was totally opposite. It feels like they sent me the wrong parts. I actually worry about the cabinets now. eek.gif

Anyone on the fence about upgrading to the "SE" drivers and amps should take note. These are not subtle upgrade by any stretch of the imagination. They are big time upgrades. wink.gif

My hat's off to you Tom and Jim. Cudos and congratulations on a simply outstanding product. Now go get a couple of these to some reviewers so they can write some killer reviews. cool.gif

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