Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 415 - AVS Forum
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post #12421 of 13813 Old 06-24-2014, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Magibeg View Post
Just patiently waiting for my sub woofer at this point, and probably a few in the same boat. Seems Tom must have outdone himself and they have been selling like hot cakes. The best things always seem to require a bit of a wait
I'm in that boat right along with you. I picked up a JBL PSW-D115 sub with a blown amp off of craigslist for $30 that I've been using for a year to get me by . It's done well but I'm ready for the next step or should I say leap. I hope my neighbors are ready.

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The words above are based on loose facts mixed with my opinion, the latter of which is subject to change.

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post #12422 of 13813 Old 06-24-2014, 08:30 PM
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Bah c'mon you can do better than that. Order dual Traix's.
Don't say that, I just might consider it!
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post #12423 of 13813 Old 06-24-2014, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post
bear: Is it really a myth? This thought pattern came from many professional reviewers, some as long as a decade ago or more. It came from reviewers who's number one concern is with music, and usually stereo and not home theater. Obviously, the music one plays will indeed matter. It's a lot different from having parties with music going, or music as a background than it is with critical listening. These reviewers critically listen to their music and give their thoughts on what a subwoofer gives, takes away or over enhances. It may indeed be minute to most people, but to them it is important. Music is extremely personal, unlike the LFE from movies. There is also a myth that music rarely if ever goes very deep. In most cases, that is correct, but even a piano is cable of 27 Hz. Pipe organs capable of 16 Hz, and Synthesizers even lower. Again, it depends upon one's catalog of music and what one wants a subwoofer to do for them.

That being said, subwoofers have changed over the years. Inexpensive ported subs gave a lot of bang for the buck. In today's era of high quality sealed and ported designs, the differences have diminished. However, if I can hear a distinct difference between high quality sealed subs (I've auditioned several, and three in my home), I suspect I could hear a difference between ported subs as well. That also indicates to me that I should be able to discern differences between ported and sealed designs. I'm not saying which I may prefer, or even how distinct the differences would be, but I have little doubt there would be differences.

Just my two cents.
I prefer the sound of a sealed sub myself especially when it comes to music.

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post #12424 of 13813 Old 06-25-2014, 01:17 AM
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^^ Hi Mike. I think many people prefer sealed over ported for music. However, bear made a good point in that people automatically think sealed over ported for music, when in fact it isn't all that cut-and-dried. I think it was bear (not really sure) that had referred in the past to a blind test via the Kansas City subwoofer shootout where dedicated AVSer's were surprised they had guessed wrong. It really is more difficult to tell when one doesn't know what sub is playing. However, it's a lot more difficult (if not impossible) if one is not intimately familiar with the pieces of music being played, and played in an unknown environment and at a sound level far above what a person normally listens at. Plus, a person may not be familiar with the speaker setup either. So I wasn't all that surprised to see that most couldn't tell sealed from ported in that shootout. In one's home environment, with one's own speaker setup and with music that one is very familiar with, I do think that most people could tell the difference between ported and sealed subwoofers to varying degrees. The caveat is that there may be some exemplary ported subs that may actually outperform some well-engineered sealed designs.

I cannot confirm sealed vs ported personally, because I tested only sealed designs. Although I do have a ported sub, it would be superfluous to test this theory out, since my ported sub is simply not in the same league as the sealed subs that I auditioned.
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post #12425 of 13813 Old 06-25-2014, 03:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
I prefer the sound of a sealed sub myself especially when it comes to music.
I believe that completely. However, a lot of what I have seen says that when said sealed sub is placed behind a curtain, and eq'd flat with various similar quality ported/horn/sealed alignments, people are unable to determine which alignement they are listening to. It is natural to form preferences for things, especially when pre-conceived biases come into play....they can make us hear what we want to. However, perception is reality. If one perceives a better sound due to a sub being sealed rather than ported, then that is what one perceives. Again, if a certain alignment of sub sounds better to someone, then it is true.

My suggestion is more for people shopping for a new sub, in that they should not assume sealed sounds better for music compared to ported or horn or whatever....I just don't think that is the case. Again, most preferences fly out the window when the curtain is drawn. I believe it is the same thing with expensive amps. If a person spends several thousand dollars on an extremely expensive amp and then notices more air in the vocals and a better soundstage, improved clarity on vocals, deeper crisper bass, then it is money well spent, even though they would likely not be able to tell the difference between amps if they did not know/see what they were listening to. Perception is reality.

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post #12426 of 13813 Old 06-25-2014, 05:20 AM
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I believe that completely. However, a lot of what I have seen says that when said sealed sub is placed behind a curtain, and eq'd flat with various similar quality ported/horn/sealed alignments, people are unable to determine which alignement they are listening to. It is natural to form preferences for things, especially when pre-conceived biases come into play....they can make us hear what we want to. However, perception is reality. If one perceives a better sound due to a sub being sealed rather than ported, then that is what one perceives. Again, if a certain alignment of sub sounds better to someone, then it is true.

My suggestion is more for people shopping for a new sub, in that they should not assume sealed sounds better for music compared to ported or horn or whatever....I just don't think that is the case. Again, most preferences fly out the window when the curtain is drawn. I believe it is the same thing with expensive amps. If a person spends several thousand dollars on an extremely expensive amp and then notices more air in the vocals and a better soundstage, improved clarity on vocals, deeper crisper bass, then it is money well spent, even though they would likely not be able to tell the difference between amps if they did not know/see what they were listening to. Perception is reality.
Just a point from a noobs perspective, I wouldn't blame people for wanting to jump on a sealed sub due to port noise alone. It seems like I've joined this forum just to complain about my PL-200. After owning this sub, port noise has taken a lot of enjoyment out of movies. Now, it isn't really a problem for music. Actually, other then the fact that the sub doesn't really reach deep, I don't have any issues with it during music playback. Sometimes I think, "If I get the XS15se instead of the XV15se, I won't have any chance at port noise." Maybe owning this sub has made me hyper-sensitive to the idea. I don't know. I can see a lot of new guys being turned away from ported subs just from getting a cheap ported sub first. I know, not really what you guys were talking about, maybe I'm just wanting to rant due to sleep deprivation. My son is worth it. Now, if momma would only let me go ahead and get a sub then I wouldn't be here to complain so much.
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post #12427 of 13813 Old 06-25-2014, 06:07 AM
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^You are not going to have any port noise with the XV15se. I have put mine thru the paces and they have never once chuffed. Now if you start over boosting the lowest octaves then yes there is a chance...set up correctly no.
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post #12428 of 13813 Old 06-25-2014, 06:20 AM
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I figured that. It is just hard for me to fathom, considering that my current sub has often more output in port noise than actual bass frequencies. <--- Not an exaggeration and completely true. As far as setup on my current sub, I ran Audyssey MultiEQ XT and bumped the avr +3db. At one point, I was running +6db in the avr, but that was just too much on the little guy, even at -20db.

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post #12429 of 13813 Old 06-25-2014, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oshia86 View Post
I figured that. It is just hard for me to fathom, considering that my current sub has often more output in port noise than actual bass frequencies. <--- Not an exaggeration and completely true. As far as setup on my current sub, I ran Audyssey MultiEQ XT and bumped the avr +3db. At one point, I was running +6db in the avr, but that was just too much on the little guy, even at -20db.
While you are waiting on adding a PSA sub to your set up - you may want to turn the gain down on your current sub and rerun Audyssey until you see a sub trim with a negative setting, you'll then have some headroom if you still feel the need to bump the trim setting on the AVR

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post #12430 of 13813 Old 06-25-2014, 08:08 AM
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Just to be clear, the avr was setting the sub to -6.5db with the sub at its current gain setting. I bumped it up 3db from there, to -3.5db. So I went +3 db, not bumped it to +3.
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post #12431 of 13813 Old 06-25-2014, 08:10 AM
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Could you increase the gain and rerun the air calibration so that the subs are set to about -9db trim? This will give you enough headroom so that the air gain doesn't go beyond 0.
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Just to be clear, the avr was setting the sub to -6.5db with the sub at its current gain setting. I bumped it up 3db from there, to -3.5db. So I went +3 db, not bumped it to +3.

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post #12432 of 13813 Old 06-25-2014, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by oshia86 View Post
I figured that. It is just hard for me to fathom, considering that my current sub has often more output in port noise than actual bass frequencies. <--- Not an exaggeration and completely true. As far as setup on my current sub, I ran Audyssey MultiEQ XT and bumped the avr +3db. At one point, I was running +6db in the avr, but that was just too much on the little guy, even at -20db.
I'm actually quite surprised you are having so many issues with the PL-200. I also currently own one and I don't think I've heard a peep of port noise from mine even at very high volumes (reference level +1db gain on sub, 2500cf space). Could it be related to where your sub is positioned? (back end too close to the wall maybe?)
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post #12433 of 13813 Old 06-25-2014, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by oshia86 View Post
Just to be clear, the avr was setting the sub to -6.5db with the sub at its current gain setting. I bumped it up 3db from there, to -3.5db. So I went +3 db, not bumped it to +3.
You're golden then. No need to turn the gain down.

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post #12434 of 13813 Old 06-25-2014, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by flydeep View Post
Could you increase the gain and rerun the air calibration so that the subs are set to about -9db trim? This will give you enough headroom so that the air gain doesn't go beyond 0.



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I'm confused. As stated, the max my avr is set to now is -3.5db. I'm not at or above 0 for the sub. You're saying I should shoot for a initial setting of less than the -6.5?
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post #12435 of 13813 Old 06-25-2014, 08:20 AM
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I'm actually quite surprised you are having so many issues with the PL-200. I also currently own one and I don't think I've heard a peep of port noise from mine even at very high volumes (reference level +1db gain on sub, 2500cf space). Could it be related to where your sub is positioned? (back end too close to the wall maybe?)
Honestly, I wouldn't think so. The sub is a good distance from the wall, and I want to say I've even rotated the sub where the port was not facing the wall. This really only happens in movies. I watch movies typically at -20db, and the max being -15db. One such scene that causes this is the exorcism near the end of The Conjuring. Actually, most of that movie makes the sub cry.

Trust me, as soon as I'm able, a XV15se is on its way.
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post #12436 of 13813 Old 06-25-2014, 08:26 AM
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I'm confused. As stated, the max my avr is set to now is -3.5db. I'm not at or above 0 for the sub. You're saying I should shoot for a initial setting of less than the -6.5?
If only boosting 3db and your at -3.5db your fine.

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post #12437 of 13813 Old 06-25-2014, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by oshia86 View Post
Just a point from a noobs perspective, I wouldn't blame people for wanting to jump on a sealed sub due to port noise alone. It seems like I've joined this forum just to complain about my PL-200. After owning this sub, port noise has taken a lot of enjoyment out of movies. Now, it isn't really a problem for music. Actually, other then the fact that the sub doesn't really reach deep, I don't have any issues with it during music playback. Sometimes I think, "If I get the XS15se instead of the XV15se, I won't have any chance at port noise." Maybe owning this sub has made me hyper-sensitive to the idea. I don't know. I can see a lot of new guys being turned away from ported subs just from getting a cheap ported sub first. I know, not really what you guys were talking about, maybe I'm just wanting to rant due to sleep deprivation. My son is worth it. Now, if momma would only let me go ahead and get a sub then I wouldn't be here to complain so much.
The PL-200 is tuned to something like 31-32hz IIRC. With a 4" port (somewhat flared) I bet you aren't getting "port chuffing" in the traditional sense. Meaning, this isn't a case of the laminar air flow through the port exceeding acceptable limits. I'm guessing this is the entire system unloading. Under the "tune" the port and driver will begin to operate out of phase. The driver loses its internal dampening and begins to "waffle"....just moving back and forth without really producing much bass.

In any case, this won't sound very good...as you have noted.

With the XV15se, you don't need to worry about port noise or any other kinds of odd noises.

There are reasons to pick the XS15se over the XV15se. However, the possibility of port noise is not one of them..

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post #12438 of 13813 Old 06-25-2014, 09:56 AM
 
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There are reasons to pick the XS15se over the XV15se. However, the possibility of port noise is not one of them..

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what are some of the big reasons to pick one over the other Tom?


thanks
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post #12439 of 13813 Old 06-25-2014, 09:57 AM
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My bad, I think I read your previous post and replied to the updated one. If you are -3.5dB after increasing the sub trim in AVR, you are good. Ideally you should not hear any port chuffing for PL-200, it is a decent sub. I am puzzled why you hearing port noises, maybe you were pushing it quite loud or it is a defective one?

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I'm confused. As stated, the max my avr is set to now is -3.5db. I'm not at or above 0 for the sub. You're saying I should shoot for a initial setting of less than the -6.5?

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post #12440 of 13813 Old 06-25-2014, 10:24 AM
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You mean to tell me my sub might be broken? Yes, you say?

"Wifey, the sub is broken and I need a new one NOW!!!"

That'll work, right?


All kidding aside, I'll try to investigate more tonight. Like I said, it only happens during movies, and as low as -20db. That isn't something that is unreasonable, right? Also, I wasn't really saying the XV15se would have port noise, I was just pointing at it seems "too good to be true" that something wouldn't.

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post #12441 of 13813 Old 06-25-2014, 11:13 AM
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what are some of the big reasons to pick one over the other Tom?


thanks
Hi Cableguy301

It really comes down to a couple of basic variables. First, the smaller the room environment the more likely the XS15se would be a better pick over the XV15se. This is because one of the "cool to have" benefits of the XS15se(and XS30se) is their frequency response rolloff <30hz is conducive to VERY deep in room extension. Quite often, you'll see true extension into the 10-12hz range and 7-9hz isn't out of the question. Now, the benefits of this type of extension can be argued of course but all things being equal....I'm sure most/all would be glad to have it..

Now, as room environment grows larger, the XS15se and XS30se will lose some of their deep bass extension capabilities. And in larger rooms...say 4000-5000 cu-ft and above, the overall extension will end up being similar to the XV15se and XV30Fse. So in the larger rooms you lose the main benefit for the sealed sub options.

For the ported models, the main advantage is headroom or maximum clean output capabilities. In the upper bass there isn't much difference(between the XV15se and XS15se) but in the deep bass...15hz to 35hz for example, the XV15se will have nearly double the output capabilities.

So, the larger the room environment the more likely the XV15se would be the better choice.

And the louder someone enjoys action oriented DVDs(which usually have strong bass in the 15-35hz range), the more likely the XV15se would be the better choice.

As always though, there are other factors to consider as well. For example we have quite a few customers with four XS30s in larger rooms(>5000 cuft). They typically ask about starting with duals and adding two more down the road. That is fine as eight 15" subwoofers drivers can pressurize(and extend DEEP) in larger rooms. If they would have asked, what is best for me one XS15se or one XV15se. Almost without a doubt, the XV15se every time.

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post #12442 of 13813 Old 06-25-2014, 01:07 PM
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If you still have the 1ex try a single XV15se against that as time allows. Then try the duals against the duals. Be sure you spend some time with your favorite music too. I know the tendency is to grab War of the Worlds with every new subwoofer purchase...but in some regards a music listening session can be just as important..

Also, Anyone waiting on a shipping notice should see something within 1-2 business days. We have a large quantity of amplifiers inbound at the moment. They left Chicago yesterday for Cleveland. And I'm hoping they'll be here tomorrow.

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Hey Tom, did the amps make it in?
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post #12443 of 13813 Old 06-25-2014, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Hi Cableguy301

It really comes down to a couple of basic variables. First, the smaller the room environment the more likely the XS15se would be a better pick over the XV15se. This is because one of the "cool to have" benefits of the XS15se(and XS30se) is their frequency response rolloff <30hz is conducive to VERY deep in room extension. Quite often, you'll see true extension into the 10-12hz range and 7-9hz isn't out of the question. Now, the benefits of this type of extension can be argued of course but all things being equal....I'm sure most/all would be glad to have it..

Now, as room environment grows larger, the XS15se and XS30se will lose some of their deep bass extension capabilities. And in larger rooms...say 4000-5000 cu-ft and above, the overall extension will end up being similar to the XV15se and XV30Fse. So in the larger rooms you lose the main benefit for the sealed sub options.

For the ported models, the main advantage is headroom or maximum clean output capabilities. In the upper bass there isn't much difference(between the XV15se and XS15se) but in the deep bass...15hz to 35hz for example, the XV15se will have nearly double the output capabilities.

So, the larger the room environment the more likely the XV15se would be the better choice.

And the louder someone enjoys action oriented DVDs(which usually have strong bass in the 15-35hz range), the more likely the XV15se would be the better choice.

As always though, there are other factors to consider as well. For example we have quite a few customers with four XS30s in larger rooms(>5000 cuft). They typically ask about starting with duals and adding two more down the road. That is fine as eight 15" subwoofers drivers can pressurize(and extend DEEP) in larger rooms. If they would have asked, what is best for me one XS15se or one XV15se. Almost without a doubt, the XV15se every time.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Tom is right. Four XS30s strategically positioned around a 2,500 c.f. dedicated home theater opening into a 5,000+ c.f. bar area/game room play smooth and deep.
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post #12444 of 13813 Old 06-25-2014, 01:45 PM
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Is there any downside to matching the same series of single and dual subs? ex 1x XS15se and 1x XS30se?
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post #12445 of 13813 Old 06-25-2014, 02:12 PM
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Is there any downside to matching the same series of single and dual subs? ex 1x XS15se and 1x XS30se?
With regards to our products, no. The XS15se and XS30se are very similar in all regards except max output capabilities. The same can be said for the XV15se and XV30Fse.

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post #12446 of 13813 Old 06-25-2014, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by oshia86 View Post
You mean to tell me my sub might be broken? Yes, you say?

"Wifey, the sub is broken and I need a new one NOW!!!"

That'll work, right?


All kidding aside, I'll try to investigate more tonight. Like I said, it only happens during movies, and as low as -20db. That isn't something that is unreasonable, right? Also, I wasn't really saying the XV15se would have port noise, I was just pointing at it seems "too good to be true" that something wouldn't.
Are you using a receiver with some type of auto dynamic EQ? Audyssey for example?

If you want to experiment a bit, you can try an inexpensive highpass filter on your sub. This passive option might help for about 25 bucks. http://www.hlabs.com/products/attenuators/ . Also, for about 50 bucks you might be able to find a used ART 351 graphic EQ(or something similar). Not only can you boost/cut things in the sub bandwidth, but these EQs have user adjustable highpass controls. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...FRQ1MgodhyQA_Q



I may still have a big bag of these (F-mods) at home somewhere unless I threw them out/gave them away one spring. I'll check.

Tom V.
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post #12447 of 13813 Old 06-25-2014, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
Hey Tom, did the amps make it in?

Sorry, no. I've been waiting for the notification all day that they shipped and were "out for delivery" but nothing today. As soon as they ship from Cleveland it will only be about an hour to us. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for tomorrow morning now.

We did ship out a handful of subs today as we used up our "emergency" stash of new amplifiers we keep in case of shipping damage, warranty stuff, etc.

Tom V.
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post #12448 of 13813 Old 06-25-2014, 02:33 PM
 
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thanks Tom...


what the difference between output in low bass 15-35hz with the xv15se and deep extension 10hz maybe with a pair of seal subs like the xs15se..


with lower bass waves do you need more spl in db to be useable?


thanks
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post #12449 of 13813 Old 06-25-2014, 03:01 PM
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i got my confirmation today the xv15se is on the way
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post #12450 of 13813 Old 06-25-2014, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by cableguy301 View Post
thanks Tom...


what the difference between output in low bass 15-35hz with the xv15se and deep extension 10hz maybe with a pair of seal subs like the xs15se..


with lower bass waves do you need more spl in db to be useable?


thanks
Hi Cableguy301,

1)by lower bass waves, I'm thinking you mean frequency? If so, you are correct. Our hearing loses sensitivity as frequencies drop. I recently made a big post about this I will copy/paste.


Understanding the "Equal Loudness Curves".

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...nd/eqloud.html

Admittedly a proper examination of the equal loudness curves is quite beyond the scope of a "tip of the day". But here are a few basic points.

1)We often hear "it takes 10dB to sound like "double" the loudness. This is true but it is referenced to 1kHz. This changes at the frequency extremes but stays remarkably accurate regardless of the loudness.

2)Contrary to some opinion a speaker should "not" be engineered to look like these graphs.

3)Notice our hearing is most sensitive in the 3kHz - 5khz range. Nails on the caulk board or a baby's cry anyone? It is no accident that our hearing is most sensitive in conjunction with our offspring expressing signs of discomfort of course. Call it divine intervention or evolution---either way....the baby is getting you up in the middle of the night..

4) Under 100hz it takes much less than 10dB to be perceived as a doubling of the loudness.(remember, going from one curve to the next on these graphs represent a perceived doubling of loudness.) For example, at 20hz and 90dB it only takes about 5dB for "double the apparent loudness"

5)Notice how insensitive our ears are in the deep bass. For example, 1kHz tone at 60dB and a 20hz tone at 100dB share the same loudness(Phon) curve.

6)"Decibel" is used to measure loudness of a sound". "Phon" is used to describe someone's *perception* of that loudness.

7)Misunderstanding the research behind the equal loudness curves is primarily responsible for the audio fallacy of "humans cannot hear under 20hz".


16-25hz the XV15se averages about 6.5dB more....so slightly more than double.
31-50hz the XV15se averages about 2.5dB more....so a little under "50% more". (in other words it would take almost 3 XS15se to = 2 XV15se.

From 16-35hz it is just about double again.

Tom V.
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