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post #13861 of 13878 Old Today, 08:40 AM
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Hmmm...maybe I need to make a quick trip from NB to Quebec!
Before you do, let me act as a spotter first -- or at least I'll point you to the phone numbers of the 3 local FS. They don't advertise the RC-70s at all on the website now. Last time I checked was this summer. They may be gone now, but if not, there is a chance you could find five RC-70s in Quebec City if you're willing to use a tower as your center speaker. Not a common setup but perfect timbre match. That being said, good speakers are not that hard to find and you may be better with a brand that actually is willing to distribute and sell their speakers in a consistent manner.

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I have kind of "settled" on sealed subs after talking a couple of times with Tom. My listening levels are not extreme (nowhere near reference); but as the system is mostly movie & TV, little music, I'm interested in good low extension, rather than max SPL.
I don't want to further confuse you -- on the contrary -- but what I've learned these past few years is that extension and max SPL are in fact linked, as it's exponentially harder to get a sub to play a given SPL level as the frequency goes down, but at the same time, the threshold of human hearing / perception goes way up as the frequency goes down. This means that if your setup can play a flat 90 dB SPL even to single-digit frequencies, well I'm convinced you won't perceive much below 20 Hz. Can you even perceive 10 Hz below 100 dB SPL? I'm not even sure.

The only way to get lots of SPL at very low frequencies (e.g. 10 Hz) is to use a sealed sub as the low-frequency roll-off is much gentler than with a ported or passive radiator or horn sub. This in turn can be picked up by natural vessel (room) gain. But again, to get lots of SPL at subsonic frequencies, you need monster subs and kilowatts of power. While I'm impressed by the XS15se's specs, I don't expect one or even two of them to be authoritative below 20 Hz.

Ported subs have a *huge* SPL advantage around their tuning point. So large ported subs that are tuned below 20 Hz (Large & Low-Tune or LLT) are a very efficient way to generate plenty of ULFs. While my SVS Pluses are not that large compared to some designs, they fit the bill for me: they're incapable of doing anything of interest below 15 Hz but I get tremendous output in the 15-20 Hz region in 16-Hz tuning, which is really fun. So in a sense I sacrificed sub-15 Hz output for lots of 15-20 Hz output and with a limited budget (and space!) that was a good strategy I think.

For example, no sealed SVS sub -- even the Ultra -- can even approach the 16 Hz output from a Plus in 16 Hz tuning (just compare on data-bass.com). Thus saying that you don't want a ported sub in order to get more low-end extension instead of high SPL is a bit misleading. However the sealed subs are typically cheaper, more compact, etc. And it's the only way to reach lower. Dual XS30se are packing quite a punch and may indeed dig pretty low given the right room gain profile.

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All of this is why I just can't make any decision! I just know I want something different than the Velodyne I currently have which has lots of SPL, but not much low extension.
Yeah sorry about that, I'm not making your life easier am I? Things were much simpler for us Canadians when there was only SVS in town

Also you must be aware that even if you do buy dual XS30's, it won't be the end of the road, and that each dollar invested in more and more powerful subs have diminishing returns in terms of final effect at the listening position. Replacing the Velodyne (which, depending on the model, might even struggle with 30 Hz) with a single $799 XS15 that can reach 100 dB SPL at 20 Hz will be a great upgrade, and so would going from a single XS15 to dual XS30, but the price step would be much steeper at more than $2000.

So you should set a budget and hard constraints (like available space) and just choose a good sub that fits within those. You can't really go wrong with any PSA or SVS sub anyway.
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post #13862 of 13878 Old Today, 09:21 AM
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I don't want to further confuse you -- on the contrary -- but what I've learned these past few years is that extension and max SPL are in fact linked, as it's exponentially harder to get a sub to play a given SPL level as the frequency goes down, but at the same time, the threshold of human hearing / perception goes way up as the frequency goes down. This means that if your setup can play a flat 90 dB SPL even to single-digit frequencies, well I'm convinced you won't perceive much below 20 Hz. Can you even perceive 10 Hz below 100 dB SPL? I'm not even sure.

The only way to get lots of SPL at very low frequencies (e.g. 10 Hz) is to use a sealed sub as the low-frequency roll-off is much gentler than with a ported or passive radiator or horn sub. This in turn can be picked up by natural vessel (room) gain. But again, to get lots of SPL at subsonic frequencies, you need monster subs and kilowatts of power. While I'm impressed by the XS15se's specs, I don't expect one or even two of them to be authoritative below 20 Hz.

The single X15se managed 100dB or so down to 10hz when Josh Ricci measured it in his room during the review process. IIRC his room is between 3500-4000 cu-ft so a little larger than average. If the room was say 2000-2500 cu-ft I bet we would see another 3-6dB in the deepest bass. So dual XS15se in 2000-2500 cu-ft might be good for say....110-112dB down to 10hz. Not saying this is the end all be all of course....but I bet the XS15se(and XS30se by association) really surprise some folks. Don't let the low price fool you..




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post #13863 of 13878 Old Today, 09:30 AM
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Before you do, let me act as a spotter first -- or at least I'll point you to the phone numbers of the 3 local FS. They don't advertise the RC-70s at all on the website now. Last time I checked was this summer. They may be gone now, but if not, there is a chance you could find five RC-70s in Quebec City if you're willing to use a tower as your center speaker. Not a common setup but perfect timbre match. That being said, good speakers are not that hard to find and you may be better with a brand that actually is willing to distribute and sell their speakers in a consistent manner.



I don't want to further confuse you -- on the contrary -- but what I've learned these past few years is that extension and max SPL are in fact linked, as it's exponentially harder to get a sub to play a given SPL level as the frequency goes down, but at the same time, the threshold of human hearing / perception goes way up as the frequency goes down. This means that if your setup can play a flat 90 dB SPL even to single-digit frequencies, well I'm convinced you won't perceive much below 20 Hz. Can you even perceive 10 Hz below 100 dB SPL? I'm not even sure.

The only way to get lots of SPL at very low frequencies (e.g. 10 Hz) is to use a sealed sub as the low-frequency roll-off is much gentler than with a ported or passive radiator or horn sub. This in turn can be picked up by natural vessel (room) gain. But again, to get lots of SPL at subsonic frequencies, you need monster subs and kilowatts of power. While I'm impressed by the XS15se's specs, I don't expect one or even two of them to be authoritative below 20 Hz.


Ported subs have a *huge* SPL advantage around their tuning point. So large ported subs that are tuned below 20 Hz (Large & Low-Tune or LLT) are a very efficient way to generate plenty of ULFs. While my SVS Pluses are not that large compared to some designs, they fit the bill for me: they're incapable of doing anything of interest below 15 Hz but I get tremendous output in the 15-20 Hz region in 16-Hz tuning, which is really fun. So in a sense I sacrificed sub-15 Hz output for lots of 15-20 Hz output and with a limited budget (and space!) that was a good strategy I think.

For example, no sealed SVS sub -- even the Ultra -- can even approach the 16 Hz output from a Plus in 16 Hz tuning (just compare on data-bass.com). Thus saying that you don't want a ported sub in order to get more low-end extension instead of high SPL is a bit misleading. However the sealed subs are typically cheaper, more compact, etc. And it's the only way to reach lower. Dual XS30se are packing quite a punch and may indeed dig pretty low given the right room gain profile.



Yeah sorry about that, I'm not making your life easier am I? Things were much simpler for us Canadians when there was only SVS in town

Also you must be aware that even if you do buy dual XS30's, it won't be the end of the road, and that each dollar invested in more and more powerful subs have diminishing returns in terms of final effect at the listening position. Replacing the Velodyne (which, depending on the model, might even struggle with 30 Hz) with a single $799 XS15 that can reach 100 dB SPL at 20 Hz will be a great upgrade, and so would going from a single XS15 to dual XS30, but the price step would be much steeper at more than $2000.

So you should set a budget and hard constraints (like available space) and just choose a good sub that fits within those. You can't really go wrong with any PSA or SVS sub anyway.
That is not 100% true. You can get solid 10hz performance out of ported subs. They just need to be large enough to allow the lower tuning. Mark Seaton has a few prototype Terraform XL 18's that are tuned to 11hz and 2 of them have more output then 4 Seaton SubM's in the 10-30hz region, but similar output in the 40-100hz.

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post #13864 of 13878 Old Today, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
The single X15se managed 100dB or so down to 10hz when Josh Ricci measured it in his room during the review process. IIRC his room is between 3500-4000 cu-ft so a little larger than average. If the room was say 2000-2500 cu-ft I bet we would see another 3-6dB in the deepest bass. So dual XS15se in 2000-2500 cu-ft might be good for say....110-112dB down to 10hz. Not saying this is the end all be all of course....but I bet the XS15se(and XS30se by association) really surprise some folks. Don't let the low price fool you..




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Sorry Tom those numbers sound quite inflated to me. I am willing to lay a hundred dollar bill on that table that dual XS15se will not do 110-112db @ 10hz in any room larger then a closet. 105-106db sounds more realistic. There is just not enough excursion and power capability on tap for that to happen. Dual XS30se I could see doing 110-112db @ 10hz.
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post #13865 of 13878 Old Today, 09:41 AM
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Just for discussion sake, here are some (not so great) pics of my room.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ns7rxeykq...K7sB3NrCa?dl=0


I could envision placing an XS15 or XS30 in the spot in the rear right corner where my current sub is located. Obviously, this may or may not be an ideal position. There is some flexibility to move it here or there a little bit if needed, perhaps even moving over more behind my MLP.

If I go with dual subs, I'm not too sure where the next best spot would be to place it. On either side of the cabinet in front, I only have about 13" to the speaker - if I widen this to squeeze in an XS15, the main speakers would be directly below my front presence, which is less than ideal.

The other 2 spots I have thought of are to the rear left of my listening position, and in the right front corner (although) this would be in the current "playzone", so both WAF and KAF (Kid Acceptance Factor) would be a problem.

All to kind of say that maybe I am "stuck" for now with just the one spot (the current spot) and cross fingers that somewhere within that area is a nice sweet spot, and just go for the gusto with an XS30.

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post #13866 of 13878 Old Today, 09:57 AM
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Sorry Tom those numbers sound quite inflated to me. I am willing to lay a hundred dollar bill on that table that dual XS15se will not do 110-112db @ 10hz in any room larger then a closet. 105-106db sounds more realistic. There is just not enough excursion and power capability on tap for that to happen. Dual XS30se I could see doing 110-112db @ 10hz.
I just quoted the Josh Ricci data-set(did you see the thumbnail?). Halving the room will get you 3-6 more for sure. Adding a seocnd another 6. Not sure where you feel anything could be "inflated"?

There is so much efficiency gain involved when you go from outside 2m to inside a room. First you have all the gain from corner loading. Than add in the pressure vessel effect. you could be looking at 12-18dB easy(at 10hz).

With a high motor driver able to work against all the pressure involved this type of performance isn't really a surprise.

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Here is another example of a quality sealed sub hitting 100dB @10hz







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post #13868 of 13878 Old Today, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
I just quoted the Josh Ricci data-set(did you see the thumbnail?). Halving the room will get you 3-6 more for sure. Adding a seocnd another 6. Not sure where you feel anything could be "inflated"?

There is so much efficiency gain involved when you go from outside 2m to inside a room. First you have all the gain from corner loading. Than add in the pressure vessel effect. you could be looking at 12-18dB easy(at 10hz).

With a high motor driver able to work against all the pressure involved this type of performance isn't really a surprise.

Tom V.
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Tom, maybe I'm just being obtuse, but how does one analyze/process this information for real world application?

Does this mean I have to be at 110db to get down to 10Hz? And that is at 2M, not at MLP? So, if my MLP is 3m away, that is going to be 104db, right? But I thought the calibration goal was to bring speakers to "reference" at 75db for the MLP?

Sorry for asking such basic questions; but if my MLP is, say, 3M from the sub, but I don't listen at reference levels, does that mean I'm not going to get down to 10Hz (which goes back to what neutro was saying above about the connection between extension and SPL).

This inability to understand (at least on my part) what these numbers really mean is yet another reason I have such difficulty choosing my next sub(s)

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Tom, maybe I'm just being obtuse, but how does one analyze/process this information for real world application?

Does this mean I have to be at 110db to get down to 10Hz? And is that at the sub, at 2M or at MLP?

Sorry for asking such basic questions; but if my MLP is, say, 3M from the sub, but I don't listen at reference levels, does that mean I'm not going to get down to 10Hz (which goes back to what neutro was saying above about the connection between extension and SPL).

Maybe I can help. Since I don't know where your understanding is at, I'll explain some basics. What we are discussing are the CEA2010 figures. This is the SPL (or volume for laymen's) where too much distortion occurs for proper sound reproduction. Using your example, your sub will produce 10hz at a volume of 0-110dB. The louder the sound, the more taxing it is on the subwoofer, and 110dB is the 'max.'


Now your second paragraph is a really good question. To sum it up, you'll still get 10hz, but no one can 'hear' 10 hz. That's a sound that you feel.
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post #13870 of 13878 Old Today, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
The single X15se managed 100dB or so down to 10hz when Josh Ricci measured it in his room during the review process.
I had seen the outdoors CEA-2010 numbers but not those indoors. Impressive to say the least and I'm more than willing to let the XS15 surprise me. But in-room acoustics are a complicated matter... In the end I'll be perfectly happy with good 20 Hz performance and clean upper bass, but I'll try to find time for a REW measurement as soon as possible. Not sure when I'll be able to perform a max SPL sweep though.

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That is not 100% true. You can get solid 10hz performance out of ported subs. They just need to be large enough to allow the lower tuning. Mark Seaton has a few prototype Terraform XL 18's that are tuned to 11hz and 2 of them have more output then 4 Seaton SubM's in the 10-30hz region, but similar output in the 40-100hz.
Ha! Those Terraform XL again Well sure, if you have no budget or space restrictions, you can do wonders. I think I saw threads in which people were literally transforming a closet (under stairs) into a ported sub. One thing to consider though as you browse the data on data-bass.com is that the lower the tuning, the more spread-out the output from the port seems to be. For example, take the Rhytmik FV15HP and compare 1-port and 2-port configurations (1-port is 11 Hz tuning I believe). It almost looks like a sealed sub is the limit case for a sub tuned to 0 Hz

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Does this mean I have to be at 110db to get down to 10Hz? And is that at the sub, at 2M or at MLP?
The posted numbers say "mic at head position" -- that means the measurement were done with the sub in-room, and the mic at the listening position at head level, presumably further than 2 meters away.

As for at which listening level we begin perceiving ULF, this is subject to debate and probably variable from person to person. There may also be strange acoustical effects in play -- see the SPL (sound pressure level) vs PVL (particle velocity level) debate in the ULF thread. The short version is that under 20 Hz, sound pressure measurements are not enough to fully characterize what is going on, as it looks like two different setups achieving the same SPL level at 15 Hz may offer a very different tactile experience to the "listener".

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Sorry for asking such basic questions; but if my MLP is, say, 3M from the sub, but I don't listen at reference levels, does that mean I'm not going to get down to 10Hz (which goes back to what neutro was saying above about the connection between extension and SPL).
"Going down to 10 Hz" traditionally means that 10 Hz is inside your +/- 3 dB flatness window. But even if you have a flat response down there, I argue that if it's not loud enough you won't perceive it. You don't necessary need to listen at reference level, but watching a movie at -40 dB from reference will indeed prevent you from experiencing the more tactile forms of LFEs.

I myself have not watched a lot of movies close to reference level, but it's a special experience with the right sub setup

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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
I just quoted the Josh Ricci data-set(did you see the thumbnail?). Halving the room will get you 3-6 more for sure. Adding a seocnd another 6. Not sure where you feel anything could be "inflated"?

There is so much efficiency gain involved when you go from outside 2m to inside a room. First you have all the gain from corner loading. Than add in the pressure vessel effect. you could be looking at 12-18dB easy(at 10hz).

With a high motor driver able to work against all the pressure involved this type of performance isn't really a surprise.

Tom V.
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Adding numbers up that way does not really mean you will see that output. The best bet is to add 12db the lowest passing signal which was 12.5hz. So adding 12db to the 89db 12.5hz(6db for a second and 6db for in room) you get 101db. Factor in the 10db room gain ricci room added and now you are 111db. Now subtract 6-8db for distance from the sub(which most people sit 12ft on avg.) That equals 103-105db.

Aside from that my 3 XV15se are good for about 115db @ 16hz in a 2400^3 room...so no I do not see dual XS15's doing 112db @ 10hz.

Edit

Looking further at Ricci's in room chart shows 100db @ 10hz from the LP. So adding a second would be 104-106db. So you are saying that in a smaller room that you would see another 3-6db ouput. That is possibly but I wouls say highly unlikely being Ricci is getting 10-12db of room gain which is really good. If I am not mistaken 12db is the most room gain you can get no?


To top it off, Bear posted a REW graph of his XS30 hitting 100db @ 10hz before it was out of steam.

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Little late to the "hey I'm Canadian and gonna go from an SVS to a PSA sub" party, but after a fairly brief (for me) amount of research, I plan on taking the plunge this weekend on dual XS30se's to replace my SVS PB-12 Plus. To paraphrase literally hundreds of people on this site: "great sub, but wanted more".

Will report back with impressions once I get em.
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Wow dual XS30's, that is a lot of subwoofage in a single order Mind to tell us where you live and what was the tax & shipping costs involved?

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Wow dual XS30's, that is a lot of subwoofage in a single order Mind to tell us where you live and what was the tax & shipping costs involved?
I'm lucky - I live about 4 minutes from the border near Niagara Falls. So I will just get them shipped to a "mailbox" service in NY and go pick them up. I then hide them under my shirt and drive back across the border without raising suspicion.

(If you work at Canadian customs and are reading this, don't worry, I really can't hide them under my shirt).
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Adding numbers up that way does not really mean you will see that output. The best bet is to add 12db the lowest passing signal which was 12.5hz. So adding 12db to the 89db 12.5hz(6db for a second and 6db for in room) you get 101db. Factor in the 10db room gain ricci room added and now you are 111db. Now subtract 6-8db for distance from the sub(which most people sit 12ft on avg.) That equals 103-105db.

The inverse square law doesn't work in room because of all the reflections. Going from 2m to 4m you might see anywhere from 2-4dB drop on avg. I won't comment on the other text as it appears you have corrected your assumptions below.


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Aside from that my 3 XV15se are good for about 115db @ 16hz in a 2400^3 room...so no I do not see dual XS15's doing 112db @ 10hz
I'm not sure I see the correlation? Different rooms, different subs, different frequencies, and you have a multi thousand dollar high resolution rig versus a consumer grade rig. Quite a few variables.


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Edit
Looking further at Ricci's in room chart shows 100db @ 10hz from the LP. So adding a second would be 104-106db. So you are saying that in a smaller room that you would see another 3-6db ouput. That is possibly but I wouls say highly unlikely being Ricci is getting 10-12db of room gain which is really good. If I am not mistaken 12db is the most room gain you can get no?

At 10hz....you are going to get a full 6dB maybe a little more. You are talking about sound waves over 100 foot long...so mutual coupling will be in full effect.. Here are a couple of links showing measured room gain. http://www.nousaine.com/pdfs/Monster%20Bass.pdf

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=c...0#!prettyPhoto[pp_gal]/4/

So the reality is 100 + 6 +3-6(room half the size) or 109-112. You can subtract a couple if the seating positions moves from 6ft to say 10ft.


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To top it off, Bear posted a REW graph of his XS30 hitting 100db @ 10hz before it was out of steam.
Again, different model, different room, different source(?), and a very expensive professional grade test rig versus a consumer grade rig. Will the latter make much difference? Trying to measure THD in room at 10hz....I bet it might.

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Little late to the "hey I'm Canadian and gonna go from an SVS to a PSA sub" party, but after a fairly brief (for me) amount of research, I plan on taking the plunge this weekend on dual XS30se's to replace my SVS PB-12 Plus. To paraphrase literally hundreds of people on this site: "great sub, but wanted more".

Will report back with impressions once I get em.
The XS30se are in stock and ready to roll. Let me know if i can be any assistance in your ordering process.

I believe you will find the dual XS30se combo to extend much deeper with roughly 4x the output capabilities(weighed toward the mid and upper bass "slam" area).

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Originally Posted by Steveo1717 View Post
I'm lucky - I live about 4 minutes from the border near Niagara Falls. So I will just get them shipped to a "mailbox" service in NY and go pick them up. I then hide them under my shirt and drive back across the border without raising suspicion.

(If you work at Canadian customs and are reading this, don't worry, I really can't hide them under my shirt).

Hey Steve...it's been awhile. I know when you were last here(~1yr ago) I had my funk sub...if you're up this way...you'd be more than welcome to come over again. I have not spoken to Matt in some time...have you heard from him and how is he doing & is he still enjoying that old sub of mine.

I would have loved to go over and see his place...he sent me some pictures. I could have brought my XS30 se in his dedicated HT room and see how things sound with both subs filling that room...it would have been insane....

When you get those XS30se set-up...I'd love to hear your thoughts....



Ps...they should easily keep pace with those RF7s...

Re,

Bill

Old Indian proverb: We don't inherit the earth from our ancestors, but we borrow it from our children!

Ascend Acoustics (NrT)Towers, STC w RAAL, 200 SE in espresso
54" of Panasonic Bliss, Anthem MRX 300
Sony BDP-S380, TechnicsCD player, Apple TV
PSA XS30 SE in Cordovan Cherry

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steveo1717 View Post
I'm lucky - I live about 4 minutes from the border near Niagara Falls. So I will just get them shipped to a "mailbox" service in NY and go pick them up.
Now I have to inquire about which vehicle you're driving

Seriously I'm not good at visualizing volumes but I guess two packaged XS30 wouldn't fit in my compact hatchback.
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