Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 502 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #15031 of 35884 Old 11-19-2014, 03:05 PM
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Just ordered a UMIK-1 from PSA. Not the most exciting purchase I could make on their website, but hopefully it'll be just the first transaction I make
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post #15032 of 35884 Old 11-19-2014, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cesar123 View Post
Just ordered a UMIK-1 from PSA. Not the most exciting purchase I could make on their website, but hopefully it'll be just the first transaction I make
Just a heads-up. Should ship tomorrow with a fedex arrival on the 26th.

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post #15033 of 35884 Old 11-19-2014, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Just a heads-up. Should ship tomorrow with a fedex arrival on the 26th.

Tom V.
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Awesome. Thank you!
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post #15034 of 35884 Old 11-19-2014, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Yep. Just got done chatting with Tom and ordering the UMIK so it should ship out tomorrow and be here Saturday or Monday at the latest.

Wouldn't I just point the mic straight up like the Audyssey mic or is there a better way?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
Yes that is the preferred orientation for the measurements
If the 90 degree calibration file is used.
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post #15035 of 35884 Old 11-19-2014, 04:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
If the 90 degree calibration file is used.
Not really

He mic pointing to the ceiling is the most accurate when measuring the room response. If your measuring within 1' to the cone you would use the 0 degree and point the mic at the driver

But for our purposes te mic should be pointed to the ceiling
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post #15036 of 35884 Old 11-19-2014, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
Not really

He mic pointing to the ceiling is the most accurate when measuring the room response. If your measuring within 1' to the cone you would use the 0 degree and point the mic at the driver

But for our purposes te mic should be pointed to the ceiling
If you're not using a Cross Spectrum mic it hasn't been calibrate correctly to be directly pointed at the sub or speaker, something to keep in mind.


I personally point the mic towards the wall 90 degrees from the speaker or sub instead of towards the ceiling, my thinking is that your ears are pointing toward the side walls 90 degrees from the speaker or subs so why not have the mic hear it the way your ears do.
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post #15037 of 35884 Old 11-19-2014, 07:18 PM
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Okay, so I should either point the mic at the ceiling or the wall… Got it. Thanks for your help guys, I appreciate it.

That's one question down and 99 to go.
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post #15038 of 35884 Old 11-19-2014, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
If you're not using a Cross Spectrum mic it hasn't been calibrate correctly to be directly pointed at the sub or speaker, something to keep in mind.


I personally point the mic towards the wall 90 degrees from the speaker or sub instead of towards the ceiling, my thinking is that your ears are pointing toward the side walls 90 degrees from the speaker or subs so why not have the mic hear it the way your ears do.
I like the theory behind this, but you have two ears 180 degrees apart. Unless you are taking two measurements and averaging them using some advanced algorithm (?) I don't see how pointing it at the wall would help. Even so, pointing at the ceiling seems to represent the closest of approximations regardless of the math you can apply using your method....

Maybe I missing something? I almost always am missing something haha
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post #15039 of 35884 Old 11-19-2014, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
I like the theory behind this, but you have two ears 180 degrees apart. Unless you are taking two measurements and averaging them using some advanced algorithm (?) I don't see how pointing it at the wall would help. Even so, pointing at the ceiling seems to represent the closest of approximations regardless of the math you can apply using your method....

Maybe I missing something? I almost always am missing something haha

I didn't realize you can hear out of the top of your head Randy, that's a pretty good party trick!....lol
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post #15040 of 35884 Old 11-19-2014, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
I didn't realize you can hear out of the top of your head Randy, that's a pretty good party trick!....lol
Wait a minute..... You mean you can't do that?

In reality I just feel like that point most accurately captures the geometry of any room with the least amount of error due to approximations.... It would be far more accurate than any mathematical model of a room environment right? Just trying to understand this physically.
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post #15041 of 35884 Old 11-19-2014, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
Wait a minute..... You mean you can't do that?

In reality I just feel like that point most accurately captures the geometry of any room with the least amount of error due to approximations.... It would be far more accurate than any mathematical model of a room environment right? Just trying to understand this physically.
I'm sure it doesn't matter that much as long as you keep the mic 90 degrees to what you're measuring. Unless you have a CS mic and load the 45 degree or 0 degree calibration files.
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post #15042 of 35884 Old 11-19-2014, 09:39 PM
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Hop, you really need to read Jerry Austins REW setup guide, it is a valuable wealth of information
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/showth...6#post29188946

You can download the guide from his sig and then from post 275.
He's used both UMIK-1s from miniDSP and CSL and said that all measurements no matter what mic is used should be with the mic pointing up at the ceiling. The differences between the two mics was pretty insignificant except in the very higher FR which tha CSL mic is better suited. But with our primary measurements this should be a mute point. Herb wanted $55 to calibrate my miniDSP mic and I felt I would just use it as is and Jerry said that would be fine. REW has a new version,
REW V5.01 Beta23 and Jerry's guide has been upgraded to REW 101 v3.9 All of that should be in the link I provided, I hope.
There's also a two week wait for the CSL mic.
Also Hop I am almost positive the miniDSP UMIK-1 cal file is 0 degrees and not 90.
Cheers Jeff
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post #15043 of 35884 Old 11-19-2014, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Hop, you really need to read Jerry Austins REW setup guide, it is a valuable wealth of information
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/showth...6#post29188946

You can download the guide from his sig and then from post 275.
He's used both UMIK-1s from miniDSP and CSL and said that all measurements no matter what mic is used should be with the mic pointing up at the ceiling. The differences between the two mics was pretty insignificant except in the very higher FR which tha CSL mic is better suited. But with our primary measurements this should be a mute point. Herb wanted $55 to calibrate my miniDSP mic and I felt I would just use it as is and Jerry said that would be fine. REW has a new version,
REW V5.01 Beta23 and Jerry's guide has been upgraded to REW 101 v3.9 All of that should be in the link I provided, I hope.
There's also a two week wait for the CSL mic.
Also Hop I am almost positive the miniDSP UMIK-1 cal file is 0 degrees and not 90.
Cheers Jeff


Jeff,


you're right, I don't know why I thought it was 90 degrees. The miniDSP mic is calibrated to 0 degrees, so point it directly at what you're trying to measure.


http://www.minidsp.com/forum/umik-qu...n-to-90-degree
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post #15044 of 35884 Old 11-20-2014, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Hop, you really need to read Jerry Austins REW setup guide, it is a valuable wealth of information
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/showth...6#post29188946

You can download the guide from his sig and then from post 275.
He's used both UMIK-1s from miniDSP and CSL and said that all measurements no matter what mic is used should be with the mic pointing up at the ceiling. The differences between the two mics was pretty insignificant except in the very higher FR which tha CSL mic is better suited. But with our primary measurements this should be a mute point. Herb wanted $55 to calibrate my miniDSP mic and I felt I would just use it as is and Jerry said that would be fine. REW has a new version,
REW V5.01 Beta23 and Jerry's guide has been upgraded to REW 101 v3.9 All of that should be in the link I provided, I hope.
There's also a two week wait for the CSL mic.
Also Hop I am almost positive the miniDSP UMIK-1 cal file is 0 degrees and not 90.
Cheers Jeff
Wait a minute...you actually need to use REW before you can give advice on how to use it.

Btw, sounds like you have being doing a lot of research...good for you my friend! Now time to put it to use.
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post #15045 of 35884 Old 11-20-2014, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Wait a minute...you actually need to use REW before you can give advice on how to use it.

Btw, sounds like you have being doing a lot of research...good for you my friend! Now time to put it to use.
Yeah Jeff, you sure seem to know a good bit about REW for someone who's NEVER POSTED A GRAPH!
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post #15046 of 35884 Old 11-20-2014, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Here is the cal file for the RS meter
You can see that the SPL values generated directly by the RS meter is waaaaay off at low frequencies so playing, say, 20 Hz tones, you shouldn't take direct readings at face value. The same goes when playing pink noise with the sub -- the RS meter will be off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omni009 View Post
Cool, thanks!. So if I play test tones from REW at those frequencies, I apply those correction factors, right?
Now I don't even remember if those are *correction factors*, i.e. what you should apply to the reading, or if they are the mic's *sensitivity*, i.e. how far the mic deviates from the correct reading. Can someone tell us? I would have thought that the sensitivity of the RS' mic at low frequencies would just be lower and lower and thus the values (e.g -10) would be how far the mic is (so you'd have to correct the reading by +10 dB) but I'm not sure about this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
Yes that is the preferred orientation for the measurements
I agree -- as other said, the stock UMIK-1 calibration file (down to 10 Hz, not 15) is with the mic directly pointing the object being measured. For full-range response it would then be preferred to aim at the speaker emitting the sound. But bass below 80 Hz being mostly omnidirectional and room modes being the dominant features, aiming towards the ceiling is a good idea. The UMIK is still a mic that is fairly omnidirectional, so looking up at the MLP catches waves coming from every direction. Close-mic'ing a speaker definitely should be done with the mic pointed at the driver though.

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post #15047 of 35884 Old 11-20-2014, 08:09 AM
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Just an update for anyone who was following my subwoofer drama a few pages back, I re-ran audio calibration with the readjusted setting on the gain dial set to the 2 o'clock position (or in my case, half way between 1 and 2 o'clock as the 2 position got me up to around 90db and I thought that was a tad hot). After carefully running Audyssey and checking levels with an SPL meter, I bumped up the bass 3db in the AVR and movies are much better, with greatly improved presence and impact. I'm getting more of that slam factor now, which is very enjoyable. However, for music, things are better, but still pretty lean. I'm not sure why, but hey, getting 50% of what I want is better than bass response sucking all around, right? Thanks to all who chimed in and did their best to help. Much appreciated.
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post #15048 of 35884 Old 11-20-2014, 08:19 AM
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Did you try bumping up the sub trim another +3db for music? I usually run a bit hotter(2-3db) for music over movies because I have a gradual rise from 80hz to 25-30hz. So naturally movies sound bass heavy with the same sub trim setting compared to music. Like I said before, it is a response issue causing this not the sub itself. You either have a peak or null in the response.

Glad to hear your are making progress btw. If only subs were plug and play with little setup time needed....
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Last edited by basshead81; 11-20-2014 at 08:24 AM.
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post #15049 of 35884 Old 11-20-2014, 08:19 AM
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Glad you got movies sounding better Corpse. Have you tried PLIIx Music for music? I think the bass is much more "present" in that surround mode.
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post #15050 of 35884 Old 11-20-2014, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Hop, you really need to read Jerry Austins REW setup guide, it is a valuable wealth of information
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/showth...6#post29188946

You can download the guide from his sig and then from post 275.
He's used both UMIK-1s from miniDSP and CSL and said that all measurements no matter what mic is used should be with the mic pointing up at the ceiling. The differences between the two mics was pretty insignificant except in the very higher FR which tha CSL mic is better suited. But with our primary measurements this should be a mute point. Herb wanted $55 to calibrate my miniDSP mic and I felt I would just use it as is and Jerry said that would be fine. REW has a new version,
REW V5.01 Beta23 and Jerry's guide has been upgraded to REW 101 v3.9 All of that should be in the link I provided, I hope.
There's also a two week wait for the CSL mic.
Also Hop I am almost positive the miniDSP UMIK-1 cal file is 0 degrees and not 90.
Cheers Jeff
Thanks Jeff, I will definitely be checking this out later today and reading through everything.

Okay, there has been so much discussion on where to point the mic and calibration of 0 degrees or 90 degrees that I just want to follow up and verify that I still have this right. The over all agreed upon methodology for measuring bass in a room using a UMIK is to set the mic at the MLP and point the mic at the ceiling. Is that pretty much accurate?
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post #15051 of 35884 Old 11-20-2014, 10:13 AM
 
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correct.

also move the mic around the immediate seating area and compare the responses. this will help know that if they dont differ greatly you can just use the MLP readings to adjust any DSP you may use
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post #15052 of 35884 Old 11-20-2014, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Thanks Jeff, I will definitely be checking this out later today and reading through everything.

Okay, there has been so much discussion on where to point the mic and calibration of 0 degrees or 90 degrees that I just want to follow up and verify that I still have this right. The over all agreed upon methodology for measuring bass in a room using a UMIK is to set the mic at the MLP and point the mic at the ceiling. Is that pretty much accurate?
Yes, for all the reasons @neutro so eloquently posted at the end of his last response
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post #15053 of 35884 Old 11-20-2014, 11:17 AM
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Got it...Very good. Thanks to all.
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post #15054 of 35884 Old 11-20-2014, 01:09 PM
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I missed my delievery today becuase i am at work, booooooo>>>>>>> Whats a good starting point when setting up a XV15se?
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post #15055 of 35884 Old 11-20-2014, 01:12 PM
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I missed my delievery today becuase i am at work, booooooo>>>>>>> Whats a good starting point when setting up a XV15se?

You should be able to sign in(online) at fedex and pick up the sub at the local fedex terminal on your way home if you prefer.

Tom V.
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post #15056 of 35884 Old 11-20-2014, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Thanks Jeff, I will definitely be checking this out later today and reading through everything.

Okay, there has been so much discussion on where to point the mic and calibration of 0 degrees or 90 degrees that I just want to follow up and verify that I still have this right. The over all agreed upon methodology for measuring bass in a room using a UMIK is to set the mic at the MLP and point the mic at the ceiling. Is that pretty much accurate?
Sorry Hop, that was me causing the confusion. If you go with a UMIK-1 mic from PSA which they get from miniDSP the mic was calibrated to be used in a zero degree application. Meaning pointing directly at what you're measuring, it doesn't mean that you can't have it pointed 90 degrees.


It honestly might not make that big of a difference but if you're trying to measure as accurately as possibly you'd want to do it correctly.


I have a Cross Spectrum mic and if I'm using 90 degrees for taking measurements I load the calibration file for 90 degrees, if I was going to take a measurement at 0 degrees I would load the 0 degree calibration file that came with my mic.
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post #15057 of 35884 Old 11-20-2014, 01:57 PM
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I was thinking about picking it up but I'm not sure how late they are there. They tried to deliver it a 10am and that's great. I usally have to wait till late afternoon before they decide to deliver.
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post #15058 of 35884 Old 11-20-2014, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Brker19 View Post
I missed my delievery today becuase i am at work, booooooo>>>>>>> Whats a good starting point when setting up a XV15se?
For me it was to run any room correction with your AVR and see how that tuns out. Try a few different locations out. And don't throw your back out lifting the thing!

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post #15059 of 35884 Old 11-20-2014, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brker19 View Post
I missed my delievery today becuase i am at work, booooooo>>>>>>> Whats a good starting point when setting up a XV15se?
Personally I would start with the sub crawl to get a good idea of the best placement locations for the new sub. Then I would place the sub in the location that offered the best sound while still being practical. From there I would bump the sub trim to 2 O'clock and run my room calibration. That should be a solid start.
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post #15060 of 35884 Old 11-20-2014, 02:09 PM
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Got a morning to myself, so more sub time. Tried out the LOTR : FOTR's Mines of Moria & Balrog scene. Lots of low bass there. At -12.0 or so, it was not too bad. At -7.0 on the AVR, it felt like the Balrog was screaming right at me.

Followed that up with X-Men : First Class. Not as good as I was expecting given the praise for the bass in this movie. The overall sound quality is really solid though.

Lastly I once again enjoyed one of my favs, TRON Legacy. Really cranked that sucker. That end battle in the light fighters is sick. The sub was making the machine gun sounds in spots. Cranked up the ending destruction part, and it was pretty good too, although I think it goes ever lower than this thing is capable of going. Still fun. Not sub related but...my surrounds...when I had the scene where he is raised up into the Grid ("Disk wars! Disk wars!"), my surrounds sounded like they were pushed past their limits. Distorting, even at around -15 or so...I though my crossover settings would protect them, but it seemed like they were trying to push out bass that they weren't capable of. Every other scene they did fine though...hmmm.

Anyways, a fun morning

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