Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 467 - AVS Forum
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post #13981 of 14010 Old Yesterday, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by neutro View Post
My pleasure



Ok so it's not as low as the Rhytmik FV15HP, say.



The question is, will it be *flat* to 10 Hz. Because, say, you reach "good output" at 10 Hz but it's 6 dB under your 20-80 Hz output. Will you really notice it? Furthermore as Tom said, while -15 to -10 dB from reference is moderately loud, I don't think you can expect to be swept away by sub-20 Hz output when listening at -25 dB.

I know because when watching movies with my GF with the kids tucked in bed, we rarely go above -25 dB and the circa 20 Hz rumbles are rather subtle even with DynamicEQ on.



That's a good point. What's the titular 10 Hz-content scene? Perhaps Black Hawk Down's F'ing Irene scene? I watched it yesterday on Jindrak's demo disc (because I wanted to debug XBMC LPCM playthrough on my HTPC but that's another story), on both of my setups, and I never was that impressed, because presumably they can't muster enough oomph at 10 Hz. I'm not sure what else to watch to test circa-10 Hz output, and I everybody on AVS that I see having lots of fun with that scene have dozens of kW at hands and multiple 18" IB or sealed drivers.

Like you basshead, I decided to put my money on good 15-20 Hz performance and it delivers, but then again only when I can raise the volume above -20 dB from ref
The FV15HP native tuning frequency is 14hz, so no the XV does not extend nearly as deep. Yea -20 is not going to give you much in the ELF department unless you are running a house curve. No the XS15 would not be anywhere near flat @ reference down to 10hz. To achieve a flat 115db from 10-100hz takes some major subage.
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post #13982 of 14010 Old Yesterday, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
OK guys, what would you do?

I've been messing with sub placement for what seem like forever. See this thread if you want to know the details.

Anyways, I've basically narrowed it down to 2 different configurations:

- 2 up front / 2 in back
- all 4 up front / 2 stacks of 2

This is with 4 XS15s (original, non-SE).

Here's the measurements:



Here's the waterfall comparison:





Green is front/back, red is stacked up front. As you can see, I'm getting much better extension with all 4 up front (+20db at 10hz!), but I have a huge suck-out from 55-67hz. I prefer the sound with all 4 up front, but seat-to-seat variance suffers...heck, if I just lean forward in my chair the response changes significantly. That being said, I rarely move around when watching a movie or doing critical music listening...and my wife couldn't care less. It could just be in my head, but I swear I miss that narrow band where the null is....it is pretty narrow though...prolly in my head.

Oh, and when I have all 4 up front, I only have to run the subs 4db hot. When they are in the rear I bump them up 7db.

I want to get a couple more subs to put in the back of the room fill in that null and smooth across seats, but until funds become available....which set up would you want to live with?? Do you think upgrading all 4 to SE would be worthwhile or no?
I would go with 2 up front and 2 in the back if you can adjust phase and or delay to eliminate the low frequency cancellation occurring. Normally, phase issues result in cancellation at low frequencies(such as with one ported and one sealed)and that looks like exactly what you have. I know that when I adjust phase on my second sub, output below 30 Hz drops noticeably the more they get out of phase. As the phase aligns, output steadily goes up until the point where they are set up properly.

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post #13983 of 14010 Old Yesterday, 04:36 PM
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+1 to what Bear said.
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post #13984 of 14010 Old Yesterday, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
The FV15HP native tuning frequency is 14hz, so no the XV does not extend nearly as deep.
Correction: The FV15hp native tuning is 12Hz.
Straight from Rythmik product page
Multi-tune

18hz (2 port) and 12hz (1 port)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
OK guys, what would you do?
I want to get a couple more subs to put in the back of the room fill in that null and smooth across seats, but until funds become available....which set up would you want to live with?? Do you think upgrading all 4 to SE would be worthwhile or no?
4 upfront then adding an XS30 to the back nearfield to resolve the null and gain tactile feeling= DONE Upgrading to SE's probably will not change shape of your graph by much and it is probably more expensive than just adding an XS30 especially if you can find one used?
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post #13985 of 14010 Old Yesterday, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Correction: The FV15hp native tuning is 12Hz.
Straight from Rythmik product page
Multi-tune

18hz (2 port) and 12hz (1 port)
I pulled that info from data bass.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=51
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post #13986 of 14010 Old Yesterday, 08:21 PM
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^^ and it says 12hz tuning frequency in 1 port mode tested
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post #13987 of 14010 Old Yesterday, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ and it says 12hz tuning frequency in 1 port mode tested

It says that the tuning frequency of the test in single port mode is 12hz, but the native tuning frequency is 14hz
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post #13988 of 14010 Old Yesterday, 08:40 PM
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^^ I think it's Ricci's mistake. Rythmik clearly states 12hz tuning plus why would Ricci tested it below its tuning if it was 14?
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post #13989 of 14010 Old Yesterday, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ and it says 12hz tuning frequency in 1 port mode tested
That has nothing to do with it's "native" tuning point.

The whole point that I was trying to make is the FV15HP digs lower then the XV15 anyway.
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post #13990 of 14010 Old Yesterday, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ I think it's Ricci's mistake. Rythmik clearly states 12hz tuning plus why would Ricci tested it below its tuning if it was 14?

How long has he had that review up for now? A long time and "if" it was a mistake I'm sure it would have been corrected a long time ago.
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post #13991 of 14010 Old Yesterday, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
The whole point that I was trying to make is the FV15HP digs lower then the XV15 anyway.
I know your point. Someone asked that question and Rythmik said 12hz tuning in 1 port. Ok, now back to the regular PSA discussion

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post #13992 of 14010 Old Yesterday, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ I think it's Ricci's mistake. Rythmik clearly states 12hz tuning plus why would Ricci tested it below its tuning if it was 14?

Ricci states 12hz tune in 1 port, 18hz tune in 2 port, and 14hz native tune.
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post #13993 of 14010 Old Yesterday, 09:12 PM
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^^ I don't understand the 'native' tune as it can be either operated in one or two ports and nothing in between?
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post #13994 of 14010 Old Today, 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Billy p View Post
What speakers are you running with the XS30....I've experimented a ton with ARC and I seem to prefer large with sub flat & xo at 60hz...for music... no localization issues at all. The prefect balance between mains and sub....I'd say.

BTW..here is a nice Q&A with some of the design team at Anthem...good read if your inclined.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...k-platsis.html
Thanks for the link! I am using Klipsh Forte's as mains and just starting to play around with ARC. These mains perform very well with lower frequencies so trying settings similar to what you are using will be in the near future.

How much change did you notice from your XS30 when you upgraded to SE?
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post #13995 of 14010 Old Today, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by gbreda View Post
Thanks for the link! I am using Klipsh Forte's as mains and just starting to play around with ARC. These mains perform very well with lower frequencies so trying settings similar to what you are using will be in the near future.

How much change did you notice from your XS30 when you upgraded to SE?


Immediately...although not night and day. Transient response improved for sure. On some of the selected tracks with the SE driver...sounded more composed & better equipped to handle tight quick mid bass passages...without trying to sound hash... the original sounded a bit more exaggerated in some of those instances.


I know its asking a lot to pay for upgrading 2 driver for one sub...living in Canada I was looking at about ~700.00...that was a no go!

Luckily...I was able to pick these up while in the PSA area code this summer but if I was a US resident for ~500.00...that decision, if willing looks more affordable.


Ps: I don't have my ARC results handy but you could see a marginal bump >30hz & on up...this help flatten out the house curve and improved the overall sound...this alone made it worthwhile for me.

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post #13996 of 14010 Old Today, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ I think it's Ricci's mistake. Rythmik clearly states 12hz tuning plus why would Ricci tested it below its tuning if it was 14?

I'd say more like 20-21hz with two ports open and 14-15hz with one port open. Just going by memory here but 4.6 to 4.7 cu-ft internal with twin 3.5" ports that will max out at what 21-22"? The math is easy enough. Just google "port length calculator" and everyone can check for themselves.

Josh doesn't care about system tuning he just tries every frequency to see if he gets a passing CEA-2010 output.

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post #13997 of 14010 Old Today, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
The FV15HP native tuning frequency is 14hz, so no the XV does not extend nearly as deep. Yea -20 is not going to give you much in the ELF department unless you are running a house curve. No the XS15 would not be anywhere near flat @ reference down to 10hz. To achieve a flat 115db from 10-100hz takes some major subage.
With the 15hp in max output mode the extension is pretty close although the 15hp has the edge.

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post #13998 of 14010 Old Today, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
How long has he had that review up for now? A long time and "if" it was a mistake I'm sure it would have been corrected a long time ago.
Well there is one mistake that I can point out that has never been corrected. The FV15HP has 3.5" ports, not 3" ports.

Receiver - Denon 4311CI
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post #13999 of 14010 Old Today, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
I would go with 2 up front and 2 in the back if you can adjust phase and or delay to eliminate the low frequency cancellation occurring. Normally, phase issues result in cancellation at low frequencies(such as with one ported and one sealed)and that looks like exactly what you have. I know that when I adjust phase on my second sub, output below 30 Hz drops noticeably the more they get out of phase. As the phase aligns, output steadily goes up until the point where they are set up properly.
This is a very good answer, thanks Bear. This would require me to put that evil MiniDSP back in the chain....I had major issues with clipping before. I'll give it a go, trying higher gain on the subs and less trim in the MiniDSP to try and overcome the clipping issues.

Maybe I'll try using the RTA in REW and just adjusting the phase knobs first....prolly better to get the MiniDSP figured out though so I can properly time-align them.

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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
+1 to what Bear said.
Thanks bh!

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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
4 upfront then adding an XS30 to the back nearfield to resolve the null and gain tactile feeling= DONE Upgrading to SE's probably will not change shape of your graph by much and it is probably more expensive than just adding an XS30 especially if you can find one used?
This is probably what I'm gonna to do if time-aligning with the MiniDSP doesn't work out.
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post #14000 of 14010 Old Today, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
This is a very good answer, thanks Bear. This would require me to put that evil MiniDSP back in the chain....I had major issues with clipping before. I'll give it a go, trying higher gain on the subs and less trim in the MiniDSP to try and overcome the clipping issues.

Maybe I'll try using the RTA in REW and just adjusting the phase knobs first....prolly better to get the MiniDSP figured out though so I can properly time-align them.
If you are having issues with the mini-DSP I would probably just try phase adjustments on the rear subs until you get the highest low frequency output at a given sweep level.

Also, I think you should sell all four of your XS15's, then purchase two XS30se's...one up front, one in the back.

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if changing the phase on back of subs...you only have to change one sub correct?

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if changing the phase on back of subs...you only have to change one sub correct?
Generally yes. Changing both subs would keep them in phase (if adjusted the same) negating any changes.

You only have to change up to 180 degrees to correct phase between two subs so changing both would be unnecessary.

Changing the phase on the subs to correct crossover or phase mismatch with full range speakers is a little more tricky.
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post #14003 of 14010 Old Today, 09:16 AM
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if changing the phase on back of subs...you only have to change one sub correct?
If you only have 2 subs, yes.

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post #14004 of 14010 Old Today, 01:26 PM
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F'ing Irene is centered around 7hz.
Ah well perhaps asking a bit much out of a single XS15 then And my ported subs don't stand a chance. Any idea which scene would have clear, strong 10 Hz content?

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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Ricci states 12hz tune in 1 port, 18hz tune in 2 port, and 14hz native tune.
I think the confusion comes from this bit on Rhytmik's website:

Quote:
FV15HP has two port openings. With two ports open, the max extension is 18hz and the rumble filter should be set to ON/2 position. In the following is the frequency response when extension filter is set to 14hz and low damping.
18 Hz is the extension quoted for two ports open, so it should be close to the tuning frequency. The "extension filter set to 14 Hz" part is probably the cut-off of the high-pass rumble filter that is used to protect the driver.

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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
With the 15hp in max output mode the extension is pretty close although the 15hp has the edge.
My original point was that some subs such as the FV15HP have a very low tune that may help gathering enough output at 10 Hz to really matter without having to resort to monster DIY setups.

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Maybe I'll try using the RTA in REW and just adjusting the phase knobs first....prolly better to get the MiniDSP figured out though so I can properly time-align them.
Using the RTA in REW works quite well to hammer down phase issues like this. I'd recommend the most co-additions / averaging to reduce noise but in these conditions you have to give time for the signal to stabilize over a few seconds each time you make a change.

If reaching back for the phase knob is tedious, an obvious advantage of the MiniDSP is that you can individually adjust the distance setting for all your subs from the same laptop used to do RTA in REW. Not that phase-aligning 4 subs will be particularly easy but it can be done sitting comfortably while sipping herbal tea and not necessarily hunched behind a sub and squinting at your laptop screen on the coffee table.
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post #14005 of 14010 Old Today, 01:41 PM
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OHF Washington monument scene has strong 10hz

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OHF Washington monument scene has strong 10hz
Thanks, will keep this in mind. Though the scene isn't on the four demo discs I've got...

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Oh. How about the hallboy 2 scene. Or the huge dragon crash from httyd

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Originally Posted by neutro View Post
Using the RTA in REW works quite well to hammer down phase issues like this. I'd recommend the most co-additions / averaging to reduce noise but in these conditions you have to give time for the signal to stabilize over a few seconds each time you make a change.
Can you (or anyone here) recommend the best REW RTA settings for this procedure? I've always been kind of in the dark about the RTA settings.



Quote:
If reaching back for the phase knob is tedious, an obvious advantage of the MiniDSP is that you can individually adjust the distance setting for all your subs from the same laptop used to do RTA in REW. Not that phase-aligning 4 subs will be particularly easy but it can be done sitting comfortably while sipping herbal tea and not necessarily hunched behind a sub and squinting at your laptop screen on the coffee table.
Oh yeah, much easier with the MiniDSP....if I can figure out the clipping issues.

A few people suggested to turn up the sub gain and turn down the trim in the MiniDSP, I haven't tried it yet but hoping it will work for me!

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post #14009 of 14010 Old Today, 04:25 PM
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Well, finally got my theater setup in the new house. I had to replace an Epik Conquest that was too large for my smaller room (16x12), with an XS30SE. Experimented with nearfield placement, but wasn't terribly impressed with the performance. I think it was too close to the opening to the hallway in my rectangular room. Moved it to the far left corner, furthest away from the 8 foot wide opening, and what a difference it made. Room shaking, thunderous, bass, that rivals the output I got from the Conquest.

Thanks to Tom for the recommendation. I think I would have been wanting for more if I'd have gone with the XS15, not that it wouldn't produce, but I prefer my movies to shake the room when things blow up, and the XS30SE makes it happen (i run about +2-3 db on the sub, after calibration with DSpeaker Anti-Mode and Audysee XT32.

I'll post pics when I get a chance. Glad I ran into this thread on here before I picked a sub. Great product, great service, and a smaller size than i thought. I'll have to pop in Kung Fu Panda (Skidoosh scene) to see how low it goes, but my impressions thus far are solid output down to 10hz.
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post #14010 of 14010 Old Today, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
Oh. How about the hallboy 2 scene. Or the huge dragon crash from httyd
Got them (and my 4-yo girl loves the HTTYD scene). So there is strong 10 Hz content in both? I'd have to compare with the upstairs setup but it's a bit unfair. The ported dual subs tuned to 16 Hz give off lots of rumbles and other very tactile stuff and of course about nothing at 10 Hz. It would be hard to compare with the single sealed sub. I'll try though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Can you (or anyone here) recommend the best REW RTA settings for this procedure? I've always been kind of in the dark about the RTA settings.

It's been a while though and I didn't remember there having that many options From memory though... Not sure if you can leave that to Spectrum Mode, you may have to use one of the RTA Mode, and then I'd suggest the finest (1/48th octave). Smoothing is unnecessary, you want the raw data. FFT length -- the longer the better but at the same time it will take longer to accumulate. This is the number of audio samples before the spectrum is calculated. Averages is what I was talking about: as is the RTA is quite noisy, especially at high FFT lengths, so you may want to use lots of averages (e.g. 32) or an exponential averaging. By doing so though you'll introduce lag in the measurement. Be sure to let the RTA stabilize before making further adjustments.

The Window should be left to Rectangular IMHO. Any other window is equivalent to smoothing. They will remove the lobes at the foot of sharp tones but at the cost of less resolution.

If you allow more overlap, the spectrum will refresh more often, but it will reuse past samples. E.g. at 50% overlap, if you use 65k samples, it will first take 65k and compute the spectrum; then take 32k new samples and combine them with the last 32k samples from the first batch to update the spectrum, and so on. If you allow for more overlap the spectrum is then refreshed more often but the lag will between what's on the screen and what happens in real life will still be there. Not sure what's the update interval.

You should finally check the adjust RTA levels box if you want the RTA to look like standard measurement; if not it will looks severely sloped.

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Xs30 , Velodyne Sms 1 In Room Bass Correction Kit With Included Microphone , Denon Avr 3313ci Receiver , Denon Avr 4520ci Receiver , Power Sound Audio , Xv15 , Power Sound Audio Triax , Room Equilizer Wizard Rew , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver
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