Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 448 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #13411 of 29810 Old 08-25-2014, 09:38 AM
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Anybody can tell me how to download these test tones to a disc. I'm interested in Sound Test and Test Tones, thanks?
http://www.audiocheck.net/soundtests...ones_index.php
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post #13412 of 29810 Old 08-25-2014, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Hey R, could you be more specific when you say you changed the phase and it made a significant difference, just curious my friend. I'm going with the understanding that the object of tweaking the phase controls is to increase output at the MLP but I realize there's more to it than that, so please if you don't mind let me know what you did that made that much of a difference, I know you have ported and I have sealed but the same should apply to both, correct? TIA
Cheers Jeff
Since you have a MiniDSP, you should set the phase to "0" on both your subs and time-align them with the MiniDSP.

Phase only aligns the subs at one frequency, time-aligning works at all frequencies.

See this thread.
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post #13413 of 29810 Old 08-25-2014, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Hey guys, I'm still waiting on the question as to get a new receiver with XT32 or keep my XT capable receiver and stick with REW and the miniDSP and UMIK. I'm really leaning towards Onkyo as I've owned them for many years even when they were made in Japan. I still have a very functional Onkyo 702 that is flawless. The reason I'm hesitating as it will still be used as a preamp or pre-pro unless I sell off all my amps. I know a lot of folks are not to keen on Onkyo but I have never had a problem with any of mine. I'm looking at the 929 and 1010 both have XT32 and are in the $900 range. TIA
Cheers Jeff
Since you have the ability to set distance (delay) to your subs separately with the MiniDSP, the only thing you will gain from XT32 is the additional bass EQ filters. From all reports (I don't have 32), it's well worth it. Only you can decide if it's worth it to you.
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post #13414 of 29810 Old 08-25-2014, 09:53 AM
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Couple of questions, my new laptop which will be here soon has HDMI, after reading some info on the miniDSP site it says to use the HDMI output of your laptop, how do I know if this is an input or an output. Also the laptop is Vista 8.1, is this compatible with REW and miniDSP. One more, with a 2 way you can measure dual subs what happens if you decide on getting more than two subs, would I need a four way? Shows how much I know Sorry for the dumb questions, I want to try and get a grasp on this stuff before my tools arrive.
Cheers Jeff
The HDMI on your laptop is OUT.

Vista 8.1 is fine.

You're getting the MiniDSP 2x4 with the 2-Way Advanced plug-in, correct? You can do up to 4 subs with that setup (more if you split the signal out).
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post #13415 of 29810 Old 08-25-2014, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
I'm not against Denon as I would be using only as a preamp and taking advantage of the XT32, I've heard the 4000 is decent but the higher end receivers pack a lot of amp punch in case I decided to use the receiver for more than a preamp. Well did you change the phase on both subs or just one?
Cheers Jeff
Don't know what your current speakers are, but aren't you planning on getting the new PSA speakers? From what Tom said, they're going to be on the high-end as far as sensitivity goes....I say sell the amps, you won't need 'em.
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post #13416 of 29810 Old 08-25-2014, 09:56 AM
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Guys, is this what I need to download REW and get started, post #12 in this thread, all three files?
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...support-2.html

Thanks so much, Jeff
All you need is the Windows Installer file: REWWindowsv5.01beta22.exe.
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post #13417 of 29810 Old 08-25-2014, 10:01 AM
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Sorry man, somehow I missed that the first time around. I switched the phase on both subs since they only sit like 8-10 ft apart. Figured they should behave pretty darn similarly in this setup but I will mess with things one day and see what I get
Hmmm....if you swapped phase on both subs, you should be exactly where you started.

Adjusting the variable phase knob on the sub amp is for getting the subs in phase with each other. You should use the distance setting in your AVR to then get both subs in phase with the mains.

If both subs are roughly equidistant to the MLP, no phase adjustment should be necessary. It's only when the subs are not equidistant to the MLP that adjusting phase comes into play.
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post #13418 of 29810 Old 08-25-2014, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Anybody can tell me how to download these test tones to a disc. I'm interested in Sound Test and Test Tones, thanks?
http://www.audiocheck.net/soundtests...ones_index.php
You do not need that if you are going to use REW being it has all the tones you could ever need.

Jeff, you really need to learn REW...seriously . I am willing to bet if you would of put the time in with it a few months ago, you could of had those quad XV15's placed around the room and sounding great. You took the easy way out by stacking them and did not like the looks. Now you are full circle. Get a plan together and stick with it already.
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post #13419 of 29810 Old 08-25-2014, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Hmmm....if you swapped phase on both subs, you should be exactly where you started.

Adjusting the variable phase knob on the sub amp is for getting the subs in phase with each other. You should use the distance setting in your AVR to then get both subs in phase with the mains.

If both subs are roughly equidistant to the MLP, no phase adjustment should be necessary. It's only when the subs are not equidistant to the MLP that adjusting phase comes into play.
Oh really? So then what is the point of reversing sub phase with just a single sub set up? This is a legit question as I guess I misunderstood what is happening.

Also, somehow it sounds very different, noticeably louder and more in sync. I don't think this is listening bias either since, as I mentioned before, I've messed with phase on previous subs and saw no change ever. Guess I'll have to look into this.

Last edited by FattyMcButterPants; 08-25-2014 at 11:01 AM.
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post #13420 of 29810 Old 08-25-2014, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
Oh really? So then what is the point of reversing sub phase with just a single sub set up? This is a legit question as I guess I misunderstood what is happening.

Also, somehow it sounds very different, noticeably louder and more in sync. I don't think this is listening bias either since, as I mentioned before, I've messed with phase on previous subs and saw no change ever. Guess I'll have to look into this.
Where are your subs located in your room??

You may have gotten the subs more in phase with your mains by doing what you did, but the correct way is to adjust the sub distance setting in your AVR.

By adjusting the phase between the 2 subs you are basically time-aligning them with each other, albeit the "poor mans" way. The correct way is with some sort of outboard processing (i.e. Mini DSP).

The best way to do both of the above is by making changes and measuring the results with REW....but you probably already know that.
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post #13421 of 29810 Old 08-25-2014, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Anybody can tell me how to download these test tones to a disc. I'm interested in Sound Test and Test Tones, thanks?
http://www.audiocheck.net/soundtests...ones_index.php
REW does work better, there are more options for tones that are sent via HDMI and you can measure the responses rather than listen to them.

However, you can right click on any of the files and save to a disc as an mp3.
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post #13422 of 29810 Old 08-25-2014, 02:58 PM
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I want to thank Alan, BH and climber for all the great info, what I need to do is get my head out of my a** and start working on my setup. I am planning on the getting the PSA speakers but it's going to be a while yet. It's discouraging as my speakers are the weak link right now as I've sold all my speakers (11) and I'm using some inexpensive monitors. Right now I'm really concerned with getting my dual XS30SEs dialed in and decide if I want to try the third, I'm not realizing the full potential of these subs as I've done no measurements except with an SPL meter and I know they are much more capable than what I'm experiencing now. I don't give anything a chance, I probably had one of the best subwoofer setups with the four XV15SEs but was too lazy to dial them in and like you said BH I just took the easy way out and made duals out of Quads by stacking. My new laptop will here tomorrow and I will be contacting Jim to order the miniDSP and UMIK and the appropriate plug in (2.1 advanced) correct? I really want to do this guys and am counting on your help, I'm tired of shipping subs and selling them. Is it possible to concentrate on just my subs for now with REW and tools, that is my main concern, I really want to dial them in and see what I'm hearing and let you guys see it as well. I have ethernet cables, HDMI and USB as well, what else do I need to complete the REW DSP and UMIK combo. Am I seeing correctly on the PSA site that the power supply for the mini is included or do I even need a power supply? Thanks Guys for putting up with me all this time. So please help me get my subs dialed in at least for now, and then I (we) will work on the speakers, I may as well dial in the one's I have now and then do it all over again with the new PSA models. THANK SO MUCH, I need to gain some confidence, after all I'm not an idiot but this REW and measuring really has me intimidated. Thanks Alan for the download of REW link, that's all I need to do for now correct? OK, I'll be back. I would love to get that third XS30SE behind my MLP but I can't even get two placed in identical corners the same distance to the PLP right let alone three...............
Sincerely, Jeffrey
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post #13423 of 29810 Old 08-25-2014, 03:26 PM
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Hang in there dude you'll figure it and have your ears bleeding in no time


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post #13424 of 29810 Old 08-25-2014, 03:51 PM
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Thanks Alan for the download of REW link, that's all I need to do for now correct?
Yup...and read this from beginning to end.

REW User Guide.
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post #13425 of 29810 Old 08-25-2014, 03:58 PM
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Am I seeing correctly on the PSA site that the power supply for the mini is included or do I even need a power supply?
Yes, we include a 5V USB power supply. Here is a pic for those interested. You can even use to charge your cell phone.
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post #13426 of 29810 Old 08-25-2014, 04:59 PM
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Yes, we include a 5V USB power supply. Here is a pic for those interested. You can even use to charge your cell phone.
Yep thats what I mentioned to Tom to use when we were discussing the minindsp a few weeks ago. I ran into ground loop hum when wiring a 12v power source to the mini. Using the USB side worked much better(no hum)!! Nice Job incorporating that with the MiniDSP into a subwoofer package!! PSA is doing great things!!
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post #13427 of 29810 Old 08-25-2014, 05:52 PM
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Yep thats what I mentioned to Tom to use when we were discussing the minindsp a few weeks ago. I ran into ground loop hum when wiring a 12v power source to the mini. Using the USB side worked much better(no hum)!! Nice Job incorporating that with the MiniDSP into a subwoofer package!! PSA is doing great things!!
Thanks Basshead81. Tom and I wanted to offer a complete solution (mic, miniDSP, and power supply) to make things easier on everyone. Our price may seem a little high when compared to buying direct from miniDSP, but it is very close when you factor in the power supply and shipping.
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post #13428 of 29810 Old 08-25-2014, 06:37 PM
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So I know there are a few Denon X4000 owners here. My question is, would you consider a Refurbed X4000 for 700.00 with manufacturer warranty a good deal?
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post #13429 of 29810 Old 08-25-2014, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Where are your subs located in your room??

You may have gotten the subs more in phase with your mains by doing what you did, but the correct way is to adjust the sub distance setting in your AVR.

By adjusting the phase between the 2 subs you are basically time-aligning them with each other, albeit the "poor mans" way. The correct way is with some sort of outboard processing (i.e. Mini DSP).

The best way to do both of the above is by making changes and measuring the results with REW....but you probably already know that.
My subs are located at FR and FL with my mains, and are within inches of the same distance from MLP. Did some quick reading and most things appear to match my understanding - the phase on the sub is there to align with the speakers, which will require different settings in every room. Can you provide a link that shows what you are talking about? It appears to me it's more than just aligning subs

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post #13430 of 29810 Old 08-25-2014, 07:41 PM
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So I know there are a few Denon X4000 owners here. My question is, would you consider a Refurbed X4000 for 700.00 with manufacturer warranty a good deal?
In Canada I literally just bought one over the weekend for $929 plus tax (new). Not sure what that means price wise down south (I assume you're American, could be wrong though )
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In Canada I literally just bought one over the weekend for $929 plus tax (new). Not sure what that means price wise down south (I assume you're American, could be wrong though )
what store did you buy at?
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post #13432 of 29810 Old 08-25-2014, 08:17 PM
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In Canada I literally just bought one over the weekend for $929 plus tax (new). Not sure what that means price wise down south (I assume you're American, could be wrong though )
Yep U.S of A.

I can get a new one for 899.00 shipped.

Just curious if it is worth saving 200.00 for a Refurb. Not really in the market for a new AVR, but a deal can always change things.
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Yep U.S of A.

I can get a new one for 899.00 shipped.

Just curious if it is worth saving 200.00 for a Refurb. Not really in the market for a new AVR, but a deal can always change things.
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post #13434 of 29810 Old 08-25-2014, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Yep U.S of A.

I can get a new one for 899.00 shipped.

Just curious if it is worth saving 200.00 for a Refurb. Not really in the market for a new AVR, but a deal can always change things.

BH, someone long ago told me never buy a refurb Denon, don't know why but I think it has something to do with warranty, and if you don't mind me asking where can you get the 4000 for $899 shipped?
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post #13435 of 29810 Old 08-25-2014, 09:10 PM
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Onkyo 1010

It's really hard for me not to get that new Onkyo TX-NR1010 new for $989 shipped, MSRP is $1700 and I could get rid of all my amps to drive the new PSA Speakers.
Cheers Jeff
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post #13436 of 29810 Old 08-25-2014, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
My subs are located at FR and FL with my mains, and are within inches of the same distance from MLP. Did some quick reading and most things appear to match my understanding - the phase on the sub is there to align with the speakers, which will require different settings in every room. Can you provide a link that shows what you are talking about? It appears to me it's more than just aligning subs
I got no links, just experience with what has worked for me, with my system, in my room. Also, experience with reading AVS every dang day.

I can tell you for sure that if you use the phase knob on your subs to "time align" with your mains, you are only aligning at one frequency. If you use the distance setting in your AVR (with multiple, equidistant subs), you will align the subs with the mains at all frequencies. Search for the "sub distance tweak".

With dual subs, typically you would play pink noise through the subs only and adjust phase (on one sub only) for highest SPL at the MLP, then while playing pink noise through both the center channel and subs at the same time, you would do REW sweeps and adjust sub distance in your AVR until you get the smoothest transition through the crossover.
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post #13437 of 29810 Old 08-25-2014, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
BH, someone long ago told me never buy a refurb Denon, don't know why but I think it has something to do with warranty, and if you don't mind me asking where can you get the 4000 for $899 shipped?
I bought a refurb Denon 2 years ago and have had zero issues.
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post #13438 of 29810 Old 08-25-2014, 09:17 PM
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^^ call JDsmoothie here at AVS. He got good price. I got my x4000 brand new for $879 shipped about a year ago from an authorized dealer. Didn't think I would upgrade but the price was great and it turned out to be one of my best upgrade beside my sub. You don't need amp for high efficient speakers any way even though some might disagree.
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post #13439 of 29810 Old 08-25-2014, 09:17 PM
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post #13440 of 29810 Old 08-25-2014, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I got no links, just experience with what has worked for me, with my system, in my room. Also, experience with reading AVS every dang day.

I can tell you for sure that if you use the phase knob on your subs to "time align" with your mains, you are only aligning at one frequency. If you use the distance setting in your AVR (with multiple, equidistant subs), you will align the subs with the mains at all frequencies. Search for the "sub distance tweak".

With dual subs, typically you would play pink noise through the subs only and adjust phase (on one sub only) for highest SPL at the MLP, then while playing pink noise through both the center channel and subs at the same time, you would do REW sweeps and adjust sub distance in your AVR until you get the smoothest transition through the crossover.
Will do, thanks for the advice, much appreciated!
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