Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 406 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12151 of 31463 Old 06-10-2014, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Yea but think of it like this...for 500.00 you can upgrade to the Submersive jr. smile.gif

LOL. Actually, I really don't worry about the $500. I'm lazy and don't want to mess with swapping the drivers and amp out and shipping the old ones back. I'd rather just buy the whole package. I'll also state that I was initially looking at the Sub 2 and Gotham, but felt they were a bit pricey (understatement). After much research I trimmed my list down to the sealed Rythmik (which wasn't available for audition at the time), the XS30 and the SubMersive (I was also seriously looking at Funk Audio). While I was leaning toward the SubMersive, I just felt it would be a huge overkill for my needs and that is why I chose the XS30. Heck, I feel the XS30 is a huge overkill. I mean, how hard do I want my floors, walls and seat to shake? Yep, I'm probably in the minority here smile.gif.
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post #12152 of 31463 Old 06-10-2014, 04:55 PM
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LOL. Actually, I really don't worry about the $500. I'm lazy and don't want to mess with swapping the drivers and amp out and shipping the old ones back. I'd rather just buy the whole package. I'll also state that I was initially looking at the Sub 2 and Gotham, but felt they were a bit pricey (understatement). After much research I trimmed my list down to the sealed Rythmik (which wasn't available for audition at the time), the XS30 and the SubMersive (I was also seriously looking at Funk Audio). While I was leaning toward the SubMersive, I just felt it would be a huge overkill for my needs and that is why I chose the XS30. Heck, I feel the XS30 is a huge overkill. I mean, how hard do I want my floors, walls and seat to shake? Yep, I'm probably in the minority here smile.gif.

You're in bass denial brother. You're list contains some of the most powerful subwoofers in the world and you settled on the last expensive. Sub 2, seriously? Welcome to the fold. This is BAA (bass addicts anonymous).

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post #12153 of 31463 Old 06-10-2014, 05:13 PM
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^^ You got me chuckling. So true, climber ... so true. I actually had 10 subwoofers on my initial list. I tested the SB13-Ultra against the Hsu ULS-15 and surprisingly bought the Ultra (even though the Ultra was $500 more). But I'm a lot more anal when it comes to music. When I looked for a sub for my TV, I was looking for something that I would not want to sell or give away after a year. I couldn't audition the Sub 2 (no one in So. Cal had one at the time), but did audition the Sub 1 and the JL Audio F212 Fathom (they had that beautiful Gotham, but it wasn't hooked up). I'm fortunate in that I could afford just about any subwoofer, but common sense and value prevailed (as it usually does with me ... I have a Camaro instead of a Vet). Luckily for me and my wallet, the XS30 does precisely what I hoped it would do ... but I wouldn't be completely honest if I didn't say I wondered about those other subs from time to time. And I will always wonder about the SubMersive wink.gif

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post #12154 of 31463 Old 06-10-2014, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post

^^ You got me chuckling. So true, climber ... so true. I actually had 10 subwoofers on my initial list. I tested the SB13-Ultra against the Hsu ULS-15 and surprisingly bought the Ultra (even though the Ultra was $500 more). But I'm a lot more anal when it comes to music. When I looked for a sub for my TV, I was looking for something that I would not want to sell or give away after a year. I couldn't audition the Sub 2 (no one in So. Cal had one at the time), but did audition the Sub 1 and the JL Audio F212 Fathom (they had that beautiful Gotham, but it wasn't hooked up). I'm fortunate in that I could afford just about any subwoofer, but common sense and value prevailed (as it usually does with me ... I have a Camaro instead of a Vet). Luckily for me and my wallet, the XS30 does precisely what I hoped it would do ... but I wouldn't be completely honest if I didn't say I wondered about those other subs from time to time. And I will always wonder about the SubMersive wink.gif

I have a '14 SS and always wonder about the new Stingray LOL biggrin.gif

But I recently got to sit in one and my 6'4" frame just does not fit in there without my knees touching the steering wheel frown.gif

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post #12155 of 31463 Old 06-10-2014, 05:23 PM
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^^ Great car, jarretc! For you it's your height not fitting into a Vet. For me it is age. I'm not as nimble as I use to be, and every time I climb out of my brother's vet I thank God I bought the Camaro!

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post #12156 of 31463 Old 06-10-2014, 05:23 PM
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I think the issue with subwoofers is that there is a big learning curve, especially if you start frequenting forums.  I think there are big leaps in understanding that you gain as you go along.  I started with a passive 8" JBL HTiB sub.  The 10" Polk seemed like a large upgrade...flat to 38 Hz!  Then I thought all was well with my first real sub...PB1-2NSD.  Oh, but wait, the PB2000 came out two weeks later....ooops wait...dual subs is much better......and now I have dual PSA XV15se's.  Am I happy?  Indeed.  Is it the best subwoofer system that I can get for the money spent?  I think so.  I will likely be happy for quite some time.  However, a part of me realizes that there is still a little bit left to chase someday if I ever desire(As in I am not flat at 115 dB down to 15 Hz).  My single XS30 was amazing...but watching the same scenes at the same volume...the dual subs are a DRASTIC improvement.  These well built ID subs stop getting louder when they reach their limit and sometimes you just don't realize you are missing anything.  I am sure dual XS30's would have been a drastic improvement as well but like Dsrussell, I drew the line in the sand with what I spent on the dual XV's.  I would have to go with larger and more expensive subs to improve on what I have, and I am not willing to do that at this time.  

 

     For my -20 to -15 MV listening they exceed my needs.  I have 110 dB from 20 Hz to crossover, assuming my mic is accurate.  Output at 16 Hz with the 110 dB sweep is around 105, but I have hit 108.  I think that is not far off where I should be with a 3m avg distance to the subs.

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post #12157 of 31463 Old 06-10-2014, 05:38 PM
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^^ There really is a learning curve, bear. I never owned a subwoofer until my son bought me a BIC for my TV viewing many years ago for Christmas. Last year I spent over 4 months learning as much as I could by reading and auditioning. I felt the BIC was just fine for my needs for TV viewing, and was only looking for a sub to enhance my music system. Yeah, right. I hooked up the Ultra and Hsu and realized I was missing a lot of LFE movie content. I kept the Ultra for my living room and got the XS30 for my family room. And as you stated, there is a line that everyone draws. Sometimes that line gets a bit off-kilter, but a line nonetheless. Now, if I had a dedicated home theater, my choice may have been quite different.

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post #12158 of 31463 Old 06-10-2014, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
 

I think the issue with subwoofers is that there is a big learning curve, especially if you start frequenting forums.  I think there are big leaps in understanding that you gain as you go along.  I started with a passive 8" JBL HTiB sub.  The 10" Polk seemed like a large upgrade...flat to 38 Hz!  Then I thought all was well with my first real sub...PB1-2NSD.  Oh, but wait, the PB2000 came out two weeks later....ooops wait...dual subs is much better......and now I have dual PSA XV15se's.  Am I happy?  Indeed.  Is it the best subwoofer system that I can get for the money spent?  I think so.  I will likely be happy for quite some time.  However, a part of me realizes that there is still a little bit left to chase someday if I ever desire(As in I am not flat at 115 dB down to 15 Hz).  My single XS30 was amazing...but watching the same scenes at the same volume...the dual subs are a DRASTIC improvement.  

Well said Bear. I know exactly what you mean. I'm really happy with my dual XV15s but last night I found myself laying in bed thinking about getting quad XV15s. Then I had a reality check and said "maybe someday but not now." But I have to wonder about myself, I've had dual XV15s for six weeks and now I keep dreaming about quads. Will it never end? Don't answer that. ;)


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post #12159 of 31463 Old 06-10-2014, 05:40 PM
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Yeah I think the XV's are perfect for my main living room.  If I had a dedicated theater, I am pretty sure I would either get dual Captivator 2400's or more likely, an equivalent DIY setup.

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post #12160 of 31463 Old 06-10-2014, 05:47 PM
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Edited, I think what I posted was an error.

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post #12161 of 31463 Old 06-10-2014, 05:56 PM
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Well said Bear. I know exactly what you mean. I'm really happy with my dual XV15s but last night I found myself laying in bed thinking about getting quad XV15s. Then I had a reality check and said "maybe someday but not now." But I have to wonder about myself, I've had dual XV15s for six weeks and now I keep dreaming about quads. Will it never end? Don't answer that. wink.gif

The sickness never ends!!!!!!! Please let us know how quad 15's sound when you get them.

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post #12162 of 31463 Old 06-10-2014, 06:01 PM
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http://youtu.be/QULCgYt0xsc

Here is a short vid playing some music at +5. Note the phone in my speaker is distorting not the subs lol. 128db peaks at the LP, if I run the subs hotter I bet I can peg 130...wife came home and gave me the look...to be continued smile.gif

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post #12163 of 31463 Old 06-10-2014, 06:13 PM
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My single XS30 was amazing...but watching the same scenes at the same volume...the dual subs are a DRASTIC improvement.  These well built ID subs stop getting louder when they reach their limit and sometimes you just don't realize you are missing anything.  I am sure dual XS30's would have been a drastic improvement as well but like Dsrussell, I drew the line in the sand with what I spent on the dual XV's.

Yes, it has crossed my mind on more than one occasion to add an XS30se in my family room (I think it would mate well with the original), but there are complications. I'd either have to fish wires up through the wall and across the overhead plenum area and down another wall, or try out wireless (which I think would be a mistake). Needless to say that if I'm too lazy to disassemble, assemble, then box up and return drivers and amp, I'm not likely to play in the attic space and snake wires smile.gif.

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post #12164 of 31463 Old 06-10-2014, 07:33 PM
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The most eye opening experience was on the OHF Washington Monument Scene.  I never understood why so many people claimed that it was a great ULF scenes, one of the very best.  I was always much more impressed with WoTW pod scene, but I think that is because it has a wide range of bass, not just extremely low.  The OHF scene is almost all 16-25 and is not very loud in any other area.  So hitting my limits on this scene sounded ok but nothing WOW.  The dual XV15's totally changed the impact of the scene.  Of course, from a single XS30 to dual XV15se I probably have triple the output in this area.  My goal, once I learned more, was to make sure that I could play all content down to 15/16 Hz without compression at my preferred listening level.

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post #12165 of 31463 Old 06-10-2014, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

The most eye opening experience was on the OHF Washington Monument Scene.  I never understood why so many people claimed that it was a great ULF scenes, one of the very best.  I was always much more impressed with WoTW pod scene, but I think that is because it has a wide range of bass, not just extremely low.  The OHF scene is almost all 16-25 and is not very loud in any other area.  So hitting my limits on this scene sounded ok but nothing WOW.  The dual XV15's totally changed the impact of the scene.  Of course, from a single XS30 to dual XV15se I probably have triple the output in this area.  My goal, once I learned more, was to make sure that I could play all content down to 15/16 Hz without compression at my preferred listening level.

What movie is this?
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post #12166 of 31463 Old 06-10-2014, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post

The most eye opening experience was on the OHF Washington Monument Scene.  I never understood why so many people claimed that it was a great ULF scenes, one of the very best.  I was always much more impressed with WoTW pod scene, but I think that is because it has a wide range of bass, not just extremely low.  The OHF scene is almost all 16-25 and is not very loud in any other area.  So hitting my limits on this scene sounded ok but nothing WOW.  The dual XV15's totally changed the impact of the scene.  Of course, from a single XS30 to dual XV15se I probably have triple the output in this area.  My goal, once I learned more, was to make sure that I could play all content down to 15/16 Hz without compression at my preferred listening level.

Your really still not even coming close to experiencing this scene. It wasn't until I got my second xs30 and was strong to 10hz that I began to realize the impact of this scene. The major points if this scene are <15hz
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post #12168 of 31463 Old 06-11-2014, 09:43 PM
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Quote:Originally Posted by bear123 

The most eye opening experience was on the OHF Washington Monument Scene.  I never understood why so many people claimed that it was a great ULF scenes, one of the very best.  I was always much more impressed with WoTW pod scene, but I think that is because it has a wide range of bass, not just extremely low.  The OHF scene is almost all 16-25 and is not very loud in any other area.  So hitting my limits on this scene sounded ok but nothing WOW.  The dual XV15's totally changed the impact of the scene.  Of course, from a single XS30 to dual XV15se I probably have triple the output in this area.  My goal, once I learned more, was to make sure that I could play all content down to 15/16 Hz without compression at my preferred listening level.


Your really still not even coming close to experiencing this scene. It wasn't until I got my second xs30 and was strong to 10hz that I began to realize the impact of this scene. The major points if this scene are <15hz
I cannot wait until I add a second XS30es, all this talk about duals and quads is driving me nuts!!!!

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post #12169 of 31463 Old 06-11-2014, 09:49 PM
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I cannot wait until I add a second XS30es, all this talk about duals and quads is driving me nuts!!!!
Don't forget about the triples...130db capability
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post #12170 of 31463 Old 06-11-2014, 10:11 PM
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Don't forget about the triples...130db capability

Please stop!!! My buddy keeps telling me I should get 4, one for each corner. I think I will be happy with 2 though, I hope.

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post #12171 of 31463 Old 06-11-2014, 11:55 PM
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Your really still not even coming close to experiencing this scene. It wasn't until I got my second xs30 and was strong to 10hz that I began to realize the impact of this scene. The major points if this scene are <15hz
I think dual XS30's would have been a big improvement on this scene as well..it was just beyond what I was willing to spend. However, I have to disagree with you on what frequencies really create a lot of impact. After all that I have read, learned, and experienced, I believe being flat to 10 Hz is giving great capability in the region we can feel and notice a lot more: above 15 Hz. That particular scene(OHF Washington Monument) is centered very strongly right around 20 Hz if I remember from the spectrogram. Although something may change my opinion/belief in this area at some point, I can't help but recall instances in which very experienced home theater buffs grade ported caps as playing deeper than Submersives on famous ULF scenes(which they obviously don't) when the testing is blind. I think the effects of 15+ are order of magnitudes stronger than what we perceive below this region, to the point where it renders those frequencies negligible in comparison. This was even noted with two Caps vs three submersives, so I don't think there was any unfair advantage(perhaps in favor of the Submersives if anything)

I would have liked to have gotten dual XS30's, but I still believe that dual XV's, with more output 16-25 Hz, give a stronger performance than sealed subs(only on certain content), even when the scene includes content well below 15 Hz. I think the XS30 maintained better composure when pushed to its limits..I never noticed it stumble. Ported subs seem much easier to really notice when pushed past their limits.

I think I would have to demo a reference capable system down to single digits with single digit scenes, and then do LPF at 15 to see what change, if any, can be noticed.

Last edited by bear123; 06-12-2014 at 12:12 AM.
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post #12172 of 31463 Old 06-12-2014, 03:13 AM
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Bear or anyone following these directions i'm not finding my umik-1 mic under step 5 or 6....
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Mercury - There should have been a pdf guide from where you downloaded the REW software on HTShack. One of the primary reasons why the mic does not show up is because it is being used by another computer resource. That pdf guide does a very good walkthrough and setup checklist. Please follow all the steps in that guide, it should help you.

EDIT:
Look here, there are links to help with the setup.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...ease-read.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury View Post
Bear or anyone following these directions i'm not finding my umik-1 mic under step 5 or 6....
thanks-

http://www.minidsp.com/applications/...dmi-on-windows
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Last edited by flydeep; 06-12-2014 at 12:26 PM. Reason: More info
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post #12174 of 31463 Old 06-12-2014, 12:48 PM
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REW's learning curve is steep. It took me several days to figure out and I'm still not 100% sure it's configured properly. I ran into a few anomalies. My biggest issue was that Windows wouldn't recognize the UMIK (I didn't use a HDMI so the ASIO driver set up doesn't apply) and none of the other guides I found addressed how to work around it. I believe I'm able to take good measurements up to 200 hz, but for some reason the SPL meter is way off for the higher frequencies (confirmed by use of another SPL meter).

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post #12175 of 31463 Old 06-12-2014, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Don't forget about the triples...130db capability

Hi bass81,

We have been going back and re-doing the charts like you recommended a while back. Let me know what you think..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #12176 of 31463 Old 06-12-2014, 02:11 PM
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Tom,
I have been meaning to email you about the new triple xs30se's. It has been almost two weeks since I set them up and they are now definitely sounding much better than day 1. A simple naive way to explain this would be, a drum was sounding smooth on day 1 and now it is hitting like a hammer- sharp and no reverberations. The older XS30's did not exhibit this behavior even after about 4 weeks and it had a smoother signal decay. My wife is complaining now more than before about the boom boom

The se drivers seem to be of different caliber compared to the previous gen. Also, now I have to dial down by about 3-4 dB on the AVR SW level to achieve similar perceptible bass as day 1. Bottomline, I am thinking if you do the curves after the subs have opened up, you may get more output and probably a different frequency response characteristic. I haven't had the time to setup and do REW again but will update once I get some similar comparisons.

About the tactile feel you may recall that I was all worried since the last time. Now even at my non-nearfield placement of subs they are hitting hard and sharp that I may actually prefer this setup. Music sounds great and with movies, my heart rate usually goes up after a 15 min demo I get every morning before heading to work, an excellent caffeine substitute effect.

One cool thing I noticed was, when I turn off my amps so that the mains are quiet and subs are running, my shelfs from far end of the large living room rattle even at -30 db AVR MV (subs running 7 dB hot).

More to come once I optimize the setup and placement ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Hi bass81,

We have been going back and re-doing the charts like you recommended a while back. Let me know what you think..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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Fronts: KEF Q900's, KEF 600c, Rear: Mirage OMD-15's, SW: PSA triple XS30se+miniDSP
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post #12177 of 31463 Old 06-12-2014, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flydeep View Post
Mercury - There should have been a pdf guide from where you downloaded the REW software on HTShack. One of the primary reasons why the mic does not show up is because it is being used by another computer resource. That pdf guide does a very good walkthrough and setup checklist. Please follow all the steps in that guide, it should help you.

EDIT:
Look here, there are links to help with the setup.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...ease-read.html
thanks flydeep. ill give a read. that said some research has taken me to the fact that my laptop may not support more then to channel output.

problem??
((maybe a different hook-up instead of HDMI??

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post #12178 of 31463 Old 06-12-2014, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Hi bass81,

We have been going back and re-doing the charts like you recommended a while back. Let me know what you think..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Thanks for that Tom!! I think it shows output capabilities much more clearly.
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post #12179 of 31463 Old 06-12-2014, 06:08 PM
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Thanks for that Tom!! I think it shows output capabilities much more clearly.
Thanks. I debated on including 100hz but did so for several reasons.

1)This maintains the same consistency for each frequency window (three measurements points each being 1/3rd octave apart).

2)A fair percentage of subwoofers users do incorporate crossover points higher than 80hz. I'd say 8-10%(ish) in my experiences.

3)Even if you use the common 80hz crossover in your receiver it is only a gradually slope, not a "brick wall". So 100hz will only be filtered by approximately 4dB(12dB slope) to 8dB(24dB slope). In either case, the 100hz performance would still have audible significance

4)The LFE channel has a bandwidth of 3hz to 120hz(in this context). This is not altered by the crossover points discussed above.

I also had more data from a test session Jim did on 6/6/14 for all the Power-X stuff. This gave me 3 sessions in the "cold" and 3 in warm/hot. Instead of trying to figure out how to most accurately average it all I just used the 3 warm/hot sessions and adjusted our CEA-2010 stuff accordingly. I can't say for certain way but when we measure in the cold we'll see (about) one decibel more at most frequencies. It may be the amp staying colder, something with our mic(s), something about air density, humidity, barometric pressure, or a few other things I'm trying to isolate. Best guess at this point is it will likely end up being a combination of several of these.

But just going with the warmer stuff (say 75 to 90f) will most likely correlate best with Josh, Brent, others, measuring because let's face it....not many guys are going to drag ten thousand dollars of test gear outside when its 45-55f.. We do most springs because we have SO MUCH stuff we need to get measured from each winter.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #12180 of 31463 Old 06-12-2014, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flydeep View Post
Tom,
I have been meaning to email you about the new triple xs30se's. It has been almost two weeks since I set them up and they are now definitely sounding much better than day 1. A simple naive way to explain this would be, a drum was sounding smooth on day 1 and now it is hitting like a hammer- sharp and no reverberations. The older XS30's did not exhibit this behavior even after about 4 weeks and it had a smoother signal decay. My wife is complaining now more than before about the boom boom

The se drivers seem to be of different caliber compared to the previous gen. Also, now I have to dial down by about 3-4 dB on the AVR SW level to achieve similar perceptible bass as day 1. Bottomline, I am thinking if you do the curves after the subs have opened up, you may get more output and probably a different frequency response characteristic. I haven't had the time to setup and do REW again but will update once I get some similar comparisons.

About the tactile feel you may recall that I was all worried since the last time. Now even at my non-nearfield placement of subs they are hitting hard and sharp that I may actually prefer this setup. Music sounds great and with movies, my heart rate usually goes up after a 15 min demo I get every morning before heading to work, an excellent caffeine substitute effect.

One cool thing I noticed was, when I turn off my amps so that the mains are quiet and subs are running, my shelfs from far end of the large living room rattle even at -30 db AVR MV (subs running 7 dB hot).

More to come once I optimize the setup and placement ...

Hi Flydeep,

Thank you for the update. This is ONE of several things I forgot to have Jim measure last week during his 6/6/14 session. I most definitely want to try a brand new driver against a well worn unit. I don't expect to see much but we have been getting so many testimonials like this one....it is peaking my curiously. We (me) also forgot some orientation checks(for trips opposed) and some off axis stuff too. So we'll (weather permitting) set up again soon.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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