Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 496 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #14851 of 17267 Old 11-11-2014, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
That's about a 6-7dB drop from 30hz to 20hz but in any case I'd try pulling down the broad rise is he's worried about the 20hz FR relative to the rest of the bandwidth. If that happens 20hz is down about 2.5dB if we consider 85dB nominal. Some of it has to do with personal preference of course.

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Yeah, when I pull down the middle I then have to boost the overall output to sate my bass cravings...again, killing my headroom.

You know my story Tom...I may be contacting you very soon.

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post #14852 of 17267 Old 11-11-2014, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Yeah, when I pull down the middle I then have to boost the overall output to sate my bass cravings...again, killing my headroom.

You know my story Tom...I may be contacting you very soon.

Alan, have you thought about trying to implement a house curve?


http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...ed-how-do.html
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post #14853 of 17267 Old 11-11-2014, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by jphorst View Post
So I was happy with my subs but after the last few posts I went and watched a scene from T4 and then switched phase on the one sub. Gained lots of bass so clearly measuring is my next step didn't even realize I was missing anything. The one problem with this is now my projector shakes like mad in bass heavy scenes. So now I need to do more research on how to stop that and spend more money....... Talk about give and take

Also need to dampen the door jams cause they breath a bit now Glad I decided to hold off on purchasing another sub (I still might) but going to work on optimizing the two I have first.
Sorry for my ignorance but how do you switch the phase on your sub? I have 1 XV15se. Thanks

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post #14854 of 17267 Old 11-11-2014, 12:58 PM
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Sorry for my ignorance but how do you switch the phase on your sub? I have 1 XV15se. Thanks

You would use the phase control knob on the back of your amp.
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post #14855 of 17267 Old 11-11-2014, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
You would use the phase control knob on the back of your amp.
So I would turn it from 0 to 80? Would I need to re run MCAAC?

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post #14856 of 17267 Old 11-11-2014, 01:12 PM
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After a few years of holding out, I finally got a real sub for my home theater in a two-year-old home addition: One XS15se.

What have I learned so far? I’d like a second sub!

Alas, it might not be possible given constraints imposed by my wife and our room. I might be able to stack a second XS15 right next to the first one, but it wouldn’t look good. Or I could eventually move the XS15 to my secondary HT and buy an XS30SE.

Do I need to? Probably not. After one week of listening, I am very pleased with the XS15se. Ran MultiEQ XT32 and did a subcrawl. Nothing seems out of sorts, though I will eventually run REW.

All the attributes one would expect are present to my ears. The sub sounds great with music – my main use. Tight, fast, articulate with jazz, classical, rock and so on. My fairly large room seems pressurized and the sub is hitting low notes I previously hadn’t heard.

What really struck me is how much the sub helps the rest of my system. Raising my main inwall and in-ceiling speakers to an 80 hz crossover seems to have taken a load off them. They sound clearer in the midrange and I get a greater sense of spaciousness.

I had long intended to buy a Rythmik E15HP until very recently. But I did want a down-firing sub and Jim Wilson’s review suggested PSA significantly improved some aspects of the XS15 over its predecessor. Seemed like the best value in sub-land available.

And then there’s Tom V. He offered his usual great customer service and that sealed the deal. I bought a PCi39 from SVS in the early days and had it custom tuned. So I knew I could rely on PSA.

I probably could have gone with the XS30, but it’s just so damn big and wouldn’t look quite as nice. Yet the XS15 looks much nicer in person than in the photos and I suspect the same is true of its larger cousin. There might be one in my future ...
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post #14857 of 17267 Old 11-11-2014, 01:49 PM
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One thing I still puzzle over is, under what conditions subwoofers should be run hot.

During setup, I set the XS15se to 2 pm and ran XT32. My Denon 4311CI, as expected, asks me to set the sub level to 75 dB, so I had to lower the PSA to around 1 pm to hit that mark.

After I ran XT32, Audyssey set my sub at -3.5 db. Listened for a while and it sounded pretty good.

I then did as so many sub owners here do and bumped it up 4 db to 0.5 db. I thought it sounded better. Or at least I detected more bass.

My question is, are the Audyssey settings supposed to reflect some natural or neutral setting – what bass is really supposed to sound like? Or are sub settings always a bit arbitrary?

I want to think that I am listening to music the ways it’s intended. But am I?

I’d be curious to know what Tom V. does. Do you use Audyssey or some other room correction system? And do you run your subs hot? How much and why?
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post #14858 of 17267 Old 11-11-2014, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by jeffbar View Post
One thing I still puzzle over is, under what conditions subwoofers should be run hot.

During setup, I set the XS15se to 2 pm and ran XT32. My Denon 4311CI, as expected, asks me to set the sub level to 75 dB, so I had to lower the PSA to around 1 pm to hit that mark.

After I ran XT32, Audyssey set my sub at -3.5 db. Listened for a while and it sounded pretty good.

I then did as so many sub owners here do and bumped it up 4 db to 0.5 db. I thought it sounded better. Or at least I detected more bass.

My question is, are the Audyssey settings supposed to reflect some natural or neutral setting – what bass is really supposed to sound like? Or are sub settings always a bit arbitrary?

I want to think that I am listening to music the ways it’s intended. But am I?

I’d be curious to know what Tom V. does. Do you use Audyssey or some other room correction system? And do you run your subs hot? How much and why?
Setting your sub gain at around 2:00, even if it is 80 - 85dB on Audyssey, allows you to initially set your amp gain which Tom and Jim have found works best for this particular amp at that position. Not every AVR will require a 2:00 gain setting. Some will have stronger subwoofer signals and require a lower setting. Audyssey will lower your sub back down to 75dB during the calibration by offsetting the AVR sub trim (-15dB max in Onkyos I believe). This gives you more room to boost the bass setting without going over 0dB and causing distortion through the AVR. Audyssey does set the bass a little low for "most" people, thus the majority of us run about 3-6dB hotter than the default Audyssey setting.

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post #14859 of 17267 Old 11-11-2014, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Alan, have you thought about trying to implement a house curve?


http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...ed-how-do.html


We have beat this horse to death...Alan has tried everything. Any boosting or implementing of a house curve reduces headroom and he hits the limiters. The problem is simply that Alan needs more subwoofage for his large room to satisfy his taste for bass. Asking 4 smallish sealed 15's to produce above reference output in a 4000^3 room for most of the bandwidth is a tall order....at least in the lower bass.
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post #14860 of 17267 Old 11-11-2014, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
We have beat this horse to death...Alan has tried everything. Any boosting or implementing of a house curve reduces headroom and he hits the limiters. The problem is simply that Alan needs more subwoofage for his large room to satisfy his taste for bass. Asking 4 smallish sealed 15's to produce above reference output in a 4000^3 room for most of the bandwidth is a tall order....at least in the lower bass.
Why not put this to rest and just pick-up quad XV15se's already? I'd take this route before shelling out over 2K more for dual XS30's. My room is over 5,000 cu ft completely open and I only have dual FV15HP's and they hit very hard. I can only imagine what 4 XV15se's would accomplish in a 4,000 cu ft room.
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Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's

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post #14861 of 17267 Old 11-11-2014, 03:31 PM
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Why not put this to rest and just pick-up quad XV15se's already? I'd take this route before shelling out over 2K more for dual XS30's. My room is over 5,000 cu ft completely open and I only have dual FV15HP's and they hit very hard. I can only imagine what 4 XV15se's would accomplish in a 4,000 cu ft room.
Because then I would have to sell my 4 XS15s (at a considerable loss). It's just easier to buy more of the same to get where I want to be.

Flawed thinking? Maybe. But my first flaw was buying quad sealed subs in the first place...now I must work with what I got.

I believe (now, you guys correct me if I'm wrong here) that 8x15" sealed subs will provide much more depth and slam than 4 ported subs ever could...correct or no?

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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post #14862 of 17267 Old 11-11-2014, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by tang7969 View Post
Sorry for my ignorance but how do you switch the phase on your sub? I have 1 XV15se. Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by tang7969 View Post
So I would turn it from 0 to 80? Would I need to re run MCAAC?
Unless you have more than one sub, you will gain nothing by adjusting the phase on the sub.

The sub distance setting in your AVR is for getting the sub in phase with your mains/center and the phase knob is for getting the sub in phase with other subs.

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post #14863 of 17267 Old 11-11-2014, 04:37 PM
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Thanks Alan, im at 2800 cubes so im think ill be in good shape. then again I might be better with 2 xs30's and avoid the hassle of back and forth shipping and continually chasin the rabbit down the hole. like to get to 10 hz, I listen at reference more often than not.


To those of you yet to use REW, its free so theres no excuse not to attempt it When you think its sounds good, get a miniDSP and itll sound even better
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post #14864 of 17267 Old 11-11-2014, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
Why not put this to rest and just pick-up quad XV15se's already? I'd take this route before shelling out over 2K more for dual XS30's. My room is over 5,000 cu ft completely open and I only have dual FV15HP's and they hit very hard. I can only imagine what 4 XV15se's would accomplish in a 4,000 cu ft room.
Because then I would have to sell my 4 XS15s (at a considerable loss). It's just easier to buy more of the same to get where I want to be.

Flawed thinking? Maybe. But my first flaw was buying quad sealed subs in the first place...now I must work with what I got.

I believe (now, you guys correct me if I'm wrong here) that 8x15" sealed subs will provide much more depth and slam than 4 ported subs ever could...correct or no?
Surely you could put PSA's fantastic customer service to the test and see if Tom would be gracious enough to let you trade in your current subs for XV15se's?
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post #14865 of 17267 Old 11-11-2014, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Because then I would have to sell my 4 XS15s (at a considerable loss). It's just easier to buy more of the same to get where I want to be.

Flawed thinking? Maybe. But my first flaw was buying quad sealed subs in the first place...now I must work with what I got.

I believe (now, you guys correct me if I'm wrong here) that 8x15" sealed subs will provide much more depth and slam than 4 ported subs ever could...correct or no?
I'll take one off your hands?
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post #14866 of 17267 Old 11-11-2014, 04:57 PM
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Well, Tom has been gracious enough to offer an upgrade path, but it still requires me to take a big hit financially. Nothing against Tom, I completely understand...he can't be giving subs away!

Tom did advise me to get the sealed versions when I first contacted him based on the fact that I was coming from 2 15" sealed Velodynes that I'd had for almost 20 years (although never properly set up) and had been satisfied with and that I told him I wasn't really that much of a bass head (boy, was I wrong!).

After getting the PSAs (and getting back on AVS after a few years of inactivity), I learned what proper bass should sound like...and learned how to measure my system and read a graph...and (most importantly) my bass needs changed dramatically once I experienced what good bass could sound like!

I think I would still prefer sealed subs over ported though for the ULF....I just need enough of them to get the output where I want it.

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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post #14867 of 17267 Old 11-11-2014, 05:00 PM
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I'll take one off your hands?
If I did decide to sell the XS15s, shipping would just not be cost effective at all.

This brings up another point - I kind of live in a small town, not many buyers for "high-end" subs in these parts, let alone 4 "high-end" subs.

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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post #14868 of 17267 Old 11-11-2014, 05:16 PM
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If I did decide to sell the XS15s, shipping would just not be cost effective at all.

This brings up another point - I kind of live in a small town, not many buyers for "high-end" subs in these parts, let alone 4 "high-end" subs.
I understand, thank you. Keep me in mind in case you do.
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post #14869 of 17267 Old 11-11-2014, 05:25 PM
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Well, going from a single XV15 to quad XS15s should provide a gigantic gain in output and extension and will mostly likely blow your mind! How large is your listening room?

My 4 XS15s (non-SE) are in a ~5000 cu. ft. space and they sound great. It took me a very long time to get them dialed in though since I have a very large, irregular room - not ideal for sealed subs. Here's my latest FR graph:




I'm not super happy with the drop-off at ~25hz. If I stack 'em all up front (currently 2 up front/2 in back) I get flat to about 8hz but I get really bad seat-to-seat variance. I also struggle with headroom - I like to run my subs 7-8db hot and run into the limiters around -5MV on some bass heavy content.

All that being said, I'm this close to pulling the trigger on 2 more PSA subs....dual XS30s.
You should try ordering a single XV30Fse. Here is why I say that. With the size of your room, I think you will be stunned at the additional output you get on movies. If you are as impressed as I think you will be, sell your four XS15's and add another XV30. Course, if you don't think you can get a good response with just two, then try one XV15se, just to compare low frequency output. If you are impressed, imagine what four will do.
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post #14870 of 17267 Old 11-11-2014, 05:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, Tom has been gracious enough to offer an upgrade path, but it still requires me to take a big hit financially. Nothing against Tom, I completely understand...he can't be giving subs away!

Tom did advise me to get the sealed versions when I first contacted him based on the fact that I was coming from 2 15" sealed Velodynes that I'd had for almost 20 years (although never properly set up) and had been satisfied with and that I told him I wasn't really that much of a bass head (boy, was I wrong!).

After getting the PSAs (and getting back on AVS after a few years of inactivity), I learned what proper bass should sound like...and learned how to measure my system and read a graph...and (most importantly) my bass needs changed dramatically once I experienced what good bass could sound like!

I think I would still prefer sealed subs over ported though for the ULF....I just need enough of them to get the output where I want it.
Maybe a pair of Triaxes would be enough?

ShaunH
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post #14871 of 17267 Old 11-11-2014, 08:45 PM
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You should try ordering a single XV30Fse. Here is why I say that. With the size of your room, I think you will be stunned at the additional output you get on movies. If you are as impressed as I think you will be, sell your four XS15's and add another XV30. Course, if you don't think you can get a good response with just two, then try one XV15se, just to compare low frequency output. If you are impressed, imagine what four will do.
Thanks for the suggestion Bear. I'd never really considered the XV30 before....what do the numbers look like compared to the XS30? Compared to the XV15? Basshead??

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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Last edited by Alan P; 11-11-2014 at 08:50 PM.
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post #14872 of 17267 Old 11-11-2014, 09:01 PM
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OK, you guys (and others here) have convinced me...vented is the way for me to go. I've sent an email to Tom proposing a trade for 4 XV15s, we'll see how it shakes out.

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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post #14873 of 17267 Old 11-11-2014, 09:32 PM
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OK, you guys (and others here) have convinced me...vented is the way for me to go. I've sent an email to Tom proposing a trade for 4 XV15s, we'll see how it shakes out.
I'll be very interested to see how that turns out! I currently run two xv15se's in a 6000 cu ft room and get all the bass I can stand haha. Four would really be something
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post #14874 of 17267 Old 11-11-2014, 11:05 PM
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Thanks for the suggestion Bear. I'd never really considered the XV30 before....what do the numbers look like compared to the XS30? Compared to the XV15? Basshead??
4 XV15se would have a slight advantage over 4 XS30se in the 16-30hz...maybe 3db around 20hz. If you added a pair of XS30se to your 4 XS15, you essentially would have 4 XS30's worth of output. You also would have a decent amount more upper bass headroom and potentially deeper extension then the XV15's. The biggest advantage for the XV will be again around 18-20hz. ..

If waf is no issue and you can stack the XS15's up front and add a pair of XS30's in the rear, that should net you another 6db of headroom. I think 4 XV15's would look better and be a more cost effective solution if you can work a trade with Tom.

That being said 4 XV30's sound like the Ultimate solution
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post #14875 of 17267 Old 11-12-2014, 12:18 AM
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That being said 4 XV30's sound like the Ultimate solution
This crowd is dangerous for the wallet but I like the idea
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post #14876 of 17267 Old 11-12-2014, 06:01 AM
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This crowd is dangerous for the wallet but I like the idea
They really are. You have to have some strong willpower around these parts.
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Receiver - Denon 4311CI
Speakers - Infinity P363's, PC351, P153's
Subs - Rythmik FV15HP's
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post #14877 of 17267 Old 11-12-2014, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
4 XV15se would have a slight advantage over 4 XS30se in the 16-30hz...maybe 3db around 20hz. If you added a pair of XS30se to your 4 XS15, you essentially would have 4 XS30's worth of output. You also would have a decent amount more upper bass headroom and potentially deeper extension then the XV15's. The biggest advantage for the XV will be again around 18-20hz. ..

If waf is no issue and you can stack the XS15's up front and add a pair of XS30's in the rear, that should net you another 6db of headroom. I think 4 XV15's would look better and be a more cost effective solution if you can work a trade with Tom.

That being said 4 XV30's sound like the Ultimate solution
Thanks for the numbers bh! You really know the numbers better than anyone around here.

Yeah...4 XV30s just ain't gonna happen (too much $$$)...although it would be awesome!

I haven't heard back from Tom yet, but I think the 4 XV15s is the way I'm gonna go. You say they will only have a "slight" advantage over adding 2 XS30s to my setup...are you taking into account that I have basically zero room gain with the sealed subs? Does this make a big difference??

To save a little cash, how do you think 3 XV15s would work out for me?

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post #14878 of 17267 Old 11-12-2014, 08:40 AM
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The other option is to build a smaller room, which may end up costing more.
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post #14879 of 17267 Old 11-12-2014, 08:55 AM
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Yeah, tossed that idea around a few months ago...just didn't seem to fly with the wife.

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post #14880 of 17267 Old 11-12-2014, 12:01 PM
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To those of you yet to use REW, its free so theres no excuse not to attempt it When you think its sounds good, get a miniDSP and itll sound even better
I'm sticking with my excuse "I don't have access to a laptop"


unless someone tells me I can use my desktop located near my HT
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