Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 436 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #13051 of 29859 Old 07-31-2014, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Homebrew101 View Post
so maybe I shouldn't go for dual XV15s cuz then I'd still want more?
It depends on what is important to you I guess. I am mostly just commenting on the fact that it's a slippery slope, and can really get out of control quickly. It is easy to get stuck in the upgrade loop, and if you don't want to go broke you have to pick a stopping point...

I will say that I have two xv15se's in my 6000cu ft room, and it's noticeably better than a single unit (more effortless, fills the room better, and more even response). For a space this large it made a huge difference, as most would expect. I still would love to buy additional units or get a Triax just for fun, but I've definitely reached the point of diminishing returns.

So I guess in summary, I would only upgrade if you are unsatisfied in some way. If you start upgrading just to see what it's like, well, that gets out hand quickly (just ask some of the other guys around here )
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post #13052 of 29859 Old 07-31-2014, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post
Oh Tom, using our previous conversations about an xs30se in my <1000 cu ft room to toy with my emotional weakness here. Now there is no risk in trying.... Must..... Resist....
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post #13053 of 29859 Old 07-31-2014, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Billy p View Post
I guess it's a good thing I live all the way up here....otherwise I'd be bouncing off the walls toying with the idea of adding more subs with this promo.
Indeed! As FMP indicated, it can be a slippery slope. Bill, I think your friend will let you know right away what he thinks. Just look at how big his grin becomes! I cannot fathom he wouldn't be impressed. Let us know his thoughts.
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post #13054 of 29859 Old 07-31-2014, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I assume that you plan on trying to keep using the KK along with the PSA, correct? Good thing you're willing to learn REW...you're gonna need it.

Here is my standard procedure for 2 identical subs. The only difference with your mis-matched subs would be that you have to get them both to output the same SPL (will probably have differing gain settings).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Set the gain on both subs to the same level - around 12:00-2:00 on the gain knob is a good starting point. Set phase to "0" on both subs for now.

1. Connect sub #1 only and place it at the MLP
2. Do the sub crawl to determine the best position for sub #1
3. Place sub #1 in that position
4. Connect both subs and place sub #2 at the MLP (with sub #1 playing as well)
5. Do the sub crawl to determine the best position for sub #2
6. Place sub #2 in that position
7. Playing pink noise, adjust phase on one of the subs until you get the maximum SPL at the MLP (could be variable or a simple 0/180 switch)
8. Run Audyssey, first mic position only, and "calculate"
9. Look to see where Audyssey has set your sub trim, you want it to be around -5db to -8db ideally
10. Adjust the gain on both subs by the same amount up or down as needed
11. Repeat 8-10 until you get the sub trim around -5db to -8db
12. Run the full Audyssey calibration
13. Bump up the sub trim from 3db to 6db to your preference
14. Enjoy!

Hope this helps!

Alan, can you describe this same procedure with my four identical stacked in each front L&R corners. I don't have to do the sub crawl just what you said above except figuring in two additional subs. Actually being stacked I'm treating them as a single sub, so any help short of using REW would be very helpful. TIA
Cheers Jeff
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post #13055 of 29859 Old 07-31-2014, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Alan, can you describe this same procedure with my four identical stacked in each front L&R corners. I don't have to do the sub crawl just what you said above except figuring in two additional subs. Actually being stacked I'm treating them as a single sub, so any help short of using REW would be very helpful. TIA
Cheers Jeff
Well, since your subs are stacked (you basically have dual subs, not quads - same as me ) and you've determined that is the best placement (don't need to sub crawl), all subs are up front so you *probably don't need to mess with phase...as long as you've got your sub trims in the correct range, there really is nothing more to do except move on to REW.

One thing maybe - how did you set the gain on your 4 subs? Did you gain match them before stacking? If not, this might help you out a bit. If you level matched them at the MLP, their output is probably slightly different. Not a big deal, but if you want to eeek out as much performance as possible.....


*My situation is probably very rare, but I have to reverse the phase on the 2 top subs in my stacks to get max SPL at the MLP. Those 2 subs must be wired out of phase internally, I haven't opened them up yet to fix it. Might be worth a try to reverse the phase on 1 in each stack and see if your SPL increases....you've got an SPL meter, right?
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post #13056 of 29859 Old 07-31-2014, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
Oh Tom, using our previous conversations about an xs30se in my <1000 cu ft room to toy with my emotional weakness here. Now there is no risk in trying.... Must..... Resist....

I think you have one XV15se now? The XV30Fse would work better..

Tom V.
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post #13057 of 29859 Old 07-31-2014, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
I think you have one XV15se now? The XV30Fse would work better..

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Tom, what are your thoughts of two XV30FSEs up front instead of four stacked XV15SEs (two in each L&R front corners)? Seriously? Seems that's what I'm trying to achieve since the 30FSE is the only sub that has not been in my home. I'm serious with this request, the only thing is that I have four drivers with the V15SEs and more amp power per driver than the dual XV30FSEs, look forward to your reply.

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post #13058 of 29859 Old 07-31-2014, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Well, since your subs are stacked (you basically have dual subs, not quads - same as me ) and you've determined that is the best placement (don't need to sub crawl), all subs are up front so you *probably don't need to mess with phase...as long as you've got your sub trims in the correct range, there really is nothing more to do except move on to REW.

One thing maybe - how did you set the gain on your 4 subs? Did you gain match them before stacking? If not, this might help you out a bit. If you level matched them at the MLP, their output is probably slightly different. Not a big deal, but if you want to eeek out as much performance as possible.....


*My situation is probably very rare, but I have to reverse the phase on the 2 top subs in my stacks to get max SPL at the MLP. Those 2 subs must be wired out of phase internally, I haven't opened them up yet to fix it. Might be worth a try to reverse the phase on 1 in each stack and see if your SPL increases....you've got an SPL meter, right?
I did not gain match them before stacking, I gain matched at the MLP but did not run the one spot Audy mic as you suggested to determine AVR rim level, matter of fact I did not run Audyssey at all, I have XT only, I guess I should try your method for two subs with one spot mic position and then try to achieve that -5 to -8 trim level and then run full Audy calibration, correct. I've also tried reversing phase of one in each stack and no difference on the SPL meter, all subs are at 0 phase. TIA.
Cheers Jeff
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post #13059 of 29859 Old 07-31-2014, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Tom, what are your thoughts of two XV30FSEs up front instead of four stacked XV15SEs (two in each L&R front corners)? Seriously? Seems that's what I'm trying to achieve since the 30FSE is the only sub that has not been in my home. I'm serious with this request, the only thing is that I have four drivers with the V15SEs and more amp power per driver than the dual XV30FSEs, look forward to your reply.
Have you even fired up REW to figure the best placement for the quad XV15's? Quad XV15se have more output then dual XV30's by about 3db.
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post #13060 of 29859 Old 07-31-2014, 08:59 PM
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Have you even fired up REW to figure the best placement for the quad XV15's? Quad XV15se have more output then dual XV30's by about 3db.
No I have not, I haven't even downloaded it yet, I have been in a slump and don't feel like doing anything. My four subs probably have less then 20 hours of use on them, seriously, maybe less. Right now I feel like selling everything and starting all over again.
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post #13061 of 29859 Old 08-01-2014, 01:34 AM
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One thing I have noticed is the folks with the UMIK-1 seem to have trouble doing max spl sweeps with REW, where as I have not heard any issues with this from UMM-6 owners. I know I can calibrate for up to a 140db sweep with my UMM-6

I ended up buying a second UMIK-1 mic from Cross Spectrum and it works perfect, the problem now is that I'm afraid to do a max SPL sweep with my current subs....lol


I can't even get close to -10 without my house feeling like its going to fall apart now....lol
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post #13062 of 29859 Old 08-01-2014, 06:54 AM
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Indeed! As FMP indicated, it can be a slippery slope. Bill, I think your friend will let you know right away what he thinks. Just look at how big his grin becomes! I cannot fathom he wouldn't be impressed. Let us know his thoughts.



The visit was a lot of fun...we talked about several of the characters/ or members from over the years. His visit was more specifically focused towards auditioning the Ascend Towers...since he owns the Salk ST....but he came away really impressed with the XS30....he now knows what you get with a 1500.00 sub.... He does own a couple of DIY subs but lives in a condo so he never really cranks it up.


Needless to say...he told me I had nice spot for a second XS30 right beside the sofa and love seat.....


Now...the gears in my head are really spinning....I knew his visit would cost me down the road...lol.


Ps: Btw...it was Alex from Audioholics...the is known as the resident monkey around there and for good reason...he has a lot of fun but he is one serious audio dude.

I am so glad to have finally met him. And Jeffery one day I hope to finally meet you Ray, TV or anybody else?

I would recommend...if given the opportunity that you guys should get out meet some of the guys you talk to or hang out with everyday. You'll find that most of them share the same common interests and it all starts with these crazy forums.

Re,
Bill
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post #13063 of 29859 Old 08-01-2014, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
I ended up buying a second UMIK-1 mic from Cross Spectrum and it works perfect, the problem now is that I'm afraid to do a max SPL sweep with my current subs....lol


I can't even get close to -10 without my house feeling like its going to fall apart now....lol
My room feels the same way....me not afraid.
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post #13064 of 29859 Old 08-01-2014, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Tom, what are your thoughts of two XV30FSEs up front instead of four stacked XV15SEs (two in each L&R front corners)? Seriously? Seems that's what I'm trying to achieve since the 30FSE is the only sub that has not been in my home. I'm serious with this request, the only thing is that I have four drivers with the V15SEs and more amp power per driver than the dual XV30FSEs, look forward to your reply.
Hi Blaza,

Dual XV15se(stacked) will outgun a single XV30Fse by 2.5dB. Another way of looking at that is....3 XV30Fse will be just about equal to 4 XV15se in clean output capability.

Extension and overall sound quality would be practically identical.

I would be sure you have the quad XV15se 100% dialed in before anything else.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #13065 of 29859 Old 08-01-2014, 09:55 AM
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I did not gain match them before stacking, I gain matched at the MLP but did not run the one spot Audy mic as you suggested to determine AVR rim level, matter of fact I did not run Audyssey at all, I have XT only, I guess I should try your method for two subs with one spot mic position and then try to achieve that -5 to -8 trim level and then run full Audy calibration, correct. I've also tried reversing phase of one in each stack and no difference on the SPL meter, all subs are at 0 phase. TIA.
Cheers Jeff
OK, I can forgive you for not messing with REW yet (it can be intimidating at first), but you have no excuse for not at least running Audyssey!

How can you make judgment on what your system is capable of if it's not calibrated??

Reversing the phase on just 2 subs should have had an effect on SPL.

BTW, you did not gain match at the MLP...that is known as level matching.
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post #13066 of 29859 Old 08-01-2014, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
I think you have one XV15se now? The XV30Fse would work better..

Tom V.
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post #13067 of 29859 Old 08-01-2014, 10:47 AM
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My room feels the same way....me not afraid.
Did you see my latest ULF score? 88@16hz
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post #13068 of 29859 Old 08-01-2014, 11:20 AM
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No I have three placed as end tables around the couches.
My main seating position is a sofa up against the back wall.
I'm thinking about putting one XS15se on each side of the sofa, instead of in the front of the room.

Anybody try this?

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post #13069 of 29859 Old 08-01-2014, 03:05 PM
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iv got two xs30's flanking my couch.... the subs are earth shattering to say the least. the other night my wife and i watched some exorcist movie on cable. we jumped out of our seats about 5 times thanks to the subs.

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Sweet my XS15se has shipped and now the work begins! I plan on REW as soon as the mics are available for order on Monday, that means for now a level match with the dxd12012 and XT32 SubEq will have to do. Soon as I get things up and running I'll post some pics and my initial thoughts!
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post #13071 of 29859 Old 08-01-2014, 05:55 PM
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Sweet my XS15se has shipped and now the work begins! I plan on REW as soon as the mics are available for order on Monday, that means for now a level match with the dxd12012 and XT32 SubEq will have to do. Soon as I get things up and running I'll post some pics and my initial thoughts!

Congratulations! Hope you enjoy it!

To everyone else I may have missed, old an new Congratulations to all you as well!
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post #13072 of 29859 Old 08-01-2014, 05:57 PM
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first impressions with the XV15se's. meh. I haven't yet ran audyssey or gotten into any calibration/setup with them to reach their full potential. I just wanted to hook them up and see what the difference would be from the dual Dayton 1200's.

I don't really get that visceral feel I was hoping for. The gain on subs is about 2 o'clock; AVR -8.5db; crossovers on front stage 80hz; LPF to LFE 120 (it goes up to 210hz!). I will say that the XV's definitely provide more content, lower, and don't sound bloated or droning. They have a richness to them that the daytons could never match. They are clearly a better speaker than the lil 1200's

Right now i have them in the front of the room, flanking the tv/avr. One in each corner. Given their size, I may end up going wireless with them and moving them back by the couches, as they could be used as endtables lol. That would undoubtedly give viewers a more involved experience.

But yeah, I need to do some setup and view some LFE heavy movies to see what's really going on. I guess I had my hopes up too high, given the price difference between these and the Daytons. Again, these sound much better than the Daytons but they don't seem to hit as hard (yet). At roughly thirteen times the cost of the Daytons...I was hoping for more right out of the box.

Like I said though, I need a proper setup and some more testing. I know there is more out there, but I'm skeptical at just how much.

My back is very messed up right now, so moving these things isn't going to happen until that's better. Hopefully soon.


There are some things that concern me about the subs, however. The pots on the crossover knob (on both subs) are a bit scratchy towards max/min. I didn't adjust while the sub was on, but feeling scratchy pots on a new piece of hardware seems odd to me. Also, one of the subs didn't turn on right away. I had to toggle from off-on-auto-on at which point it made a slight "fizz" noise and turned on (green light is go!).

All of this may be nothing, I'm just reporting my experience so far.
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post #13073 of 29859 Old 08-01-2014, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
OK, I can forgive you for not messing with REW yet (it can be intimidating at first), but you have no excuse for not at least running Audyssey!

How can you make judgment on what your system is capable of if it's not calibrated??

Reversing the phase on just 2 subs should have had an effect on SPL.

BTW, you did not gain match at the MLP...that is known as level matching.
I'm sorry for the error, I do know the difference between gain and level matching, like I said I'm out of my mind right now and just can't get into anything. I will try at least running Audyssey. It's just right now I've sold all of my main speakers and I'm using some Pioneer monitors until I can get the PSA speakers. I've never liked the results of Audyssey in the past but then again I really haven't given it a chance. Alan, should I use the procedure you outlined for dialing in two subs in your post earlier since my four are stacked? TIA
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post #13074 of 29859 Old 08-01-2014, 07:29 PM
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here's the beastly xv next to the lil dayton 1200. Sorry for the potato quality picture
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post #13075 of 29859 Old 08-01-2014, 07:55 PM
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first impressions with the XV15se's. meh. I haven't yet ran audyssey or gotten into any calibration/setup with them to reach their full potential. I just wanted to hook them up and see what the difference would be from the dual Dayton 1200's.

I don't really get that visceral feel I was hoping for. The gain on subs is about 2 o'clock; AVR -8.5db; crossovers on front stage 80hz; LPF to LFE 120 (it goes up to 210hz!). I will say that the XV's definitely provide more content, lower, and don't sound bloated or droning. They have a richness to them that the daytons could never match. They are clearly a better speaker than the lil 1200's

Right now i have them in the front of the room, flanking the tv/avr. One in each corner. Given their size, I may end up going wireless with them and moving them back by the couches, as they could be used as endtables lol. That would undoubtedly give viewers a more involved experience.

But yeah, I need to do some setup and view some LFE heavy movies to see what's really going on. I guess I had my hopes up too high, given the price difference between these and the Daytons. Again, these sound much better than the Daytons but they don't seem to hit as hard (yet). At roughly thirteen times the cost of the Daytons...I was hoping for more right out of the box.

Like I said though, I need a proper setup and some more testing. I know there is more out there, but I'm skeptical at just how much.

My back is very messed up right now, so moving these things isn't going to happen until that's better. Hopefully soon.


There are some things that concern me about the subs, however. The pots on the crossover knob (on both subs) are a bit scratchy towards max/min. I didn't adjust while the sub was on, but feeling scratchy pots on a new piece of hardware seems odd to me. Also, one of the subs didn't turn on right away. I had to toggle from off-on-auto-on at which point it made a slight "fizz" noise and turned on (green light is go!).

All of this may be nothing, I'm just reporting my experience so far.

Why are you running your AVR at -8.5?
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post #13076 of 29859 Old 08-01-2014, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Well, since your subs are stacked (you basically have dual subs, not quads - same as me ) and you've determined that is the best placement (don't need to sub crawl), all subs are up front so you *probably don't need to mess with phase...as long as you've got your sub trims in the correct range, there really is nothing more to do except move on to REW.

One thing maybe - how did you set the gain on your 4 subs? Did you gain match them before stacking? If not, this might help you out a bit. If you level matched them at the MLP, their output is probably slightly different. Not a big deal, but if you want to eeek out as much performance as possible.....


*My situation is probably very rare, but I have to reverse the phase on the 2 top subs in my stacks to get max SPL at the MLP. Those 2 subs must be wired out of phase internally, I haven't opened them up yet to fix it. Might be worth a try to reverse the phase on 1 in each stack and see if your SPL increases....you've got an SPL meter, right?

Alan, if I were to gain match each sub prior to stacking should I turn each XV15SE on it's side and measure the driver output for each sub that way with mic same distance from each of the four drivers in the center of my room placing each sub in the same location as the first as described in the gain matching post which is in your post, the guy who has the three submersives? TIA
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post #13077 of 29859 Old 08-01-2014, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drwinlied View Post
first impressions with the XV15se's. meh. I haven't yet ran audyssey or gotten into any calibration/setup with them to reach their full potential. I just wanted to hook them up and see what the difference would be from the dual Dayton 1200's.

I don't really get that visceral feel I was hoping for. The gain on subs is about 2 o'clock; AVR -8.5db; crossovers on front stage 80hz; LPF to LFE 120 (it goes up to 210hz!). I will say that the XV's definitely provide more content, lower, and don't sound bloated or droning. They have a richness to them that the daytons could never match. They are clearly a better speaker than the lil 1200's

Right now i have them in the front of the room, flanking the tv/avr. One in each corner. Given their size, I may end up going wireless with them and moving them back by the couches, as they could be used as endtables lol. That would undoubtedly give viewers a more involved experience.

But yeah, I need to do some setup and view some LFE heavy movies to see what's really going on. I guess I had my hopes up too high, given the price difference between these and the Daytons. Again, these sound much better than the Daytons but they don't seem to hit as hard (yet). At roughly thirteen times the cost of the Daytons...I was hoping for more right out of the box.

Like I said though, I need a proper setup and some more testing. I know there is more out there, but I'm skeptical at just how much.

My back is very messed up right now, so moving these things isn't going to happen until that's better. Hopefully soon.


There are some things that concern me about the subs, however. The pots on the crossover knob (on both subs) are a bit scratchy towards max/min. I didn't adjust while the sub was on, but feeling scratchy pots on a new piece of hardware seems odd to me. Also, one of the subs didn't turn on right away. I had to toggle from off-on-auto-on at which point it made a slight "fizz" noise and turned on (green light is go!).

All of this may be nothing, I'm just reporting my experience so far.
If you are running an AVR with Audyssey, bump up the trim in the AVR 5dbs or so. Most report that Audyssey sets the sub channel on the conservative side.

They may or may not work in the same spots you had your Daytons, but that should be a good starting point.

So bump up the sub trim put a bass heavy movie or 10 in or stream some youtube bass test tracks and crank it up. They should pretty much blast you out of the room, unless your room is really large.

As for the auto on, there can be some variation in how sensitive that is from amp to amp.

The first amp in my PC12 Plus was not very sensitive at all to auto on, so much so I just left it on all the time. Well that amp went bad and the replacement amp works much better even though they are the "same" amp.

Tom monitors this thread but it still wouldn't hurt to call or email with any concerns.

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post #13078 of 29859 Old 08-01-2014, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Why are you running your AVR at -8.5?
that's simply where audyssey put the level at with the daytons. Like I said, i didn't touch any settings. The daytons tended to get a bit overzealous running at -6 or higher for tv so I just left the settings as they where. I'd kick them to around -2 for movies/games.

Again, these are just my initial impressions and I did say I haven't messed with any settings/calibrations yet. I think these XV's will be a massive improvement when dialed in. Quick report is all, as they say, garbage in, garbage out =P
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post #13079 of 29859 Old 08-01-2014, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post
As for the auto on, there can be some variation in how sensitive that is from amp to amp.

The first amp in my PC12 Plus was not very sensitive at all to auto on, so much so I just left it on all the time. Well that amp went bad and the replacement amp works much better even though they are the "same" amp.

Tom monitors this thread but it still wouldn't hurt to call or email with any concerns.
Yeah, no concerns yet. Like i said, just initial impressions with a quick n dirty, RTR setup.

Regarding the "auto on"...I turned the sub from OFF to ON and it didn't turn on. I then went from ON to AUTO and back to ON (waiting about 5 seconds per stage). It finally turned on after those steps, but it fizzed. Static fizz, not soda fizz...I always leave my subs ON and never in AUTO. Those daytons had some issues knowing when to turn on.

Again, I'll do a proper audyssey and bump the levels up +5ish from where audyssey puts it.
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post #13080 of 29859 Old 08-01-2014, 08:25 PM
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If you have trouble with auto on, use a splitter to use both the channels L and R on the sub. I have 3 xs30se plugged in this way and all of them turn on automatically when the subs sense a bass signal.

As other users have pointed, calibration makes a huge difference. Try jacking up the sw level on average by about 6-8 dB. Sit back and be ready to jump and reduce the sw level when needed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by drwinlied View Post
Yeah, no concerns yet. Like i said, just initial impressions with a quick n dirty, RTR setup.

Regarding the "auto on"...I turned the sub from OFF to ON and it didn't turn on. I then went from ON to AUTO and back to ON (waiting about 5 seconds per stage). It finally turned on after those steps, but it fizzed. Static fizz, not soda fizz...I always leave my subs ON and never in AUTO. Those daytons had some issues knowing when to turn on.

Again, I'll do a proper audyssey and bump the levels up +5ish from where audyssey puts it.

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