Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 413 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #12361 of 29815 Old 06-22-2014, 09:14 PM
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another thing to point out as well, just because the xv15 is, well, a 15" don't assume it has a huge cabinet. i used to own an SVS pb10nsd, and truthfully, the XV15 that i have now is about the same size cabinet. maybe another inch or two taller, but just as long and wide. massive difference in sound quality though...especially the SE version. it is actually pretty much the perfect size for a nice end table near your couch. flip back through the pages and you can see what i'm talking about. a few pics of people using them as end tables, which may give you extra placement options...especially if you get one of the veneer finishes. just my $.02
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post #12362 of 29815 Old 06-23-2014, 04:48 AM
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Well I've joined the dual XS30 club, ordered the second sub this afternoon, it will be delivered on Friday morning so I'll have the whole weekend to play.
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post #12363 of 29815 Old 06-23-2014, 04:56 AM
 
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Well I've joined the dual XS30 club, ordered the second sub this afternoon, it will be delivered on Friday morning so I'll have the whole weekend to play.
Congrats. You will now know what everyone is raving about. Duals is the only way to have bass in your room
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post #12364 of 29815 Old 06-23-2014, 05:04 AM
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Congrats. You will now know what everyone is raving about. Duals is the only way to have bass in your room
Yep that seems to be the consensus, can't wait till the weekend.
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post #12365 of 29815 Old 06-23-2014, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by DonnyKerabatsos View Post
The search function doesn't seem to be working, so apologies on not being able to find the answer to my question on my own. Realizing I'm posting to a biased audience in this thread, I'd welcome any input:

Set up: Definitive Technology ProMonitor 1000s upfront, Def Tech ProSub 1000 (which I'm looking to replace). Center is a proCenter 1000, rears are proMonitor800s. Denon 1913 AVR.

Room: 14x22x9 with the room open to a stair well, a dining room and a hall way.

Use: Probably gets more use for TV than anything, time wise, but 2.1 stereo music listening is where I focus my attention. Obviously, digging deeper on the register when watching movies is something I'm hoping for.

Budget: was hoping for the $500 range, but as I indicate below, I could go up to $1000.

Smaller and higher quality fit and finish are important for WAF, but she is fine with the current DT sub, which isn't really a beauty, in my opinion.

I'm considering:
I've emailed with SVS and they recommended the PB1000. Merlin says the PB1000 or SB1000. Given my preference for musical performance over HT use, I thought about opting for the SB1000 over their advice, and since its smaller, I could maybe convince the wife to allow a second one in the room. 2x SB1000 is the priciest option I've considered, but sealed subs (tighter bass) and the small footprint appeal to me.

I've emailed Hsu and described my room, speakers and uses and the recommendation was the Hsu VTF-3 Mk4. My reservations are its size and the variable tuning will probably lead to me fiddling with it until my wife threatens my physical well being.

Lots of folks have recommended the Rythmik LV12R, and reviews seem to indicate that it is especially music friendly for a ported sub.

PSA recommended the xv15se, but I think that'll be just too massive; they said the PSA xs15 would also do well as long as I didn't want to play at extremely loud volumes.

Other options I should consider, or help picking among the choices presented is appreciated.

Couple quick thoughts.

1)From what I can gather on your DT sub I don't think you'll consider the PB1000 a huge upgrade----especially with music at louder volume levels.

2)The Xv15se and XS15se have very similar output capabilities in the mid and upper bass. ^0hz to 100hz is within 0.5dB or so for example. So for most music, you'll have a ton of headroom with either choice. The biggest difference between the XV15se and the XS15se will be the output capabilities in the 16-35hz range. In your room environment the extension capabilities would probably be very close.

I would estimate the XS15se has roughly 3x the headroom of the DT 1000 subs (7.5 to 10dB more output).

You will very likely be 100% happy with the XS15se but if you had the XV15se and XS15se in the room for comparison...I bet you would lean slightly toward the XV15se. This is particularly true if you really cranked action oriented DVDs.


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post #12366 of 29815 Old 06-23-2014, 06:24 PM
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Well, I have been doing some messing around with my subwoofers and I have to say that after doing some tweaks the difference between my XV15 and my XV15SE is much more apparent than it was before. I still can't pull the trigger on the upgrade kit for my XV15 right now (lawn tractor died and had to buy a new one) but hopefully I can soon.

To anyone thinking about whether or not they should buy a XV15SE I can't state just how good these subs sound. The XV15 itself still sounds great as well but this new SE version is pretty much incredible (especially at the price point they're at).
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post #12367 of 29815 Old 06-23-2014, 07:36 PM
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Where is everyone, seems a little dead around here, I quess everybody is too busy listening to their subwoofers. Well I finally got all four XV15SEs hooked up and placed, will do some calibrating tonight and post my thoughts. One thing I have to say is my front two V15SEs are sounding better and better everyday. I have the othe two behind the MLP about the same distance to MLP as the front two, I think putting them together behind the MLP will be more or a handicap than spreading them out and letting them breathe so to speak. The house should be rocking If anybody's on the fence with the XV15SE climb over it
Cheers Jeff
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post #12368 of 29815 Old 06-23-2014, 11:11 PM
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Followed these forums a couple years ago when I bought my outlaw lfm-1-ex. Always wanted to try duals so I snagged a couple SVS PB12-nsd's, but EVERYTHING I read says there is more to be bad. Long story short, dual XV15se's coming my way..... Curious to see how these stack up.
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post #12369 of 29815 Old 06-24-2014, 05:19 AM
 
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
Followed these forums a couple years ago when I bought my outlaw lfm-1-ex. Always wanted to try duals so I snagged a couple SVS PB12-nsd's, but EVERYTHING I read says there is more to be bad. Long story short, dual XV15se's coming my way..... Curious to see how these stack up.
Congrats!! They blow away the pb12's IMHO

Gonna be one happy camper
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post #12370 of 29815 Old 06-24-2014, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
Congrats!! They blow away the pb12's IMHO

Gonna be one happy camper
I hope so. The numbers Tom V. Is showing certainly are impressive, and with the free trials I figured there is nothing to lose. The wait is excruciating though!
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post #12371 of 29815 Old 06-24-2014, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
Followed these forums a couple years ago when I bought my outlaw lfm-1-ex. Always wanted to try duals so I snagged a couple SVS PB12-nsd's, but EVERYTHING I read says there is more to be bad. Long story short, dual XV15se's coming my way..... Curious to see how these stack up.
If you still have the 1ex try a single XV15se against that as time allows. Then try the duals against the duals. Be sure you spend some time with your favorite music too. I know the tendency is to grab War of the Worlds with every new subwoofer purchase...but in some regards a music listening session can be just as important..

Also, Anyone waiting on a shipping notice should see something within 1-2 business days. We have a large quantity of amplifiers inbound at the moment. They left Chicago yesterday for Cleveland. And I'm hoping they'll be here tomorrow.

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post #12372 of 29815 Old 06-24-2014, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
Followed these forums a couple years ago when I bought my outlaw lfm-1-ex. Always wanted to try duals so I snagged a couple SVS PB12-nsd's, but EVERYTHING I read says there is more to be bad. Long story short, dual XV15se's coming my way..... Curious to see how these stack up.
Good thinking, going duals with the XV15s is by far the best way to go (unless you are lucky enough to go with trips or quads). I went with a single at first and was very happy but once I got the duals set up I have been blown away at the sound quality, power, and over all impact that they have had on my HT. Brian Fineberg said once you have duals you will never look back and he was absolutely right.

I also want to second what Tom said about listening to your favorite music with these subs. Everyday I find myself sitting back and being amazed at the sound quality these subs are providing with music. And I'm not just saying that, I really mean it. These subs do music justice.
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post #12373 of 29815 Old 06-24-2014, 10:25 AM
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Where is everyone, seems a little dead around here, I quess everybody is too busy listening to their subwoofers.
Just patiently waiting for my sub woofer at this point, and probably a few in the same boat. Seems Tom must have outdone himself and they have been selling like hot cakes. The best things always seem to require a bit of a wait
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post #12374 of 29815 Old 06-24-2014, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
If you still have the 1ex try a single XV15se against that as time allows. Then try the duals against the duals. Be sure you spend some time with your favorite music too. I know the tendency is to grab War of the Worlds with every new subwoofer purchase...but in some regards a music listening session can be just as important..

Also, Anyone waiting on a shipping notice should see something within 1-2 business days. We have a large quantity of amplifiers inbound at the moment. They left Chicago yesterday for Cleveland. And I'm hoping they'll be here tomorrow.

Tom V.
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Kinda tempted to upgrade my order to XV30se's to avoid this wait..... I'm pathetic
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post #12375 of 29815 Old 06-24-2014, 11:49 AM
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Kinda tempted to upgrade my order to XV30se's to avoid this wait..... I'm pathetic
You've got it bad man...
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Onkyo TX-NR3009 - Emotiva XPA-2 300 WPC - Polk Audio RTiA9 Mains - CSiA6 Center - F/XiA6 Surrounds - Dual PSA XV-15se Subwoofers - Epson 5030UB Projector - Monoprice Multi-format 106" HD Gray screen - Samsung BD-F5900 3D Bluray - WDTV Live HD Media Player with 6TB External Storage - Nintendo Wii - XBox 360 - Logitech Harmony One, and custom DIY media console...
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You've got it bad man...
Is that because he buttered his pants?....LOL
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there is more to be Had.
This is always the case. Dual XVs, dual, XS30s, dual JTR S2, dual JTR OS, 8x18" IB etc........

There is ALWAYS more

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post #12378 of 29815 Old 06-24-2014, 03:02 PM
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Kinda tempted to upgrade my order to XV30se's to avoid this wait..... I'm pathetic
Bah c'mon you can do better than that. Order dual Traix's.

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post #12379 of 29815 Old 06-24-2014, 03:05 PM
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First, lets dispel a myth. I don't know where this comes from, but it sure seems to get repeated a lot. Sealed subs don't necessarily produce "tighter" bass than ported subs. The truth is, equivalent quality ported and sealed subs will sound just as good on music. I think the misconception occurs because when one is considering a subwoofer for music only, sealed is the natural choice. Not because they are better, tighter, crisper, more detailed, or any other false adjective, but because the larger size of a ported sub which provides much higher output in the 16-30 Hz region for movies, is not needed for a music only sub. So it is not that sealed are better for music, its that ported have an unnecessary output advantage in a lower octave, at the cost of larger size and higher price.
bear: Is it really a myth? This thought pattern came from many professional reviewers, some as long as a decade ago or more. It came from reviewers who's number one concern is with music, and usually stereo and not home theater. Obviously, the music one plays will indeed matter. It's a lot different from having parties with music going, or music as a background than it is with critical listening. These reviewers critically listen to their music and give their thoughts on what a subwoofer gives, takes away or over enhances. It may indeed be minute to most people, but to them it is important. Music is extremely personal, unlike the LFE from movies. There is also a myth that music rarely if ever goes very deep. In most cases, that is correct, but even a piano is cable of 27 Hz. Pipe organs capable of 16 Hz, and Synthesizers even lower. Again, it depends upon one's catalog of music and what one wants a subwoofer to do for them.

That being said, subwoofers have changed over the years. Inexpensive ported subs gave a lot of bang for the buck. In today's era of high quality sealed and ported designs, the differences have diminished. However, if I can hear a distinct difference between high quality sealed subs (I've auditioned several, and three in my home), I suspect I could hear a difference between ported subs as well. That also indicates to me that I should be able to discern differences between ported and sealed designs. I'm not saying which I may prefer, or even how distinct the differences would be, but I have little doubt there would be differences.

Just my two cents.
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post #12380 of 29815 Old 06-24-2014, 03:49 PM
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There is also a myth that music rarely if ever goes very deep. In most cases, that is correct, but even a piano is cable of 27 Hz. Pipe organs capable of 16 Hz, and Synthesizers even lower. Again, it depends upon one's catalog of music and what one wants a subwoofer to do for them.
I hear that. Today's new music like Beyonce, Black Eyed Peas, Flo Rida, Kanye West, Taio Cruz, Pitbull, and the like have some seriously low bass in some of their music.

Would it be true to say that an inexpensive driver would sound less boomy (tighter to our ears) in a sealed enclosure than a ported one with similar amps? I know there are a lot of variables to consider, but bass is a fickle beast.

With that being said, the new "SE" driver in my XV15s do sound much tighter. Much more musical than the older driver. Like Tom said, the new "SE" drivers were an experiment for the Triax and are of higher quality, thus most likely lending to a tighter more pronounced subwoofer.

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post #12381 of 29815 Old 06-24-2014, 04:19 PM
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^^ Hi climber. As you indicated, there are a lot of variables, not including driver quality. The room a subwoofer is in and how it is setup is a big variable. As is the speakers one is matching a subwoofer to, and how well it is matched. Speakers and subwoofers will indeed sound different in different environments. You've seen (heard) first-hand what a more sophisticated driver is capable of (not that the original driver wasn't capable). Your XV15's sound has changed and noticeably since you updated (as has others). Therefore, you could safely say there are audible difference that you could discern from one ported sub to another (even if it is the same sub with different drivers).

An inexpensive driver may indicate a design philosophy for a company. Not to say the product is poor, but it will sound different, especially if the driver taxed, which may lead to some unpleasantness. Would such a driver sound better in a sealed environment? I really couldn't say. It often depends upon the DSP, how it is set and how capable the DSP is.

I also agree that there is a lot more effort in some genres of music to include impressive bass. The type of engineering behind any CD, SACD or DVD-A is crucial in getting a wonderful experience. With movie LFE, the distortion can be higher without noticing it. For music, especially well-engineered music that one knows by rote, distortion matters and can easily be heard. And each subwoofer or speaker will handle different passages differently (slight differences and not so slight).
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post #12382 of 29815 Old 06-24-2014, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Magibeg View Post
Just patiently waiting for my sub woofer at this point, and probably a few in the same boat. Seems Tom must have outdone himself and they have been selling like hot cakes. The best things always seem to require a bit of a wait
I'm in that boat right along with you. I picked up a JBL PSW-D115 sub with a blown amp off of craigslist for $30 that I've been using for a year to get me by . It's done well but I'm ready for the next step or should I say leap. I hope my neighbors are ready.

Disclaimer:
The words above are based on loose facts mixed with my opinion, the latter of which is subject to change.

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post #12383 of 29815 Old 06-24-2014, 09:30 PM
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Bah c'mon you can do better than that. Order dual Traix's.
Don't say that, I just might consider it!
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post #12384 of 29815 Old 06-25-2014, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post
bear: Is it really a myth? This thought pattern came from many professional reviewers, some as long as a decade ago or more. It came from reviewers who's number one concern is with music, and usually stereo and not home theater. Obviously, the music one plays will indeed matter. It's a lot different from having parties with music going, or music as a background than it is with critical listening. These reviewers critically listen to their music and give their thoughts on what a subwoofer gives, takes away or over enhances. It may indeed be minute to most people, but to them it is important. Music is extremely personal, unlike the LFE from movies. There is also a myth that music rarely if ever goes very deep. In most cases, that is correct, but even a piano is cable of 27 Hz. Pipe organs capable of 16 Hz, and Synthesizers even lower. Again, it depends upon one's catalog of music and what one wants a subwoofer to do for them.

That being said, subwoofers have changed over the years. Inexpensive ported subs gave a lot of bang for the buck. In today's era of high quality sealed and ported designs, the differences have diminished. However, if I can hear a distinct difference between high quality sealed subs (I've auditioned several, and three in my home), I suspect I could hear a difference between ported subs as well. That also indicates to me that I should be able to discern differences between ported and sealed designs. I'm not saying which I may prefer, or even how distinct the differences would be, but I have little doubt there would be differences.

Just my two cents.
I prefer the sound of a sealed sub myself especially when it comes to music.

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post #12385 of 29815 Old 06-25-2014, 02:17 AM
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^^ Hi Mike. I think many people prefer sealed over ported for music. However, bear made a good point in that people automatically think sealed over ported for music, when in fact it isn't all that cut-and-dried. I think it was bear (not really sure) that had referred in the past to a blind test via the Kansas City subwoofer shootout where dedicated AVSer's were surprised they had guessed wrong. It really is more difficult to tell when one doesn't know what sub is playing. However, it's a lot more difficult (if not impossible) if one is not intimately familiar with the pieces of music being played, and played in an unknown environment and at a sound level far above what a person normally listens at. Plus, a person may not be familiar with the speaker setup either. So I wasn't all that surprised to see that most couldn't tell sealed from ported in that shootout. In one's home environment, with one's own speaker setup and with music that one is very familiar with, I do think that most people could tell the difference between ported and sealed subwoofers to varying degrees. The caveat is that there may be some exemplary ported subs that may actually outperform some well-engineered sealed designs.

I cannot confirm sealed vs ported personally, because I tested only sealed designs. Although I do have a ported sub, it would be superfluous to test this theory out, since my ported sub is simply not in the same league as the sealed subs that I auditioned.
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post #12386 of 29815 Old 06-25-2014, 04:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
I prefer the sound of a sealed sub myself especially when it comes to music.
I believe that completely. However, a lot of what I have seen says that when said sealed sub is placed behind a curtain, and eq'd flat with various similar quality ported/horn/sealed alignments, people are unable to determine which alignement they are listening to. It is natural to form preferences for things, especially when pre-conceived biases come into play....they can make us hear what we want to. However, perception is reality. If one perceives a better sound due to a sub being sealed rather than ported, then that is what one perceives. Again, if a certain alignment of sub sounds better to someone, then it is true.

My suggestion is more for people shopping for a new sub, in that they should not assume sealed sounds better for music compared to ported or horn or whatever....I just don't think that is the case. Again, most preferences fly out the window when the curtain is drawn. I believe it is the same thing with expensive amps. If a person spends several thousand dollars on an extremely expensive amp and then notices more air in the vocals and a better soundstage, improved clarity on vocals, deeper crisper bass, then it is money well spent, even though they would likely not be able to tell the difference between amps if they did not know/see what they were listening to. Perception is reality.

Last edited by bear123; 06-25-2014 at 04:52 AM.
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post #12387 of 29815 Old 06-25-2014, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
I believe that completely. However, a lot of what I have seen says that when said sealed sub is placed behind a curtain, and eq'd flat with various similar quality ported/horn/sealed alignments, people are unable to determine which alignement they are listening to. It is natural to form preferences for things, especially when pre-conceived biases come into play....they can make us hear what we want to. However, perception is reality. If one perceives a better sound due to a sub being sealed rather than ported, then that is what one perceives. Again, if a certain alignment of sub sounds better to someone, then it is true.

My suggestion is more for people shopping for a new sub, in that they should not assume sealed sounds better for music compared to ported or horn or whatever....I just don't think that is the case. Again, most preferences fly out the window when the curtain is drawn. I believe it is the same thing with expensive amps. If a person spends several thousand dollars on an extremely expensive amp and then notices more air in the vocals and a better soundstage, improved clarity on vocals, deeper crisper bass, then it is money well spent, even though they would likely not be able to tell the difference between amps if they did not know/see what they were listening to. Perception is reality.
Just a point from a noobs perspective, I wouldn't blame people for wanting to jump on a sealed sub due to port noise alone. It seems like I've joined this forum just to complain about my PL-200. After owning this sub, port noise has taken a lot of enjoyment out of movies. Now, it isn't really a problem for music. Actually, other then the fact that the sub doesn't really reach deep, I don't have any issues with it during music playback. Sometimes I think, "If I get the XS15se instead of the XV15se, I won't have any chance at port noise." Maybe owning this sub has made me hyper-sensitive to the idea. I don't know. I can see a lot of new guys being turned away from ported subs just from getting a cheap ported sub first. I know, not really what you guys were talking about, maybe I'm just wanting to rant due to sleep deprivation. My son is worth it. Now, if momma would only let me go ahead and get a sub then I wouldn't be here to complain so much.
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post #12388 of 29815 Old 06-25-2014, 07:07 AM
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^You are not going to have any port noise with the XV15se. I have put mine thru the paces and they have never once chuffed. Now if you start over boosting the lowest octaves then yes there is a chance...set up correctly no.
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post #12389 of 29815 Old 06-25-2014, 07:20 AM
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I figured that. It is just hard for me to fathom, considering that my current sub has often more output in port noise than actual bass frequencies. <--- Not an exaggeration and completely true. As far as setup on my current sub, I ran Audyssey MultiEQ XT and bumped the avr +3db. At one point, I was running +6db in the avr, but that was just too much on the little guy, even at -20db.

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post #12390 of 29815 Old 06-25-2014, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oshia86 View Post
I figured that. It is just hard for me to fathom, considering that my current sub has often more output in port noise than actual bass frequencies. <--- Not an exaggeration and completely true. As far as setup on my current sub, I ran Audyssey MultiEQ XT and bumped the avr +3db. At one point, I was running +6db in the avr, but that was just too much on the little guy, even at -20db.
While you are waiting on adding a PSA sub to your set up - you may want to turn the gain down on your current sub and rerun Audyssey until you see a sub trim with a negative setting, you'll then have some headroom if you still feel the need to bump the trim setting on the AVR

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