Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 414 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #12391 of 29831 Old 06-25-2014, 09:08 AM
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Just to be clear, the avr was setting the sub to -6.5db with the sub at its current gain setting. I bumped it up 3db from there, to -3.5db. So I went +3 db, not bumped it to +3.
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post #12392 of 29831 Old 06-25-2014, 09:10 AM
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Could you increase the gain and rerun the air calibration so that the subs are set to about -9db trim? This will give you enough headroom so that the air gain doesn't go beyond 0.
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Originally Posted by oshia86 View Post
Just to be clear, the avr was setting the sub to -6.5db with the sub at its current gain setting. I bumped it up 3db from there, to -3.5db. So I went +3 db, not bumped it to +3.

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post #12393 of 29831 Old 06-25-2014, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by oshia86 View Post
I figured that. It is just hard for me to fathom, considering that my current sub has often more output in port noise than actual bass frequencies. <--- Not an exaggeration and completely true. As far as setup on my current sub, I ran Audyssey MultiEQ XT and bumped the avr +3db. At one point, I was running +6db in the avr, but that was just too much on the little guy, even at -20db.
I'm actually quite surprised you are having so many issues with the PL-200. I also currently own one and I don't think I've heard a peep of port noise from mine even at very high volumes (reference level +1db gain on sub, 2500cf space). Could it be related to where your sub is positioned? (back end too close to the wall maybe?)
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post #12394 of 29831 Old 06-25-2014, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by oshia86 View Post
Just to be clear, the avr was setting the sub to -6.5db with the sub at its current gain setting. I bumped it up 3db from there, to -3.5db. So I went +3 db, not bumped it to +3.
You're golden then. No need to turn the gain down.

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post #12395 of 29831 Old 06-25-2014, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by flydeep View Post
Could you increase the gain and rerun the air calibration so that the subs are set to about -9db trim? This will give you enough headroom so that the air gain doesn't go beyond 0.



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I'm confused. As stated, the max my avr is set to now is -3.5db. I'm not at or above 0 for the sub. You're saying I should shoot for a initial setting of less than the -6.5?
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post #12396 of 29831 Old 06-25-2014, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Magibeg View Post
I'm actually quite surprised you are having so many issues with the PL-200. I also currently own one and I don't think I've heard a peep of port noise from mine even at very high volumes (reference level +1db gain on sub, 2500cf space). Could it be related to where your sub is positioned? (back end too close to the wall maybe?)
Honestly, I wouldn't think so. The sub is a good distance from the wall, and I want to say I've even rotated the sub where the port was not facing the wall. This really only happens in movies. I watch movies typically at -20db, and the max being -15db. One such scene that causes this is the exorcism near the end of The Conjuring. Actually, most of that movie makes the sub cry.

Trust me, as soon as I'm able, a XV15se is on its way.
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post #12397 of 29831 Old 06-25-2014, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by oshia86 View Post
I'm confused. As stated, the max my avr is set to now is -3.5db. I'm not at or above 0 for the sub. You're saying I should shoot for a initial setting of less than the -6.5?
If only boosting 3db and your at -3.5db your fine.

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post #12398 of 29831 Old 06-25-2014, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by oshia86 View Post
Just a point from a noobs perspective, I wouldn't blame people for wanting to jump on a sealed sub due to port noise alone. It seems like I've joined this forum just to complain about my PL-200. After owning this sub, port noise has taken a lot of enjoyment out of movies. Now, it isn't really a problem for music. Actually, other then the fact that the sub doesn't really reach deep, I don't have any issues with it during music playback. Sometimes I think, "If I get the XS15se instead of the XV15se, I won't have any chance at port noise." Maybe owning this sub has made me hyper-sensitive to the idea. I don't know. I can see a lot of new guys being turned away from ported subs just from getting a cheap ported sub first. I know, not really what you guys were talking about, maybe I'm just wanting to rant due to sleep deprivation. My son is worth it. Now, if momma would only let me go ahead and get a sub then I wouldn't be here to complain so much.
The PL-200 is tuned to something like 31-32hz IIRC. With a 4" port (somewhat flared) I bet you aren't getting "port chuffing" in the traditional sense. Meaning, this isn't a case of the laminar air flow through the port exceeding acceptable limits. I'm guessing this is the entire system unloading. Under the "tune" the port and driver will begin to operate out of phase. The driver loses its internal dampening and begins to "waffle"....just moving back and forth without really producing much bass.

In any case, this won't sound very good...as you have noted.

With the XV15se, you don't need to worry about port noise or any other kinds of odd noises.

There are reasons to pick the XS15se over the XV15se. However, the possibility of port noise is not one of them..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #12399 of 29831 Old 06-25-2014, 10:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

There are reasons to pick the XS15se over the XV15se. However, the possibility of port noise is not one of them..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
what are some of the big reasons to pick one over the other Tom?


thanks
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post #12400 of 29831 Old 06-25-2014, 10:57 AM
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My bad, I think I read your previous post and replied to the updated one. If you are -3.5dB after increasing the sub trim in AVR, you are good. Ideally you should not hear any port chuffing for PL-200, it is a decent sub. I am puzzled why you hearing port noises, maybe you were pushing it quite loud or it is a defective one?

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I'm confused. As stated, the max my avr is set to now is -3.5db. I'm not at or above 0 for the sub. You're saying I should shoot for a initial setting of less than the -6.5?

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post #12401 of 29831 Old 06-25-2014, 11:24 AM
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You mean to tell me my sub might be broken? Yes, you say?

"Wifey, the sub is broken and I need a new one NOW!!!"

That'll work, right?


All kidding aside, I'll try to investigate more tonight. Like I said, it only happens during movies, and as low as -20db. That isn't something that is unreasonable, right? Also, I wasn't really saying the XV15se would have port noise, I was just pointing at it seems "too good to be true" that something wouldn't.

Last edited by oshia86; 06-25-2014 at 11:29 AM.
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post #12402 of 29831 Old 06-25-2014, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by cableguy301 View Post
what are some of the big reasons to pick one over the other Tom?


thanks
Hi Cableguy301

It really comes down to a couple of basic variables. First, the smaller the room environment the more likely the XS15se would be a better pick over the XV15se. This is because one of the "cool to have" benefits of the XS15se(and XS30se) is their frequency response rolloff <30hz is conducive to VERY deep in room extension. Quite often, you'll see true extension into the 10-12hz range and 7-9hz isn't out of the question. Now, the benefits of this type of extension can be argued of course but all things being equal....I'm sure most/all would be glad to have it..

Now, as room environment grows larger, the XS15se and XS30se will lose some of their deep bass extension capabilities. And in larger rooms...say 4000-5000 cu-ft and above, the overall extension will end up being similar to the XV15se and XV30Fse. So in the larger rooms you lose the main benefit for the sealed sub options.

For the ported models, the main advantage is headroom or maximum clean output capabilities. In the upper bass there isn't much difference(between the XV15se and XS15se) but in the deep bass...15hz to 35hz for example, the XV15se will have nearly double the output capabilities.

So, the larger the room environment the more likely the XV15se would be the better choice.

And the louder someone enjoys action oriented DVDs(which usually have strong bass in the 15-35hz range), the more likely the XV15se would be the better choice.

As always though, there are other factors to consider as well. For example we have quite a few customers with four XS30s in larger rooms(>5000 cuft). They typically ask about starting with duals and adding two more down the road. That is fine as eight 15" subwoofers drivers can pressurize(and extend DEEP) in larger rooms. If they would have asked, what is best for me one XS15se or one XV15se. Almost without a doubt, the XV15se every time.

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post #12403 of 29831 Old 06-25-2014, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
If you still have the 1ex try a single XV15se against that as time allows. Then try the duals against the duals. Be sure you spend some time with your favorite music too. I know the tendency is to grab War of the Worlds with every new subwoofer purchase...but in some regards a music listening session can be just as important..

Also, Anyone waiting on a shipping notice should see something within 1-2 business days. We have a large quantity of amplifiers inbound at the moment. They left Chicago yesterday for Cleveland. And I'm hoping they'll be here tomorrow.

Tom V.
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Hey Tom, did the amps make it in?
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post #12404 of 29831 Old 06-25-2014, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Hi Cableguy301

It really comes down to a couple of basic variables. First, the smaller the room environment the more likely the XS15se would be a better pick over the XV15se. This is because one of the "cool to have" benefits of the XS15se(and XS30se) is their frequency response rolloff <30hz is conducive to VERY deep in room extension. Quite often, you'll see true extension into the 10-12hz range and 7-9hz isn't out of the question. Now, the benefits of this type of extension can be argued of course but all things being equal....I'm sure most/all would be glad to have it..

Now, as room environment grows larger, the XS15se and XS30se will lose some of their deep bass extension capabilities. And in larger rooms...say 4000-5000 cu-ft and above, the overall extension will end up being similar to the XV15se and XV30Fse. So in the larger rooms you lose the main benefit for the sealed sub options.

For the ported models, the main advantage is headroom or maximum clean output capabilities. In the upper bass there isn't much difference(between the XV15se and XS15se) but in the deep bass...15hz to 35hz for example, the XV15se will have nearly double the output capabilities.

So, the larger the room environment the more likely the XV15se would be the better choice.

And the louder someone enjoys action oriented DVDs(which usually have strong bass in the 15-35hz range), the more likely the XV15se would be the better choice.

As always though, there are other factors to consider as well. For example we have quite a few customers with four XS30s in larger rooms(>5000 cuft). They typically ask about starting with duals and adding two more down the road. That is fine as eight 15" subwoofers drivers can pressurize(and extend DEEP) in larger rooms. If they would have asked, what is best for me one XS15se or one XV15se. Almost without a doubt, the XV15se every time.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Tom is right. Four XS30s strategically positioned around a 2,500 c.f. dedicated home theater opening into a 5,000+ c.f. bar area/game room play smooth and deep.
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post #12405 of 29831 Old 06-25-2014, 02:45 PM
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Is there any downside to matching the same series of single and dual subs? ex 1x XS15se and 1x XS30se?
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post #12406 of 29831 Old 06-25-2014, 03:12 PM
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Is there any downside to matching the same series of single and dual subs? ex 1x XS15se and 1x XS30se?
With regards to our products, no. The XS15se and XS30se are very similar in all regards except max output capabilities. The same can be said for the XV15se and XV30Fse.

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post #12407 of 29831 Old 06-25-2014, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by oshia86 View Post
You mean to tell me my sub might be broken? Yes, you say?

"Wifey, the sub is broken and I need a new one NOW!!!"

That'll work, right?


All kidding aside, I'll try to investigate more tonight. Like I said, it only happens during movies, and as low as -20db. That isn't something that is unreasonable, right? Also, I wasn't really saying the XV15se would have port noise, I was just pointing at it seems "too good to be true" that something wouldn't.
Are you using a receiver with some type of auto dynamic EQ? Audyssey for example?

If you want to experiment a bit, you can try an inexpensive highpass filter on your sub. This passive option might help for about 25 bucks. http://www.hlabs.com/products/attenuators/ . Also, for about 50 bucks you might be able to find a used ART 351 graphic EQ(or something similar). Not only can you boost/cut things in the sub bandwidth, but these EQs have user adjustable highpass controls. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...FRQ1MgodhyQA_Q



I may still have a big bag of these (F-mods) at home somewhere unless I threw them out/gave them away one spring. I'll check.

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Power Sound Audio
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post #12408 of 29831 Old 06-25-2014, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
Hey Tom, did the amps make it in?

Sorry, no. I've been waiting for the notification all day that they shipped and were "out for delivery" but nothing today. As soon as they ship from Cleveland it will only be about an hour to us. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for tomorrow morning now.

We did ship out a handful of subs today as we used up our "emergency" stash of new amplifiers we keep in case of shipping damage, warranty stuff, etc.

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post #12409 of 29831 Old 06-25-2014, 03:33 PM
 
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thanks Tom...


what the difference between output in low bass 15-35hz with the xv15se and deep extension 10hz maybe with a pair of seal subs like the xs15se..


with lower bass waves do you need more spl in db to be useable?


thanks
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post #12410 of 29831 Old 06-25-2014, 04:01 PM
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i got my confirmation today the xv15se is on the way
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post #12411 of 29831 Old 06-25-2014, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by cableguy301 View Post
thanks Tom...


what the difference between output in low bass 15-35hz with the xv15se and deep extension 10hz maybe with a pair of seal subs like the xs15se..


with lower bass waves do you need more spl in db to be useable?


thanks
Hi Cableguy301,

1)by lower bass waves, I'm thinking you mean frequency? If so, you are correct. Our hearing loses sensitivity as frequencies drop. I recently made a big post about this I will copy/paste.


Understanding the "Equal Loudness Curves".

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...nd/eqloud.html

Admittedly a proper examination of the equal loudness curves is quite beyond the scope of a "tip of the day". But here are a few basic points.

1)We often hear "it takes 10dB to sound like "double" the loudness. This is true but it is referenced to 1kHz. This changes at the frequency extremes but stays remarkably accurate regardless of the loudness.

2)Contrary to some opinion a speaker should "not" be engineered to look like these graphs.

3)Notice our hearing is most sensitive in the 3kHz - 5khz range. Nails on the caulk board or a baby's cry anyone? It is no accident that our hearing is most sensitive in conjunction with our offspring expressing signs of discomfort of course. Call it divine intervention or evolution---either way....the baby is getting you up in the middle of the night..

4) Under 100hz it takes much less than 10dB to be perceived as a doubling of the loudness.(remember, going from one curve to the next on these graphs represent a perceived doubling of loudness.) For example, at 20hz and 90dB it only takes about 5dB for "double the apparent loudness"

5)Notice how insensitive our ears are in the deep bass. For example, 1kHz tone at 60dB and a 20hz tone at 100dB share the same loudness(Phon) curve.

6)"Decibel" is used to measure loudness of a sound". "Phon" is used to describe someone's *perception* of that loudness.

7)Misunderstanding the research behind the equal loudness curves is primarily responsible for the audio fallacy of "humans cannot hear under 20hz".


16-25hz the XV15se averages about 6.5dB more....so slightly more than double.
31-50hz the XV15se averages about 2.5dB more....so a little under "50% more". (in other words it would take almost 3 XS15se to = 2 XV15se.

From 16-35hz it is just about double again.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #12412 of 29831 Old 06-25-2014, 04:50 PM
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i got my confirmation today the xv15se is on the way
Dude

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post #12413 of 29831 Old 06-25-2014, 05:46 PM
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I believe that completely. However, a lot of what I have seen says that when said sealed sub is placed behind a curtain, and eq'd flat with various similar quality ported/horn/sealed alignments, people are unable to determine which alignement they are listening to. It is natural to form preferences for things, especially when pre-conceived biases come into play....they can make us hear what we want to. However, perception is reality. If one perceives a better sound due to a sub being sealed rather than ported, then that is what one perceives. Again, if a certain alignment of sub sounds better to someone, then it is true.

My suggestion is more for people shopping for a new sub, in that they should not assume sealed sounds better for music compared to ported or horn or whatever....I just don't think that is the case. Again, most preferences fly out the window when the curtain is drawn. I believe it is the same thing with expensive amps. If a person spends several thousand dollars on an extremely expensive amp and then notices more air in the vocals and a better soundstage, improved clarity on vocals, deeper crisper bass, then it is money well spent, even though they would likely not be able to tell the difference between amps if they did not know/see what they were listening to. Perception is reality.

I had a few ported/ vented subs before and I thought they were tons of fun when it came to movies but I was after a higher fidelity sound ( tighter, crisp, snap ) so I went with a sealed sub and I noticed it right away, now this was 14 years ago and I sure technology has advanced but I'm still bias towards Sealed subs. I remember Widescreen review Special Subwoofer edition and Richard Hardesty noted that if you are after high fidelity sound and music matters then stick with a sealed design, now this was 15 years ago too and as I said technology has advanced. I did talk to Tom a few weeks back and thought about returning my XS30 for dual XV15's ( since that route I would have dual subs sooner ) and he said if I had 1 XS30se and 1 XV15se in my room that he would have no doubt that I would be returning the XV15se and keeping my XS30se. I like sealed subs and I love dual designed subs so the XS30se was a no brainer for me.
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post #12414 of 29831 Old 06-25-2014, 05:52 PM
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i got my confirmation today the xv15se is on the way
Lucky guy!
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
I had a few ported/ vented subs before and I thought they were tons of fun when it came to movies but I was after a higher fidelity sound ( tighter, crisp, snap ) so I went with a sealed sub and I noticed it right away, now this was 14 years ago and I sure technology has advanced but I'm still bias towards Sealed subs. I remember Widescreen review Special Subwoofer edition and Richard Hardesty noted that if you are after high fidelity sound and music matters then stick with a sealed design, now this was 15 years ago too and as I said technology has advanced. I did talk to Tom a few weeks back and thought about returning my XS30 for dual XV15's ( since that route I would have dual subs sooner ) and he said if I had 1 XS30se and 1 XV15se in my room that he would have no doubt that I would be returning the XV15se and keeping my XS30se. I like sealed subs and I love dual designed subs so the XS30se was a no brainer for me.
I had a single XS30 and I REALLY liked it a lot. However, having matching dual subs was a top priority for me and dual XS30's were out of budget. So I have dual XV15's which for me personally, was a better option than ANY single sub, due to my rooms horrible FR with a single sub. I do think technology has changed a lot when it comes to subwoofers...after all 5 or ten years ago you could not even approach the performance available now from affordable ID subs. I do think for music only, sealed is a better option, but mainly because they are smaller and cheaper than a comparable ported sub(due to the large cab/shipping etc). No reason to spend money on high output around port tune that won't be used on music. The XS30 sure had some incredible output with music.
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post #12416 of 29831 Old 06-25-2014, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oshia86 View Post
You mean to tell me my sub might be broken? Yes, you say?

"Wifey, the sub is broken and I need a new one NOW!!!"

That'll work, right?


All kidding aside, I'll try to investigate more tonight. Like I said, it only happens during movies, and as low as -20db. That isn't something that is unreasonable, right? Also, I wasn't really saying the XV15se would have port noise, I was just pointing at it seems "too good to be true" that something wouldn't.
I think I can see the problem here. -20 MV does not seem to be all that loud for movies, reasonable enough even with wife and family right? Well lets look at the SPL requirement of you sub at that level. Reference level demands 115 dB peaks from the sub, plus an additional 6 dB of bass redirected from a 5 channel surround system crossed over at 80 Hz, so 115-121 dB peaks.

At -20 MV, with subs 6 dB hot, your sub needs to be able to play -14 from reference, which is 101-107 dB. The PL200 has a MAX BURST of 84 dB at 20 Hz, 96 dB at 25 Hz, and 102 dB at 31.5 Hz. So even at 31 Hz, your sub is being pushed up to and beyond its capabilities, and is no where near capable at 20 or 25. That is why people experience such dramatic increases in performance when going through multiple subwoofer upgrades...its quite surprising how much capability is needed to get clean, uncompressed playback down to 16 Hz. I would venture to say that most subs, expecially budget sub, when approaching advertised max burst output, are going to start objecting. Even at what we consider moderate volumes.

Now bump your MV to -15. At 6 dB hot you are asking your sub to now produce peaks of 106-112 dB. How many subs do you see that can do that down to 16? Even duals?

I know that I certainly underestimated, by a long shot, how much output it takes for clean playback even at moderate levels. That's why my sub budget started at 5-$600 and went to $1700


I think that considering ones preferred MV level for movies, add in how hot you like to run your subs, add 5 dB just in case, and figure out the SPL needed for clean playback. This should put you in the ballpark of how much subwoofer(s) you need.
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post #12417 of 29831 Old 06-25-2014, 08:31 PM
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My system was setup with MultiEQ Xt. The hottest I run my sub currently is +3d. I just checked, it really seems like port noise to me. I took videos but I'm not real sure how well they would turn out from my cell phone. I played The Pod scene from WOTW and most of the time there is noise, the driver is hardly moving.
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post #12418 of 29831 Old 06-25-2014, 09:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oshia86 View Post
My system was setup with MultiEQ Xt. The hottest I run my sub currently is +3d. I just checked, it really seems like port noise to me. I took videos but I'm not real sure how well they would turn out from my cell phone. I played The Pod scene from WOTW and most of the time there is noise, the driver is hardly moving.


think u will have no trouble with a pair of xs 30 se
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post #12419 of 29831 Old 06-25-2014, 09:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Hi Cableguy301,

1)by lower bass waves, I'm thinking you mean frequency? If so, you are correct. Our hearing loses sensitivity as frequencies drop. I recently made a big post about this I will copy/paste.


Understanding the "Equal Loudness Curves".

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...nd/eqloud.html

Admittedly a proper examination of the equal loudness curves is quite beyond the scope of a "tip of the day". But here are a few basic points.

1)We often hear "it takes 10dB to sound like "double" the loudness. This is true but it is referenced to 1kHz. This changes at the frequency extremes but stays remarkably accurate regardless of the loudness.

2)Contrary to some opinion a speaker should "not" be engineered to look like these graphs.

3)Notice our hearing is most sensitive in the 3kHz - 5khz range. Nails on the caulk board or a baby's cry anyone? It is no accident that our hearing is most sensitive in conjunction with our offspring expressing signs of discomfort of course. Call it divine intervention or evolution---either way....the baby is getting you up in the middle of the night..

4) Under 100hz it takes much less than 10dB to be perceived as a doubling of the loudness.(remember, going from one curve to the next on these graphs represent a perceived doubling of loudness.) For example, at 20hz and 90dB it only takes about 5dB for "double the apparent loudness"

5)Notice how insensitive our ears are in the deep bass. For example, 1kHz tone at 60dB and a 20hz tone at 100dB share the same loudness(Phon) curve.

6)"Decibel" is used to measure loudness of a sound". "Phon" is used to describe someone's *perception* of that loudness.

7)Misunderstanding the research behind the equal loudness curves is primarily responsible for the audio fallacy of "humans cannot hear under 20hz".


16-25hz the XV15se averages about 6.5dB more....so slightly more than double.
31-50hz the XV15se averages about 2.5dB more....so a little under "50% more". (in other words it would take almost 3 XS15se to = 2 XV15se.

From 16-35hz it is just about double again.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio


thanks for the great feed back Tom.. sorta blows my mind trying to understand it...


do I need a sub with 125 db output at 20hz to enjoy 95 db music in phons?


thanks...

Last edited by cableguy301; 06-25-2014 at 10:02 PM.
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post #12420 of 29831 Old 06-26-2014, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cableguy301 View Post
think u will have no trouble with a pair of xs 30 se
I wish. I honestly don't think that will be in the cards when the time comes. Even if I did, I think I'm pretty much stuck at co-locating them as that will be the only spot I have to put the box. I'm really hoping the XV15se is enough in itself.

How does the XS30se compare to the XV15se as far as output? Not sure I would be able to stretch the budget that much.
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