Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 432 - AVS Forum
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post #12931 of 16576 Old 07-24-2014, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by LowTech1 View Post
You would get a lot more midbass. That would be a great question for Tom. I know there are a few guys that use an xv15 with an xs30 and say its great.
best to stick with sealed+sealed or vented+vented with our products. You CAN make vented+sealed work and perhaps work very well. But, barring rare exceptions, you will be better off sticking to similar subs.

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post #12932 of 16576 Old 07-24-2014, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by LowTech1 View Post
I'm surprised no one is jumping all over my XS30..
I am curious about this sub purely because I could put it in a small room where I currently have an outlaw lfm-1 ex (<1000 cu ft) and experiment with room gain. But then I have to sell the outlaw....
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post #12933 of 16576 Old 07-24-2014, 12:50 PM
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well it's official. The local deal fell through on the 2 used XV15's because we are both paranoid lol. Tom just hooked it up on 2 new XV15se's. Ordered today, shipping today. I can't flippin wait! I can only hope to get them set up while my wife is at work to see if she even notices
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post #12934 of 16576 Old 07-24-2014, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by drwinlied View Post
well it's official. The local deal fell through on the 2 used XV15's because we are both paranoid lol. Tom just hooked it up on 2 new XV15se's. Ordered today, shipping today. I can't flippin wait! I can only hope to get them set up while my wife is at work to see if she even notices
You would've upgraded in a week or two anyway...

Being paranoid in this day and age is probably a good thing. You can't be too careful. Either one of you could be taken for a ride.

Welcome to the fold my brother. I can't wait to hear your thoughts. I would love to be a fly on your wall when you get them set up and crankin'...

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post #12935 of 16576 Old 07-24-2014, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
I am curious about this sub purely because I could put it in a small room where I currently have an outlaw lfm-1 ex (<1000 cu ft) and experiment with room gain. But then I have to sell the outlaw....

You'll get extension down to the 4hz to 7hz range with just *tons* of mid and upper bass slam factor. You'd probably be looking at 112-115dB all the way down to 10hz....mid and upper bass headroom? 121-127dB.

Which extension mode are you using with the 1ex?

Tom V.
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post #12936 of 16576 Old 07-24-2014, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by climber07 View Post
You would've upgraded in a week or two anyway...

Being paranoid in this day and age is probably a good thing. You can't be too careful. Either one of you could be taken for a ride.

Welcome to the fold my brother. I can't wait to hear your thoughts. I would love to be a fly on your wall when you get them set up and crankin'...
exactly right on the upgrade. That's also why I just went with 2 right off the bat. I know me. this is what I am eventually going to do...just get it over with. This way my wife doesn't have to listen to me talk (to myself) about it for that whole week before I upgrade anyway.

Considering my room is less than 1600cu.ft, i'm hoping for some literal "heart pounding action", as 'they' say... haha
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post #12937 of 16576 Old 07-24-2014, 01:30 PM
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I hate all you guys with your tiny rooms. I'm pushing well over 5000 cu ft in my open living room.

Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #12938 of 16576 Old 07-24-2014, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by drwinlied View Post
exactly right on the upgrade. That's also why I just went with 2 right off the bat. I know me. this is what I am eventually going to do...just get it over with. This way my wife doesn't have to listen to me talk (to myself) about it for that whole week before I upgrade anyway.

Considering my room is less than 1600cu.ft, i'm hoping for some literal "heart pounding action", as 'they' say... haha
At 1600 cu ft, you're going to get quite the experience.

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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
I hate all you guys with your tiny rooms. I'm pushing well over 5000 cu ft in my open living room.
I hear you on that one. My room is 4300+ cu ft and opens into a large two story foyer on one side. I still get impressive bass at my listening positions. I have pushed 118 dB at -7 dB on the dial... 13 feet away from my subs.

Onkyo TX-NR3009 - Emotiva XPA-2 300 WPC - Polk Audio RTiA9 Mains - CSiA6 Center - F/XiA6 Surrounds - Dual PSA XV-15se Subwoofers - Epson 5030UB Projector - Monoprice Multi-format 106" HD Gray screen - Samsung BD-F5900 3D Bluray - WDTV Live HD Media Player with 6TB External Storage - Nintendo Wii - XBox 360 - Logitech Harmony One, and custom DIY media console...
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post #12939 of 16576 Old 07-24-2014, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
I hate all you guys with your tiny rooms. I'm pushing well over 5000 cu ft in my open living room.
I hate all you guys with your medium sized rooms. I'm pushing nearly 10,000 cu ft in my open living room.

Sorry, I had to.
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post #12940 of 16576 Old 07-24-2014, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
I hate all you guys with your tiny rooms. I'm pushing well over 5000 cu ft in my open living room.
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Originally Posted by climber07 View Post
I hear you on that one. My room is 4300+ cu ft and opens into a large two story foyer on one side.
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Originally Posted by Zee-man View Post
I hate all you guys with your medium sized rooms. I'm pushing nearly 10,000 cu ft in my open living room.
1st world problems...
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post #12941 of 16576 Old 07-24-2014, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
You'll get extension down to the 4hz to 7hz range with just *tons* of mid and upper bass slam factor. You'd probably be looking at 112-115dB all the way down to 10hz....mid and upper bass headroom? 121-127dB.

Which extension mode are you using with the 1ex?

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
that sounds pretty insane, talk about beastly! I am running one port open right now. I measured with an spl meter and actually get more 20 hz output out of my dual xv15se's in the 6000+ cu ft living room that I do with the 1ex in the <1000 cu foot room in max extension mode.... By quite a bit too (4db or so). I find that interesting, and surprising.
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post #12942 of 16576 Old 07-24-2014, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
that sounds pretty insane, talk about beastly! I am running one port open right now. I measured with an spl meter and actually get more 20 hz output out of my dual xv15se's in the 6000+ cu ft living room that I do with the 1ex in the <1000 cu foot room in max extension mode.... By quite a bit too (4db or so). I find that interesting, and surprising.
I'm not surprised. The 1ex is a good value at 599 to be sure....but it's really not comparable to the XV15se. (I know a few insist otherwise but their POV is based more on personal grudges than anything of value to other forum members imo).

In 1 port mode you might be running into quite a bit of ringing too.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=58

That hump in the response down low matched with the sharp "knee" is sort of worst case for a smaller room like yours. Instead of taking advantage of the room transfer function to get 5hz extension you may be getting into all sorts of audible ringing/decay issues.

If you have a chance to try a sealed sub that has a shallow rolloff I think you would like the effect. The sb2000, xs15, ect.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #12943 of 16576 Old 07-24-2014, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
I'm not surprised. The 1ex is a good value at 599 to be sure....but it's really not comparable to the XV15se. (I know a few insist otherwise but their POV is based more on personal grudges than anything of value to other forum members imo).

In 1 port mode you might be running into quite a bit of ringing too.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=58

That hump in the response down low matched with the sharp "knee" is sort of worst case for a smaller room like yours. Instead of taking advantage of the room transfer function to get 5hz extension you may be getting into all sorts of audible ringing/decay issues.

If you have a chance to try a sealed sub that has a shallow rolloff I think you would like the effect. The sb2000, xs15, ect.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
I was surprised for a few reasons 1) the outlaw is a larger sub than the xv15se (enclosure wise) 2) the room for the outlaw is 1/6 the size. Even subtracting the effect of dual xv15se, it still reaches higher spl at 20hz in a room 6x as large! Seems crazy out of a smaller box, even if the driver is bigger.

Couple questions for you:

1) I was not doing bursts testing, but rather a continuous 20hz sine wave for about 30 seconds (hopefully this isn't hurting the sub). Is there any sort of conversion to max burst performance? (ie +3db or what have you).

2) what are we considering when we claim things provide "extension" to a certain frequency? Is there some sort of standard spl value to consider something sufficiently extended?

Edit: in regards to trying sealed subs in the small room. I may just try that one day, but I won't lie, part of me fears this will lead to crazy upgrades in the big room trying to match it (something like dual stacks of Triax's!)

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post #12944 of 16576 Old 07-24-2014, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
I hate all you guys with your tiny rooms. I'm pushing well over 5000 cu ft in my open living room.
A couple more FV15HP's should help out with that! lol
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post #12945 of 16576 Old 07-24-2014, 11:40 PM
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Or add a triple xs30se. I will post my frequency response with the setup pictures when I get a chance soon but on a quick note - I have a 4300+ sqft room with extensions to rest of the home and I have a triple xs30se. I am loving it, especially for the music. It is like a hammer dropping with a thud and stopping abruptly right in front of you. No extraneous ringing, zilch... nada! It sounds wonderful. The couch, the cabinets and the wooden floor on your feet vibrate when you can't hear audible sounds and the room is dead silent, it feels like the room is awake. One thing that surprised me was when my wife asked why our wall hanged portrait in our second level bedroom was tilted. I knew the second level floors and walls were vibrating but didn't think the sub were capable of tilting the wall hanging picture. I feigned and asked her whether she moved them!

I try to keep a tab on this forum everyday, send me a pm if you have questions about my setup or user experience.
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A couple more FV15HP's should help out with that! lol

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post #12946 of 16576 Old 07-25-2014, 06:00 AM
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A couple more FV15HP's should help out with that! lol
I'm pretty sure my wife would have me admitted.

Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #12947 of 16576 Old 07-25-2014, 09:09 AM
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I hate all you guys with your tiny rooms. I'm pushing well over 5000 cu ft in my open living room.
My room is 14×10 I wish I had a bigger room for more subs.
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post #12948 of 16576 Old 07-25-2014, 09:17 AM
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and I hate all guys with houses larger than 1000 sf


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I hate all you guys with your tiny rooms. I'm pushing well over 5000 cu ft in my open living room.
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post #12949 of 16576 Old 07-25-2014, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
I was surprised for a few reasons 1) the outlaw is a larger sub than the xv15se (enclosure wise) 2) the room for the outlaw is 1/6 the size. Even subtracting the effect of dual xv15se, it still reaches higher spl at 20hz in a room 6x as large! Seems crazy out of a smaller box, even if the driver is bigger.

Couple questions for you:

1) I was not doing bursts testing, but rather a continuous 20hz sine wave for about 30 seconds (hopefully this isn't hurting the sub). Is there any sort of conversion to max burst performance? (ie +3db or what have you).

2) what are we considering when we claim things provide "extension" to a certain frequency? Is there some sort of standard spl value to consider something sufficiently extended?

Edit: in regards to trying sealed subs in the small room. I may just try that one day, but I won't lie, part of me fears this will lead to crazy upgrades in the big room trying to match it (something like dual stacks of Triax's!)
1)Ouch. Don't do that again, please. If you must use a steady state tone like a sine wave, please limit it to a few seconds. You are much better off using a ramped burst for max output checks anyway as those more closely simulate actual source material (film, music). RMS to PEAK = +3dB. But this assumes the amplifiers aren't in any sort of limiting mode and the voice coils aren't glowing hot. With 30 seconds worth of sines, hard to say.

2)usually is it the relationship to the bottom of the FR to the majority of the operating bandwidth.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #12950 of 16576 Old 07-25-2014, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
1)Ouch. Don't do that again, please. If you must use a steady state tone like a sine wave, please limit it to a few seconds. You are much better off using a ramped burst for max output checks anyway as those more closely simulate actual source material (film, music). RMS to PEAK = +3dB. But this assumes the amplifiers aren't in any sort of limiting mode and the voice coils aren't glowing hot. With 30 seconds worth of sines, hard to say.

2)usually is it the relationship to the bottom of the FR to the majority of the operating bandwidth.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
What about using those single freq sine waves as moderate levels (say 75dB) for longer periods? When doing a sub crawl and moving the mic around the room to find nulls and peaks, that change position with frequency, I was using those tones at moderate levels.

Is this okay?

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post #12951 of 16576 Old 07-25-2014, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
1)Ouch. Don't do that again, please. If you must use a steady state tone like a sine wave, please limit it to a few seconds. You are much better off using a ramped burst for max output checks anyway as those more closely simulate actual source material (film, music). RMS to PEAK = +3dB. But this assumes the amplifiers aren't in any sort of limiting mode and the voice coils aren't glowing hot. With 30 seconds worth of sines, hard to say.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Ha! I should clarify the thirty seconds included the ramp up and back down. Only maintained those levels for 5 seconds or less. It didn't register with me that it might not be a smart thing to do until afterwards.... On the plus side the xv15se's really handled it like champs and suffered no damage.

No harm / no foul, and lesson learned.
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post #12952 of 16576 Old 07-25-2014, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by climber07 View Post
What about using those single freq sine waves as moderate levels (say 75dB) for longer periods? When doing a sub crawl and moving the mic around the room to find nulls and peaks, that change position with frequency, I was using those tones at moderate levels.

Is this okay?
In your case, 75dB should be okay for 20-30 seconds max. Then give the voice coil 30 seconds to cool down. This is being overly cautious...especially with stacked XV15s. In a typical room environment dual stacked XV15s would need < 1 watt to hit 75dB. Better safe than sorry though. We need to remember, one small mistake could easily damage the subwoofer(s). Let's say someone sets their SPL meter to A weighting accidentally....and keeps cranking up the 20hz signal wondering why the meter isn't reading. Byt the time they figure out the meter setting was wrong, the sub(s) may be damaged.

One sure sign things are heating up is if you smell sort of a chemical odor from the sub. That is the adhesives on the voice coil getting so hot they begin to outgas, coil deformation occurs soon afterwards, and then you get "scratching" as the cone moves in/out.


Sounds like a new "tip of the day" needs writing..

Tom V.
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post #12953 of 16576 Old 07-25-2014, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
Ha! I should clarify the thirty seconds included the ramp up and back down. Only maintained those levels for 5 seconds or less. It didn't register with me that it might not be a smart thing to do until afterwards.... On the plus side the xv15se's really handled it like champs and suffered no damage.

No harm / no foul, and lesson learned.

The motors in the SE drivers are stout. We're around the 800w mark per the 426a standard if I remember correctly. That is basically pink noise, at 800 watts....for 8 hours straight..

I tend to be overly cautious as I would much rather have folks limit their "testing" rather than tell them their driver replacement won't be covered under warranty.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #12954 of 16576 Old 07-25-2014, 11:53 AM
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Wink

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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
In your case, 75dB should be okay for 20-30 seconds max. Then give the voice coil 30 seconds to cool down. This is being overly cautious...especially with stacked XV15s. In a typical room environment dual stacked XV15s would need < 1 watt to hit 75dB. Better safe than sorry though. We need to remember, one small mistake could easily damage the subwoofer(s). Let's say someone sets their SPL meter to A weighting accidentally....and keeps cranking up the 20hz signal wondering why the meter isn't reading. Byt the time they figure out the meter setting was wrong, the sub(s) may be damaged.

One sure sign things are heating up is if you smell sort of a chemical odor from the sub. That is the adhesives on the voice coil getting so hot they begin to outgas, coil deformation occurs soon afterwards, and then you get "scratching" as the cone moves in/out.


Sounds like a new "tip of the day" needs writing..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
It curious that you mention the 1W at 75dB typical. I have a Watts Up Pro that I connect to the wall. I didn't see more than 25 - 45W used while playing some fairly heavy bass music (Black Eyed Peas)... These digital... erm, class D amps are very efficient. My XPA-2 draws a bunch of watts being class AB...

Chemical smell? That's conformal coating... Being an electronics technician, my nose is very in tune with that smell. That and the smell of the Genie (o-zone and blue smoke) from burnt components. Overly cautious is my mantra!

Onkyo TX-NR3009 - Emotiva XPA-2 300 WPC - Polk Audio RTiA9 Mains - CSiA6 Center - F/XiA6 Surrounds - Dual PSA XV-15se Subwoofers - Epson 5030UB Projector - Monoprice Multi-format 106" HD Gray screen - Samsung BD-F5900 3D Bluray - WDTV Live HD Media Player with 6TB External Storage - Nintendo Wii - XBox 360 - Logitech Harmony One, and custom DIY media console...
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post #12955 of 16576 Old 07-25-2014, 02:31 PM
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I have not been around here lately as I have had my hands full. My question is are the new SE drivers better than the 1st gen Triax drivers? Not sure if the current Triax drivers are the same now or not. I completely fine and have no desire to change anything, but just curious.
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post #12956 of 16576 Old 07-25-2014, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by climber07 View Post
It curious that you mention the 1W at 75dB typical. I have a Watts Up Pro that I connect to the wall. I didn't see more than 25 - 45W used while playing some fairly heavy bass music (Black Eyed Peas)... These digital... erm, class D amps are very efficient. My XPA-2 draws a bunch of watts being class AB...

Chemical smell? That's conformal coating... Being an electronics technician, my nose is very in tune with that smell. That and the smell of the Genie (o-zone and blue smoke) from burnt components. Overly cautious is my mantra!
Yeah, the whole system is pretty efficient. The enclosure design and driver sens also factor into the equation. It is really about total system synergy. Tremendous performance doesn't mean much if the system is unstable, doesn't self limit, is just *huge* in size, or simply costs too much. When we look at what the XV15se offers in performance, stability, etc....all combined with a reasonable size.....it's a winner in my book..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #12957 of 16576 Old 07-25-2014, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
I have not been around here lately as I have had my hands full. My question is are the new SE drivers better than the 1st gen Triax drivers? Not sure if the current Triax drivers are the same now or not. I completely fine and have no desire to change anything, but just curious.
The Triax has shipped with only one driver model. The 15" *Q* variant from Scott Atwell(Fi). We are always experimenting with different ideas but at the moment we don't have any set plans to change the Triax design.

The original driver we had planned for the Triax never worked out due to vendor issues (incompetence).

Comparing the current SE drivers to the "incomp" drivers that we never used......the SE drivers do measure better in the Triax design.


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post #12958 of 16576 Old 07-25-2014, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
In your case, 75dB should be okay for 20-30 seconds max. Then give the voice coil 30 seconds to cool down. This is being overly cautious...especially with stacked XV15s. In a typical room environment dual stacked XV15s would need < 1 watt to hit 75dB. Better safe than sorry though. We need to remember, one small mistake could easily damage the subwoofer(s). Let's say someone sets their SPL meter to A weighting accidentally....and keeps cranking up the 20hz signal wondering why the meter isn't reading. Byt the time they figure out the meter setting was wrong, the sub(s) may be damaged.

One sure sign things are heating up is if you smell sort of a chemical odor from the sub. That is the adhesives on the voice coil getting so hot they begin to outgas, coil deformation occurs soon afterwards, and then you get "scratching" as the cone moves in/out.


Sounds like a new "tip of the day" needs writing..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Ever since I read this at work I've been dying to get home and lightly press on the driver to see if it scratches.... Glad to report nothing of the sort.

Also a new tip of the day sounds great, you know, for those of is with measly 3lb brains.
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post #12959 of 16576 Old 07-25-2014, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
Ever since I read this at work I've been dying to get home and lightly press on the driver to see if it scratches.... Glad to report nothing of the sort.

Also a new tip of the day sounds great, you know, for those of is with measly 3lb brains.
This type of damage is usually *very* audible. It can put the amp into "protect" mode(or worse) and you will usually hear very distinct noise(s) from the subwoofer when in use.

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post #12960 of 16576 Old 07-25-2014, 06:06 PM
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watched two movies on my new PSA XS15se now and I'm digging it. Not only does this puppy dig DEEP but the quality of bass is much nicer than that of my Klipsch.


I ran Audyssey XT32 and the AVR set the trim to -8.5 on one(PSA) and -7 on the other(Klipsch). Running them 6db hot doesn't seem enough bass for me. 10db is too much. I'll end up somewhere in between there. Keep in mind I listen at -25db to -15db depending on whether the wife is watching with me or not.

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Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

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Xs30 , Velodyne Sms 1 In Room Bass Correction Kit With Included Microphone , Denon Avr 3313ci Receiver , Denon Avr 4520ci Receiver , Power Sound Audio , Xv15 , Power Sound Audio Triax , Room Equilizer Wizard Rew , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver
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