Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 412 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #12331 of 29837 Old 06-20-2014, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by hmunster2 View Post
Thanks, Tom
If curiosity gets the best of you and you have to try it....just keep the volume levels on the low to moderate side of things. Real music(not the "bass to kill your subwoofer" junk) really won't hurt anything. We had a customer plug the port on his XV30 a while back with interesting results. He said something about the subwoofer sounding more like a "woofer"?



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post #12332 of 29837 Old 06-20-2014, 10:24 AM
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nice one
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post #12333 of 29837 Old 06-20-2014, 10:54 AM
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man u guys got me thinking upgrade
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post #12334 of 29837 Old 06-20-2014, 11:11 AM
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Hi all,

Josh will be measuring a new XV15se before too long so I figured posting our in house data on it won't hurt. I believe this is only the warm weather tests averaged but I will need to triple check that. Cold weather can lead to 1-2dB more output.

16 / 97.2
20 / 107.5
25 / 110.7
31 / 112.9
40 / 114.2
50 / 116.5
63 / 116.7
80 / 117
100 / 116.3

16-100 / 113.7

this is all 2m/rms. Add 9dB to scale to 1m/peak

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post #12335 of 29837 Old 06-20-2014, 12:50 PM
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Tom:

Which sub model would you recommend for a music only 2.1 system? Room is 10' wide, 9' high and 12' deep, with 36" tall windows on 1 sidewall, and full-length mirrored doors along another (pretty live room acoustically, but it does have carpet and a massive media shelf on the back wall behind the speakers).

Speakers will be Adam Audio Artist 5 monitors on 42" pro audio stands. Desk/listening position is right in the middle of the room. My plan is to eventually use REW and a miniDSP 2x4 to do some EQing of the sub.

Thoughts?

Thank you.
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post #12336 of 29837 Old 06-20-2014, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IanS View Post
Tom:

Which sub model would you recommend for a music only 2.1 system? Room is 10' wide, 9' high and 12' deep, with 36" tall windows on 1 sidewall, and full-length mirrored doors along another (pretty live room acoustically, but it does have carpet and a massive media shelf on the back wall behind the speakers).

Speakers will be Adam Audio Artist 5 monitors on 42" pro audio stands. Desk/listening position is right in the middle of the room. My plan is to eventually use REW and a miniDSP 2x4 to do some EQing of the sub.

Thoughts?

Thank you.
Hello Ian,

For a smaller room like that, the XS15se would be a very good fit. Which preamp / receiver will you be using in the system? Hopefully something that will all you to highpass the monitors?

Tom V.
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post #12337 of 29837 Old 06-20-2014, 01:32 PM
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post #12338 of 29837 Old 06-20-2014, 02:26 PM
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After seeing the review of the XV30se on Databass I wanted to compare the size of that sub with others. I started putting together a bunch of rough boxes in CAD. Oh my, how my tiny PL-200 is dwarfed. I'll try to upload something when I can.
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post #12339 of 29837 Old 06-20-2014, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
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All in:
Looks like you removed the eq boost down low.
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post #12340 of 29837 Old 06-20-2014, 03:42 PM
 
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Quote:
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All in:


that looks like a pretty smooth sounding room bear.. is that what its saying.. 3 to 4 db range from 20 hz to 100 tuff to get flatter than that I bet..


cheers
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post #12341 of 29837 Old 06-20-2014, 03:57 PM
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Looks like you removed the eq boost down low.
Nope. It removes itself on sweeps past 100-105 dB due to compression.
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post #12342 of 29837 Old 06-20-2014, 04:10 PM
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Lower level FR:
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post #12343 of 29837 Old 06-20-2014, 04:24 PM
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What does a 115db sweep look like?
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post #12344 of 29837 Old 06-20-2014, 04:28 PM
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THAT...is a thing of beauty Bear.
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post #12345 of 29837 Old 06-20-2014, 04:40 PM
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I don't think I can get a very clean 115 sweep. I would probably only get more output from 50HZ up, and not a full 5 dB. Also my mains are compressing alot on the 110 sweep, likely due to low power from my AVR at that point. (see sig)

Below 30 Hz, above 110 db is pretty much fully compressed.
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post #12346 of 29837 Old 06-20-2014, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmunster2 View Post
Do you mean by your emphatic No that this would damage the sub?
Sorry my friend if I came off a bit strong with the emphatic NO, as Tom said you see how problematic that would be. That's one reason no port plugs are shipped with the vented subwoofers
Cheers Jeff
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post #12347 of 29837 Old 06-20-2014, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Hello Ian,

For a smaller room like that, the XS15se would be a very good fit. Which preamp / receiver will you be using in the system? Hopefully something that will all you to highpass the monitors?

Tom V.
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Thanks. XS15se is what I was thinking, but I thought I should ask. I guess I haven't thought through the preamp properly. I was planning on using the pre-outs from a Creek 4330 Integrated straight in to a miniDSP 2x4, and out from there to my powered monitors and your sub.

Would I be able to use the miniDSP as a highpass for the monitors? If not, what is a reasonably priced receiver/preamp for 2.1 audio with good mains/sub control?
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post #12348 of 29837 Old 06-20-2014, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
I would place them on a roughly 24" high riser, directly to either side of your chair, firing directly at your face. Dual XV15se earmuffs!!

On a serious note, I would put one on each side of your two main seating positions as end tables.
Bear I think you're right. I have the room to spread the four subs out and reap the benefits of a smooth FR and non localization, if I wanted an XV30F I would have bought one. Now that all four are here and spread out they just look so good, I'm going to run the two 35' BJC sub cables tonight and begin the calibration. Seriously what are you're thoughts of the stacking and front firing dual XV15SEs?
Cheers Jeff
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post #12349 of 29837 Old 06-20-2014, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IanS View Post
Thanks. XS15se is what I was thinking, but I thought I should ask. I guess I haven't thought through the preamp properly. I was planning on using the pre-outs from a Creek 4330 Integrated straight in to a miniDSP 2x4, and out from there to my powered monitors and your sub.

Would I be able to use the miniDSP as a highpass for the monitors? If not, what is a reasonably priced receiver/preamp for 2.1 audio with good mains/sub control?
I'm thinking Outlaw 975 pre-pro.

http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/975.html
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post #12350 of 29837 Old 06-20-2014, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IanS View Post
Thanks. XS15se is what I was thinking, but I thought I should ask. I guess I haven't thought through the preamp properly. I was planning on using the pre-outs from a Creek 4330 Integrated straight in to a miniDSP 2x4, and out from there to my powered monitors and your sub.

Would I be able to use the miniDSP as a highpass for the monitors? If not, what is a reasonably priced receiver/preamp for 2.1 audio with good mains/sub control?
You should be good.

http://www.minidsp.com/applications/...n-with-minidsp

Also, the artist 5 monitors have built in "shelving" options that may work to attenuate the deeper frequencies too. I'm not sure what the specifics are though.

Tom V.
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post #12351 of 29837 Old 06-20-2014, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Seriously what are you're thoughts of the stacking and front firing dual XV15SEs?
Cheers Jeff
I don't think the orientation of the driver affects much, although near field, for the extra tactile effect, firing them sideways into the chairs may increase the effect.

I would place them on each side of your two recliners, so each seat has a nearfield sub, as endtables. Experiment if side firing them into the chairs makes a difference. If your FR is good with them here I think that would work well.
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post #12352 of 29837 Old 06-20-2014, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
I don't think the orientation of the driver affects much, although near field, for the extra tactile effect, firing them sideways into the chairs may increase the effect.

I would place them on each side of your two recliners, so each seat has a nearfield sub, as endtables. Experiment if side firing them into the chairs makes a difference. If your FR is good with them here I think that would work well.
Bear, they are just that, thoughts, and you know what happens when I start thinking and going into my head alone...DANGER I abandoned the stacking and front firing idea and have the two rear subs placed behind and to the L&R of the MLP at about 11' apart, very similar to my front two corner loaded subs. Distances are almost all equal to my seating position, this should make for a very smooth FR and hopefully easier calibration and integration to the rest of my rig. That's why I come here and post my thoughts before doing them, I get a pretty good perspective of what not to do, thanks for all your help. I want to get these four all dialed in and hopefully when the new speakers are ready I should be good to go. Right now I'm using some inexpensive monitors that do sound good only because of the subs, the XV15SEs make everything sound good, well almost everything
Cheers my man, Jeff
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post #12353 of 29837 Old 06-21-2014, 12:14 PM
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Sorry my friend if I came off a bit strong with the emphatic NO, as Tom said you see how problematic that would be. That's one reason no port plugs are shipped with the vented subwoofers
Cheers Jeff
That was the correct answer though.. If someone altered one of our subs in this manner(sealing a ported or porting a sealed)....and popped in something like War of the Worlds at loud levels things could get messy.

Thanks to Jeff and all the others here who take the time to answer these questions too. I can usually stop by a couple times a day but sometimes I will look and there are 3-4 new PAGES of posts. So I'm sure I miss questions more often than not.

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post #12354 of 29837 Old 06-21-2014, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
That was the correct answer though.. If someone altered one of our subs in this manner(sealing a ported or porting a sealed)....and popped in something like War of the Worlds at loud levels things could get messy.

Thanks to Jeff and all the others here who take the time to answer these questions too. I can usually stop by a couple times a day but sometimes I will look and there are 3-4 new PAGES of posts. So I'm sure I miss questions more often than not.

Tom V.
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Tom, it is my pleasure to assist you and others with any questions that I have knowledge or experience with, I've been an early adopter of PSA products and many of my questions you or Jim have answered so now I'm able to convey that info to others and like you know I've had every one of your subs in my home except the XV30. You're welcome my friend.
Jeffrey Nordi
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post #12355 of 29837 Old 06-22-2014, 01:39 PM
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The search function doesn't seem to be working, so apologies on not being able to find the answer to my question on my own. Realizing I'm posting to a biased audience in this thread, I'd welcome any input:

Set up: Definitive Technology ProMonitor 1000s upfront, Def Tech ProSub 1000 (which I'm looking to replace). Center is a proCenter 1000, rears are proMonitor800s. Denon 1913 AVR.

Room: 14x22x9 with the room open to a stair well, a dining room and a hall way.

Use: Probably gets more use for TV than anything, time wise, but 2.1 stereo music listening is where I focus my attention. Obviously, digging deeper on the register when watching movies is something I'm hoping for.

Budget: was hoping for the $500 range, but as I indicate below, I could go up to $1000.

Smaller and higher quality fit and finish are important for WAF, but she is fine with the current DT sub, which isn't really a beauty, in my opinion.

I'm considering:
I've emailed with SVS and they recommended the PB1000. Merlin says the PB1000 or SB1000. Given my preference for musical performance over HT use, I thought about opting for the SB1000 over their advice, and since its smaller, I could maybe convince the wife to allow a second one in the room. 2x SB1000 is the priciest option I've considered, but sealed subs (tighter bass) and the small footprint appeal to me.

I've emailed Hsu and described my room, speakers and uses and the recommendation was the Hsu VTF-3 Mk4. My reservations are its size and the variable tuning will probably lead to me fiddling with it until my wife threatens my physical well being.

Lots of folks have recommended the Rythmik LV12R, and reviews seem to indicate that it is especially music friendly for a ported sub.

PSA recommended the xv15se, but I think that'll be just too massive; they said the PSA xs15 would also do well as long as I didn't want to play at extremely loud volumes.

Other options I should consider, or help picking among the choices presented is appreciated.
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post #12356 of 29837 Old 06-22-2014, 02:13 PM
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Well I have never used the XV15's without them so I can't compare, but I don't have any problem with the subs dancing around. Jim said this can sometimes happen at very high output levels on hardwood. I am sure no PSA owners ever turn their subs up very loud though so.........
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Originally Posted by DonnyKerabatsos View Post
The search function doesn't seem to be working, so apologies on not being able to find the answer to my question on my own. Realizing I'm posting to a biased audience in this thread, I'd welcome any input:

Set up: Definitive Technology ProMonitor 1000s upfront, Def Tech ProSub 1000 (which I'm looking to replace). Center is a proCenter 1000, rears are proMonitor800s. Denon 1913 AVR.

Room: 14x22x9 with the room open to a stair well, a dining room and a hall way.

Use: Probably gets more use for TV than anything, time wise, but 2.1 stereo music listening is where I focus my attention. Obviously, digging deeper on the register when watching movies is something I'm hoping for.

Budget: was hoping for the $500 range, but as I indicate below, I could go up to $1000.

Smaller and higher quality fit and finish are important for WAF, but she is fine with the current DT sub, which isn't really a beauty, in my opinion.

I'm considering:
I've emailed with SVS and they recommended the PB1000. Merlin says the PB1000 or SB1000. Given my preference for musical performance over HT use, I thought about opting for the SB1000 over their advice, and since its smaller, I could maybe convince the wife to allow a second one in the room. 2x SB1000 is the priciest option I've considered, but sealed subs (tighter bass) and the small footprint appeal to me.

I've emailed Hsu and described my room, speakers and uses and the recommendation was the Hsu VTF-3 Mk4. My reservations are its size and the variable tuning will probably lead to me fiddling with it until my wife threatens my physical well being.

Lots of folks have recommended the Rythmik LV12R, and reviews seem to indicate that it is especially music friendly for a ported sub.

PSA recommended the xv15se, but I think that'll be just too massive; they said the PSA xs15 would also do well as long as I didn't want to play at extremely loud volumes.

Other options I should consider, or help picking among the choices presented is appreciated.
Ah - the proverbial "what sub(s) should I buy scenario" - first let's look at your room dimensions - 2772 cubic feet + the undefined spaces you mention. Typical rule of thumb seems to be that sealed sub(s) are fine for <3000 cubic feet listening areas, ported for >3000 cubic feet - although you'll probably find arguments for sealed/ported regardless of room size.

"Use: Probably gets more use for TV than anything, time wise, but 2.1 stereo music listening is where I focus my attention. Obviously, digging deeper on the register when watching movies is something I'm hoping for."

You mention watching movies on TV - are you streaming via Netflix, Amazon, Vudu, etc, watching BluRays? The better the content source - the better any sub you purchase will be capable of reproducing the bass & LFE content. If you are just watching standard over the air, or cable/satellite content your subwoofers & speakers will be receiving a very compressed signal and your subwoofer output will be reduced significantly.

Size matters - if you are simply looking for a small subwoofer footprint - the dual SB1000 option may work well for you. Keep in mind that the main advantage of utilizing 2 or more subwoofers is to smooth the response in your room. Do you utilize measuring equipment, i.e. REW or Omnimac? If so that will be helpful in optimizing subwoofer placement. However you seem to hint at WAF issues - and to the extent that placement options are limited - it may not make sense to purchase two subwoofers if you are restricted in placement options.

Most participants in this thread will tell you to opt for as much woofage as you can afford, and as much WAF pushback as you can tolerate. All I can tell you is that after about 10 years of fumbling through an assortment of subwoofer(s) purchases I finally arrived at my current configuration of a PSA XS 30 + XS 15 in a room slightly smaller than yours (2447 cubic feet) with the ability to close the doors off to the rest of the house. You didn't mention typical listening volume and/or type of movie content, although you did mention 2.1 stereo preference for music. Virtually all of the sub options you mentioned will provide superior results to your current ProSub 1000 - my experience suggests that you purchase the most powerful sub your budget & WAF will tolerate, and think about adding a matching sub down the road once the budget/WAF absorb the initial purchase impact.
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post #12357 of 29837 Old 06-22-2014, 02:27 PM
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Donny: I concur with ggsantafe.

Your room size of approx. 2,800 cu.ft., with the addition of open areas to the dining room, hall and stairway indicates that you have a large size room to fill (3,000 - 5,000 cu. ft. is considered large). Any subwoofer will try to fill all those areas and I'm sorry to say that only the biggest subs are capable of doing that with any success. Looking for a small sub to accomplish that task simply won't get you there. The subs you've mentioned would be good for small rooms up to the lower level of a medium sized room (say 1,000 - 2,000 cu. ft.). Even at that size, satisfaction will depend upon how loud you listen to music and movies. Blu-ray movies can be the most demanding, but music requires more accuracy, and the louder you listen the more demanding it will be on the sub. I don't know if any single subwoofer in your price range will give you what you want, so you might think about multiples, perhaps one now and one when funds are available. Since I haven't auditioned any of those subs you've mentioned (even though I own a PSA sub and an SVS sub), I cannot give you a preference. BTW, the XS15se isn't very large.
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post #12358 of 29837 Old 06-22-2014, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonnyKerabatsos View Post

Room: 14x22x9 with the room open to a stair well, a dining room and a hall way.

Use: Probably gets more use for TV than anything, time wise, but 2.1 stereo music listening is where I focus my attention. Obviously, digging deeper on the register when watching movies is something I'm hoping for.

Budget: was hoping for the $500 range, but as I indicate below, I could go up to $1000.

Smaller and higher quality fit and finish are important for WAF...... but sealed subs (tighter bass) and the small footprint appeal to me.


PSA recommended the xv15se, but I think that'll be just too massive; they said the PSA xs15 would also do well as long as I didn't want to play at extremely loud volumes.
First, lets dispel a myth. I don't know where this comes from, but it sure seems to get repeated a lot. Sealed subs don't necessarily produce "tighter" bass than ported subs. The truth is, equivalent quality ported and sealed subs will sound just as good on music. I think the misconception occurs because when one is considering a subwoofer for music only, sealed is the natural choice. Not because they are better, tighter, crisper, more detailed, or any other false adjective, but because the larger size of a ported sub which provides much higher output in the 16-30 Hz region for movies, is not needed for a music only sub. So it is not that sealed are better for music, its that ported have an unnecessary output advantage in a lower octave, at the cost of larger size and higher price.


For this reason, if one desires a sub that sounds great on music, but also hits hard on movies, ported can be a better choice. So I think PSA is on the money with their suggestion of the XV15se: great on music, great on movies. The XS15 will also be great with music, and half as good with movies.


As far as size goes, the XV15 actually has a moderate size with a 17" dimension...much smaller than the VTF15 or FV15HP. Hsu's VTF-3 was also a good recommendation, but I think the XV15 will out perform it in your large room.
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post #12359 of 29837 Old 06-22-2014, 07:33 PM
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I really appreciate the thoughtful responses from the previous three posters.

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Originally Posted by ggsantafe View Post

You mention watching movies on TV - are you streaming via Netflix, Amazon, Vudu, etc, watching BluRays? The better the content source - the better any sub you purchase will be capable of reproducing the bass & LFE content. If you are just watching standard over the air, or cable/satellite content your subwoofers & speakers will be receiving a very compressed signal and your subwoofer output will be reduced significantly.
Most of time, cable TV is what's on, but we watch a fair amount of Netflix as well; however, when I'm looking to really have a home theater experience, particularly for action/sci-fi monies, we always go Blu-ray, and naturally that's where I really look to be impressed by my Home theater.

I do like to listen to music fairly loud when I can.

Bear123 - that's a very interesting point that I haven't heard about sealed vs. ported, but it actually makes quite a bit of sense.

Finally, I do not currently use any measuring equipment, other than the calibration mic that came with the AVR. WAF pretty well dictates the placement of the current sub, and even with a small foot print, placement of a second sub would pretty well be predetermined, regardless of any results of a sub crawl, etc. Current sub is against the wall (and next to the component cabinet) basically across from the MLP. a second sub would probably have to go either against the wall to the left of the MLP (across the room from the current sub position), or midway against the wall on the right side of the room (MLP and sub are along front and back walls).
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post #12360 of 29837 Old 06-22-2014, 07:53 PM
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I would go with the XV15se..you can also get in a nice real wood veneer for a upcharge.
I think this sub offers the best blend of music/home theater performance at a fairly compact size considering other ID subs on the market. You get a 30day free trial too fwiw.
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