Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 499 - AVS Forum
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post #14941 of 15704 Old 11-14-2014, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by neutro View Post
A few months back in the ULF thread, @dominguez1 posted the results of a very, very interesting experiments. Basically he measured how much his couch was actually shaking using a smartphone app designed for earthquakes.

He noticed that despite being smaller and EQ'd flat as were his front subs, his back subs were making the couch shake more with the same input (15 Hz sine wave I believe). He proceeded to rule out many likely explanations. The output was the same as measured in dB SPL -- same FR from both sub, same level, measured on the couch. The couch was even moved at different positions in the room. The signal was a single tone under the modal regime of the room.

This lead us suspect that SPL measurements did not tell the whole story, and it brought us into very interesting topics of acoustics. One of the likely cause of the strange results was that the back subs were ported while the front subs were sealed. At low frequencies, almost anything in a room can be considered "near field", and thus conventional acoustics (which mainly deal with traveling plane waves) break down. When plane waves travel, one can infer the acoustic power, acoustic intensity, etc. from SPL measurements alone. But sound waves have two linked quantities: pressure and particle velocity. The relationship between the two can be completely different when near field where sound waves are not planar.

Long story short, it is suspected that close to a ported sub at a frequency near tune, the PVL (particle velocity level) is probably much higher than what is assumed from the SPL measurement, leading to a greater acoustic intensity -- which could make a couch shake more.

Another way to look at it is that near their tune, it is likely that ported subs are grossly out of calibration when considering sound intensity instead of only SPL.

The problem is that sound intensity sensors are special devices that are not readily available so nobody could confirm the suspicion we had. Perhaps PSA could buy a sound intensity probe and characterize ported vs sealed for us
This is very interesting neutro...some kind of "subwoofer voodoo" at work there, eh?
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post #14942 of 15704 Old 11-14-2014, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
This is very interesting neutro...some kind of "subwoofer voodoo" at work there, eh?
Indeed, although this is not to say that ported subs are inherently better than sealed ones. My own suspicion is that, as I said, if we calibrated our frequency responses using sound intensity measurements (instead using sound pressure only) we'd have to tone down ported subs around tuning.

But people often like having a house curve that raise the very low end by several dB's so perhaps this is just what some people like. For example, @notnyt recently converted his totally awesome 8x18" setup from sealed to ported, losing some low-end in the process. But it looks like whatever the reason, he prefers that configuration.

I for one cannot directly compare as my two setups are very different. I have dual ported subs on suspended hardwood floor that produces tons of output in the 16-20 Hz region and it's amazing. In my other setup I have a single XS15se on concrete floor, the location of which gives me a slight *dip* just below 20 Hz, so it sure doesn't shake things as much. But I am astounded how *deep* the thing can go in that room. It's very hard to compare and I can't really tell which one I prefer since it's been a while since I could watch a whole movie close to reference volume. But it's definitely a different experience.

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post #14943 of 15704 Old 11-14-2014, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I think I may start a stand-alone thread to see if I can get some more of the sub gurus to chime in.
OK guys, I started a thread for my sub upgrade questions so we don't have to clutter up this one any more.

Trading Up My PSA Subs - Go Sealed or Vented?
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post #14944 of 15704 Old 11-14-2014, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
OK guys, I started a thread for my sub upgrade questions so we don't have to clutter up this one any more.

Trading Up My PSA Subs - Go Sealed or Vented?
How was this clutter? We were discussing PSA subs in a PSA subwoofer thread, which is by far more on topic then the previous couple pages in this thread.
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post #14945 of 15704 Old 11-14-2014, 10:25 AM
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Very true.
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post #14946 of 15704 Old 11-14-2014, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Shouldn't make any difference (driver orientation) since at sub frequencies the waves radiate equally in all directions.

I used to be in a house with a crawlspace and got much more tactile feedback. Now I'm on a concrete slab. Takes a lot more power to get the same tactile feel on a slab IMO.
LOL, looks like I need more subs now as well. But then again that thought is never far from my thoughts anyway.
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post #14947 of 15704 Old 11-14-2014, 01:42 PM
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New amp for the XV15se has arrived. :-) Time to to the swap and see how it works out. Fingers crossed it does the trick and it works ok for the retest!

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post #14948 of 15704 Old 11-14-2014, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
Poor Tom 12 subs shipped back and forth? You have to be his favorite customer.
LOL or his least favorite!

Jeff could end up being solely responsible for them ending free shipping both ways
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post #14949 of 15704 Old 11-14-2014, 04:31 PM
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But the XV30s are just such BEHEMOTHS! I'd rather have the less-tall XS30s (or XV15s) for the aesthetics in my living room, and big gains across the entire bandwidth is tempting.

Basshead seems to be the lone supporter of sealed over vented, but he makes some really good points.

I really think I would enjoy having the extra extension, I know I miss it from when I had the 4 XS15s up front and was digging down to 8hz. But now I drop off around 25hz, with the vented subs that would be more like 17-18hz...what to do, what to do....
You could always lay them down flat if you think you will prefer the performance of the XV30's but don't want the tall profile.

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post #14950 of 15704 Old 11-14-2014, 05:02 PM
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Couldn't lay 'em down up front where it really matters. That being said, I think I could live with the taller profile just fine.
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post #14951 of 15704 Old 11-14-2014, 05:12 PM
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Got the new amp installed. Since I had the sub out of it's spot anyways, I tried it in the opposite side as the "bad" spot next to my left speaker I had when I first got it (so next to my right speaker now). I had the same bad impression. I could hardly tell the thing was even on to be honest! But put it back behind the TV again in that corner, and suddenly bass is filling at least half the room. My room acoustics really do make a night and day difference!

Re-ran YPAO with the sub gain in the exact same spot, and I'm getting very different results from last time. Before it would have all my speakers at "small" and the Crossover at 90, which I then move to 80hz, with the sub trim at -8.5 which I boosted to -4.0. Now it keeps setting all my speakers (Front, Center and surrounds) to "large", crossover at 60, and sub trim at -5.0. I ran it again, this time it set the crossover at 80, and left the center at "small" while putting the fronts and surrounds as "large". I switched them back, and bumped the sub up to -1.0.

A bit of testing, and it sounds similar, but I feel like it's missing a bit from how it was before. Maybe I should adjust the sub gain until I get YPAO to set it at -8 again and then bump it up? Would that make a difference? Sub is in the same spot now, so that can't be it.

I ran the same scene again, and the same volume but -1 db from before. It got through the WOTW pod sequence this time without issue. I won't have time to extensively test till later, but for now I'm calling the fix a success and I'm mess with the setup more later on. (I really need a mic or something damn it...)

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post #14952 of 15704 Old 11-14-2014, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Omni009 View Post

(I really need a mic or something damn it...)

Yes, yes you do
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post #14953 of 15704 Old 11-14-2014, 05:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Omni009 View Post
Got the new amp installed. Since I had the sub out of it's spot anyways, I tried it in the opposite side as the "bad" spot next to my left speaker I had when I first got it (so next to my right speaker now). I had the same bad impression. I could hardly tell the thing was even on to be honest! But put it back behind the TV again in that corner, and suddenly bass is filling at least half the room. My room acoustics really do make a night and day difference!

Re-ran YPAO with the sub gain in the exact same spot, and I'm getting very different results from last time. Before it would have all my speakers at "small" and the Crossover at 90, which I then move to 80hz, with the sub trim at -8.5 which I boosted to -4.0. Now it keeps setting all my speakers (Front, Center and surrounds) to "large", crossover at 60, and sub trim at -5.0. I ran it again, this time it set the crossover at 80, and left the center at "small" while putting the fronts and surrounds as "large". I switched them back, and bumped the sub up to -1.0.

A bit of testing, and it sounds similar, but I feel like it's missing a bit from how it was before. Maybe I should adjust the sub gain until I get YPAO to set it at -8 again and then bump it up? Would that make a difference? Sub is in the same spot now, so that can't be it.

I ran the same scene again, and the same volume but -1 db from before. It got through the WOTW pod sequence this time without issue. I won't have time to extensively test till later, but for now I'm calling the fix a success and I'm mess with the setup more later on. (I really need a mic or something damn it...)
You need all your speakers set to small... or else the bass may not be redirected properly
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post #14954 of 15704 Old 11-14-2014, 05:29 PM
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I had some large boxes delivered today. Yes, that is a pair of new T-18's! They are definitely big and heavy, but with a dolly and the help of a buddy, managed to move them into my theater room.

Subs looked great with no cosmetic issues, so hooked them up and... 60 Hz hum! I called Tom and we talked briefly about some suggestions, and after we talked I found I had a couple RCA ground loop isolators on hand and put those on each of the LFE connections and the hum was gone. System and subs are now nice and quiet.

I did a quick Audyssey setup and threw a bit of material at them. My previous theater subs were Epik Empires which honestly were good performers. However, in just the couple hours I have been running them (mostly music right now) I can for once say that the recordings are being as accurately reproduced as I am probably ever going to hear. Primarily, bass lines, drops, hits, dives, etc. are not falling off incorrectly. These subs nail the recorded frequency range without issue. It is simply beautiful.

Later this weekend I'm sure I'll get some movie time on them. Although I am not a high volume poster, I will try to post some updates.
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post #14955 of 15704 Old 11-14-2014, 05:29 PM
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I'm calling the fix a success
Very nice. I'm glad to see that your sub is up and running again.

Once again, great customer service PSA. Makes me so happy I own PSA subs, I know I'm well protected in case something goes wrong.
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post #14956 of 15704 Old 11-14-2014, 05:38 PM
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You need all your speakers set to small... or else the bass may not be redirected properly
I changed them all back to small before I played my test material.
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post #14957 of 15704 Old 11-14-2014, 05:49 PM
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More measuring, less guessing = better performance.
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post #14958 of 15704 Old 11-14-2014, 06:42 PM
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More measuring, less guessing = better performance.
True. Anyone in the Ca East Bay area want to come by with some gear and help me out?

I think the next purchase is solidified as a Minidsp & mic combo.

Is there any real way to set subwoofer phase by ear, or does it absolutely need a mic? I'm inspired to get the phase right after reading that other guy's results. I like more "chest slam".

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post #14959 of 15704 Old 11-14-2014, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by perfectevolution View Post
I had some large boxes delivered today. Yes, that is a pair of new T-18's! They are definitely big and heavy, but with a dolly and the help of a buddy, managed to move them into my theater room.



Subs looked great with no cosmetic issues, so hooked them up and... 60 Hz hum! I called Tom and we talked briefly about some suggestions, and after we talked I found I had a couple RCA ground loop isolators on hand and put those on each of the LFE connections and the hum was gone. System and subs are now nice and quiet.



I did a quick Audyssey setup and threw a bit of material at them. My previous theater subs were Epik Empires which honestly were good performers. However, in just the couple hours I have been running them (mostly music right now) I can for once say that the recordings are being as accurately reproduced as I am probably ever going to hear. Primarily, bass lines, drops, hits, dives, etc. are not falling off incorrectly. These subs nail the recorded frequency range without issue. It is simply beautiful.



Later this weekend I'm sure I'll get some movie time on them. Although I am not a high volume poster, I will try to post some updates.

Can you take a few pics with the grills off to show off the driver?
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post #14960 of 15704 Old 11-14-2014, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Omni009 View Post
Is there any real way to set subwoofer phase by ear, or does it absolutely need a mic? I'm inspired to get the phase right after reading that other guy's results. I like more "chest slam".
You can try, if there is a significant enough difference you may be able to pick up with just your ears but a Radio Shack SPL meter works pretty good (that's what I used). I got mine for something like $35. That will allow you to see and hear the change in dB as you slowly adjust the phase (or better yet have someone help you adjust the phase while you watch the meter).
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post #14961 of 15704 Old 11-14-2014, 08:43 PM
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Is there any real way to set subwoofer phase by ear, or does it absolutely need a mic?
Do you have a smart phone? If you do, download an SPL app and then adjust the phase on 1 sub only until you get the highest SPL at the MLP. That's all there is to it.

I'm not sure, but do you have only one sub? If so, then it becomes a bit more complicated....the phase adjustment on the sub will do nothing for you, it's the sub distance setting in the AVR you have to worry about. To adjust that properly, you're going to need a mic + REW.
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post #14962 of 15704 Old 11-14-2014, 09:04 PM
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Poor Tom 12 subs shipped back and forth? You have to be his favorite customer.
Yeah I like to think so as I have bought five of those subs and now a full array of loudspeakers.
Cheers Jeff
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post #14963 of 15704 Old 11-14-2014, 09:18 PM
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Alan, keep your sub considerations here where they belong, I have no problem with you or anyone sending subs in for trade up. I get a ton of chest slam from my XS30SEs on a concrete slab carpeted. I don't know if this makes a difference but I made custom feet that are 2" round and 2" high solid oak that keep the sub off the floor, I really don't think it matters but four XS30SEs you'll get chest and back slam Stay here my friend as I'm curious as what you decide to do and don't want to have to go to another thread.
Cheers Jeff.

PS: expect some REW questions soon, you too Bass and bear and anyone else that is willing to help.

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post #14964 of 15704 Old 11-14-2014, 09:46 PM
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Can you take a few pics with the grills off to show off the driver?
Here's a quick pic.

Just watched How to Train Your Dragon 2. I hadn't seen it before so I can't really compare it to my previous set up, but it shook the room at all the right times.

I'll try to watch some material I am familiar with soon, so I can comment on improvements.
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post #14965 of 15704 Old 11-14-2014, 11:23 PM
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Thanks Jeffery!

For those of you not following my other thread, I've upped the budget.

The choice is now:

4 XV30 (2 up front, 2 in back)
2 T-18 (in rear corners, only place I can fit 'em)


Opinions??
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post #14966 of 15704 Old 11-15-2014, 12:07 AM
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Alright, now I'm kind of back at the beginning. I download some subwoofer test tones...no more youtube ones for me. Sine waves, from 16hz, 18hz, 20hz etc at -3 db. Put them on a USB drive and tried them out. I know you aren't supposed to HEAR anything around 20hz or so, but I basically get nothing at all. And I really get nothing at 16 and 18hz. Only way I get anything at 20 hz is to crank the receiver up to almost 0.0, and them I start to get a rumbling in the room, which is overshadowed by the noises that the sub is making. (No air coming from the port either if that makes a difference)

I know you're going to say that 20hz is felt rather than heard but...I can't imagine that what I hear is what this is supposed to be like. Output in the higher bass seems fine. But for all the talk of "chest slams" and such, and I can say that only one time in my testing (before the amp died) did I get anything like a chest slam, during a scene from Hellboy 2.

Either the test tone themselves don't really work, or I'm just not understanding what "16hz room extension" or "18hz tuned" really is, or there really is something off about this sub...

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post #14967 of 15704 Old 11-15-2014, 05:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omni009 View Post
Alright, now I'm kind of back at the beginning. I download some subwoofer test tones...no more youtube ones for me. Sine waves, from 16hz, 18hz, 20hz etc at -3 db. Put them on a USB drive and tried them out. I know you aren't supposed to HEAR anything around 20hz or so, but I basically get nothing at all. And I really get nothing at 16 and 18hz. Only way I get anything at 20 hz is to crank the receiver up to almost 0.0, and them I start to get a rumbling in the room, which is overshadowed by the noises that the sub is making. (No air coming from the port either if that makes a difference)

I know you're going to say that 20hz is felt rather than heard but...I can't imagine that what I hear is what this is supposed to be like. Output in the higher bass seems fine. But for all the talk of "chest slams" and such, and I can say that only one time in my testing (before the amp died) did I get anything like a chest slam, during a scene from Hellboy 2.

Either the test tone themselves don't really work, or I'm just not understanding what "16hz room extension" or "18hz tuned" really is, or there really is something off about this sub...

Could be the tones, download REW and use those tones. Only way youll figure out what is REALLY going is with a mic, a mini DSP with it will allow full control of setting the sub to your room making it the best it can be without addl subs or room treatments. With REW and the mini you target specific bandwidths and the interface pretty well together, bite the bullet
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post #14968 of 15704 Old 11-15-2014, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Omni009 View Post
Alright, now I'm kind of back at the beginning. I download some subwoofer test tones...no more youtube ones for me. Sine waves, from 16hz, 18hz, 20hz etc at -3 db. Put them on a USB drive and tried them out. I know you aren't supposed to HEAR anything around 20hz or so, but I basically get nothing at all. And I really get nothing at 16 and 18hz. Only way I get anything at 20 hz is to crank the receiver up to almost 0.0, and them I start to get a rumbling in the room, which is overshadowed by the noises that the sub is making. (No air coming from the port either if that makes a difference)

I know you're going to say that 20hz is felt rather than heard but...I can't imagine that what I hear is what this is supposed to be like. Output in the higher bass seems fine. But for all the talk of "chest slams" and such, and I can say that only one time in my testing (before the amp died) did I get anything like a chest slam, during a scene from Hellboy 2.

Either the test tone themselves don't really work, or I'm just not understanding what "16hz room extension" or "18hz tuned" really is, or there really is something off about this sub...
Be careful. Playing test tones that loud is a good way to burn up the voice coils on the drivers.
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post #14969 of 15704 Old 11-15-2014, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post
Be careful. Playing test tones that loud is a good way to burn up the voice coils on the drivers.
I'll keep that in mind. But even before I replaced this amp with the new one the sub did this. It's sounded like this with every test tone I've found from every source since day 1. This is part of the reason why I wondered when I first got it if it was reaching it's extension or not.

For the 20 hz tone just to be sure I downloaded them from 2 different sources. I've read people who have PB12 say that theirs plays a 20 hz test tone just fine. Surely an XV15se should too right?

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post #14970 of 15704 Old 11-15-2014, 09:47 AM
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Here's a quick pic.

Just watched How to Train Your Dragon 2. I hadn't seen it before so I can't really compare it to my previous set up, but it shook the room at all the right times.

I'll try to watch some material I am familiar with soon, so I can comment on improvements.
The driver needs the rubber trim ring that hides the screws like the power x line driver.
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