Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 508 - AVS Forum
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Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers > Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar Tom Vodhanel 03:24 PM 11-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnc View Post
Great information, thanks! I see in that comparison they compared the NON-se version to the SB-13U and found the music capability to be not as good. Am I safe to assume that comparing the XS30SE to the PC-12 Plus, they would be closer in music performance?
In terms of overall sound quality I wouldn't be surprised if you found the XS30se to be a bit better. It will have better impulse, group delay, ringing metrics. In terms of sheer output capabilities, the XS30se will have approximately 3x the headroom from 50hz and up so it will be able to play significantly louder, cleaner, and "effortlessly" is you enjoy cranking up an occasional concert DVD to realistic levels.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

mp5475's Avatar mp5475 04:10 PM 11-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Gain settings on our Power-X series usually need to be set quite a bit higher than other brands. Our input sensitivity isn't as high.(remember the gain really just changes the input sensitivity on the amp, it isn't a volume control).

In most cases, I'd start with the gain around the 2/3rd-3/4 rotation area.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Thanks
jer181's Avatar jer181 05:58 PM 11-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
you DEFINTIELY lose tachtile feel I went from suspended living room floor with my dual xs30's to a basement...and the tactile feel is gone. (well diminished quite a bit) I even put noe near feild, and it ws disappointing. SO I bought a buttkicker...helped a bunch...

I wilol build a very low platform to get the feeling back once I complete my HT down there
What if you just did a sub floor with putting down plywood and didn't really raise it off the floor that much. Think that would help?
jer181's Avatar jer181 06:03 PM 11-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Non SE and SE products will perform very well together. The non SE won't have quite the headroom or
composure as you near the performance limits however.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Do you offer any type of deal if I wanted to get a new XS30se and swap out the amp and driver of the original and replace it with a se? I live in Alberta so I would do everything at once for shipping purposes.
Billy p's Avatar Billy p 07:39 PM 11-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnc View Post
Great information, thanks! I see in that comparison they compared the NON-se version to the SB-13U and found the music capability to be not as good. Am I safe to assume that comparing the XS30SE to the PC-12 Plus, they would be closer in music performance?
I cant speak for the PC/PB 12+...but in terms of overall improvement the SE did not disappoint. I know Jim Wilson(aka Jman) after doing a supplemental review of the xs15se thought it was a step up from the original XS15. From my own personal "SE" listening sessions, I was able to clearly discern certain captions sounding more refined with no overhang.... these attributes set the ultra apart from the Non SE version based on my recollection.
ahblaza's Avatar ahblaza 08:52 PM 11-26-2014
I might try building some platforms to put under my XS30Ses to simulate a raised hardwood floor, probably won't do anything but I still have all that tactile feel with my dual XS30SEs and they aren't near field. By the way guys I just got the Pulse BD today, where is that scene you all talk about in reference to the time into the disc. No I don't have 900 subs, closer to 800. Funny you mentioned that as I just got done talking with Jim about sending me out two more XS30SEs, early Christmas present, so that will 802 subs
Cheers Jeff
ahblaza's Avatar ahblaza 09:11 PM 11-26-2014
I really believe that putting the 2" feet under the XS30SEs really helped with the tactile feel, same applies to my speaker stands for the 210s, my feet are 2" diameter threaded sliders into 5/16" threaded inserts and with the weight of the 210s 55 lbs. and the ability to level the stands completely really helps with the stands and speakers being inert. I wanted to isolate the stands from the carpet over concrete so that's why I didn't use spikes that would penetrate the carpet into the concrete, I had that setup before and I think it deadened the sound like everything was being sent back up through the stands into the speaker cabs. With this setup now the stands are completely isolated from the concrete and the speakers are isolated as well with heavy duty (up to 70 pounds) dampening pucks that are used on the bases of real heavy computer cases, they are from Quiet PC and do an excellent job of keeping the 210s stable (not moving on the platform) and isolated from the speakers as well, like having the speakers suspended in mid air.......
Cheers Jeff
raynist's Avatar raynist 09:31 PM 11-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
I might try building some platforms to put under my XS30Ses to simulate a raised hardwood floor, probably won't do anything but I still have all that tactile feel with my dual XS30SEs and they aren't near field. By the way guys I just got the Pulse BD today, where is that scene you all talk about in reference to the time into the disc. No I don't have 900 subs, closer to 800. Funny you mentioned that as I just got done talking with Jim about sending me out two more XS30SEs, early Christmas present, so that will 802 subs
Cheers Jeff
Jeff, to simulate the wood/suspended floor you would want to build a small riser out of wood for your couch. With this your couch would vibrate more with the bass than when it is on concrete. I thought of building a small one for my couch. It would have to be real low, like 2 inches or so. Not sure if that would really help if it was only 2 inches high.
t231's Avatar t231 09:56 PM 11-26-2014
I'm sure a platform etc would be nice way to get the tactile feel back... but I have the feeling a transducer is quite a bit easier.

My HT is on a slab with carpet and tactile response even from my mighty XS30se's is minimal at everything but extreme volumes. My single crowson under the couch fills in the tactile void nicely -and it's a very natural feel. Highly recommend them.
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar Tom Vodhanel 08:40 AM 11-27-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jer181 View Post
Do you offer any type of deal if I wanted to get a new XS30se and swap out the amp and driver of the original and replace it with a se? I live in Alberta so I would do everything at once for shipping purposes.
Please jump into chat or email me and we can discuss this. AVS has a policy against OEMs discussing specific discounts and such. Thanks. support@powersoundaudio.com

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar Tom Vodhanel 08:45 AM 11-27-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by t231 View Post
I'm sure a platform etc would be nice way to get the tactile feel back... but I have the feeling a transducer is quite a bit easier.

My HT is on a slab with carpet and tactile response even from my mighty XS30se's is minimal at everything but extreme volumes. My single crowson under the couch fills in the tactile void nicely -and it's a very natural feel. Highly recommend them.
If you go with TTs I'd try to keep them on a discrete signal that has the ability to add some delay. I haven't spent much time with them lately but I do remember that having the ability to delay the TT signal allowed me to time their output to the arrival of the sub output.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
basshead81's Avatar basshead81 08:48 AM 11-27-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by t231 View Post
I'm sure a platform etc would be nice way to get the tactile feel back... but I have the feeling a transducer is quite a bit easier.

My HT is on a slab with carpet and tactile response even from my mighty XS30se's is minimal at everything but extreme volumes. My single crowson under the couch fills in the tactile void nicely -and it's a very natural feel. Highly recommend them.
my understanding is transducers sound artificial unless you go with something quality like the Crowsons. This is just what I read from a few forum members with pretty killer setups so take it fwiw. Also it has been proven that ported subs have more tactile response...check out Your Home Theater ULF Score
jbrown15's Avatar jbrown15 09:50 AM 11-27-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
my understanding is transducers sound artificial unless you go with something quality like the Crowsons. This is just what I read from a few forum members with pretty killer setups so take it fwiw. Also it has been proven that ported subs have more tactile response...check out Your Home Theater ULF Score

I have to agree basshead, from everything that I've read if I was going to add transducers into my system Crowsons would be the only ones I'd be buying. I just wish they didn't cost some damn much!....lol
basshead81's Avatar basshead81 09:56 AM 11-27-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
I have to agree basshead, from everything that I've read if I was going to add transducers into my system Crowsons would be the only ones I'd be buying. I just wish they didn't cost some damn much!....lol


I do not think you will need them with 6 UXL-18's anyway.
FattyMcButterPants 09:57 AM 11-27-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post
Jeff, to simulate the wood/suspended floor you would want to build a small riser out of wood for your couch. With this your couch would vibrate more with the bass than when it is on concrete. I thought of building a small one for my couch. It would have to be real low, like 2 inches or so. Not sure if that would really help if it was only 2 inches high.
This is an interesting thought. I always figured the subs had to be on the platform with the couch. You guys think it'll work with the couch on it's own platform?
bear123's Avatar bear123 10:11 AM 11-27-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
This is an interesting thought. I always figured the subs had to be on the platform with the couch. You guys think it'll work with the couch on it's own platform?
The cabs contacting the riser has nothing to do with how much tactile energy is transferred. The tactile energy is transferred through the air via the sound produced by the driver. The sound interacts with the wooden platform, resulting in the rumble and shaking effect. Solid concrete attached to the earth is a bit too solid and massive to vibrate. Hence the riser.

This is also why, on dual opposed subs such as the XS30, you room/couch can be shaking rather vigorously, while putting your hand on the cab would not even indicate whether the sub was playing.
FattyMcButterPants 10:21 AM 11-27-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
The cabs contacting the riser has nothing to do with how much tactile energy is transferred. The tactile energy is transferred through the air via the sound produced by the driver. The sound interacts with the wooden platform, resulting in the rumble and shaking effect. Solid concrete attached to the earth is a bit too solid and massive to vibrate. Hence the riser.

This is also why, on dual opposed subs such as the XS30, you room/couch can be shaking rather vigorously, while putting your hand on the cab would not even indicate whether the sub was playing.
Understood. It just seems like if I were to put the subs on the same platform I could simulate near field placement somewhat. It would catch all that intensity right at the source and transmit more of it?

In any event this is great news! I can totally build a platform for the cough in my living room. Thanks for the info
bear123's Avatar bear123 10:26 AM 11-27-2014
I love my platform: suspended wooden floors in a house built in 1928 with a full basement.
Hopinater's Avatar Hopinater 11:59 AM 11-27-2014
I'm kind of like Basshead, I get some decent tactile feel even though my HT is in the basement with a concrete floor. But I'm fairly certain that it would be quit a bit better if my system was on a wooden floor. I think it's the nearfield sub that gives me the tactile feel I have, if it was placed someplace further away I think I would probably lose what I have.

That's a great idea you guys suggested building a platform for the couch.
FattyMcButterPants 12:02 PM 11-27-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
I'm kind of like Basshead, I get some decent tactile feel even though my HT is in the basement with a concrete floor. But I'm fairly certain that it would be quit a bit better if my system was on a wooden floor. I think it's the nearfield sub that gives me the tactile feel I have, if it was placed someplace further away I think I would probably lose what I have.

That's a great idea you guys suggested building a platform for the couch.
It really is a great idea, and definitely the one I am most interested in. Looks like I have a new project to start when I get the motivation
Brian Fineberg's Avatar Brian Fineberg 12:18 PM 11-27-2014
Same here!! Might just do 2x4's on their side. With plywood over them
Hopinater's Avatar Hopinater 12:26 PM 11-27-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
Same here!! Might just do 2x4's on their side. With plywood over them
Yeah that's what I was thinking as well then I think I would carpet it which might be the challenge, trying to get the matching carpet might take some effort.
digler84's Avatar digler84 12:38 PM 11-27-2014
or just paint it flat black. depending how large you make the base, you may not even see or notice it. it would just blend in.
LowellG's Avatar LowellG 12:50 PM 11-27-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
I'm kind of like Basshead, I get some decent tactile feel even though my HT is in the basement with a concrete floor. But I'm fairly certain that it would be quit a bit better if my system was on a wooden floor. I think it's the nearfield sub that gives me the tactile feel I have, if it was placed someplace further away I think I would probably lose what I have.

That's a great idea you guys suggested building a platform for the couch.

So are you guys saying by putting my seating on a couple inch platform I will get better tactile impact? Wouldn't furniture composition matter then too?


I am currently on carpeted concrete and improved my tactile impact by pulling my subs further from the wall and upping the starting gain a little. It's way better than my original problems, but I still have the 60Hz-80Hz drop when I use REW. It feels way better than before, but know the drop is there still drives me nuts. So I try not to obsess on it to much.
jer181's Avatar jer181 12:55 PM 11-27-2014
I think I started something here..... Tom you should start building a PSA certified couch platform!!!
basshead81's Avatar basshead81 02:06 PM 11-27-2014
I could not imagine placing my couch on a riser...the vibrometer app would probably go up to 9...total destruction.
dominguez1's Avatar dominguez1 02:40 PM 11-27-2014
Regarding risers and tactile feedback:

Building a riser to flex is the right way to go, but just remember that each riser will have a resonant frequency at which it will vibrate more aggressively. So although it will likely vibrate some at all LFE frequencies (certainly more than concrete) to some extent, it may not be as much as you'd think or to what some experience with suspended floors; especially if its resonant frequency is outside of the LFE range.

The trick is building one where it has its resonant frequency in the LF range, or even better, the ULF range. Unfortunately, I have no clue on how to tune your riser to the frequency you want...

Basshead81's visceral shaking is because he has 1) capable subs, 2) nearfield, 3) his couch has a resonant frequency in the LFE range. Take 1 of the 3 ingredients away, and the effect is much less...

My HT seating's resonant frequency is right at 15hz, as another example.

The people that talk about their couches or suspended floors shaking viscerally, likely have LFE resonant frequencies.

One other note: while risers will certainly help the tactile feedback, they will still not likely have the same effect as suspended floors unless the sub is near the riser. With suspended floors, the sub is essentially nearfield to the floor since it spans the entire space. Because it is nearfield, it will excite the floor right next to it, sending waves everywhere else. If the subs are far away from the riser, it has less ability (PVL) to excite the riser as compared to nearfield, and thus will have less of an effect.
jer181's Avatar jer181 06:09 PM 11-27-2014
Hey Tom,

A few days ago I was chatting with you and told you that I could hear a "popping" sound while my AVR was turned off, like the driver was moving. You had told me to turn off my sub, unplug the cable because it was something in the house interfering with it. While I did just that and I just heard it again. It seems to happen every time my furnace kicks on!!!

My sub is always "on" because I have it to auto on/off, and it never turns off. Is this going to damage the sub in anyway?
ahblaza's Avatar ahblaza 07:51 PM 11-27-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jer181 View Post
Hey Tom,

A few days ago I was chatting with you and told you that I could hear a "popping" sound while my AVR was turned off, like the driver was moving. You had told me to turn off my sub, unplug the cable because it was something in the house interfering with it. While I did just that and I just heard it again. It seems to happen every time my furnace kicks on!!!

My sub is always "on" because I have it to auto on/off, and it never turns off. Is this going to damage the sub in anyway?
If you shut down your sub, power it off or unplug it, then pull the sub cable off, plug the power cord back in and then power on the sub and toggle the power switch on and off and notice if the driver moves at all and notice what sound the sub makes as you you toggle the power switch on and off. With the sub cable pulled and the sub's amp on stand by it should shut off within 10-15 minutes, if not the amp needs replaced. I had a problem with one of my XS30SEs not powering off at stand by for two hours, it ended it being the source which was my Comcast DVR which was the last source used before powering off the receiver, it had a residual noise signal that the sub's amp was detecting through the sub cable and thus the long shut off in stand by. I disconnected the the sub cable and the amp in stand by shut down in 10 minutes.
Your sub's amp not powering down in stand by with sub cable pulled means the amp is defective, the popping when the furnace kicking on is the circuit your sub is on and has nothing to do with the stand by mode not powering off without a sub cable attached. Try a different circuit or receptacle that you know the furnace is not on it and see if the popping still exists when the furnace kicks on, that will at least eliminate one problem. The other problem (sorry to keep repeating myself) with the sub in stand by not powering off without a sub cable plugged in is a defective amp, normal shutdown in stand by is 10-15 minutes. Do you hear the pop when the furnace kicks on with the sub cable pulled and in stand by mode? Also when you shut your AVR off is there a particular source that was used when you shut down the AVR or does it happen no matter what the previous source was used? The furnace situation has me concerned, I wouldn't worry about damaging the sub as I think the damage may already happened. If you get anything out of all that I said the sub amp in auto on/off position should never stay on with the sub cable pulled. Try a different outlet with an extension cord with a similar AWG as the sub's power cord and don't connect a sub interconnect and power it on and then put the toggle switch in the auto on/off position and see what happens, if all is as should be the sub will power down within 15 minutes and listen for the furnace starting and get back with your results. Sorry for the lengthy reply, I have a hard time trying to put my thought into words. I could have told you all of this in 2 or 3 sentences.
Cheers Jeff
ahblaza's Avatar ahblaza 07:57 PM 11-27-2014
I realize the entire floor should be suspended but if I decide to build a riser for my couch using 2X4s should I use a bottom piece of plywood along with the top as well. I don't know why I'm even thinking about this as I get very good tactile feel from my XS30SEs that are not near field and plan on adding some additional near field subs behind the PLP collocated. TIA
Cheers Jeff
Tags: Xs30 , Velodyne Sms 1 In Room Bass Correction Kit With Included Microphone , Denon Avr 3313ci Receiver , Denon Avr 4520ci Receiver , Power Sound Audio , Xv15 , Power Sound Audio Triax , Room Equilizer Wizard Rew , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver
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