Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 435 - AVS Forum
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post #13021 of 13882 Old 07-28-2014, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Correct. If you have the XS15se a second would be $699. Which, with my obvious bias included, is a *heck* of a deal..

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So the dual sub discount is typically right around 5% or so correct? What does PSA do for these people that start buying more than 2? Is it still the 5%?
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post #13022 of 13882 Old 07-28-2014, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Did you re-run Audyssey after boosting the subs gain? If not, you need to.
Yep, every little tweak and change made to your sub requires re-running Audyssey I wish it weren't true but it is. Does anybody else find running Audyssey tedious? I know its a great tool and all but to be honest I really hate doing it for some reason. Probably because with three kids in the house it's really hard to keep the house quiet long enough to run through eight times.
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post #13023 of 13882 Old 07-28-2014, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
So the dual sub discount is typically right around 5% or so correct? What does PSA do for these people that start buying more than 2? Is it still the 5%?
Usually it is 5%-10%. Depends a bit on several variables.

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post #13024 of 13882 Old 07-28-2014, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
That's about right, just depends on where folks live. We start by sending out a box for your amp. Then once we get that back, we reprogram it and send it back to you with the new SE 15" driver. So if you are say 2 days away.....figure 6 business days.


Here is a fedex ground map showing the transit times from our skunk works. Purple = 1 day, Blue = 2, Orange =3, Green = 4

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Cool. Thanks!
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post #13025 of 13882 Old 07-28-2014, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by gbreda View Post
Not sure if you have done this, but after reading some suggestions by Tom on the XS30, I went with a Y splitter to both inputs. It resulted in a big difference on my first edition XS30 for movies. Much more tactile response and pressurization that I was looking for.

Now the ongoing debate on upgrading the beast to an XS30se.....I really need to stop reading this thread

How do you like the Denon 4000 as a preamp? I have been eying that for my system as well.
Tom, do you recommend trying this? And if so why? I would love to be able to get more out of my XS30, as it sounds good but doesn't pressurize my small room like I thought it would. I have it corner loaded also.
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post #13026 of 13882 Old 07-28-2014, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
The Ysplitter going to both inputs simply raises the input level 3db. You could of achieved the same result by turning up the amp gain. The only benifit of using both inputs is if you have issue with the sub's auto on feature at lower volumes.
Guess I should have read further down the thread...

My auto-on feature has never turned on/off... it just always stay's on... any idea? Would be nice if it worked.
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post #13027 of 13882 Old 07-28-2014, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by jer181 View Post
Tom, do you recommend trying this? And if so why? I would love to be able to get more out of my XS30, as it sounds good but doesn't pressurize my small room like I thought it would. I have it corner loaded also.
Using both inputs does not increase headroom (max output), it simply raises the output level 3db. It is the same thing as turning the sub amp gain up a notch or two, but it still does not give you more overall output. As I previously mentioned using both inputs with a Y adapter is good for those AVR's that have low output voltage. This will increase the input side sensitivity on the sub amp and the auto on function should work better for those that have issues. Another reason to use a Y would be if you have to turn the sub amp gain past 3:00 to get desireable bass output.

The majority of folks issue is auto calibration in the AVR tends to set the bass 3-6db lower then most like. I would set the amp gain
on your XS30 to 2:00, rerun calibration, the sub trim level in the AVR will probably be around -6db. Now manually increase the sub trim level up to around -2 then report back.
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post #13028 of 13882 Old 07-28-2014, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by jer181 View Post
Guess I should have read further down the thread...

My auto-on feature has never turned on/off... it just always stay's on... any idea? Would be nice if it worked.
Where is the gain set on the sub amp and where is the sub trim level set in the AVR? Also is the power switch is set in the middle?
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post #13029 of 13882 Old 07-28-2014, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Did you re-run Audyssey after boosting the subs gain? If not, you need to.
I've tried this a hundred different ways. If I set the sub levels to match at 85db then Audyssey backs the trim all the way to -12. If I match them at 75db, then set the gain levels on the amps to the 85db after it runs, I'm happy with Audyssey's correction (which is -8.5db) I believe. I don't care if it's right or not, its the only way I like the sound.


If I match at 75db and bump the AVR sub levels up by 10db, it still doesn't sound as good as the 85db on the sub gains. Not sure why there is not parity between those two 10db adjustments, but there isn't, it just is not the same. I think the subs being so near-field messes with Audyssey calibration. At 75db sub level matching, it has the gain on the two subs to damn near off.

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post #13030 of 13882 Old 07-28-2014, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by wadec22 View Post
I've tried this a hundred different ways. If I set the sub levels to match at 85db then Audyssey backs the trim all the way to -12. If I match them at 75db, then set the gain levels on the amps to the 85db after it runs, I'm happy with Audyssey's correction (which is -8.5db) I believe. I don't care if it's right or not, its the only way I like the sound.


If I match at 75db and bump the AVR sub levels up by 10db, it still doesn't sound as good as the 85db on the sub gains. Not sure why there is not parity between those two 10db adjustments, but there isn't, it just is not the same. I think the subs being so near-field messes with Audyssey calibration. At 75db sub level matching, it has the gain on the two subs to damn near off.
If you change the amp gain after Audyssey, you must rerun. Set the subs to 85dB when Audyssey runs, after the setup is complete n bump the subs up 10dB from -12 to -2dB. Otherwise, the filter corrections that Audysseyapplies will be wrong and the subs will not blend with the other speakers.
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post #13031 of 13882 Old 07-28-2014, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Where is the gain set on the sub amp and where is the sub trim level set in the AVR? Also is the power switch is set in the middle?
The gain is probably around 1:30-2:00. I'm unsure of the sub trim level is in the AVR, I will check when I get home and report back! I would love it if you could help me dial this in. I am an SPL meter but am a noob and have not had time to sit down and learn how to properly calibrate this sub using the sweep tones in REW. (I do not have the monitoring mic)

And yes it was, I figured I would just turn in to ON as it never turned on/off anyways.
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post #13032 of 13882 Old 07-28-2014, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by climber07 View Post
If you change the amp gain after Audyssey, you must rerun. Set the subs to 85dB when Audyssey runs, after the setup is complete n bump the subs up 10dB from -12 to -2dB. Otherwise, the filter corrections that Audysseyapplies will be wrong and the subs will not blend with the other speakers.
like I said, if I bump the AVR sub level 10db (-12db to -2db) it does NOT have the same effect as bumping the gain from 75db to 85db during SW level matching. It should, but it doesn't.

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post #13033 of 13882 Old 07-28-2014, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Using both inputs does not increase headroom (max output), it simply raises the output level 3db. It is the same thing as turning the sub amp gain up a notch or two, but it still does not give you more overall output. As I previously mentioned using both inputs with a Y adapter is good for those AVR's that have low output voltage. This will increase the input side sensitivity on the sub amp and the auto on function should work better for those that have issues. Another reason to use a Y would be if you have to turn the sub amp gain past 3:00 to get desireable bass output.

The majority of folks issue is auto calibration in the AVR tends to set the bass 3-6db lower then most like. I would set the amp gain
on your XS30 to 2:00, rerun calibration, the sub trim level in the AVR will probably be around -6db. Now manually increase the sub trim level up to around -2 then report back.

Using both inputs will double voltage input and = a 6dB increase in the output levels. This assumes, of course, you aren't hitting any limits. Anyone wanting to experiment with the Y cables....you really can't do any harm unless you clip the input stage(hard to do).

Just get the ones for a few bucks though...no need to spend $20-40 on these..

Basshead pretty much nails it in his post overall. The higher you have the gain knob set on our subs the more likely you may notice audible benefits by using a Y cable. Just be sure to recalibrate after adding the Y. Otherwise you may simply mistake "louder" bass for "better" bass.

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post #13034 of 13882 Old 07-28-2014, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by jer181 View Post
Tom, do you recommend trying this? And if so why? I would love to be able to get more out of my XS30, as it sounds good but doesn't pressurize my small room like I thought it would. I have it corner loaded also.
It can't hurt to try. Just don't spend $$$ on some fancy split. Three or four bucks is fine. Also, as long as you aren't bumping into any ceiling in the signal chain/output capabilities of the sub you'll see a 6dB increase in output levels. Be sure you recalibrate after adding the Y or you'll just think it is more powerful because it is so much louder..

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post #13035 of 13882 Old 07-28-2014, 04:00 PM
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I received my dual xv15se subs today, and did a very basic setup on them. Wow, what a difference right off the bat! I'll post more later, but after dinking around with my receiver settings, I was finally getting some good results. Immediately the subs blended well into our mains, which was nice. The only "problem" is that our family room is the only room of the house that isn't on a slab foundation, as it sits over the garage, and now the entire floor shakes like crazy! I'm sure I'll get used to it, but it was pretty jarring at first.
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post #13036 of 13882 Old 07-28-2014, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by wadec22 View Post
like I said, if I bump the AVR sub level 10db (-12db to -2db) it does NOT have the same effect as bumping the gain from 75db to 85db during SW level matching. It should, but it doesn't.
Are you certain that your sub is set at 75db after Audyssey? I ask because -12 is the lower limit....it could be -12 or it could be -100 (exaggerating), you don't know. You need to re-run Audyssey (first mic position only) until you get the trim in an acceptable range (i.e. -11.5 to -8) before you can make any other adjustments and be confident in your calibration.

Once you get the sub calibrated "in range", only then can you run the full Audyssey calibration.
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post #13037 of 13882 Old 07-28-2014, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by BenjaminKing View Post
I received my dual xv15se subs today, and did a very basic setup on them. Wow, what a difference right off the bat! I'll post more later, but after dinking around with my receiver settings, I was finally getting some good results. Immediately the subs blended well into our mains, which was nice. The only "problem" is that our family room is the only room of the house that isn't on a slab foundation, as it sits over the garage, and now the entire floor shakes like crazy! I'm sure I'll get used to it, but it was pretty jarring at first.
That ain't no "problem"....I wish I had that problem (I live on a slab). Enjoy!
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post #13038 of 13882 Old 07-28-2014, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Are you certain that your sub is set at 75db after Audyssey? I ask because -12 is the lower limit....it could be -12 or it could be -100 (exaggerating), you don't know. You need to re-run Audyssey (first mic position only) until you get the trim in an acceptable range (i.e. -11.5 to -8) before you can make any other adjustments and be confident in your calibration.

Once you get the sub calibrated "in range", only then can you run the full Audyssey calibration.

I understand what you are saying and I understand the Audyssey calibration. I'm just saying I found a way to get it to sound the way I want it to, regardless of whether or not it is correct in they eyes of Audyssey. Prior to getting the gain on the amp set higher, I was disappointed in my purchase and now I'm not. Win for me.

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post #13039 of 13882 Old 07-28-2014, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by wadec22 View Post
like I said, if I bump the AVR sub level 10db (-12db to -2db) it does NOT have the same effect as bumping the gain from 75db to 85db during SW level matching. It should, but it doesn't.
That is strange.

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post #13040 of 13882 Old 07-28-2014, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by BenjaminKing View Post
I received my dual xv15se subs today, and did a very basic setup on them. Wow, what a difference right off the bat! I'll post more later, but after dinking around with my receiver settings, I was finally getting some good results. Immediately the subs blended well into our mains, which was nice. The only "problem" is that our family room is the only room of the house that isn't on a slab foundation, as it sits over the garage, and now the entire floor shakes like crazy! I'm sure I'll get used to it, but it was pretty jarring at first.
Congratulations on the addition of your new twins. The XV15se is a great sub, I'm sure you will find that they are a great addition to your set up.
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post #13041 of 13882 Old 07-29-2014, 02:58 AM
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Have a question, I have a co-worker that got two Polk 660's. I tried to talk him into some PSA, but he gets a great best buy discount. My question is that he said he did not like how the Denon 4520 set his subs to -9, so after Audyessey, he bumped his subs up to +1. I thought that a bit extreme. Is there potential for some damage by doing that? I guess I am trying to understand why running them +10 would be such a great idea.
Thanks for helping out.
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post #13042 of 13882 Old 07-29-2014, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by lizrussspike View Post
Have a question, I have a co-worker that got two Polk 660's. I tried to talk him into some PSA, but he gets a great best buy discount. My question is that he said he did not like how the Denon 4520 set his subs to -9, so after Audyessey, he bumped his subs up to +1. I thought that a bit extreme. Is there potential for some damage by doing that? I guess I am trying to understand why running them +10 would be such a great idea.
Thanks for helping out.
Russ
No real harm to be done as long as he doesn't get to heavy on the + side with the AVR sub out. It's all about preference. Audyssey tends to tame subwoofers a little more than most are used to. I just bought my PSA and as I watch more movies with varying tracks, I continue to bring my initial bass bump down.


I thought I liked mine about 10db hot. After watching a super bass heavy track last night (Titan AE DTS), I'm now down to +6.5db above where Audyssey calibrated me at.

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post #13043 of 13882 Old 07-29-2014, 07:36 AM - Thread Starter
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In general don't go above 0 on your avr. More than and you can clip the output. My guess is its two issues. The subs aren't great so they need to pushed hard to keep up. And as others mentioned Audyssey tends to adjust sub woofers too low.

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post #13044 of 13882 Old 07-29-2014, 08:00 AM
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Thanks for the response, that is what I was thinking. I run my XV15SE about -2, as Audyssey set the PSA to-7. I was thinking that going to the + would be pushing the subs. I will try to convey to him about possible clipping in the near future as he is pushing all the movies with LFE he can get his hands on.

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post #13045 of 13882 Old 07-29-2014, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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As long as he isn't super high into the plus range he should be okay. But in general turning up the sub woofers gain once you hit zero on the avr is a safer bet.

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post #13046 of 13882 Old 07-29-2014, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by lizrussspike View Post
Thanks for the response, that is what I was thinking. I run my XV15SE about -2, as Audyssey set the PSA to-7. I was thinking that going to the + would be pushing the subs. I will try to convey to him about possible clipping in the near future as he is pushing all the movies with LFE he can get his hands on.
Its not a matter of overdrivng the sub. Going positive with the sub trim level in the AVR can clip the input signal to the subwoofer before it is actually maxed out. This is normally only a issue if you start turning the levels up around or above reference MV -0.
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post #13047 of 13882 Old 07-29-2014, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by lizrussspike View Post
Thanks for the response, that is what I was thinking. I run my XV15SE about -2, as Audyssey set the PSA to-7. I was thinking that going to the + would be pushing the subs. I will try to convey to him about possible clipping in the near future as he is pushing all the movies with LFE he can get his hands on.
Another consideration is the dynamic EQ feature on many receivers. Audyssey's "Dynamic EQ" can boost bass levels >10dB depending on the master volume setting.

If you don't turn off this type of feature at least be aware of what it is doing. It really adds a huge variable.

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post #13048 of 13882 Old 07-29-2014, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Another consideration is the dynamic EQ feature on many receivers. Audyssey's "Dynamic EQ" can boost bass levels >10dB depending on the master volume setting.

If you don't turn off this type of feature at least be aware of what it is doing. It really adds a huge variable.

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Thanks Tom, Not really familiar with that feature, will have to make myslef smarter on that subject.

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post #13049 of 13882 Old 07-29-2014, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post
My guess is... The subs aren't great so they need to pushed hard to keep up.
The Polk subwoofers, right?

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post #13050 of 13882 Old 07-29-2014, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by lizrussspike View Post
Thanks Tom, Not really familiar with that feature, will have to make myslef smarter on that subject.
Don't feel bad. There are details with Audyssey and AVR settings I don't even understand completely. Things are magnitudes more complicated than they were just 5 years ago.


Audyssey Dynamic EQ Measurments

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries...eference-Level

Tom V.
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