Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 514 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 12-09-2014, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopin_Guy View Post
Nothing is wrong with the PB13 necessarily...

Perhaps the curiosity of a dual sealed dual-opposed setup has me intrigued -- I've never had a dual sub setup before. It's the second PB13 I've owned over the years, actually -- had a bash version perviously. This is one is obviously the SLEDGE amp, and find that even in my small room I have to run the amp at -5db to get the appropriate Audyssey result. This has always struck me as high for a small room -- perhaps my Denon 3808 has a week output or these SLEDGE amps have a different input sensitivity.

In any event, it's probably more the curiosity of trying something new. I was also even entreating a JTR Cap or a Seaton Submerssive (and that would allow to add a slave unit down the road).

So that is kind of where I'm coming from...
My vote would be for the JTR Cap 2400

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Old 12-09-2014, 10:09 AM
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Hey guys thanks for all the feedback. As I was laying in bed last night thinking about that roll off I started to wonder the same thing that some of you asked about the whether the subs were even kicking in or not. It was my first time actually getting REW to work so who knows if I did things right or not. I couldn't get the HDMI to work right on the computer so I had to do everything using RCA cables and the JAVA drivers. It's been a frustrating week or so as I try to get this stuff figured out. Luckily there's no time crunch so I will just practice some patience (something I'm not very good at) and plod along and figure out this new world of REW.

It's great knowing I can post my results here and get you guys to help me out. I have to say I love the AVS community because it has so many great guys (like you all) with a wealth of knowledge willing to share their expertise. So thank you to you all.

Okay, I'm going back to my REW to run some more sweeps. I'll post back later.
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Old 12-09-2014, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red99 View Post
I got my subs Friday. They sound good, but I was expecting a little more out of them. But I do have a lot of air space to fill. I have a calibration mic on order. I will see if that can help me tune these better. Maybe I will need to order a couple more.

Before ordering more be sure to pop into chat or email me so we can be 100% sure these are optimized. A dual XS15se combo packs a big punch..

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Old 12-09-2014, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopin_Guy View Post
Nothing is wrong with the PB13 necessarily...

Perhaps the curiosity of a dual sealed dual-opposed setup has me intrigued -- I've never had a dual sub setup before. It's the second PB13 I've owned over the years, actually -- had a bash version perviously. This is one is obviously the SLEDGE amp, and find that even in my small room I have to run the amp at -5db to get the appropriate Audyssey result. This has always struck me as high for a small room -- perhaps my Denon 3808 has a week output or these SLEDGE amps have a different input sensitivity.

In any event, it's probably more the curiosity of trying something new. I was also even entreating a JTR Cap or a Seaton Submerssive (and that would allow to add a slave unit down the road).

So that is kind of where I'm coming from...
Remember the gain control is not a volume control.

http://www.powersoundaudio.com/pages/gain-control

All it really does is adjust the input sensitivity on the subwoofer amp.

Dual XS30se versus a single PB13u...I think you'll find these two options perform very differently.

1)The dual XS30se will extend a bit deeper (assuming the 13u is in 20hz mode). Also, the shallow rolloff of the XS30se will offer audible sound quality benefits as well. This will be particularly noticeable with music playback.

2)In a relatively narrow bandwidth(say 18-25hz) the max output capabilit close. But over the large majority of the operating bandwidth the dual XS30se will have a substantial advantage. In the mid/upper bass (say 40-100hz) the XS30se combo will average triple the headroom for example.

3)You may also see benefits from the dual sub system in regards to smoothing room induced peaks and nulls at the seats.

I'm biased of course but imo, the dual XS30se combo would be a significant upgrade for you.

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Power Sound Audio
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Old 12-09-2014, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
1)The dual XS30se will extend a bit deeper (assuming the 13u is in 20hz mode). Also, the shallow rolloff of the XS30se will offer audible sound quality benefits as well. This will be particularly noticeable with music playback.

2)In a relatively narrow bandwidth(say 18-25hz) the max output capabilit close. But over the large majority of the operating bandwidth the dual XS30se will have a substantial advantage. In the mid/upper bass (say 40-100hz) the XS30se combo will average triple the headroom for example.

3)You may also see benefits from the dual sub system in regards to smoothing room induced peaks and nulls at the seats.

I'm biased of course but imo, the dual XS30se combo would be a significant upgrade for you.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Thank you Tom -- appreciate all the info. Shall see as I have someone coming to audition the PB13 on Thursday...

Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music.
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Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils.
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Old 12-09-2014, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Remember the gain control is not a volume control.

http://www.powersoundaudio.com/pages/gain-control

All it really does is adjust the input sensitivity on the subwoofer amp.

Dual XS30se versus a single PB13u...I think you'll find these two options perform very differently.

1)The dual XS30se will extend a bit deeper (assuming the 13u is in 20hz mode). Also, the shallow rolloff of the XS30se will offer audible sound quality benefits as well. This will be particularly noticeable with music playback.

2)In a relatively narrow bandwidth(say 18-25hz) the max output capabilit close. But over the large majority of the operating bandwidth the dual XS30se will have a substantial advantage. In the mid/upper bass (say 40-100hz) the XS30se combo will average triple the headroom for example.

3)You may also see benefits from the dual sub system in regards to smoothing room induced peaks and nulls at the seats.

I'm biased of course but imo, the dual XS30se combo would be a significant upgrade for you.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Won't the usable extension of the XS30s be room dependent? If they are in a large room they won't benefit from much if any "room gain" thus limiting their useful output to about the natural roll off of around 24hz (I'm guessing on that number )

Then the comment about the shallower roll off. Doesn't that occur well below the threshold for most music content?

Curious more than anything and trying to learn.

Thanks

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Old 12-09-2014, 01:59 PM
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Okay guys I figured out the reason for the huge roll off on those first graphs, it's because I didn't notice that somehow the receiver had slipped into "Direct" mode thus bypassing the subs all together. With all the other things I was trying to figure out I totally missed that. A simple solution.

I have to say once I got rolling with REW I started having a blast. Seeing whats going on in the room is very cool and provides a ton of much needed information. One thing I learned is that my nearfield sub is in a very bad spot. Which is exactly why I wanted to run REW, I wanted to discover where my system is struggling, after all what is the point of having a XV15se valued at $900 underperforming. On the other hand my corner loaded sub seems to be placed well.

In the graphs below are the dual subs running together with Audyssey engaged (red line) and without Audyssey (green line). I used 1/6 smoothing and the sweep runs from 15Hz to 200Hz. Please provide any thoughts on what you guys see here.

I did a lot of measuring and when I measured the corner sub by itself it had a very similar graph as the the dual subs had running together (see below). But when I measured the nearfield sub by itself it looked pretty bad. I thinks it's either not contributing much or its actually dragging down the system so I think I will have to move it. But before I did anything I wanted to post the latest measurements and see what you guys thought. Thanks again for your help guys.
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Old 12-09-2014, 02:32 PM
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Hey hop glad you figured it out

Please repost with no smoothing (that's only for full range responses)

Also make sure dynEQ is off.

Measure l+SW r+sW and c + sw
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Old 12-09-2014, 02:46 PM
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Hop, what version of Audessey do you have? It still rolls off too soon. You will notice that your FR of each sub is not pretty as long as the combined is. What you want is the dip and peak from each sub offset each other as it will gives you a flat FR when playing together
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Old 12-09-2014, 03:30 PM
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What surround mode are you using when measuring?

Do you use the system for mostly movies or do you listen to music on it as well?

To optimize for movies, you want to use PLII surround mode to send the signal to subs+CC. To optimize for music, use STEREO to send the signal to the subs+FL/R.

And yeah....no smoothing on those sub graphs!
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Old 12-09-2014, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopin_Guy View Post
Nothing is wrong with the PB13 necessarily...

Perhaps the curiosity of a dual sealed dual-opposed setup has me intrigued -- I've never had a dual sub setup before. It's the second PB13 I've owned over the years, actually -- had a bash version perviously. This is one is obviously the SLEDGE amp, and find that even in my small room I have to run the amp at -5db to get the appropriate Audyssey result. This has always struck me as high for a small room -- perhaps my Denon 3808 has a week output or these SLEDGE amps have a different input sensitivity.

In any event, it's probably more the curiosity of trying something new. I was also even entreating a JTR Cap or a Seaton Submerssive (and that would allow to add a slave unit down the road).

So that is kind of where I'm coming from...
Ahh ok...I was just curious was all. I think you will find that it takes dual XS30's to equal 1 PB13 around the PB's tuning point, but everywhere else there should be a improvement. I think you will notice an improvement in accuracy as well.
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Old 12-09-2014, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post
Won't the usable extension of the XS30s be room dependent? If they are in a large room they won't benefit from much if any "room gain" thus limiting their useful output to about the natural roll off of around 24hz (I'm guessing on that number )

Then the comment about the shallower roll off. Doesn't that occur well below the threshold for most music content?

Curious more than anything and trying to learn.

Thanks
Don't use a generic "room gain formula" as those really aren't accurate. You can see a good amount of "room gain" in spaces as large as 6000-8000 cu-ft. In this case if we only see say 3dB at 20hz, 5dB at 15hz and 8dB at 10hz....the XS30s will still be in a fairly tight +/-3dB window minus the typical boundary induced peaks/dips.

Here is a link showing the room gain for some larger rooms.

http://www.nousaine.com/pdfs/Monster%20Bass.pdf

The rolloff is going to drive several key aspects of sound quality---impulse, stored ringing, group delay. Significant differences in any one of these could be audible. When you have difference in all three, the sound quality differences tend to be easy to hear in my experience. This is particularly true when matching the subwoofer roll off to the room transfer function.

Tom V.
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Old 12-09-2014, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Don't use a generic "room gain formula" as those really aren't accurate. You can see a good amount of "room gain" in spaces as large as 6000-8000 cu-ft. In this case if we only see say 3dB at 20hz, 5dB at 15hz and 8dB at 10hz....the XS30s will still be in a fairly tight +/-3dB window minus the typical boundary induced peaks/dips.

Here is a link showing the room gain for some larger rooms.

http://www.nousaine.com/pdfs/Monster%20Bass.pdf

The rolloff is going to drive several key aspects of sound quality---impulse, stored ringing, group delay. Significant differences in any one of these could be audible. When you have difference in all three, the sound quality differences tend to be easy to hear in my experience. This is particularly true when matching the subwoofer roll off to the room transfer function.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Thanks. Still don't really understand it all.

Might try my Plus in sealed mode again just for kicks, since my room is only 1650^3 ft.

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Old 12-09-2014, 06:15 PM
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For those who remember my room null problem, or severe drop at the 60Hz to 80Hz range, I have a question. Do you think having the XS30s firing both directions with their reflections could cause that problem? While I drastically improved my chest thump effect by pulling the subs about a foot off the wall, I still show a 10-15db drop between those frequencies. It bothers me so much I don't even use REW or think something is wrong with it.

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Old 12-09-2014, 07:12 PM
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Okay guys thanks for the responses. I will try again tomorrow or Thursday since tomorrow might be a little busy. I will rerun with no smoothing and try to get this thing figured out based on your suggestions.
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Old 12-09-2014, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by LowellG View Post
For those who remember my room null problem, or severe drop at the 60Hz to 80Hz range, I have a question. Do you think having the XS30s firing both directions with their reflections could cause that problem? While I drastically improved my chest thump effect by pulling the subs about a foot off the wall, I still show a 10-15db drop between those frequencies. It bothers me so much I don't even use REW or think something is wrong with it.
I would try putting one of them in a rear corner of the room...in opposite corners, and rerun REW.

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Old 12-09-2014, 08:54 PM
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I would try putting one of them in a rear corner of the room...in opposite corners, and rerun REW.

The rear corner would be on the riser and one side would be firing into a bass trap. Would that matter?

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Old 12-09-2014, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by LowellG View Post
The rear corner would be on the riser and one side would be firing into a bass trap. Would that matter?

If its a fiberglass tri-corner bass trap it won't matter much as they don't do anything for lower frequencies. Those bass traps are only effective for stuff over a 100hz.
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Old 12-09-2014, 09:11 PM
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If its a fiberglass tri-corner bass trap it won't matter much as they don't do anything for lower frequencies. Those bass traps are only effective for stuff over a 100hz.
Yes, it's Owens 703. If I don't have anything absorbing the lowest stuff, is it possible I have to much bass?

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Old 12-09-2014, 10:25 PM
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does anyone know if this can be any helpful to increase or remove any distortion or is it that it will reduce the thump etc if used for xs30se...

I think it won't even fit it..

http://www.amazon.com/Auralex-GRAMMA...6f2d6f8051028b

TIA
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Old 12-10-2014, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Cyborg_Optoma View Post
does anyone know if this can be any helpful to increase or remove any distortion or is it that it will reduce the thump etc if used for xs30se...

I think it won't even fit it..

http://www.amazon.com/Auralex-GRAMMA...6f2d6f8051028b

TIA
It won't do anything at all. Actually, it will make the sub an inch or two taller.
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Old 12-10-2014, 05:39 AM
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would it help with reducing (not eliminating obviously)bass resonating through the house by decouplig it from the concrete foundation?

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Old 12-10-2014, 05:45 AM
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would it help with reducing (not eliminating obviously)bass resonating through the house by decouplig it from the concrete foundation?
I don't think any bass is transmitted through the cab to anything it is touching, especially in a dual opposed, completely inert cabinet. In a single driver cab, there is a little bit of vibration due to the movement of the driver, but it is a grain of sand on the beach compared to the bass produced by the driver and transmitted through the air. To eliminate those vibrations, I used ten cent foam pads that PSA provided for free and stuck them on the rubber feet of my XV15se's since I am on hardwood.
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Old 12-10-2014, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by LowellG View Post
For those who remember my room null problem, or severe drop at the 60Hz to 80Hz range, I have a question. Do you think having the XS30s firing both directions with their reflections could cause that problem? While I drastically improved my chest thump effect by pulling the subs about a foot off the wall, I still show a 10-15db drop between those frequencies.
Hey Lowell,

Do you have any new measurements after you moved the subs and the MLP? Didn't see any in your build thread.

The direction the XS30s are firing should have very little impact on the FR. Did you do the dual sub crawl that I recommended in your build thread?

Quote:
It bothers me so much I don't even use REW or think something is wrong with it.
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Old 12-10-2014, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyborg_Optoma View Post
does anyone know if this can be any helpful to increase or remove any distortion or is it that it will reduce the thump etc if used for xs30se...

I think it won't even fit it..

http://www.amazon.com/Auralex-GRAMMA...6f2d6f8051028b

TIA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
would it help with reducing (not eliminating obviously)bass resonating through the house by decouplig it from the concrete foundation?

Nope.

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Audyssey 101
Audyssey FAQ
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Old 12-10-2014, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
I don't think any bass is transmitted through the cab to anything it is touching, especially in a dual opposed, completely inert cabinet. In a single driver cab, there is a little bit of vibration due to the movement of the driver, but it is a grain of sand on the beach compared to the bass produced by the driver and transmitted through the air. To eliminate those vibrations, I used ten cent foam pads that PSA provided for free and stuck them on the rubber feet of my XV15se's since I am on hardwood.
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Nope.
thats what I figured

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Old 12-10-2014, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Ignorance is biss!
But he can't now knowing that he doesn't get the best out of his sub(s)
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Old 12-10-2014, 11:45 AM
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Yeah, once you see your REW results, there's no un-seeing them.

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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Old 12-10-2014, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Yeah, once you see your REW results, there's no un-seeing them.
That is what I am afraid of. I plan to get a umik soon and downloading REW, but I think the results will drive me into some crazy obsession chasing optimal performance....
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Old 12-10-2014, 11:56 AM
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That is correct Fatty.


Or....you're response is already perfect and you'll be happy as a clam (unlikely)!

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
--------------------------------------------------
Getting Started with REW
Audyssey 101
Audyssey FAQ
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