Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 441 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #13201 of 29839 Old 08-11-2014, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
I'm no expert by any means but setting your sub trim level on the + side of 0 is not so good, you at least have to get an SPL meter, even I know that, that XV15SE should be blowing you away, I'm not putting the Outlaw down but I don't think it's near the sub the XV15Se is, just my thoughts. If you can get the Outlaw to play nice I don't know why the 15 is not working for you, there has to be something not right.

Is it normal for you guys to have to change up settings on your receiver all the time for games/movies/music? I've always been able to get a sub in that area where the setting can be left alone for everything.
Cheers Jeff
I'm certainly not saying the Outlaw can outperform the PSA, but it just doesn't seem to be cooperating in the calibration process. Like I said, I can jack the sub gain up to 3 or 4 and it will perform. I don't have the SPL meter and I doubt I will be buying one.
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post #13202 of 29839 Old 08-11-2014, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
I'm no expert by any means but setting your sub trim level on the + side of 0 is not so good, you at least have to get an SPL meter, even I know that, that XV15SE should be blowing you away, I'm not putting the Outlaw down but I don't think it's near the sub the XV15Se is, just my thoughts. If you can get the Outlaw to play nice I don't know why the 15 is not working for you, there has to be something not right.
Cheers Jeff

Is it normal for you guys to have to change settings for the sub for different inputs (movies/music/games)? I've always been able to get a sub set up to where I can leave it for everything.
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post #13203 of 29839 Old 08-11-2014, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
Audyssey had sub level at -5db. I even bumped it up to +5db and it was still weak.

I've been using 70 or 80 for XO. I'm running Infinity Primus P363 fronts and the other 3 are P163.

I've calibrated subs in the past in this room and I'm using the best location possible for the sub.

I don't have an SPL meter.

I did sub crawl a few different times and the current sub location is in the best possible spot.

Movies are played through Blu-Ray player. Music off the receiver, with USB stick.

I've bumped the gain on the sub to 3-4 o'clock, which seems way too hot to me. At this setting movies actually feel like the sub is performing closer to what it should be, but with this same setting the bass in music is EXTREMELY overdone. All this is odd, like I said, because the Outlaw is pretty easy to calibrate and set to where it works great for music and movies. I really don't see why I should either have to run the XV15se either with dynamic EQ, or with the sub cranked up almost all the way without it, at least for movies.
Did you re-run Audyssey after changing the subwoofer gain knob?

Give Tom V a call and I'm sure that, in his considerable experience, he can help you figure out what is going on with your setup. I piddled around for a month with weak bass and finally called Tom. In 15 minutes, he had me right where I wanted to be.

Your goal should be anywhere from -8 dB to -10 dB after Audyssey calibrates your sub. At that point, I recommend bumping up the AVR subwoofer gain from 3 - 5 dB. My room is slightly larger (and am running two XV15se subs) at 16' x 28' x 8'. I also run dynamic EQ and 80 Hz for the speakers. I think there may be something in the mix that is awry. Give Tom a call.
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post #13204 of 29839 Old 08-11-2014, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
Audyssey had sub level at -5db. I even bumped it up to +5db and it was still weak.

I've been using 70 or 80 for XO. I'm running Infinity Primus P363 fronts and the other 3 are P163.

I've calibrated subs in the past in this room and I'm using the best location possible for the sub.

I don't have an SPL meter.

I did sub crawl a few different times and the current sub location is in the best possible spot.

Movies are played through Blu-Ray player. Music off the receiver, with USB stick.

I've bumped the gain on the sub to 3-4 o'clock, which seems way too hot to me. At this setting movies actually feel like the sub is performing closer to what it should be, but with this same setting the bass in music is EXTREMELY overdone. All this is odd, like I said, because the Outlaw is pretty easy to calibrate and set to where it works great for music and movies. I really don't see why I should either have to run the XV15se either with dynamic EQ, or with the sub cranked up almost all the way without it, at least for movies.
OK, probably a stupid question, but do you have all speakers set to "small"?
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post #13205 of 29839 Old 08-11-2014, 09:00 PM
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Anyone know if the PSA subs (original XS15 in particular) have a built in HPF?? If so, where is it set and what slope?
Nobody knows the answer to this?? Basshead?

I know Tom will when he sees it.
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post #13206 of 29839 Old 08-11-2014, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Nobody knows the answer to this?? Basshead?

I know Tom will when he sees it.
There is no hpf filter in the sealed power x subs from my understanding. The have the standard 12db per octave slope starting around 30hz.
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post #13207 of 29839 Old 08-11-2014, 09:42 PM
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Thanks bh!
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post #13208 of 29839 Old 08-11-2014, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
I'm certainly not saying the Outlaw can outperform the PSA, but it just doesn't seem to be cooperating in the calibration process. Like I said, I can jack the sub gain up to 3 or 4 and it will perform. I don't have the SPL meter and I doubt I will be buying one.
You know, I had a similar problem. Thought the xv15se was lacking power compared to my outlaw EX... Then realized I had the sub cable going to the 'right' input instead of 'left/LFE' on the back of the xv15se. Maybe check that? Since correcting that the xv15se really took off for me.
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post #13209 of 29839 Old 08-12-2014, 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
You know, I had a similar problem. Thought the xv15se was lacking power compared to my outlaw EX... Then realized I had the sub cable going to the 'right' input instead of 'left/LFE' on the back of the xv15se. Maybe check that? Since correcting that the xv15se really took off for me.
I'm running a y splitter at the sub end, so both are connected. And yes, all speakers are set to small. I'll re-run Audyssey again and post the results. Should have written the results down when I did this earlier. Might hit Tom V up on chat, as well.
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post #13210 of 29839 Old 08-12-2014, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
I'm running a y splitter at the sub end, so both are connected. And yes, all speakers are set to small. I'll re-run Audyssey again and post the results. Should have written the results down when I did this earlier. Might hit Tom V up on chat, as well.
FWIW I had a hell of a time calibrating my PSA subs as well. I have a XS15se and a XV15. Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume gave me troubles at first, so definitely make sure those are off (sounds like you have already).


My 2nd major problem was during level matching. I constantly wanted to level match at 80db because that had worked with my previous subs. Once I stuck with Audyssey's 75db level matching, I was good to go. Also, the XV15 was almost to powerful for corner placement in my room (just under 3k cuft). If had to bet money, I'd guess that placement is your main issue. The PSA is more powerful than the Outlaw. At low volume it's not doing what you want it to, once you stretch her legs it seems to be overbearing. Sounds like it's picking up decibels from where it's located.


Now, if DEQ is engaged, I tend to leave the sub levels where Audyssey set them. If the track is a little weak, I may give a 3db bump. If DEQ is not engaged, I run them 3db-6db hot, again depending on what I'm watching. It definitely has not been set and forget for me. I will say, the more I listen to them and get used to them blending in my system, I'm playing with the levels a lot less.

Along with making sure your speakers are set to small, make sure that the "double bass" setting is off. Also keep in mind speaker crossovers typically blend best with a good sub around 80hz.


Hope some of that helps.

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post #13211 of 29839 Old 08-12-2014, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by wadec22 View Post
Along with making sure your speakers are set to small, make sure that the "double bass" setting is off.
Just FYI - if your mains are set to small, the "double bass" setting will do nothing.
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post #13212 of 29839 Old 08-12-2014, 08:32 AM
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Just FYI - if your mains are set to small, the "double bass" setting will do nothing.
Doesn't it depend on where the crossover is set? You can have a speaker set to small but still a crossover of 80hz or lower.

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post #13213 of 29839 Old 08-12-2014, 08:49 AM
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Doesn't it depend on where the crossover is set? You can have a speaker set to small but still a crossover of 80hz or lower.
My understanding is double bass means all channels are full range + the sub is on.
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post #13214 of 29839 Old 08-12-2014, 09:22 AM
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I'm running a y splitter at the sub end, so both are connected. And yes, all speakers are set to small. I'll re-run Audyssey again and post the results. Should have written the results down when I did this earlier. Might hit Tom V up on chat, as well.
I was running a y-splitter in the beginning too. I removed the splitter, set the gain to 2:00 and ran Audyssey. The AVR trim was -12dB. I lowered the sub gain knob to 1:00 and reran Audyssey, and then the AVR set them at -10. I bumped them up to -5dB.

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post #13215 of 29839 Old 08-12-2014, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Just FYI - if your mains are set to small, the "double bass" setting will do nothing.
Re-reading the Audyssey FAQ.... double bass sends all low frequency to sub and speakers. If that setting is on, I understand it's going to override a small speaker setting. I could be misinterpreting. ..

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post #13216 of 29839 Old 08-12-2014, 09:56 AM
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Re-reading the Audyssey FAQ.... double bass sends all low frequency to sub and speakers. If that setting is on, I understand it's going to override a small speaker setting. I could be misinterpreting. ..
That is exactly what Alan is trying to say. If your speakers are set small then double bass is off. Again full range speakers(Large) + the sub = Double bass or Extra bass depending on the type of AVR.
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post #13217 of 29839 Old 08-12-2014, 10:15 AM
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After a weekend of frustration, I'm afraid the PSA XV15se just isn't working for my situation. My room is 11'-6" wide and 26' long. Within that rectangle, I'm basically using half the room for home theater. TV/receiver is on the long wall, but off center to one side. Main listening area is on the opposite wall, straight across from it. Best spot for sub is in the corner on the listening area side, about 6-7 feet away from the couch. There is a leather chair in that corner, directly in front of the sub.

With the XV15se, calibrating with Audyssey (Onkyo TX-NR509), the sub is very weak when run at half gain, which I've read is where you should always start calibration. I bumped up the level within the receiver 6db and the center 3db. With dynamic EQ off, the sub is still really weak for movies. With it on it's still weak for movies. What it boils down to is if I turn the sub gain up to around 3 o'colck and run dynamic EQ, the movies sound really good. If I run this same setting with music, it's WAY too much bass. With dynamic EQ off, I have to turn the sub gain way up and boost it within the receiver settings. as well for movies. This is overkill with music.

What's more odd is my Outlaw LFM-1 Plus I run at 12 o'clock and just run Audyssey, then boost up the receiver level some and it's done. Without dynamic EQ I get good bass response in both music and movies. I don't understand how a more powerful sub like the XV15se can't be balanced. Any ideas?
1)start with the XV15se gain around the 1-2 O-Clock position. Remember the gain control on an amplifier is *not* a volume control. It is more accurate to think of the gain control as a way to adjust the input sensitivity on the subwoofer amplifier. The setting on the gain control is not an indicator of how much "power" the amplifier may be producing at any given time. In most common scenarios the XV15se amplifier will be producing very little power during calibration...often less than one watt.

http://www.powersoundaudio.com/pages/gain-control

2)be sure all speakers are set to small in the receiver's setup menu, with the crossovers set to 80-100hz.

3)crossover control on sub should be set to maximum

4)what did Audyssey set the distance for the sub? What is the actual distance?

5)The XV15se will have about 2.5x more headroom than the outlaw-plus so I'm guessing this is just a questions of getting everything optimized. Hang in there, we'll get it figured out..


Tom V.
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post #13218 of 29839 Old 08-12-2014, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Anyone know if the PSA subs (original XS15 in particular) have a built in HPF?? If so, where is it set and what slope?
There's all kinds of stuff going on to shape our FR to our targets. There's really nothing I can "define" or offer a "slope" though. A little of this, a little of that....shaping the bottom end is like perfecting a great steak recipe..

In terms of a "un-defeat-able" HP in the amplifier topology there is something around 5hz IIRC.

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post #13219 of 29839 Old 08-12-2014, 12:41 PM
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Okay, here's my Audyssey results with XV15se set to 12 o'clock. I ran it from 3 positions on the main couch.
Speakers= small
XO= 70hz
levels= L-7, C-6, R-6, SR-12, SL-12, sub-6. Note that the surround speakers are on the wall directly behind the couch, so they are close.
distance (feet)= L 11, C 8, R 9, SR 2, SL 2, sub 13

I bumped up the center +3 and the sub +6.
Test material, movie= Rambo, final battle scene. Music= George Strait, The Fireman.
With dynamic EQ off. Movie= weak response. Music= a little weak
With dynamic EQ on. Movie= weak response Music= good, but not great

Audyssey results with XV15se set to 2 o'clock. Same seating positions
speakers= small
XO= 80Hz
levels= L-6, C-6, R-6, SR-12, SL-12, sub-15.
distance (feet)= L 11, C 8, R 9, SR 2, SL 2, sub 13

I bumped up the center +3 and the sub +6.
With dynamic EQ off. Movie= a little weak. Music= pretty good
With dynamic EQ on. Movie= better, but not enough. Music= a little too much bass

Now how this rates is in comparison to the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus, which should be no match for the XV15se. My point I was making earlier is I can keep increasing the sub level to get good response for movies, but this totally over does it for music.
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post #13220 of 29839 Old 08-12-2014, 01:59 PM
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Is the bass more balanced in other parts of your room? The new sub may be exciting a mode that the Outlaw didn't, causing a new null to crop up.

If you had REW we would know.
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post #13221 of 29839 Old 08-12-2014, 02:03 PM
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Is the bass more balanced in other parts of your room? The new sub may be exciting a mode that the Outlaw didn't, causing a new null to crop up.

If you had REW we would know.
I've tried the sub in two other locations and it was worse. I placed the XV15se on my couch and did the sub crawl and the corner the sub is in right now had the best response.
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post #13222 of 29839 Old 08-12-2014, 02:08 PM
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Are you planning on setting the sub amp gain to 2:00 and rerunning audyssey? The fact that movies seem anemic and music is overpowering tells me you have a big null around 30-40hz or a big peak around 80hz. Another possible issue is something in the signal chain. What sources are you using for movies and music?
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post #13223 of 29839 Old 08-12-2014, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
Okay, here's my Audyssey results with XV15se set to 12 o'clock. I ran it from 3 positions on the main couch.
Speakers= small
XO= 70hz
levels= L-7, C-6, R-6, SR-12, SL-12, sub-6. Note that the surround speakers are on the wall directly behind the couch, so they are close.
distance (feet)= L 11, C 8, R 9, SR 2, SL 2, sub 13

I bumped up the center +3 and the sub +6.
Test material, movie= Rambo, final battle scene. Music= George Strait, The Fireman.
With dynamic EQ off. Movie= weak response. Music= a little weak
With dynamic EQ on. Movie= weak response Music= good, but not great

Audyssey results with XV15se set to 2 o'clock. Same seating positions
speakers= small
XO= 80Hz
levels= L-6, C-6, R-6, SR-12, SL-12, sub-15.
distance (feet)= L 11, C 8, R 9, SR 2, SL 2, sub 13

I bumped up the center +3 and the sub +6.
With dynamic EQ off. Movie= a little weak. Music= pretty good
With dynamic EQ on. Movie= better, but not enough. Music= a little too much bass

Now how this rates is in comparison to the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus, which should be no match for the XV15se. My point I was making earlier is I can keep increasing the sub level to get good response for movies, but this totally over does it for music.
Is there a reason the front left and right speakers are offset by 2ft? can they be setup equidistant from the MLP? I would suggest getting your mains setup correctly if possible and going from there, as it can go along way for the rest off the sound of your setup including 5.1 or however many speakers your running. Set them up with Audyssey off with stereo music and get the best sound possible , manually put in distance settings and position them moving back forward side to side till your satisfied with the best image in the middle with a degree of spaciousness between them to your liking. Now turn on the sub with audyssey still off and play around with the 80hz or so crossover and tweaking the distance manually and also moving the sub back and forth towards and away from the wall or boundaries till you get the bass integration you like with stereo music still playing, yes this will take some time but well worth the effort so hang in there , here's a bit more! If and when you tilt your head up or down forward of backwards you get a result you like ( i.e better midbass, highs or tactile sensation from the bass) do push forward or backwards your mlp while the music is playing. After this is done and your satisfied with the sound now your ready for Audyssey, and here mic placement is very critical as you have already determined what sounds good if your main speaker are now equidistant using only one mic position ( only the 1st and then calculate and view the results) as it determines distance which is extremely important to the overall system balance, if you find you need to move the mic back or forth to achieve a somewhat similar setting to the one you manually put in . This for me has never failed over many years of system setup and when I got my first pre with Audyssey what do you know, the same rules apply and my Audyssey runs are as follows.

FR/FL distance 12.8 for both with level setting of -2.5

Center distance 11.8 with a level setting -4.0

SL distance 12.5 and a level setting of 2.5 ( its that far away)

SR distance 8.1 and a level setting of 1.0

Sub 1 distance 16.5 and a level setting of -9.5
Sub 2 distance 16.5 and a level setting of -9.5

As a side note these are different subs one being the XS15se and the other a DXD12012.

Hope this helps a bit and good luck
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The left front speaker is further away than the right, due to the room arrangement, so that is correct.

Tom V helped me out with this issue, but unfortunately it couldn't be solved correctly. He's a great guy and even offered to send me a gain box free of charge. No doubt the XV15se is a great sub and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend PSA subs to anyone in the market for a quality product and great customer service.
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post #13225 of 29839 Old 08-12-2014, 05:16 PM
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seems you said you ran audessey for only 3 positions. is this correct? if i were you, i would take the time to properly use the system and run it for all positions. i would also mess with the gain until you get just less that the max negative value that audessey will set the system at. i.e., if the max negative is -15, i would try to get it around -12 or so, then bump it by 5 or 6. if it maxes at -15 then you need to lower the gain and try again as it could be -100 for all you know but it's capping it. again, i think you are not doing yourself any favors if you are only running audessey in 3 spots considering i think the full amount is 8. once i did all 8 with my system it made a huge difference with the blending. the system is trying to compensate for different areas of your room and if you don't move the mic around then you aren't giving the tool the ability to do it's job. there is a reason it's designed to measure a certain number of areas....take the time and do it right and you might be surprised how much it affects the room.
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post #13226 of 29839 Old 08-12-2014, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by digler84 View Post
seems you said you ran audessey for only 3 positions. is this correct? if i were you, i would take the time to properly use the system and run it for all positions. i would also mess with the gain until you get just less that the max negative value that audessey will set the system at. i.e., if the max negative is -15, i would try to get it around -12 or so, then bump it by 5 or 6. if it maxes at -15 then you need to lower the gain and try again as it could be -100 for all you know but it's capping it. again, i think you are not doing yourself any favors if you are only running audessey in 3 spots considering i think the full amount is 8. once i did all 8 with my system it made a huge difference with the blending. the system is trying to compensate for different areas of your room and if you don't move the mic around then you aren't giving the tool the ability to do it's job. there is a reason it's designed to measure a certain number of areas....take the time and do it right and you might be surprised how much it affects the room.
The 2EQ on my Onkyo only goes up to 3 positions. Anyways, the case is closed on this one.
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post #13227 of 29839 Old 08-12-2014, 07:51 PM
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The 2EQ on my Onkyo only goes up to 3 positions. Anyways, the case is closed on this one.
My Onkyo has two settings for audio optimization. Music and movies. I had to set it for music for 2 channel input and movies for 5.1. The movie setting is too boomy on music but just right for movies.
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post #13228 of 29839 Old 08-12-2014, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
The left front speaker is further away than the right, due to the room arrangement, so that is correct.

Tom V helped me out with this issue, but unfortunately it couldn't be solved correctly. He's a great guy and even offered to send me a gain box free of charge. No doubt the XV15se is a great sub and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend PSA subs to anyone in the market for a quality product and great customer service.
Never heard of Tom not being able to solve the problem. Guess there's a first time for everything!
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post #13229 of 29839 Old 08-12-2014, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
There's all kinds of stuff going on to shape our FR to our targets. There's really nothing I can "define" or offer a "slope" though. A little of this, a little of that....shaping the bottom end is like perfecting a great steak recipe..
Could Audyssey affect any of that "steak recipe" in a negative way?

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post #13230 of 29839 Old 08-13-2014, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by MIX_MASTER_ICE View Post
The 2EQ on my Onkyo only goes up to 3 positions. Anyways, the case is closed on this one.
Something interesting I want to put into the conversation.

It sounds like I went through the exact same issues as you did with my Onkyo receiver (707 model) and Odyssey. I had very poor bass for the most part, then other content would be too much bass. My issues personally were fixed with a Y-cable (which i know you have already done).

Perhaps this could be a potential issue between the lower end Onkyo receivers and the XV15se subwoofer?

I still have the occasional issue where the subwoofer doesn't seem to wake up properly and my bass level is noticeably lower than normal.

Just a thought, or maybe I'm just crazy
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