Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 505 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #15121 of 16871 Old 11-21-2014, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Omni009 View Post
The 80hz recommendation is all over the place, including many places here on AVS, and even specifically when asking about the BS22's. I read up before that these things actually have a good flat response down to around 65 hz...

http://www.stereophile.com/content/p...r-measurements

Anyways, I'll try 90hz now. This one scene is the only spot I can recall that my surrounds did this before though, so I was curious about it. I found a few other people who talk about TRON Legacy having clipping issues, and at least one other who reported clipping with their surrounds in the exact same place in the film as I did, so maybe it's just the soundtrack.

Sorry for the thread derail...back to bass...ics. My bargain bin copy of "9" is just waiting for me to give it a spin!
A good flat response down to 65hz at what volume levels? Sure they can probably play down to 65hz up to 85db, but asking them to do any heavy lifting at volumes above 90db is no bueno with a 80hz cross. The point I am trying to makes is a 4" driver does not have enough displacement to keep up with your sub crossed that low...hence why you heard distortion. Again I personally would never run a speaker with drivers smaller then 6.5" for louder listening levels and a 80hz cross.
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post #15122 of 16871 Old 11-21-2014, 08:54 AM
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Agree with basshead here....take some load off those poor little speakers and cross them at 100hz. 90hz is pushing it, IMO.
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post #15123 of 16871 Old 11-21-2014, 11:12 AM
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Ok, 100hz it is. I'll try it out. I read a bit more, and I think some of the blame does go to the soundtrack in this one too...

From Data-Bass..."The problem with this track is the clipping in the LCR and Surround channels (the LFE channel is suprisingly unaffected). An article reported that the director Joseph Kosinski went back and 'modified' the soundtrack for the BluRay release. Too bad. At first, I thought the clipping almost intentional, given Daft Punk's music style, but it is not always the case."

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post #15124 of 16871 Old 11-21-2014, 03:04 PM
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Gonna be awhile before I get my dual T-18s, but I'm wondering if anyone has any tips on how to best un-box these beasts solo??

After I get 'em out of the boxes and onto some carpet sliders, I think moving them into position won't be a problem....but how to (safely) get them un-boxed, I'm unsure?? Maybe flip the box upside down, open the bottom then flip it right side up and pull the box off...?

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: PSA MT-110sr, SUR: PSA MT-110sr x 2, SUB: PSA T-18 x 2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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post #15125 of 16871 Old 11-21-2014, 03:11 PM
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You've hit it right in the head Alan. That's how you do it

Panasonic 65VT30 | Panasonic AE8000 HD PJ | Denon x4100 ATMOS 5.2.4| Emotiva XPR-5 | PSA MT110 x 3 FL/C/FR | PSA MT110sur surrounds | DUAL PSA XS30 | OPPO 103 | minidsp | Buttkicker LFE

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post #15126 of 16871 Old 11-21-2014, 03:20 PM
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Sweet. Fingers crossed for no hernia this time 'round.



Full disclosure: when I first got my XS15s I didn't have carpet sliders (DOH!)....about 3 months later I had hernia surgery.

Coincidence? I think not.
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post #15127 of 16871 Old 11-21-2014, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Sweet. Fingers crossed for no hernia this time 'round.



Full disclosure: when I first got my XS15s I didn't have carpet sliders (DOH!)....about 3 months later I had hernia surgery.

Coincidence? I think not.
Whoa... now that's a man who's dedicated to bass!

Sorry to hear you had hernia surgery Alan but I admire that you didn't let it scare you away from buying even bigger, heavier subs.

All the same, you may want to call a friend over to help you with the T18s when they arrive.
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post #15128 of 16871 Old 11-21-2014, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Gonna be awhile before I get my dual T-18s, but I'm wondering if anyone has any tips on how to best un-box these beasts solo??

After I get 'em out of the boxes and onto some carpet sliders, I think moving them into position won't be a problem....but how to (safely) get them un-boxed, I'm unsure?? Maybe flip the box upside down, open the bottom then flip it right side up and pull the box off...?
That's nuts!
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post #15129 of 16871 Old 11-21-2014, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
All the same, you may want to call a friend over to help you with the T18s when they arrive.
I'm a MAN! I don't need no stinkin' HELP!!



Well....maybe......
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post #15130 of 16871 Old 11-21-2014, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by jhughy2010 View Post
That's nuts!
Which part?

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post #15131 of 16871 Old 11-21-2014, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Sweet. Fingers crossed for no hernia this time 'round.

Full disclosure: when I first got my XS15s I didn't have carpet sliders (DOH!)....about 3 months later I had hernia surgery.

Coincidence? I think not.
I lifted my XV15 out of the box from the top...like a m̶o̶r̶o̶n̶ boss!

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post #15132 of 16871 Old 11-21-2014, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Which part?
You'll be drawing 8000 watts from your homes electrical outlets! LOL!

I could really use two of those with my 4300 cubic foot living room.

Living room theater set-up:  
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post #15133 of 16871 Old 11-21-2014, 04:03 PM
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Yeah, I'm a little worried about the wiring in my circa 1961 house....guess I'll find out in a couple weeks.

I got ~5000^3 ft and struggled with 4 XS15s for ~2 yrs....finally threw in the towel and moved up to some "real" subs.

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: PSA MT-110sr, SUR: PSA MT-110sr x 2, SUB: PSA T-18 x 2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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post #15134 of 16871 Old 11-21-2014, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Sweet. Fingers crossed for no hernia this time 'round.



Full disclosure: when I first got my XS15s I didn't have carpet sliders (DOH!)....about 3 months later I had hernia surgery.

Coincidence? I think not.
Sounds like you've got a few weeks here to hit the gym on preparation. It is bulking season afterall
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post #15135 of 16871 Old 11-21-2014, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Did you try bumping up the sub trim another +3db for music? I usually run a bit hotter(2-3db) for music over movies because I have a gradual rise from 80hz to 25-30hz. So naturally movies sound bass heavy with the same sub trim setting compared to music. Like I said before, it is a response issue causing this not the sub itself. You either have a peak or null in the response.

Glad to hear your are making progress btw. If only subs were plug and play with little setup time needed....
I have not tried bumping up the sub trim more for music. Honestly, I'm not sure how to do this separately in the Onkyo 818 so that the setting will only affect music playback and nothing else? Any suggestions? I really don't want to have to change the sub trim every time I switch between music and movies. The Onkyo is still somewhat new to me, as I came from a Pioneer Elite before it, so I'm still learning a bit with the Onkyo.

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Glad you got movies sounding better Corpse. Have you tried PLIIx Music for music? I think the bass is much more "present" in that surround mode.
I have and it's even more lean on the bass in PLIIx. However, I do get pretty solid bass in *all channel sterero* but I pretty much despise this setting because I hate the stereo image running through my surrounds at the same time. Just HATE it! It appears I'm in the minority here, but I just want my two towers and sub playing music.


To ask another question. As I was saying in my last post, I ended up setting the gain knob on the sub closer to 1 o'clock than 2 o'clock, as the 2 o'clock setting was hitting 90db, which I thought was a tad high, so I backed the gain knob back a bit, closer to 1o'clock. At this position, the sub was measuring at about 83-84db. I ran 8 position Audyssey and checked the AVR. Audyssey set the sub trim to -6.5db. I manually bumped it up to -3.5db and did some movie scene tests and things were better. My question is, does this sound about right to all of you? Or should I have left the gain dial set to 2o'clock on the sub no matter what? Though bass output for movies is much improved, I can't help but wonder, would it be even better if I had left the gain dial at 2, instead of back it off a bit? That said, audyssey setting the sub to -6.5db after calibration does seem to be in the ballpark of where I want audyssey to set things after calibration has run, at least from what I've read? Thoughts?

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post #15136 of 16871 Old 11-21-2014, 04:14 PM
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Hey guys, my sub sits close to a register. Should I close the register so dry air isn't pumping out next to/onto my sub? Sorry if this is a silly question, but it does bother me. No matter where I move it in the room, I'm going to be next to a register.

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post #15137 of 16871 Old 11-21-2014, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by morbidcorpse View Post
I have not tried bumping up the sub trim more for music. Honestly, I'm not sure how to do this separately in the Onkyo 818 so that the setting will only affect music playback and nothing else? Any suggestions? I really don't want to have to change the sub trim every time I switch between music and movies. The Onkyo is still somewhat new to me, as I came from a Pioneer Elite before it, so I'm still learning a bit with the Onkyo.
That's exactly what basshead was suggestion - changing the sub trim for music vs. movies. I don't like doing this either, although on my Denon I have a button that controls "Subwoofer Volume" and it's pretty easy to change on-the-fly...I still don't like doing it because i'm always I'm afraid I won't remember to change it back.


Quote:
I have and it's even more lean on the bass in PLIIx. However, I do get pretty solid bass in *all channel sterero* but I pretty much despise this setting because I hate the stereo image running through my surrounds at the same time. Just HATE it! It appears I'm in the minority here, but I just want my two towers and sub playing music.
You are very much NOT in the minority...using "All Ch Stereo" for any sort of critical music listening or movie watching is ridiculous. The only thing it's good for is when you're having a party and you want music all around the room.

I'm surprised that PLII isn't giving you more bass though. Everyone I've read that has tried it has gotten more bass than with "Stereo".


Quote:
To ask another question. As I was saying in my last post, I ended up setting the gain knob on the sub closer to 1 o'clock than 2 o'clock, as the 2 o'clock setting was hitting 90db, which I thought was a tad high, so I backed the gain knob back a bit, closer to 1o'clock. At this position, the sub was measuring at about 83-84db. I ran 8 position Audyssey and checked the AVR. Audyssey set the sub trim to -6.5db. I manually bumped it up to -3.5db and did some movie scene tests and things were better. My question is, does this sound about right to all of you? Or should I have left the gain dial set to 2o'clock on the sub no matter what? Though bass output for movies is much improved, I can't help but wonder, would it be even better if I had left the gain dial at 2, instead of back it off a bit? That said, audyssey setting the sub to -6.5db after calibration does seem to be in the ballpark of where I want audyssey to set things after calibration has run, at least from what I've read? Thoughts?
You are only running the sub 3db "hot" and saying that the bass still sounds "thin"...why don't you just keep bumping up the trim until it sounds good to you?? As long as you don't run out of headroom, you're fine.

Yes, you should try to set the sub gain to 2:00 and re-calibrate. As long as you're not "out of range" on the trim afterwards, you are golden. Ideally, you want the sub trim as low as you can get it after calibration so you have the maximum headroom to play with. Do you know the bottom limit for sub trim on your AVR? I think on the Onkyos it's -15, but I could be wrong.

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post #15138 of 16871 Old 11-21-2014, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morbidcorpse View Post
Hey guys, my sub sits close to a register. Should I close the register so dry air isn't pumping out next to/onto my sub? Sorry if this is a silly question, but it does bother me. No matter where I move it in the room, I'm going to be next to a register.
Yeah...you shouldn't have hot air blowing on your sub.

Also, how large is this register and how close is your sub to it? You may be losing bass into it if it's a big enough hole.

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post #15139 of 16871 Old 11-21-2014, 04:47 PM
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I'm a MAN! I don't need no stinkin' HELP!!



Well....maybe......
LOL, this made me laugh.
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post #15140 of 16871 Old 11-21-2014, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Gonna be awhile before I get my dual T-18s, but I'm wondering if anyone has any tips on how to best un-box these beasts solo??

After I get 'em out of the boxes and onto some carpet sliders, I think moving them into position won't be a problem....but how to (safely) get them un-boxed, I'm unsure?? Maybe flip the box upside down, open the bottom then flip it right side up and pull the box off...?
No no, this is all wrong. Just reach down into the box and lift them out. Use your left hand/arm for one, and your right hand/arm for the other. You can actually unbox them both at the same time this way.
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post #15141 of 16871 Old 11-21-2014, 04:56 PM
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No no, this is all wrong. Just reach down into the box and lift them out. Use your left hand/arm for one, and your right hand/arm for the other. You can actually unbox them both at the same time this way.
Well, I could do that but I don't want to show off now.

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post #15142 of 16871 Old 11-21-2014, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
You are only running the sub 3db "hot" and saying that the bass still sounds "thin"...why don't you just keep bumping up the trim until it sounds good to you?? As long as you don't run out of headroom, you're fine.

Yes, you should try to set the sub gain to 2:00 and re-calibrate. As long as you're not "out of range" on the trim afterwards, you are golden. Ideally, you want the sub trim as low as you can get it after calibration so you have the maximum headroom to play with. Do you know the bottom limit for sub trim on your AVR? I think on the Onkyos it's -15, but I could be wrong.
Yes, it's -15. I'm currently only running 3db *hot* as a starting point. It seemed pretty good for movies and I left it there because at only 3db hot, it's starting to sound a little localized at certain points in movies.

Quote:
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Yeah...you shouldn't have hot air blowing on your sub.

Also, how large is this register and how close is your sub to it? You may be losing bass into it if it's a big enough hole.
The register is in the floor, about 13 inches long and 3.5 inches wide, but I have it closed off. Not sure if closing the register makes a difference or not? I can move the sub out of the corner, closer to the mains if need be.

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post #15143 of 16871 Old 11-21-2014, 06:56 PM
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yes I am suggesting adjusting the sub trim back and fourth between music and movies. different sources are recorded at different levels. That is part of the reason why you have a sub trim adjustment. you are never going to get a EXACT setting for all types or source. Heck just changing from a cd to Pandora can require adjusting the bass levels...same difference for downloaded movies vs blu rays.
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
No no, this is all wrong. Just reach down into the box and lift them out. Use your left hand/arm for one, and your right hand/arm for the other. You can actually unbox them both at the same time this way.
You should also do some bicep curls with them as you carry them around the room (one in each hand) looking for the right location for them.
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post #15145 of 16871 Old 11-21-2014, 07:57 PM
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@morbidcorpse , do you have a home buttom on your 818 remote, if so hit it and you should get a couple of options, click on audio and you should see trim adjustment for sub and center channel, bump your sub trim up and then hit HOME button again and it's gone, you don't have to worry about setting the trim level back again for movies once you power down the 818 it reverts back to the original Audyssey trim set. Hope this helps. You can adjust these two trims on the fly. I use an old Onkyo 702 remote that has all speaker trim levels that you can set on the fly, I have the 809 with the HOME button, check to see if you have that button, it's in the middle of the remote below the circle cursor direction thing.
Cheers Jeff
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post #15146 of 16871 Old 11-21-2014, 08:01 PM
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@ Alan, with the original Triax box it had straps over the top of the box, cut those and just lift the lid of the box off and the sides will fall down exposing your beautiful beast, real easy, no lifting. I would imagine it's the same for the T-18, maybe not as the T-18 is close to 70 pounds lighter than the Triax 15s were.
Cheers Jeff
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post #15147 of 16871 Old 11-21-2014, 08:12 PM
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@ omni I have the BS22s, while they are a very good speaker even with a 4" driver, they have their limitations especially if you cross them lower than 80Hz, if you don't push them they will do fine but why would you want to, let the sub handle everything below 100 or more Hz. They are good speakers for the $ but you can only expect so much from a 4" driver in a 10 lb. box. I know Dennis Murphy thinks highly of them as he sells a modded version with a soft dome tweeter and XO tweaks, they're in his affordable speaker line.
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post #15148 of 16871 Old 11-21-2014, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by morbidcorpse View Post
Yes, it's -15. I'm currently only running 3db *hot* as a starting point. It seemed pretty good for movies and I left it there because at only 3db hot, it's starting to sound a little localized at certain points in movies.
You got your sub in the front corner right? Crossed at 80hz? You shouldn't be getting any localization at all no matter what the sub trim (well, within reason).

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The register is in the floor, about 13 inches long and 3.5 inches wide, but I have it closed off. Not sure if closing the register makes a difference or not? I can move the sub out of the corner, closer to the mains if need be.
Yes, closing the register will help with bass leakage (although, with that small of an opening, I wouldn't worry too much about that), but more importantly, you won't be cooking your sub.

Remind me...have you measured your response with REW? If not, I would suggest this be your next step.

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: PSA MT-110sr, SUR: PSA MT-110sr x 2, SUB: PSA T-18 x 2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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post #15149 of 16871 Old 11-21-2014, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Gonna be awhile before I get my dual T-18s, but I'm wondering if anyone has any tips on how to best un-box these beasts solo??

After I get 'em out of the boxes and onto some carpet sliders, I think moving them into position won't be a problem....but how to (safely) get them un-boxed, I'm unsure?? Maybe flip the box upside down, open the bottom then flip it right side up and pull the box off...?
I used the flip method to get my XS30se's un boxed and it was a workout. if I were doing anything bigger I think I'd want a second set of hands -the weight isn't as much of a problem as the inability to effectively reach around the thing when it's boxed.
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post #15150 of 16871 Old 11-21-2014, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
You got your sub in the front corner right? Crossed at 80hz? You shouldn't be getting any localization at all no matter what the sub trim (well, within reason).



Yes, closing the register will help with bass leakage (although, with that small of an opening, I wouldn't worry too much about that), but more importantly, you won't be cooking your sub.

Remind me...have you measured your response with REW? If not, I would suggest this be your next step.
Yes, sub in front corner, mains are crossed at 80hz if that's what you're asking? If not, LPF of LFE setting in receiver is set to 100hz. I haven't had a chance to start learning REW. I don't have a mic for it yet, either.

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