Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 416 - AVS Forum
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Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers > Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread
climber07's Avatar climber07 04:50 PM 06-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by leadliner View Post
i got my confirmation today the xv15se is on the way
Dude

Sweet

Mike Butny's Avatar Mike Butny 05:46 PM 06-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
I believe that completely. However, a lot of what I have seen says that when said sealed sub is placed behind a curtain, and eq'd flat with various similar quality ported/horn/sealed alignments, people are unable to determine which alignement they are listening to. It is natural to form preferences for things, especially when pre-conceived biases come into play....they can make us hear what we want to. However, perception is reality. If one perceives a better sound due to a sub being sealed rather than ported, then that is what one perceives. Again, if a certain alignment of sub sounds better to someone, then it is true.

My suggestion is more for people shopping for a new sub, in that they should not assume sealed sounds better for music compared to ported or horn or whatever....I just don't think that is the case. Again, most preferences fly out the window when the curtain is drawn. I believe it is the same thing with expensive amps. If a person spends several thousand dollars on an extremely expensive amp and then notices more air in the vocals and a better soundstage, improved clarity on vocals, deeper crisper bass, then it is money well spent, even though they would likely not be able to tell the difference between amps if they did not know/see what they were listening to. Perception is reality.

I had a few ported/ vented subs before and I thought they were tons of fun when it came to movies but I was after a higher fidelity sound ( tighter, crisp, snap ) so I went with a sealed sub and I noticed it right away, now this was 14 years ago and I sure technology has advanced but I'm still bias towards Sealed subs. I remember Widescreen review Special Subwoofer edition and Richard Hardesty noted that if you are after high fidelity sound and music matters then stick with a sealed design, now this was 15 years ago too and as I said technology has advanced. I did talk to Tom a few weeks back and thought about returning my XS30 for dual XV15's ( since that route I would have dual subs sooner ) and he said if I had 1 XS30se and 1 XV15se in my room that he would have no doubt that I would be returning the XV15se and keeping my XS30se. I like sealed subs and I love dual designed subs so the XS30se was a no brainer for me.
FattyMcButterPants 05:52 PM 06-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by leadliner View Post
i got my confirmation today the xv15se is on the way
Lucky guy!
bear123's Avatar bear123 06:25 PM 06-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
I had a few ported/ vented subs before and I thought they were tons of fun when it came to movies but I was after a higher fidelity sound ( tighter, crisp, snap ) so I went with a sealed sub and I noticed it right away, now this was 14 years ago and I sure technology has advanced but I'm still bias towards Sealed subs. I remember Widescreen review Special Subwoofer edition and Richard Hardesty noted that if you are after high fidelity sound and music matters then stick with a sealed design, now this was 15 years ago too and as I said technology has advanced. I did talk to Tom a few weeks back and thought about returning my XS30 for dual XV15's ( since that route I would have dual subs sooner ) and he said if I had 1 XS30se and 1 XV15se in my room that he would have no doubt that I would be returning the XV15se and keeping my XS30se. I like sealed subs and I love dual designed subs so the XS30se was a no brainer for me.
I had a single XS30 and I REALLY liked it a lot. However, having matching dual subs was a top priority for me and dual XS30's were out of budget. So I have dual XV15's which for me personally, was a better option than ANY single sub, due to my rooms horrible FR with a single sub. I do think technology has changed a lot when it comes to subwoofers...after all 5 or ten years ago you could not even approach the performance available now from affordable ID subs. I do think for music only, sealed is a better option, but mainly because they are smaller and cheaper than a comparable ported sub(due to the large cab/shipping etc). No reason to spend money on high output around port tune that won't be used on music. The XS30 sure had some incredible output with music.
bear123's Avatar bear123 06:36 PM 06-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by oshia86 View Post
You mean to tell me my sub might be broken? Yes, you say?

"Wifey, the sub is broken and I need a new one NOW!!!"

That'll work, right?


All kidding aside, I'll try to investigate more tonight. Like I said, it only happens during movies, and as low as -20db. That isn't something that is unreasonable, right? Also, I wasn't really saying the XV15se would have port noise, I was just pointing at it seems "too good to be true" that something wouldn't.
I think I can see the problem here. -20 MV does not seem to be all that loud for movies, reasonable enough even with wife and family right? Well lets look at the SPL requirement of you sub at that level. Reference level demands 115 dB peaks from the sub, plus an additional 6 dB of bass redirected from a 5 channel surround system crossed over at 80 Hz, so 115-121 dB peaks.

At -20 MV, with subs 6 dB hot, your sub needs to be able to play -14 from reference, which is 101-107 dB. The PL200 has a MAX BURST of 84 dB at 20 Hz, 96 dB at 25 Hz, and 102 dB at 31.5 Hz. So even at 31 Hz, your sub is being pushed up to and beyond its capabilities, and is no where near capable at 20 or 25. That is why people experience such dramatic increases in performance when going through multiple subwoofer upgrades...its quite surprising how much capability is needed to get clean, uncompressed playback down to 16 Hz. I would venture to say that most subs, expecially budget sub, when approaching advertised max burst output, are going to start objecting. Even at what we consider moderate volumes.

Now bump your MV to -15. At 6 dB hot you are asking your sub to now produce peaks of 106-112 dB. How many subs do you see that can do that down to 16? Even duals?

I know that I certainly underestimated, by a long shot, how much output it takes for clean playback even at moderate levels. That's why my sub budget started at 5-$600 and went to $1700


I think that considering ones preferred MV level for movies, add in how hot you like to run your subs, add 5 dB just in case, and figure out the SPL needed for clean playback. This should put you in the ballpark of how much subwoofer(s) you need.
oshia86's Avatar oshia86 08:31 PM 06-25-2014
My system was setup with MultiEQ Xt. The hottest I run my sub currently is +3d. I just checked, it really seems like port noise to me. I took videos but I'm not real sure how well they would turn out from my cell phone. I played The Pod scene from WOTW and most of the time there is noise, the driver is hardly moving.
cableguy301's Avatar cableguy301 09:28 PM 06-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by oshia86 View Post
My system was setup with MultiEQ Xt. The hottest I run my sub currently is +3d. I just checked, it really seems like port noise to me. I took videos but I'm not real sure how well they would turn out from my cell phone. I played The Pod scene from WOTW and most of the time there is noise, the driver is hardly moving.


think u will have no trouble with a pair of xs 30 se
cableguy301's Avatar cableguy301 09:36 PM 06-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Hi Cableguy301,

1)by lower bass waves, I'm thinking you mean frequency? If so, you are correct. Our hearing loses sensitivity as frequencies drop. I recently made a big post about this I will copy/paste.


Understanding the "Equal Loudness Curves".

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...nd/eqloud.html

Admittedly a proper examination of the equal loudness curves is quite beyond the scope of a "tip of the day". But here are a few basic points.

1)We often hear "it takes 10dB to sound like "double" the loudness. This is true but it is referenced to 1kHz. This changes at the frequency extremes but stays remarkably accurate regardless of the loudness.

2)Contrary to some opinion a speaker should "not" be engineered to look like these graphs.

3)Notice our hearing is most sensitive in the 3kHz - 5khz range. Nails on the caulk board or a baby's cry anyone? It is no accident that our hearing is most sensitive in conjunction with our offspring expressing signs of discomfort of course. Call it divine intervention or evolution---either way....the baby is getting you up in the middle of the night..

4) Under 100hz it takes much less than 10dB to be perceived as a doubling of the loudness.(remember, going from one curve to the next on these graphs represent a perceived doubling of loudness.) For example, at 20hz and 90dB it only takes about 5dB for "double the apparent loudness"

5)Notice how insensitive our ears are in the deep bass. For example, 1kHz tone at 60dB and a 20hz tone at 100dB share the same loudness(Phon) curve.

6)"Decibel" is used to measure loudness of a sound". "Phon" is used to describe someone's *perception* of that loudness.

7)Misunderstanding the research behind the equal loudness curves is primarily responsible for the audio fallacy of "humans cannot hear under 20hz".


16-25hz the XV15se averages about 6.5dB more....so slightly more than double.
31-50hz the XV15se averages about 2.5dB more....so a little under "50% more". (in other words it would take almost 3 XS15se to = 2 XV15se.

From 16-35hz it is just about double again.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio


thanks for the great feed back Tom.. sorta blows my mind trying to understand it...


do I need a sub with 125 db output at 20hz to enjoy 95 db music in phons?


thanks...
oshia86's Avatar oshia86 06:00 AM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by cableguy301 View Post
think u will have no trouble with a pair of xs 30 se
I wish. I honestly don't think that will be in the cards when the time comes. Even if I did, I think I'm pretty much stuck at co-locating them as that will be the only spot I have to put the box. I'm really hoping the XV15se is enough in itself.

How does the XS30se compare to the XV15se as far as output? Not sure I would be able to stretch the budget that much.
JT78681's Avatar JT78681 06:34 AM 06-26-2014
How difficult do you guys think it would be to incorporate an XS15se right behind my couch (the MLP) and have it play nicely with my dual FV15HP's up front?
basshead81's Avatar basshead81 07:37 AM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
How difficult do you guys think it would be to incorporate an XS15se right behind my couch (the MLP) and have it play nicely with my dual FV15HP's up front?
It probably could be done with some serious effort but I woul not recomend it. Better off with a XV15se.
basshead81's Avatar basshead81 07:39 AM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by oshia86 View Post
I wish. I honestly don't think that will be in the cards when the time comes. Even if I did, I think I'm pretty much stuck at co-locating them as that will be the only spot I have to put the box. I'm really hoping the XV15se is enough in itself.

How does the XS30se compare to the XV15se as far as output? Not sure I would be able to stretch the budget that much.
How loud do you listen? The XV15se will have the advantage in the 16-30hz, the XS30se will have the advantage below 16hz and above 30hz.
bear123's Avatar bear123 07:42 AM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
It probably could be done with some serious effort but I woul not recomend it. Better off with a XV15se.

Not sure I agree Basshead. Typically mixing ported and sealed alignments is a bad idea due to cancellation in low bass (below 30 Hz), where the different roll offs and phase differences cause cancellation.

However, with the shallow roll off that the FV15HP's have down to 10 Hz, the XS15 would likely match up even better than a ported sub for this application. In fact, Dominguez(guy who updates the ULF thread), runs FV15's with his sealed 21" DIYs with great efffect and a very flat response.

So I think a near field XS15 could work well here.
JT78681's Avatar JT78681 07:52 AM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Not sure I agree Basshead. Typically mixing ported and sealed alignments is a bad idea due to cancellation in low bass (below 30 Hz), where the different roll offs and phase differences cause cancellation.

However, with the shallow roll off that the FV15HP's have down to 10 Hz, the XS15 would likely match up even better than a ported sub for this application. In fact, Dominguez(guy who updates the ULF thread), runs FV15's with his sealed 21" DIYs with great efffect and a very flat response.

So I think a near field XS15 could work well here.
This was my thought process too, but of course you explained it better because your more knowledgeable than I am when it comes to this stuff. I figured since the FV15HP digs so deep it wouldn't be an issue running a sealed sub nearfield just for some extra excitement.
basshead81's Avatar basshead81 07:57 AM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Not sure I agree Basshead. Typically mixing ported and sealed alignments is a bad idea due to cancellation in low bass (below 30 Hz), where the different roll offs and phase differences cause cancellation.

However, with the shallow roll off that the FV15HP's have down to 10 Hz, the XS15 would likely match up even better than a ported sub for this application. In fact, Dominguez(guy who updates the ULF thread), runs FV15's with his sealed 21" DIYs with great efffect and a very flat response.

So I think a near field XS15 could work well here.
Yea but I think you missed the part where Dom said it took some effort to get that response. JT sent his mic back out of frustration, so I would not recomend somebody attempting this without measuring gear and a EQ device. Its not going to be a plug and play situation getting those subs to play nice together...

And I am not sure where you get the shallow roll off down to 10hz. The FV15HP in 1 port rolls of sharply around 14hz.

Attached: Screenshot_2014-06-26-10-02-54.jpg (81.7 KB) 
JT78681's Avatar JT78681 08:02 AM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Yea but I think you missed the part where Dom said it took some effort to get that response. JT sent his mic back out of frustration, so I would not recomend somebody attempting this without measuring gear and a EQ device. Its not going to be a plug and play situation getting those subs to play nice together...
You are correct I did send it back. I realize that if I were to attempt this I would have to order another mic and probably minidsp. I was just wondering if it could work and if I could get it to sound good.
bear123's Avatar bear123 08:07 AM 06-26-2014
Maybe Tom can chime in with his opinion, but the FV15 does not roll off at 14...maybe in two port mode. one port is flat to below 12.5...port tune is 12 Hz. Roll off is similar on data-bass...the FV15 may actually be a touch shallower. Might be worth shooting Dom a PM and see what issues he had. I know my low bass output does clearly drop when my subs get out of phase, so maybe some careful phase adjustment and REW sweeps could get them dialed in?

Edit: I was looking at the max burst graph...I see the base response does show the roll off you are talking about. Things might get difficult in that area.

By the way, how do you get the images to actually show full size in your post vs just being listed as a thumbnail?
basshead81's Avatar basshead81 08:25 AM 06-26-2014
Manage attatchments, upload picture, click on the link created, copy the thumbnail url in your browser, click the little yellow picture icon in the message header and paste the img.url.
Magibeg's Avatar Magibeg 08:51 AM 06-26-2014
I really hope Tom gets his supplies in today, suspense is a killer.
FattyMcButterPants 09:12 AM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magibeg View Post
I really hope Tom gets his supplies in today, suspense is a killer.
+1. I'm dyin' over here!
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar Tom Vodhanel 09:27 AM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magibeg View Post
I really hope Tom gets his supplies in today, suspense is a killer.

Amplifiers are "out for delivery". But we have been unable to determine the exact timing. Even if we do not receive them until mid/late afternoon we'll stay late and get everything built for shipment tomorrow morning. If we get lucky and they show up soon(by say 1pm) we should be able to get quite a few shipped later this afternoon.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Magibeg's Avatar Magibeg 09:30 AM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Amplifiers are "out for delivery". But we have been unable to determine the exact timing. Even if we do not receive them until mid/late afternoon we'll stay late and get everything built for shipment tomorrow morning. If we get lucky and they show up soon(by say 1pm) we should be able to get quite a few shipped later this afternoon.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Don't work too late, I want you to be fully alert when you're working on mine!
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar Tom Vodhanel 09:38 AM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by cableguy301 View Post
thanks for the great feed back Tom.. sorta blows my mind trying to understand it...


do I need a sub with 125 db output at 20hz to enjoy 95 db music in phons?


thanks...
If you are looking at the PHON graphs remember what they represent....6)"Decibel" is used to measure loudness of a sound". "Phon" is used to describe someone's *perception* of that loudness.

What the Phon graph tells you is how our hearing sensitivity changes with frequency(and volume).

If you are referencing the 90dB Phon trace at 1 kilohertz just following that line up and down(in frequency) and you can see how loud other frequencies would need to be to "sound" just as loud as 90dB/1000 hertz. For example, move down to say 50hz and you can see it is around 105dB now(following the 90dB/1000hertz PHON trace). What this means is....a 50hz tone needs to be 15dB louder compared to a 1000hertz tone for it to sound the same(loudness) to us.

Really, this has little to do with how much subwoofer you may or may not need for music applications..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
FattyMcButterPants 09:39 AM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Amplifiers are "out for delivery". But we have been unable to determine the exact timing. Even if we do not receive them until mid/late afternoon we'll stay late and get everything built for shipment tomorrow morning. If we get lucky and they show up soon(by say 1pm) we should be able to get quite a few shipped later this afternoon.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
You guys are awesome! Pretty great customer service right there, and I'm all for it so long as quality isn't sacrificed.
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar Tom Vodhanel 09:39 AM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magibeg View Post
Don't work too late, I want you to be fully alert when you're working on mine!
Jim does all the DSP work and the final QC on every product we ship (how many company owner's do that?) so you are in very good hands..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
sarlindescent 01:25 PM 06-26-2014
Well been going back and forth for 2 weeks and finally just pulled the trigger on a XS30se. Going for 0 subs to this might help my audio a tiny bit.
dsrussell's Avatar dsrussell 01:35 PM 06-26-2014
^^ Congratulations! You are going to be amazed...
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar Tom Vodhanel 02:07 PM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
You guys are awesome! Pretty great customer service right there, and I'm all for it so long as quality isn't sacrificed.
Amps got here earlier this afternoon. We were able to get a good number out on fedex today. The rest are being built now and will ship tomorrow morning. Anyone who ordered on 6-18 or later will ship tomorrow morning. 6-17 or earlier, you should have tracking info..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
dominguez1's Avatar dominguez1 04:21 PM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Yea but I think you missed the part where Dom said it took some effort to get that response. JT sent his mic back out of frustration, so I would not recomend somebody attempting this without measuring gear and a EQ device. Its not going to be a plug and play situation getting those subs to play nice together...
+1

I would not recommend mixing sealed and ported unless you have the equipment to integrate the two. You'll need variable phase control on all subs, a measuring device like omnimic or rew, and the eq device that can eq your sealed and ported separately.

Without a manual eq, you could get lucky with audyssey, but that's a big bet imo.

Having said that, even integrating ported subs with different tunes, you'd run into similar problems.

Just get the b stock fv15hp already........
ahblaza's Avatar ahblaza 04:51 PM 06-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Jim does all the DSP work and the final QC on every product we ship (how many company owner's do that?) so you are in very good hands..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
I can attest to that, you are definitely in good hands, now if it was Tom doing the QC, I don't know Just kidding my friend, I couldn't resist.
Cheers Jeff
Tags: Xs30 , Velodyne Sms 1 In Room Bass Correction Kit With Included Microphone , Denon Avr 3313ci Receiver , Denon Avr 4520ci Receiver , Power Sound Audio , Xv15 , Power Sound Audio Triax , Room Equilizer Wizard Rew , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver
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