Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 517 - AVS Forum
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post #15481 of 15787 Old 12-12-2014, 01:49 PM
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I was able to flatten the 5db dip close to my 80hz xover with sub distance tweak. I don't know he can with the 30db null he mentioned.
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post #15482 of 15787 Old 12-12-2014, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
I was able to flatten the 5db dip close to my 80hz xover with sub distance tweak. I don't know he can with the 30db null he mentioned.
Did the null move anywhere else in the frequency response? I noticed that the distance settings only moved the nulls in my room to another frequency (i.e. from 60Hz to 40Hz or the other way to 80Hz).
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post #15483 of 15787 Old 12-12-2014, 03:26 PM
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^^ Does not look like it does on my graph

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post #15484 of 15787 Old 12-12-2014, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Bass I agree with you but it got me thinking, what the difference between adding a minidsp and running XT32 where Audyssey allows for the EQ of the two subs separately? Either way you are EQ-ing the subs. Or am I missing something with that logic?

Audyssey's wording for SubEQ isn't very straightforward. It doesn't EQ the subs separately. It sets the levels and delay individually for each sub, but then equalizes them as one, which gives you sub optimal results. The MiniDSP gives you exponentially more tunability for each sub.

Quote from Chris K (Audyssey); Sub EQ HT is a method we came up with to deal with multiple subs. If you only have one sub then it's not in use. The idea is to first measure each sub separately, then apply delay and level settings so that the two subs are now time and level aligned. Then we ping them once more as "one" sub to derive the room correction filter.
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post #15485 of 15787 Old 12-12-2014, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Bass I agree with you but it got me thinking, what the difference between adding a minidsp and running XT32 where Audyssey allows for the EQ of the two subs separately? Either way you are EQ-ing the subs. Or am I missing something with that logic?
the difference is the mini dsp gives you full control of the eq applied. Audyssey does what it thinks is best...that can be influenced by improper mic setup and what not. The thing is I have seen Audyssey do more harm then good with eq'ing subwoofers. It tends to over boost the low end, especially in rooms that do not offer a lot of room gain. Bam there goes all of your upper bass headroom. Not saying Audyssey is bad, but I would definitely want to measure pre and post Audyssey to see what it is doing...I would not rely on it to dial in my subs blind folded.
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post #15486 of 15787 Old 12-12-2014, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Yeah, you need to calibrate your SPL, all laid out in the Guide. You've read the Guide, right??

In short; open the SPL meter in REW, click "Calibrate", "Use Subwoofer cal signal". Then hold your SPL meter right next to the tip of your mic. Take note of the SPL reading on your handheld SPL meter and punch that number into REW.


You want to use the narrow band 90 degree cal file and point the mic towards the ceiling.

Thanks for the tip Alan. That did the trick. I misunderstood what I was suppose to do. This looks better.
Top measurement is with the SPL at 90dB, the bottom at 80 dB.
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post #15487 of 15787 Old 12-12-2014, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ Does not look like it does on my graph
Now that graph looks pretty nice. Wish mine looked like that.
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post #15488 of 15787 Old 12-12-2014, 08:56 PM
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Hey I have a stupid question. I know when you are measuring subs you want the SPL on C weighted. But when I looked at the step by step guide for REW that I found it talked about going to the Mic/meter tab under Preferences and selecting Z weighted. If we are measuring our subs shouldn't this be changed to C weighted or should we still Z weighted?

I hope that question makes sense the way I worded it.
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post #15489 of 15787 Old 12-12-2014, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
How do you all run Audyssey? I ran it twice today and got two pretty different results for my subs (see below). This graph is of my center channel and the 4 triax subs. One run has a nice natural house curve. I ran Audyssey at 8 positions all working a foot of each other both times. The only difference other than that is that I was sitting in different spots each run. I guess the other variable is if I had the REW mic in the exact same spot



I know that the Audyssey sub distance tweak has been takes about here several times. Here is a before and after of doing this process using my center and subs.



This above graph is from my first Audyssey calibration today - the one that produced the nice house curve above. Interestingly, the second run I did today that doesn't have the nice house curve produced a perfect integration between the center and subs. I wasnt able to improve upon it with the sub distance tweak.
I ran an audyssey calibration today (using boom mic ) and them did the sub distance tweak (purple line). I then used a minidsp to add in a house curve (red line) After doing that I notice in the graph that for the house curve run dropped a bit from 80-120. Do I need to do the sub distance tweak again?

No smoothing:


I really wasn't sure how to do the house curve in REW so i just did it in the minidsp plugin, is this the correct way? I am open to suggestions.


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post #15490 of 15787 Old 12-12-2014, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
the difference is the mini dsp gives you full control of the eq applied. Audyssey does what it thinks is best...that can be influenced by improper mic setup and what not. The thing is I have seen Audyssey do more harm then good with eq'ing subwoofers. It tends to over boost the low end, especially in rooms that do not offer a lot of room gain. Bam there goes all of your upper bass headroom. Not saying Audyssey is bad, but I would definitely want to measure pre and post Audyssey to see what it is doing...I would not rely on it to dial in my subs blind folded.
Bas you hit the nail on the head my friend, until I know what's going on in my room I don't want Auddyssey changing anything, I did notice a lot of muddy bass after Audyssey though and it wasn't there pre Audy. I was measuring my dual XS30SEs today to see if I had an even output across all seating areas and I did which was surprising to me, then by accident I placed the Galazy 140 which was on the boom stand about 4' behind the MLP and the output shot up 4.5 dB, just moving the MLP a few feet can make all the difference in the world. I moved the MLP and sure enough there was that 4.5 increase in output. I then put the seat back ahead 4' and changed the subs distance by 4' and I had that same increase in output. That's why I so agree with your statement to know what's going on with your room acoustics before just running Audy, thanks my friend. Now come over to my house and run REW for me, UMIK-1, laptop and REW is ready to go
Cheers Jeff
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post #15491 of 15787 Old 12-12-2014, 09:27 PM
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Bas you hit the nail on the head my friend, until I know what's going on in my room I don't want Auddyssey changing anything, I did notice a lot of muddy bass after Audyssey though and it wasn't there pre Audy. I was measuring my dual XS30SEs today to see if I had an even output across all seating areas and I did which was surprising to me, then by accident I placed the Galazy 140 which was on the boom stand about 4' behind the MLP and the output shot up 4.5 dB, just moving the MLP a few feet can make all the difference in the world. I moved the MLP and sure enough there was that 4.5 increase in output. I then put the seat back ahead 4' and changed the subs distance by 4' and I had that same increase in output. That's why I so agree with your statement to know what's going on with your room acoustics before just running Audy, thanks my friend. Now come over to my house and run REW for me, UMIK-1, laptop and REW is ready to go
Cheers Jeff
Here is a graph with and without audyssey on my subs. I could never go without it on my subs.

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post #15492 of 15787 Old 12-13-2014, 09:22 AM
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Okay now I have another stupid question (and I'm still hoping someone will answer my first stupid question from a few posts back), what is the sub distance tweak? I thought I knew but I don't think I do.
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post #15493 of 15787 Old 12-13-2014, 09:39 AM
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After getting the UMIK, running REW, moving my two XV15s all over the room, running Audyssey and REW again and then moving the subs some more and then running Audyssey and REW again and then moving my subs again and…. well you get the idea.

I feel like I've been living the theme of Edge of Tomorrow AKA Live, Die, Repeat except with me the theme goes Move sub, Run Audyssey and REW, Ask stupid question… then repeat.

But through it all I have to say that REW has been a great experience. I have learned a great deal in the past week (and still have much more to learn). But I want to say to anyone on the fence that I agree with Basshead and Brian and everyone else who says that you just don't know what's going on in your room until you use REW to see what's happening. It's a lot of work moving subs around but what's the point of blindly sticking a $900 sub in a corner and trusting dumb luck that it's a good place for it? For the price of a UMIK you can really learn a lot of valuable info.

I also want to say thanks again to all the guys that have been helping me out with this little adventure I really appreciate it.
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post #15494 of 15787 Old 12-13-2014, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
After getting the UMIK, running REW, moving my two XV15s all over the room, running Audyssey and REW again and then moving the subs some more and then running Audyssey and REW again and then moving my subs again and…. well you get the idea.

I feel like I've been living the theme of Edge of Tomorrow AKA Live, Die, Repeat except with me the theme goes Move sub, Run Audyssey and REW, Ask stupid question… then repeat.

But through it all I have to say that REW has been a great experience. I have learned a great deal in the past week (and still have much more to learn). But I want to say to anyone on the fence that I agree with Basshead and Brian and everyone else who says that you just don't know what's going on in your room until you use REW to see what's happening. It's a lot of work moving subs around but what's the point of blindly sticking a $900 sub in a corner and trusting dumb luck that it's a good place for it? For the price of a UMIK you can really learn a lot of valuable info.

I also want to say thanks again to all the guys that have been helping me out with this little adventure I really appreciate it.

I agree, and I did that probably a dozen times and I still get about a 12-15db dip in the 60-80Hz range. But have been able to make things better. The weird thing is I still get the dip, but the impact was better on my XS30s when I pulled them about a foot off the wall. If I get enough energy this weekend I am thinking about trying them in opposite corners of the room again now that I know the 12 inch fix. It's just moving XS 30s around the room is work. :-)
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post #15495 of 15787 Old 12-13-2014, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
After getting the UMIK, running REW, moving my two XV15s all over the room, running Audyssey and REW again and then moving the subs some more and then running Audyssey and REW again and then moving my subs again and…. well you get the idea.

I feel like I've been living the theme of Edge of Tomorrow AKA Live, Die, Repeat except with me the theme goes Move sub, Run Audyssey and REW, Ask stupid question… then repeat.

But through it all I have to say that REW has been a great experience. I have learned a great deal in the past week (and still have much more to learn). But I want to say to anyone on the fence that I agree with Basshead and Brian and everyone else who says that you just don't know what's going on in your room until you use REW to see what's happening. It's a lot of work moving subs around but what's the point of blindly sticking a $900 sub in a corner and trusting dumb luck that it's a good place for it? For the price of a UMIK you can really learn a lot of valuable info.

I also want to say thanks again to all the guys that have been helping me out with this little adventure I really appreciate it.
Ah yes I remember those days...It was literally a 2-3week event for me moving, measuring, tweaking...rinse and repeat. However it is very rewarding to know that you have extracted all the performance out of your subs once you are done. Then you can start kicking back and enjoying movies and music without the "what if" in the back of your head. If more people here put in the effort they would not have the upgrade bug biting them all the time.
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post #15496 of 15787 Old 12-13-2014, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by LowellG View Post
I agree, and I did that probably a dozen times and I still get about a 12-15db dip in the 60-80Hz range. But have been able to make things better. The weird thing is I still get the dip, but the impact was better on my XS30s when I pulled them about a foot off the wall. If I get enough energy this weekend I am thinking about trying them in opposite corners of the room again now that I know the 12 inch fix. It's just moving XS 30s around the room is work. :-)
Well it takes time to sort things out in acoustically challenged rooms. you just admitted you have not yet exhausted all of your placement options so you still have work to do my friend. Keep working at it and you will find the sweet spot.
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post #15497 of 15787 Old 12-13-2014, 11:39 AM
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would it help with reducing (not eliminating obviously)bass resonating through the house by decouplig it from the concrete foundation?
Yes, that is why you go for dual opposed design so there will be no vibration.

Elevating the subwoofer can have other benefits. There is a reason why high end floor standers have the woofers mounted on high.
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post #15498 of 15787 Old 12-13-2014, 12:29 PM
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Yes, that is why you go for dual opposed design so there will be no vibration.

Elevating the subwoofer can have other benefits. There is a reason why high end floor standers have the woofers mounted on high.

Funny you should mention elevation. I just changed my front end yet again. I took my mains off my XS30s, I was using them as speaker stands. I moved them in to the 1/4 and 3/4 wall mark recommendation for dual subs. Then I tried the XS30s with and without Auralex SubDudes. I didn't measure, but the low end improved on the SubDudes. I could feel in in the Star Wars E1 Pod racers scenes, Flight of the Phoenix rollover and thunder rumble in the Atmos Amaze demo. The gun shot in Taken are about the same.

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post #15499 of 15787 Old 12-13-2014, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
After getting the UMIK, running REW, moving my two XV15s all over the room, running Audyssey and REW again and then moving the subs some more and then running Audyssey and REW again and then moving my subs again and…. well you get the idea.

I feel like I've been living the theme of Edge of Tomorrow AKA Live, Die, Repeat except with me the theme goes Move sub, Run Audyssey and REW, Ask stupid question… then repeat.

But through it all I have to say that REW has been a great experience. I have learned a great deal in the past week (and still have much more to learn). But I want to say to anyone on the fence that I agree with Basshead and Brian and everyone else who says that you just don't know what's going on in your room until you use REW to see what's happening. It's a lot of work moving subs around but what's the point of blindly sticking a $900 sub in a corner and trusting dumb luck that it's a good place for it? For the price of a UMIK you can really learn a lot of valuable info.

I also want to say thanks again to all the guys that have been helping me out with this little adventure I really appreciate it.

Keep at it. That's part of the fun imho is to be able to tweak and get the best out of your setup. I find it funny for those who refuse to buy a 100$ mic to get the most out of their subs. Once you get a flat response you can play with house curves and other fun stuff. Makes movie experience so much more enjoyable

It's dauting at first. But easy once you get the hang of it

Keep asking questions. Cause that's how we all learned
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post #15500 of 15787 Old 12-13-2014, 01:34 PM
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Well it takes time to sort things out in acoustically challenged rooms. you just admitted you have not yet exhausted all of your placement options so you still have work to do my friend. Keep working at it and you will find the sweet spot.

I agree, but how much is enough. The wife has a short fuse and it doesn't take much play time before she starts calling me OCD.
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post #15501 of 15787 Old 12-13-2014, 01:51 PM
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Okay now I have another stupid question (and I'm still hoping someone will answer my first stupid question from a few posts back), what is the sub distance tweak? I thought I knew but I don't think I do.
I was wondering this too.

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post #15502 of 15787 Old 12-13-2014, 05:06 PM
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I agree, but how much is enough. The wife has a short fuse and it doesn't take much play time before she starts calling me OCD.
That is up to you to decide...Imo If the response is not right then keep at it until its right. what is the point of having 2k worth of subs if they are not dialed in? Like I already said, I put in a lot of time dialing in my subs. Wife thought I was nuts too but I was not going to stop until it was right.
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post #15503 of 15787 Old 12-13-2014, 05:24 PM
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That is up to you to decide...Imo If the response is not right then keep at it until its right. what is the point of having 2k worth of subs if they are not dialed in? Like I already said, I put in a lot of time dialing in my subs. Wife thought I was nuts too but I was not going to stop until it was right.

Joe you were pretty limited with your placement options though weren't you? I mean once you went with three you kind of had to have then nearfield at the end of your couches and in the corner between your love seat and couch right?
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post #15504 of 15787 Old 12-13-2014, 05:41 PM
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Okay now I have another stupid question (and I'm still hoping someone will answer my first stupid question from a few posts back), what is the sub distance tweak? I thought I knew but I don't think I do.
Read through this pdf.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Oct%202013.pdf
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post #15505 of 15787 Old 12-13-2014, 06:56 PM
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I agree, and I did that probably a dozen times and I still get about a 12-15db dip in the 60-80Hz range. But have been able to make things better. The weird thing is I still get the dip, but the impact was better on my XS30s when I pulled them about a foot off the wall. If I get enough energy this weekend I am thinking about trying them in opposite corners of the room again now that I know the 12 inch fix. It's just moving XS 30s around the room is work. :-)
Hew Lowell, what I did was buy those 2.5" round sliders with a tiny metal washer in the center, the machine screw that threads into the base of the XS30 with the rubber feet is a #10 24 screw, buy the sliders and about 8 # 10 24 machine screws and put the screw through the slider and the rubber foot and screw them into the base of the cabinet, just tight enough not to bend the slider, you can move the XS30 with one hand on carpet, plus it gives tou some added height to hide cables under the sub. I have 2" wooden dowel feet that I attached with the # 10 24 screws and a 2" slider like the 2.5" one I reco'd above, Really helps to get the sub up a bit and easy to move. If you want to make the smaller feet that adds 2" of height to the XS30 you can buy a solid oak rolling pin on Amazon without handles for $19 and cut them to any length you want and attach the round sliders with the #24 screws, Jim said don't worry about hitting anything by using a longer screw uo into the base of the XS30 as I've used 3.5-4" #24 s. Hope this helps.
Cheers Jeff.

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post #15506 of 15787 Old 12-13-2014, 07:01 PM
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That is up to you to decide...Imo If the response is not right then keep at it until its right. what is the point of having 2k worth of subs if they are not dialed in? Like I already said, I put in a lot of time dialing in my subs. Wife thought I was nuts too but I was not going to stop until it was right.
Hey Bass is using the HDMI method the best way to use the REW program, I'm having trouble with the ASIO drivers on my new 8.1 laptop, first I don't understand the operating system and don't know how to even use the new laptop, everything is different from what I'm used to. I have two Windows Vista PCs right here that I can just use too, I just wanted to try this new laptop, I didn't buy it to look at it.
Cheers Jeff

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post #15507 of 15787 Old 12-13-2014, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Ah yes I remember those days...It was literally a 2-3week event for me moving, measuring, tweaking...rinse and repeat. However it is very rewarding to know that you have extracted all the performance out of your subs once you are done. Then you can start kicking back and enjoying movies and music without the "what if" in the back of your head. If more people here put in the effort they would not have the upgrade bug biting them all the time.
So I generally agree that we should thoroughly understand and calibrate their gear to get the most out of it. I do have a bit of a rebuttal though... When you are limited in placement options (as I am) then the whole sub crawl and max output at MLP kind of goes out the window. Also, if you are in that situation then doesn't REW become pointless as Audessey and MCACC will do sub EQing for you?

I only ask because of my situation... I have a pretty large room but beause of the design the three couches that I have really cannot be moved. As a result I use my PSA XV15 as an end table for between two of the couches and I intend to get another XV15(se) for the other end of that couch to double as the end table. Now, what benefit is doing anything besides just EQing the subs as there is absolutely no other feasible place that I can put the two subs without WAF going out the window? The whole sub crawl expedition sounds great... until you find that the best place for it is in the middle of the living room in the way... what's the point then?

Living room theater set-up:  
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1124-K.
Speakers/Sub: (4) NHT Classic Two and an NHT TwoC center + PSA-XV15 subwoofer.
HTPC: z97 mobo, 16GB mem, i5-4440, SSD+HD, LG BD drive, Win 8.1 pro w/WMC + MB3.
Content sources: OTA Winegard HD7698P, Amazon Fire TV Stick, Netflix etc.
HDTV: Sharp LC-60SQ15U (ehhh).
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post #15508 of 15787 Old 12-13-2014, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by jhughy2010 View Post
So I generally agree that we should thoroughly understand and calibrate their gear to get the most out of it. I do have a bit of a rebuttal though... When you are limited in placement options (as I am) then the whole sub crawl and max output at MLP kind of goes out the window. Also, if you are in that situation then doesn't REW become pointless as Audessey and MCACC will do sub EQing for you?

I only ask because of my situation... I have a pretty large room but beause of the design the three couches that I have really cannot be moved. As a result I use my PSA XV15 as an end table for between two of the couches and I intend to get another XV15(se) for the other end of that couch to double as the end table. Now, what benefit is doing anything besides just EQing the subs as there is absolutely no other feasible place that I can put the two subs without WAF going out the window? The whole sub crawl expedition sounds great... until you find that the best place for it is in the middle of the living room in the way... what's the point then?
It is not pointless. You can still do the sub distance tweak and make pretty big changes to the frequency response around the crossover. Audyssey usually doesn't get this right.
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post #15509 of 15787 Old 12-13-2014, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
It is not pointless. You can still do the sub distance tweak and make pretty big changes to the frequency response around the crossover. Audyssey usually doesn't get this right.
Ok that makes sense. So only REW would be the way to properly calibrate these tweaks? When I get the additional XV15se I was going to use my Pioneer's MCACC (the 1124-k has a sub EQ that I have been interested in using).

Living room theater set-up:  
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1124-K.
Speakers/Sub: (4) NHT Classic Two and an NHT TwoC center + PSA-XV15 subwoofer.
HTPC: z97 mobo, 16GB mem, i5-4440, SSD+HD, LG BD drive, Win 8.1 pro w/WMC + MB3.
Content sources: OTA Winegard HD7698P, Amazon Fire TV Stick, Netflix etc.
HDTV: Sharp LC-60SQ15U (ehhh).
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post #15510 of 15787 Old 12-13-2014, 07:37 PM
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Right, REW or omnimic
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