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post #13861 of 14435 Old 09-19-2014, 08:40 AM
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Thanks. Sorry I wasn't quite clear - I don't actually own RC-70s, just wishing I did

Not sure what speakers I might end up going with; unfortunately I have to work around the size of the center channel as it has to fit in a cabinet below the TV; many of the center channels are too tall by an inch or 2

I've actually read that the Axioms (I'm thinking M80 or M100) have a similar sound/performance to the Paradigm Studio line for far less money. But, don't know how true this is as I've never listened to either. My local dealer is discounting some demo Studios, but I'll admit I'm not really a fan of piano finish, especially with small kids around. Plus I'm interested to see what happens, if anything, with discounting on the Monitor line and the Studio line now that the new Prestige line has been announced. If the deals are good enough....

Any, on the subwoofer front, the XS30 does look pretty nice, and gets you the output of 2 x XS15's (or better) for less money; but concerned about the size/weight, placement options, and the inability to smooth that multiple subs would offer.

NP....the RC70s were solid speakers...I had the 30s,10s and LCR. I also owned some Axioms at the time. For the record that picture in my sig has a Svs SB13U atop my XS30 for comparison size. Yeah its big but not by most conventional subwoofer standards often see around here...lol.


If you decide to go with PSA sub in the end...you could discuss some of the upcoming speakers being offered in a pre-order sale deals with Tom.


Happy hunting...

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post #13862 of 14435 Old 09-19-2014, 08:40 AM
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Hmmm...maybe I need to make a quick trip from NB to Quebec!
Before you do, let me act as a spotter first -- or at least I'll point you to the phone numbers of the 3 local FS. They don't advertise the RC-70s at all on the website now. Last time I checked was this summer. They may be gone now, but if not, there is a chance you could find five RC-70s in Quebec City if you're willing to use a tower as your center speaker. Not a common setup but perfect timbre match. That being said, good speakers are not that hard to find and you may be better with a brand that actually is willing to distribute and sell their speakers in a consistent manner.

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I have kind of "settled" on sealed subs after talking a couple of times with Tom. My listening levels are not extreme (nowhere near reference); but as the system is mostly movie & TV, little music, I'm interested in good low extension, rather than max SPL.
I don't want to further confuse you -- on the contrary -- but what I've learned these past few years is that extension and max SPL are in fact linked, as it's exponentially harder to get a sub to play a given SPL level as the frequency goes down, but at the same time, the threshold of human hearing / perception goes way up as the frequency goes down. This means that if your setup can play a flat 90 dB SPL even to single-digit frequencies, well I'm convinced you won't perceive much below 20 Hz. Can you even perceive 10 Hz below 100 dB SPL? I'm not even sure.

The only way to get lots of SPL at very low frequencies (e.g. 10 Hz) is to use a sealed sub as the low-frequency roll-off is much gentler than with a ported or passive radiator or horn sub. This in turn can be picked up by natural vessel (room) gain. But again, to get lots of SPL at subsonic frequencies, you need monster subs and kilowatts of power. While I'm impressed by the XS15se's specs, I don't expect one or even two of them to be authoritative below 20 Hz.

Ported subs have a *huge* SPL advantage around their tuning point. So large ported subs that are tuned below 20 Hz (Large & Low-Tune or LLT) are a very efficient way to generate plenty of ULFs. While my SVS Pluses are not that large compared to some designs, they fit the bill for me: they're incapable of doing anything of interest below 15 Hz but I get tremendous output in the 15-20 Hz region in 16-Hz tuning, which is really fun. So in a sense I sacrificed sub-15 Hz output for lots of 15-20 Hz output and with a limited budget (and space!) that was a good strategy I think.

For example, no sealed SVS sub -- even the Ultra -- can even approach the 16 Hz output from a Plus in 16 Hz tuning (just compare on data-bass.com). Thus saying that you don't want a ported sub in order to get more low-end extension instead of high SPL is a bit misleading. However the sealed subs are typically cheaper, more compact, etc. And it's the only way to reach lower. Dual XS30se are packing quite a punch and may indeed dig pretty low given the right room gain profile.

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All of this is why I just can't make any decision! I just know I want something different than the Velodyne I currently have which has lots of SPL, but not much low extension.
Yeah sorry about that, I'm not making your life easier am I? Things were much simpler for us Canadians when there was only SVS in town

Also you must be aware that even if you do buy dual XS30's, it won't be the end of the road, and that each dollar invested in more and more powerful subs have diminishing returns in terms of final effect at the listening position. Replacing the Velodyne (which, depending on the model, might even struggle with 30 Hz) with a single $799 XS15 that can reach 100 dB SPL at 20 Hz will be a great upgrade, and so would going from a single XS15 to dual XS30, but the price step would be much steeper at more than $2000.

So you should set a budget and hard constraints (like available space) and just choose a good sub that fits within those. You can't really go wrong with any PSA or SVS sub anyway.
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post #13863 of 14435 Old 09-19-2014, 09:21 AM
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I don't want to further confuse you -- on the contrary -- but what I've learned these past few years is that extension and max SPL are in fact linked, as it's exponentially harder to get a sub to play a given SPL level as the frequency goes down, but at the same time, the threshold of human hearing / perception goes way up as the frequency goes down. This means that if your setup can play a flat 90 dB SPL even to single-digit frequencies, well I'm convinced you won't perceive much below 20 Hz. Can you even perceive 10 Hz below 100 dB SPL? I'm not even sure.

The only way to get lots of SPL at very low frequencies (e.g. 10 Hz) is to use a sealed sub as the low-frequency roll-off is much gentler than with a ported or passive radiator or horn sub. This in turn can be picked up by natural vessel (room) gain. But again, to get lots of SPL at subsonic frequencies, you need monster subs and kilowatts of power. While I'm impressed by the XS15se's specs, I don't expect one or even two of them to be authoritative below 20 Hz.

The single X15se managed 100dB or so down to 10hz when Josh Ricci measured it in his room during the review process. IIRC his room is between 3500-4000 cu-ft so a little larger than average. If the room was say 2000-2500 cu-ft I bet we would see another 3-6dB in the deepest bass. So dual XS15se in 2000-2500 cu-ft might be good for say....110-112dB down to 10hz. Not saying this is the end all be all of course....but I bet the XS15se(and XS30se by association) really surprise some folks. Don't let the low price fool you..




Tom V.
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post #13864 of 14435 Old 09-19-2014, 09:30 AM
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Before you do, let me act as a spotter first -- or at least I'll point you to the phone numbers of the 3 local FS. They don't advertise the RC-70s at all on the website now. Last time I checked was this summer. They may be gone now, but if not, there is a chance you could find five RC-70s in Quebec City if you're willing to use a tower as your center speaker. Not a common setup but perfect timbre match. That being said, good speakers are not that hard to find and you may be better with a brand that actually is willing to distribute and sell their speakers in a consistent manner.



I don't want to further confuse you -- on the contrary -- but what I've learned these past few years is that extension and max SPL are in fact linked, as it's exponentially harder to get a sub to play a given SPL level as the frequency goes down, but at the same time, the threshold of human hearing / perception goes way up as the frequency goes down. This means that if your setup can play a flat 90 dB SPL even to single-digit frequencies, well I'm convinced you won't perceive much below 20 Hz. Can you even perceive 10 Hz below 100 dB SPL? I'm not even sure.

The only way to get lots of SPL at very low frequencies (e.g. 10 Hz) is to use a sealed sub as the low-frequency roll-off is much gentler than with a ported or passive radiator or horn sub. This in turn can be picked up by natural vessel (room) gain. But again, to get lots of SPL at subsonic frequencies, you need monster subs and kilowatts of power. While I'm impressed by the XS15se's specs, I don't expect one or even two of them to be authoritative below 20 Hz.


Ported subs have a *huge* SPL advantage around their tuning point. So large ported subs that are tuned below 20 Hz (Large & Low-Tune or LLT) are a very efficient way to generate plenty of ULFs. While my SVS Pluses are not that large compared to some designs, they fit the bill for me: they're incapable of doing anything of interest below 15 Hz but I get tremendous output in the 15-20 Hz region in 16-Hz tuning, which is really fun. So in a sense I sacrificed sub-15 Hz output for lots of 15-20 Hz output and with a limited budget (and space!) that was a good strategy I think.

For example, no sealed SVS sub -- even the Ultra -- can even approach the 16 Hz output from a Plus in 16 Hz tuning (just compare on data-bass.com). Thus saying that you don't want a ported sub in order to get more low-end extension instead of high SPL is a bit misleading. However the sealed subs are typically cheaper, more compact, etc. And it's the only way to reach lower. Dual XS30se are packing quite a punch and may indeed dig pretty low given the right room gain profile.



Yeah sorry about that, I'm not making your life easier am I? Things were much simpler for us Canadians when there was only SVS in town

Also you must be aware that even if you do buy dual XS30's, it won't be the end of the road, and that each dollar invested in more and more powerful subs have diminishing returns in terms of final effect at the listening position. Replacing the Velodyne (which, depending on the model, might even struggle with 30 Hz) with a single $799 XS15 that can reach 100 dB SPL at 20 Hz will be a great upgrade, and so would going from a single XS15 to dual XS30, but the price step would be much steeper at more than $2000.

So you should set a budget and hard constraints (like available space) and just choose a good sub that fits within those. You can't really go wrong with any PSA or SVS sub anyway.
That is not 100% true. You can get solid 10hz performance out of ported subs. They just need to be large enough to allow the lower tuning. Mark Seaton has a few prototype Terraform XL 18's that are tuned to 11hz and 2 of them have more output then 4 Seaton SubM's in the 10-30hz region, but similar output in the 40-100hz.

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post #13865 of 14435 Old 09-19-2014, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
The single X15se managed 100dB or so down to 10hz when Josh Ricci measured it in his room during the review process. IIRC his room is between 3500-4000 cu-ft so a little larger than average. If the room was say 2000-2500 cu-ft I bet we would see another 3-6dB in the deepest bass. So dual XS15se in 2000-2500 cu-ft might be good for say....110-112dB down to 10hz. Not saying this is the end all be all of course....but I bet the XS15se(and XS30se by association) really surprise some folks. Don't let the low price fool you..




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Sorry Tom those numbers sound quite inflated to me. I am willing to lay a hundred dollar bill on that table that dual XS15se will not do 110-112db @ 10hz in any room larger then a closet. 105-106db sounds more realistic. There is just not enough excursion and power capability on tap for that to happen. Dual XS30se I could see doing 110-112db @ 10hz.
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post #13866 of 14435 Old 09-19-2014, 09:41 AM
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Just for discussion sake, here are some (not so great) pics of my room.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ns7rxeykq...K7sB3NrCa?dl=0


I could envision placing an XS15 or XS30 in the spot in the rear right corner where my current sub is located. Obviously, this may or may not be an ideal position. There is some flexibility to move it here or there a little bit if needed, perhaps even moving over more behind my MLP.

If I go with dual subs, I'm not too sure where the next best spot would be to place it. On either side of the cabinet in front, I only have about 13" to the speaker - if I widen this to squeeze in an XS15, the main speakers would be directly below my front presence, which is less than ideal.

The other 2 spots I have thought of are to the rear left of my listening position, and in the right front corner (although) this would be in the current "playzone", so both WAF and KAF (Kid Acceptance Factor) would be a problem.

All to kind of say that maybe I am "stuck" for now with just the one spot (the current spot) and cross fingers that somewhere within that area is a nice sweet spot, and just go for the gusto with an XS30.
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post #13867 of 14435 Old 09-19-2014, 09:57 AM
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Sorry Tom those numbers sound quite inflated to me. I am willing to lay a hundred dollar bill on that table that dual XS15se will not do 110-112db @ 10hz in any room larger then a closet. 105-106db sounds more realistic. There is just not enough excursion and power capability on tap for that to happen. Dual XS30se I could see doing 110-112db @ 10hz.
I just quoted the Josh Ricci data-set(did you see the thumbnail?). Halving the room will get you 3-6 more for sure. Adding a seocnd another 6. Not sure where you feel anything could be "inflated"?

There is so much efficiency gain involved when you go from outside 2m to inside a room. First you have all the gain from corner loading. Than add in the pressure vessel effect. you could be looking at 12-18dB easy(at 10hz).

With a high motor driver able to work against all the pressure involved this type of performance isn't really a surprise.

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post #13868 of 14435 Old 09-19-2014, 10:04 AM
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Here is another example of a quality sealed sub hitting 100dB @10hz







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post #13869 of 14435 Old 09-19-2014, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
I just quoted the Josh Ricci data-set(did you see the thumbnail?). Halving the room will get you 3-6 more for sure. Adding a seocnd another 6. Not sure where you feel anything could be "inflated"?

There is so much efficiency gain involved when you go from outside 2m to inside a room. First you have all the gain from corner loading. Than add in the pressure vessel effect. you could be looking at 12-18dB easy(at 10hz).

With a high motor driver able to work against all the pressure involved this type of performance isn't really a surprise.

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Tom, maybe I'm just being obtuse, but how does one analyze/process this information for real world application?

Does this mean I have to be at 110db to get down to 10Hz? And that is at 2M, not at MLP? So, if my MLP is 3m away, that is going to be 104db, right? But I thought the calibration goal was to bring speakers to "reference" at 75db for the MLP?

Sorry for asking such basic questions; but if my MLP is, say, 3M from the sub, but I don't listen at reference levels, does that mean I'm not going to get down to 10Hz (which goes back to what neutro was saying above about the connection between extension and SPL).

This inability to understand (at least on my part) what these numbers really mean is yet another reason I have such difficulty choosing my next sub(s)

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post #13870 of 14435 Old 09-19-2014, 10:36 AM
 
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Tom, maybe I'm just being obtuse, but how does one analyze/process this information for real world application?

Does this mean I have to be at 110db to get down to 10Hz? And is that at the sub, at 2M or at MLP?

Sorry for asking such basic questions; but if my MLP is, say, 3M from the sub, but I don't listen at reference levels, does that mean I'm not going to get down to 10Hz (which goes back to what neutro was saying above about the connection between extension and SPL).

Maybe I can help. Since I don't know where your understanding is at, I'll explain some basics. What we are discussing are the CEA2010 figures. This is the SPL (or volume for laymen's) where too much distortion occurs for proper sound reproduction. Using your example, your sub will produce 10hz at a volume of 0-110dB. The louder the sound, the more taxing it is on the subwoofer, and 110dB is the 'max.'


Now your second paragraph is a really good question. To sum it up, you'll still get 10hz, but no one can 'hear' 10 hz. That's a sound that you feel.
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post #13871 of 14435 Old 09-19-2014, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
The single X15se managed 100dB or so down to 10hz when Josh Ricci measured it in his room during the review process.
I had seen the outdoors CEA-2010 numbers but not those indoors. Impressive to say the least and I'm more than willing to let the XS15 surprise me. But in-room acoustics are a complicated matter... In the end I'll be perfectly happy with good 20 Hz performance and clean upper bass, but I'll try to find time for a REW measurement as soon as possible. Not sure when I'll be able to perform a max SPL sweep though.

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That is not 100% true. You can get solid 10hz performance out of ported subs. They just need to be large enough to allow the lower tuning. Mark Seaton has a few prototype Terraform XL 18's that are tuned to 11hz and 2 of them have more output then 4 Seaton SubM's in the 10-30hz region, but similar output in the 40-100hz.
Ha! Those Terraform XL again Well sure, if you have no budget or space restrictions, you can do wonders. I think I saw threads in which people were literally transforming a closet (under stairs) into a ported sub. One thing to consider though as you browse the data on data-bass.com is that the lower the tuning, the more spread-out the output from the port seems to be. For example, take the Rhytmik FV15HP and compare 1-port and 2-port configurations (1-port is 11 Hz tuning I believe). It almost looks like a sealed sub is the limit case for a sub tuned to 0 Hz

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Does this mean I have to be at 110db to get down to 10Hz? And is that at the sub, at 2M or at MLP?
The posted numbers say "mic at head position" -- that means the measurement were done with the sub in-room, and the mic at the listening position at head level, presumably further than 2 meters away.

As for at which listening level we begin perceiving ULF, this is subject to debate and probably variable from person to person. There may also be strange acoustical effects in play -- see the SPL (sound pressure level) vs PVL (particle velocity level) debate in the ULF thread. The short version is that under 20 Hz, sound pressure measurements are not enough to fully characterize what is going on, as it looks like two different setups achieving the same SPL level at 15 Hz may offer a very different tactile experience to the "listener".

Quote:
Sorry for asking such basic questions; but if my MLP is, say, 3M from the sub, but I don't listen at reference levels, does that mean I'm not going to get down to 10Hz (which goes back to what neutro was saying above about the connection between extension and SPL).
"Going down to 10 Hz" traditionally means that 10 Hz is inside your +/- 3 dB flatness window. But even if you have a flat response down there, I argue that if it's not loud enough you won't perceive it. You don't necessary need to listen at reference level, but watching a movie at -40 dB from reference will indeed prevent you from experiencing the more tactile forms of LFEs.

I myself have not watched a lot of movies close to reference level, but it's a special experience with the right sub setup

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post #13872 of 14435 Old 09-19-2014, 12:02 PM
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I just quoted the Josh Ricci data-set(did you see the thumbnail?). Halving the room will get you 3-6 more for sure. Adding a seocnd another 6. Not sure where you feel anything could be "inflated"?

There is so much efficiency gain involved when you go from outside 2m to inside a room. First you have all the gain from corner loading. Than add in the pressure vessel effect. you could be looking at 12-18dB easy(at 10hz).

With a high motor driver able to work against all the pressure involved this type of performance isn't really a surprise.

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Adding numbers up that way does not really mean you will see that output. The best bet is to add 12db the lowest passing signal which was 12.5hz. So adding 12db to the 89db 12.5hz(6db for a second and 6db for in room) you get 101db. Factor in the 10db room gain ricci room added and now you are 111db. Now subtract 6-8db for distance from the sub(which most people sit 12ft on avg.) That equals 103-105db.

Aside from that my 3 XV15se are good for about 115db @ 16hz in a 2400^3 room...so no I do not see dual XS15's doing 112db @ 10hz.

Edit

Looking further at Ricci's in room chart shows 100db @ 10hz from the LP. So adding a second would be 104-106db. So you are saying that in a smaller room that you would see another 3-6db ouput. That is possibly but I wouls say highly unlikely being Ricci is getting 10-12db of room gain which is really good. If I am not mistaken 12db is the most room gain you can get no?


To top it off, Bear posted a REW graph of his XS30 hitting 100db @ 10hz before it was out of steam.

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post #13873 of 14435 Old 09-19-2014, 01:16 PM
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Little late to the "hey I'm Canadian and gonna go from an SVS to a PSA sub" party, but after a fairly brief (for me) amount of research, I plan on taking the plunge this weekend on dual XS30se's to replace my SVS PB-12 Plus. To paraphrase literally hundreds of people on this site: "great sub, but wanted more".

Will report back with impressions once I get em.
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post #13874 of 14435 Old 09-19-2014, 01:29 PM
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Wow dual XS30's, that is a lot of subwoofage in a single order Mind to tell us where you live and what was the tax & shipping costs involved?

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post #13875 of 14435 Old 09-19-2014, 01:37 PM
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Wow dual XS30's, that is a lot of subwoofage in a single order Mind to tell us where you live and what was the tax & shipping costs involved?
I'm lucky - I live about 4 minutes from the border near Niagara Falls. So I will just get them shipped to a "mailbox" service in NY and go pick them up. I then hide them under my shirt and drive back across the border without raising suspicion.

(If you work at Canadian customs and are reading this, don't worry, I really can't hide them under my shirt).
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post #13876 of 14435 Old 09-19-2014, 01:38 PM
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Adding numbers up that way does not really mean you will see that output. The best bet is to add 12db the lowest passing signal which was 12.5hz. So adding 12db to the 89db 12.5hz(6db for a second and 6db for in room) you get 101db. Factor in the 10db room gain ricci room added and now you are 111db. Now subtract 6-8db for distance from the sub(which most people sit 12ft on avg.) That equals 103-105db.

The inverse square law doesn't work in room because of all the reflections. Going from 2m to 4m you might see anywhere from 2-4dB drop on avg. I won't comment on the other text as it appears you have corrected your assumptions below.


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Aside from that my 3 XV15se are good for about 115db @ 16hz in a 2400^3 room...so no I do not see dual XS15's doing 112db @ 10hz
I'm not sure I see the correlation? Different rooms, different subs, different frequencies, and you have a multi thousand dollar high resolution rig versus a consumer grade rig. Quite a few variables.


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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Edit
Looking further at Ricci's in room chart shows 100db @ 10hz from the LP. So adding a second would be 104-106db. So you are saying that in a smaller room that you would see another 3-6db ouput. That is possibly but I wouls say highly unlikely being Ricci is getting 10-12db of room gain which is really good. If I am not mistaken 12db is the most room gain you can get no?

At 10hz....you are going to get a full 6dB maybe a little more. You are talking about sound waves over 100 foot long...so mutual coupling will be in full effect.. Here are a couple of links showing measured room gain. http://www.nousaine.com/pdfs/Monster%20Bass.pdf

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=c...0#!prettyPhoto[pp_gal]/4/

So the reality is 100 + 6 +3-6(room half the size) or 109-112. You can subtract a couple if the seating positions moves from 6ft to say 10ft.


Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
To top it off, Bear posted a REW graph of his XS30 hitting 100db @ 10hz before it was out of steam.
Again, different model, different room, different source(?), and a very expensive professional grade test rig versus a consumer grade rig. Will the latter make much difference? Trying to measure THD in room at 10hz....I bet it might.

Tom V.
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post #13877 of 14435 Old 09-19-2014, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Steveo1717 View Post
Little late to the "hey I'm Canadian and gonna go from an SVS to a PSA sub" party, but after a fairly brief (for me) amount of research, I plan on taking the plunge this weekend on dual XS30se's to replace my SVS PB-12 Plus. To paraphrase literally hundreds of people on this site: "great sub, but wanted more".

Will report back with impressions once I get em.
The XS30se are in stock and ready to roll. Let me know if i can be any assistance in your ordering process.

I believe you will find the dual XS30se combo to extend much deeper with roughly 4x the output capabilities(weighed toward the mid and upper bass "slam" area).

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post #13878 of 14435 Old 09-19-2014, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Steveo1717 View Post
I'm lucky - I live about 4 minutes from the border near Niagara Falls. So I will just get them shipped to a "mailbox" service in NY and go pick them up. I then hide them under my shirt and drive back across the border without raising suspicion.

(If you work at Canadian customs and are reading this, don't worry, I really can't hide them under my shirt).

Hey Steve...it's been awhile. I know when you were last here(~1yr ago) I had my funk sub...if you're up this way...you'd be more than welcome to come over again. I have not spoken to Matt in some time...have you heard from him and how is he doing & is he still enjoying that old sub of mine.

I would have loved to go over and see his place...he sent me some pictures. I could have brought my XS30 se in his dedicated HT room and see how things sound with both subs filling that room...it would have been insane....

When you get those XS30se set-up...I'd love to hear your thoughts....



Ps...they should easily keep pace with those RF7s...

Re,

Bill

Old Indian proverb: We don't inherit the earth from our ancestors, but we borrow it from our children!

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post #13879 of 14435 Old 09-19-2014, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Steveo1717 View Post
I'm lucky - I live about 4 minutes from the border near Niagara Falls. So I will just get them shipped to a "mailbox" service in NY and go pick them up.
Now I have to inquire about which vehicle you're driving

Seriously I'm not good at visualizing volumes but I guess two packaged XS30 wouldn't fit in my compact hatchback.
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post #13880 of 14435 Old 09-19-2014, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Cyborg_Optoma View Post
Thanks Alan.

Uploading pictures of my setup from YPAO.. I made "Volume Trim" levels to be at + 0.5 db on Treble and Bass and Similar values to "Tone Control" before running YPAO. (PS: I am unbale to upload all photos as they are too big and even a file I am trying to create out of these photos is little bit for the size requirement on AVS.. ) .. All the photos are in this pdf

Ran YPAO.. and then changed these two settings as follows :

Volume Trim :

Input Trim: +1.0 db
Subwoofer Trim: +6.0 db


Tone Control:

Treble: +1.0 db
Bass: +4.0 db


For some reason I see YPAO has set Front's to be as Large.. and I changed them to Small..

Also soon after YPAO.. it says 3/2/0.1 ch... are those the number of speakers it is saying I have in my setup ? I actually have 4 Towers 2 in "Front" L/R and then 2 in the outputs where it says "Surround Back/BI AMP/Zone B" ( I have it setup BI-AMP out of these ) so it outputs sound from all 4.. and when I do Speaker "Test Tone" with Pink Noise... for "Front L or R " the sound outputs from these speakers which are in "Surround Back/BI AMP/Zone B" L & R respectively..

And then the other inputs are usual... so I would say my setup is at 7.1 level .. My receiver is Yamaha RX-V575

But I am thinking to run the SPL meter configuration setting the meter at 75 db and then set all speakers to output 75 db on SPL meter...but will wait for your input and anyone else who wants me to help and let me know what needs to be changed... I would have taken the picture of the room.. but its too bad..I am still setting up this room.. no one comes here.. just me..


Appreciate your input.



Well I give up on the photo or pdf upload.. as the file size requirement is very less... I tried to lower the size but cannot help it...

I have uploaded the pdf file which contains all the photos I wanted to upload... no virus here.. sorry for the direct download link..

Thanks



PS:Ohh I just went back to see some of my old.. where I had attached few files .. photos... but I don't see they were attached.. probably the size was too high as each photo i I am trying to upload it at least 4mb and more... hugh.. don't know what I was trying to share then..
I'm sorry my friend but I didn't understand anything you just wrote above, maybe it's me, for now I would put your YPAO on hold for now and just run the pink noise from your AVR and measure all speakers and sub with a SPL meter, set your speakers to 75dB and run your sub a little hot 3-5dB but don't go on the + side of your sub trim level, in other words you want to be below 0dB or at it never on the + side with sub. I would ditch the Bi-amp feature as well.
Cheers Jeff

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post #13881 of 14435 Old 09-19-2014, 09:24 PM
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Hey Alan, Bass and others, I've lost faith in myself but I promise you I'll be back with some graphs for you to critique. Hearing that has given my new life to get this REW up and running. The sad part is I have the REW program installed, ASIO drivers installed, mic cal file downloaded, HDMI configured and a little table with new laptop behind the MLP to get started, I even tested my voice through the mic and recorded it, I have that file saved as well It's really nice to see so many new PSA sub owners joining the family
Cheers Jeff
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post #13882 of 14435 Old 09-19-2014, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Oh wow....I like hot but that seems excessive. If ypao set the trim -10, then he can not turn the amp gain up any further or ypao will say "out of range". I would probably just leave it. Also one thing I notice is if you run the full 8 point measurement, ypao tends to set the level of the subs higher.

For example, With a single point measurement, ypao sets the trim for my subs around -6.5. If I run a 8 point measurement, ypao sets the sub trim -2.5.
Hi -

do you know how to perform the 8 point measurement using YPAO ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Good catch bh. YPAO set his sub trim at -10....he's running 16db hot!
complete HTS noob here.. can you please explain me how it is 16 db hot and what it means by that..the sound level has - and + values.. - does not mean going down? and moving towards + should be like increasing the sound level /output isn't it ? as the receiver volume starts from -80 db and goes till some + number probably +10 db.. didn't go to those values so not sure the + max value.. on the receiver...

Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Just a suggestion, I would turn the amp gain on the subs and re run ypao so it sets the trim around -6 and then manually bump the trim up but do not go any higher then 0. Being you have the sub trim set +6, there is a good chance of clipping the input signal if you turn it up past -5 MV.
when you says amp gain you mean the gain knob on the sub ? only have 1 sub for now.. I re ran the YPAO.. and please suggest me what you think.. with the new values... Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Cyborg - why didn't you provide the SPL measurements I asked for??

Sharing photos is much easier if you use a photo hosting site like Photobucket.

As far as using 4 main speakers in "BIAMP" mode....not so sure that's a really good idea. Why are you doing that? Did you read up on your AVR and this configuration? I would guess it is not recommended.

You really only have 3/2/0.1, the front four speakers are treated as only 2 speakers.

There is no need to set your speaker levels with the SPL meter after you run YPAO, they should be already set. That is why I wanted you to measure their levels.

I notice in your photos that YPAO set your sub trim at -10db. Is that the lower limit of adjustment on your AVR? If so, you need to turn down the gain on the sub and re-run YPAO until you get a sub trim level that is "in range".

I also noticed that you are using "PEQ" under Equalizer. Not sure how it works on your AVR, but on my Denon if I enable the graphic EQ it disables all the hard work my auto-eq program did. You might want to look at your manual to see.

You should turn "Adaptive DRC" and "Enhancer" off. In general, all those type of extra "enhancements" should be turned off.


Now, give me some SPL measurements (with the settings that YPAO set)!
Hi Alan -

Thanks for replying back..sorry I didn't catch it earlier and thought you were just asking for sound levels that YPAO sets for each speaker..

Yes it was late last night and I was not able to remember any particular photo sharing website.... and just googled for photo uploader and that stupid website came up last night... I am going to upload all the new files now on photobucket.. heck I actually had an account over there that I created long time back and forgot.. lol.. Please sort by oldest picture if it shows end photos first.. Thanks

anywayz coming back to serious topic..

Thanks for pointing out the stupid configuration I had in my HTS.. is using BI-AMP setting harmful to receiver or speakers or ears ? as I had set that instead of " Basic " which is one of the 3 options that the receiver provides.. Basic, Bi-Amp & Zone B.... I saw that when I switch to Bi-Amp the sound output from the Surround Back Speakers gets bumped up drastically .. but I think it hurts the LFE i.e., the subs output level... now I can see it.. when the towers sound goes up.. bass from sub is lowered...so that is the reason the high output from towers made me use that option for the "Power Amp Assign" option in the receiver configuration...

Now before running YPAO again I changed it to Basic, turned off "Adaptive DRC" and "Enhancer" off & EXTD... to off.. but yes I used them as they too used to bump up the sound output on my HTS..

Volume Trim :

Input Trim: +0.5 db
Subwoofer Trim: +0.5 db


Tone Control:

Treble: +0.5 db
Bass: +0.5 db


Quote"

I notice in your photos that YPAO set your sub trim at -10db. Is that the lower limit of adjustment on your AVR? If so, you need to turn down the gain on the sub and re-run YPAO until you get a sub trim level that is "in range".

I also noticed that you are using "PEQ" under Equalizer. Not sure how it works on your AVR, but on my Denon if I enable the graphic EQ it disables all the hard work my auto-eq program did. You might want to look at your manual to see.

"Quote Ends

To answer these questions... yes YPAO set the sub sound level to -10 db..( is this trim too or sound level ? then what is the Volume Trim in other Menu..) and -10 db is the max it can go to... I actually had the sub gain at close to 3 o clock.... so I moved it to 12 o clock before running the new YPAO..

The PEQ is by default... I didn't do anything there.. I was just showing you what option it had in the Equalizer.. I think it is also set by YPAO.



Ok now coming to the new YPAO settings.. Please see the attached photos for output... ( for some reason it set the surround backs to Large.. I changed them to Small )

after YPAO finished I saw most of the speakers sound level was set to negative value...it seems too harsh to me..and feels a little awkward/annoying to hear and seem harsh to ears and make me listen to anything at low volume... is this called reference kind of level ? if not what is the reference level.. usually referred everywhere.. Earlier I used to get good amount of sound output from speakers and sub.. at around - 50 db on receiver.. now I have to bump up the sound on receiver to -40 db to get good room filling sound.. but again then it seems too bright or harsh to ears..


now coming to SPL meter readings for this YPAO run... I saw the below values for each speaker..

SPL Meter was set at 75 db

Sound on Receiver at - 10 db ( Played Pink Noise of Receiver from each speaker )

FL outputs 67 db on SPL meter at this volume
FR outputs 66 db on SPL meter at this volume
center outputs 66 on SPL meter at this volume
Surround L outputs 65 on SPL meter at this volume
Surround R outputs 64 on SPL meter at this volume
Surround back L outputs 67 on SPL meter at this volume
Surrounnd back R outputs 67 on SPL meter at this volume
Sub outputs 67-68-69 on SPL meter at this volume

going by these values.. I believe I need to play with sound levels for each speaker to get them to match 75 db on SPL meter ? as the values that they are outputting is low..

I really want to change the sound levels for each speaker to meet the 75 mark on SPL.. meter.. but will wait for your reply..

Almost forgot to mention.. now I have set the sub gain at 2 o clock.. as I was barely hearing anything out of the sub.. at 12 o clock.. unless I bump up the receiver level.. and it is too bright/sharp for me now to hear at higher volumes..

Please let me know what needs to be done next by me.

Thanks appreciate your help to this noob..

PS: Thanks again for your inputs guys... and sorry for the lengthy posts here.. appreciate you guys patience and answers..

Last edited by Cyborg_Optoma; 09-19-2014 at 11:08 PM.
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post #13883 of 14435 Old 09-19-2014, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
I'm sorry my friend but I didn't understand anything you just wrote above, maybe it's me, for now I would put your YPAO on hold for now and just run the pink noise from your AVR and measure all speakers and sub with a SPL meter, set your speakers to 75dB and run your sub a little hot 3-5dB but don't go on the + side of your sub trim level, in other words you want to be below 0dB or at it never on the + side with sub. I would ditch the Bi-amp feature as well.
Cheers Jeff

Thanks Jeff.

I have ditched the bi amp feature...

I am ready to match the speakers to 75 db on spl meter.. as they are now showing to be below 70db for each speaker...

Will just wait for Alan's confirmation and go from there

Thanks again for your inputs... and sorry for the lengthy posts here.. appreciate you guys patience and answers..
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post #13884 of 14435 Old 09-20-2014, 04:20 PM
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cyborg, it depends on the model of your Yamaha. only the 77x models on up feature multipoint measurement. I must say it made a vast improvement in the sound too.
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post #13885 of 14435 Old 09-20-2014, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyborg_Optoma View Post
Thanks Jeff.

I have ditched the bi amp feature...

I am ready to match the speakers to 75 db on spl meter.. as they are now showing to be below 70db for each speaker...

Will just wait for Alan's confirmation and go from there

Thanks again for your inputs... and sorry for the lengthy posts here.. appreciate you guys patience and answers..

It doesn't matter what the master volume on your receiver is set at when running the receiver's pink noise or test tones, so don't worry about that, just calibrate each speaker to 75dB using the receivers trim levels, raise or lower it to get 75dB for each speaker and then I like to run my sub about 5dB hot not +5dB on the receiver, 5dB on the SPL meter, turn your sub gain on the back of the sub's amp to about 2:00 and see what the meter reads, if it's above 80dB lower the trim level in the receiver to a - value, ex- -3dB, and don't touch the receivers volume knob while taking these SPL readings, then just post your readings, it will take a minute or two to type your results, then we can proceed to room correction software or YPAO. Hope this helps Cy.
Cheers Jeff

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post #13886 of 14435 Old 09-20-2014, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyborg_Optoma View Post
Thanks Jeff.

I have ditched the bi amp feature...

I am ready to match the speakers to 75 db on spl meter.. as they are now showing to be below 70db for each speaker...

Will just wait for Alan's confirmation and go from there

Thanks again for your inputs... and sorry for the lengthy posts here.. appreciate you guys patience and answers..
Hey Cy you don't have your speakers wired for a bi-amp configuration, do you, you only have a stereo connection, red and black connected, two ends only not four wires correct?
Jeff

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post #13887 of 14435 Old 09-21-2014, 08:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
The single X15se managed 100dB or so down to 10hz when Josh Ricci measured it in his room during the review process. IIRC his room is between 3500-4000 cu-ft so a little larger than average. If the room was say 2000-2500 cu-ft I bet we would see another 3-6dB in the deepest bass. So dual XS15se in 2000-2500 cu-ft might be good for say....110-112dB down to 10hz. Not saying this is the end all be all of course....but I bet the XS15se(and XS30se by association) really surprise some folks. Don't let the low price fool you..




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Tom, in a 2000-2500 cu-ft sealed space, a single XS 15se would probably pressurize the whole room.

That's amazing power for a such a small single sub. I think this sub has torn me away from the JL Audio E-Sub12. The XS is close enough, but half the cost.
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post #13888 of 14435 Old 09-21-2014, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
Tom, in a 2000-2500 cu-ft sealed space, a single XS 15se would probably pressurize the whole room.

That's amazing power for a such a small single sub. I think this sub has torn me away from the JL Audio E-Sub12. The XS is close enough, but half the cost.

The E112 and XS15se have near identical extension and output although I do expect the XS15se to have a "slight" edge overall in the latter.

I'm not sure what the "street" pricing is on the e112 but the XS15se is obviously $799.

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post #13889 of 14435 Old 09-21-2014, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
The E112 and XS15se have near identical extension and output although I do expect the XS15se to have a "slight" edge overall in the latter.

I'm not sure what the "street" pricing is on the e112 but the XS15se is obviously $799.

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It can be bought from crutchfield for $1899 with free shipping even to Hawaii.
So for about $900 more than a XS15sev I can get the same performance. Awesome!
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post #13890 of 14435 Old 09-22-2014, 08:03 AM
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quick question for the experts here:

when I'm doing a sub-crawl, how should I have my receiver set? The reason for the question is that my sub distance was set high by the receiver. I've adjusted it down to a value that more accurately reflects the distance between the sub and my MLP and it sounds MUCH better. As there's a difference in sound based upon the actual distance versus the set distance, I'm guessing that having the receiver distance set "wrong" would have an impact on the sub-crawl results. Is that accurate? If so, how do I address the issue when doing the sub-crawl? Set the receiver for "through"?

Thanks,

Mike
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