Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 524 - AVS Forum
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post #15691 of 15717 Unread Yesterday, 10:31 AM
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OK, with just a quick listen, I think they are sounding better without the DSP.

I seem to have more tactile feedback and even more headroom (will do some compression sweeps in a bit).

But just for a quick test I threw in EOT and was able to hit 118db on the opening bass sweep at reference. This is with the subs 5db hot. I believe this sweep is supposed to hit 115db IIRC, so maybe my subs are only 3db hot.

Absolutely no sign of distortion or the subs running out of steam....soooo happy right now!
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post #15692 of 15717 Unread Yesterday, 10:35 AM
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What I would do is set your horizontal limit to 5 and 250hz (Your subs can go alot lower than 20hz shown on your graph). You then place your cursor at each of the frequency you want to know for distortion, then look at the 2nd, 3rd harmonic, THD, etc... down below your graph. Post that graph with cursor and legend. The lower frequency you select, the more likely distortion rises. You said you had it parked at 22Hz. I would go much lower to see the lowest Hz your subs can play along with seeing the output they produce without distortion. Run sweeps with Aud ON.

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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Let me know how you guys interpret these...since that last sweep is averaging around 117db and the LFE channel is 10db hot, does that mean I'm good to only 107db?
Not sure why you said that. If you have 117db with Subs 10db hot, then you are good to 117db.
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post #15693 of 15717 Unread Yesterday, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red99 View Post
It sounds good I guess but I have nothing to compare it too. I was expecting a little better extension. I don't like how it drops off like a rock off a cliff as soon as it passes 20 Hz. I wish I knew how to get that dip out or what is causing it. My room is so open I dont know if room treatments would do anything.
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Not sure I would not worry about it...enjoy your subs and do not obsess over graphs. Your subs will very rarely play anything below 20hz anyways, unless you keep a demo disk on hand or you play bass music that have a lot of sub 20hz content.
Red this is the exact same problem I ran into. I found the best place for my subs and even moved the MLP a little forward which helped a bit with the lower end but I still drop off after 20Hz.

My options to fix this are
1.Move the MLP forward to a point that looks ridiculous (This option is free)
2. Buy a third XV15 (a $900 option)
3. Buy a minidsp and bring up the lower end a little and smooth out a hump (a $105 option)

I plan on going with option number three. But I agree 100% with what basshead said, don't stress over the graphs to the point that you're not enjoying your subs and the material below 20Hz is out there but there's not a ton of it.
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post #15694 of 15717 Unread Yesterday, 11:31 AM
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Hey guys I just wanted to share that I tested the new placement of the subs the other night with one of my favorite LFE scenes (the rocket launch from Ender's Game) and the difference between the way my setup played that before and how it plays it now is radically different.

I'm now getting much more tactile feel even though I'm on a concrete slab and the house was rattling everywhere; to the point that as I was doing this my wife came running down the stairs and asked me what I was doing. I casually responded I was testing the subwoofers. I asked her what she thought and she said: "I would say you're testing the structural integrity of the house". I should note, this is the first time my wife has very come down stairs to ask me what I was doing.

My guess as to why they seem to be shaking the house more is because both subs are corner loaded now. One in front and one in back and they are positioned in opposite corners from one another. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

My graphs tell me I'm getting the content I was missing before and my rattling house confirms that things are much better now. Anyway, I still have some work to do but things are really moving in the right direction.
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post #15695 of 15717 Unread Yesterday, 11:34 AM
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anyone have a thought of putting my two xs30's on each side wall halfway up the wall? about 3 ft from MLP?

im gonna play with placement today I think...Ill report back

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post #15696 of 15717 Unread Yesterday, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
What I would do is set your horizontal limit to 5 and 250hz (Your subs can go alot lower than 20hz shown on your graph). You then place your cursor at each of the frequency you want to know for distortion, then look at the 2nd, 3rd harmonic, THD, etc... down below your graph. Post that graph with cursor and legend. The lower frequency you select, the more likely distortion rises. You said you had it parked at 22Hz. I would go much lower to see the lowest Hz your subs can play along with seeing the output they produce without distortion. Run sweeps with Aud ON.


Not sure why you said that. If you have 117db with Subs 10db hot, then you are good to 117db.
I said that because when you output to CH4 (LFE) with REW, it's 10db louder than all the other channels. Is my thinking wrong here?



Anyways, new compression sweeps! Audyssey on, MV0.

I got it to compress at -5 measurement level. Mostly down low though.




And here is the distortion....looks pretty ugly to me when the level gets up there, but you let me know.















Check out what EOT at reference is doing to my wall clock! It's actually turning back time!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzyu...ature=youtu.be
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post #15697 of 15717 Unread Yesterday, 12:46 PM
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Hahah that awesome!
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post #15698 of 15717 Unread Yesterday, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I said that because when you output to CH4 (LFE) with REW, it's 10db louder than all the other channels. Is my thinking wrong here?
Correct. Your concern was...?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Anyways, new compression sweeps! Audyssey on, MV0.

I got it to compress at -5 measurement level. Mostly down low though.

I cannot see those numbers below on those distortion graphs. They are blurry. Can you increase the image width when capturing? Can you post both Aud ON and OFF FR graph. As you and I know from reading the other thread, your XT AVR does not do anything for subs. You are still -5db from 30 to 20Hz, -10db from 20 to 12Hz, and -15db from 30 to 12Hz

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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Check out what EOT at reference is doing to my wall clock! It's actually turning back time!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzyu...ature=youtu.be
That is insane

Last edited by tvuong; Yesterday at 01:18 PM.
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post #15699 of 15717 Unread Yesterday, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Red this is the exact same problem I ran into. I found the best place for my subs and even moved the MLP a little forward which helped a bit with the lower end but I still drop off after 20Hz.

My options to fix this are
1.Move the MLP forward to a point that looks ridiculous (This option is free)
2. Buy a third XV15 (a $900 option)
3. Buy a minidsp and bring up the lower end a little and smooth out a hump (a $105 option)

I plan on going with option number three. But I agree 100% with what basshead said, don't stress over the graphs to the point that you're not enjoying your subs and the material below 20Hz is out there but there's not a ton of it.
Glad that you are happier now. Option 2 does not provide better exention. You will definitely get more headroom. FR may or may not be better.
Option 3 is the cheapest but be careful boosting down low as it eats up headroom quickly. As folks often say 'There is no free lunch'
There are actually lots of movies with content at 20Hz and below. IMO, I would shoot for 16Hz with useful output at the minimum. I played with this by setting a highpass at 20Hz and at 14Hz while watching a movie clip. The difference is substantial.
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post #15700 of 15717 Unread Yesterday, 01:56 PM
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Is the return frame for PSA 30 days from the day it's ordered, shipped, or delivered?
And the 30 day the day it's shipped or delivered back at PSA?
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post #15701 of 15717 Unread Yesterday, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Correct. Your concern was...?
Heck, I dunno. Guess I'm over thinking it.

Quote:
I cannot see those numbers below on those distortion graphs. They are blurry. Can you increase the image width when capturing?
Is this better?



Quote:
Can you post both Aud ON and OFF FR graph. As you and I know from reading the other thread, your XT AVR does not do anything for subs.
Well, it does something just not much. You want compression graphs with Audyssey off? I already did that a few posts ago. Or are you saying you want overlayed?? If so, here that is:



Quote:
You are still -5db from 30 to 20Hz, -10db from 20 to 12Hz, and -15db from 30 to 12Hz
Are you saying this is a good thing or a bad thing? Earlier (yesterday) when I was using the MiniDSP to boost the low end (actually bringing down the middle and boosting overall) it didn't sound as good as it does now. Now it just sounds incredible.
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post #15702 of 15717 Unread Yesterday, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Check out what EOT at reference is doing to my wall clock! It's actually turning back time!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzyu...ature=youtu.be

LOL! Now that is some powerful bass, you actually discovered the secret to turning back time.

Hey Alan, send me back to 1985 please. It was my senior year in high school and I had a blast that year.
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post #15703 of 15717 Unread Yesterday, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
anyone have a thought of putting my two xs30's on each side wall halfway up the wall? about 3 ft from MLP?

im gonna play with placement today I think...Ill report back
Yeah Brian I would be very interested in your findings. I've read that the mid point on the side walls is supposed to be one of the "go to" places to set your subs. However when I recently tried that my graphs sucked so it doesn't hold true in my room.
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post #15704 of 15717 Unread Yesterday, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Is this better?

.
So much better. Can you repost those distortion graphs with this resolution? Try with your cursors at 20, 14, 12, 10, 7Hz and post those graphs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Well, it does something just not much. You want compression graphs with Audyssey off? I already did that a few posts ago. Or are you saying you want overlayed?? If so, here that is:

.
This is what I was looking for. XT does so little on yours and nothing down low.

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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Are you saying this is a good thing or a bad thing? Earlier (yesterday) when I was using the MiniDSP to boost the low end (actually bringing down the middle and boosting overall) it didn't sound as good as it does now. Now it just sounds incredible.
It is just not as flat as it could possibly be but how they sound is more important.
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post #15705 of 15717 Unread Yesterday, 02:51 PM
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here it is with the new placement...mid you I dont even have walls lol...this is by far my best response for flatness...but not so good for extension (will get much better when i enclose the room:
no smoothing


two responses just t show what audyssey did and the slight adding of 2 filters for dsp

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post #15706 of 15717 Unread Yesterday, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
So much better. Can you repost those distortion graphs with this resolution? Try with your cursors at 20, 14, 12, 10, 7Hz and post those graphs.

This is what I was looking for. XT does so little on yours and nothing down low.


It is just not as flat as it could possibly be but how they sound is more important.
How about I just give you the MDAT.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/owujuape3b...%202.mdat?dl=0
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post #15707 of 15717 Unread Yesterday, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
I agree Brian, but 1/12 smooth does not really hide anything...1/6,1/3, 1/1 smoothing tends to hide dips and peaks though.
I agree with basshead, don't think 1/12th smoothing is really hiding much of anything -and PSA uses it on a lot of their graphs so I followed suit. Sorry if this was bad practice on the forum!

See below for the response without smoothly applied -subs are +3 hot in below graph.

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post #15708 of 15717 Unread Yesterday, 04:43 PM
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I agree with basshead, don't think 1/12th smoothing is really hiding much of anything -and PSA uses it on a lot of their graphs so I followed suit. Sorry if this was bad practice on the forum!

See below for the response without smoothly applied -subs are +3 hot in below graph.

You are good...Mark Seaton has even mentioned in the past 1/12 smoothing is fine. Generally no smoothing is you want for measuring subs, but I actually think 1/12 makes the graph a bit easier to read without masking any problem area.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
here it is with the new placement...mid you I dont even have walls lol...this is by far my best response for flatness...but not so good for extension (will get much better when i enclose the room:
no smoothing


two responses just t show what audyssey did and the slight adding of 2 filters for dsp

Looks like the extension on my subs.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Hey guys I just wanted to share that I tested the new placement of the subs the other night with one of my favorite LFE scenes (the rocket launch from Ender's Game) and the difference between the way my setup played that before and how it plays it now is radically different.

I'm now getting much more tactile feel even though I'm on a concrete slab and the house was rattling everywhere; to the point that as I was doing this my wife came running down the stairs and asked me what I was doing. I casually responded I was testing the subwoofers. I asked her what she thought and she said: "I would say you're testing the structural integrity of the house". I should note, this is the first time my wife has very come down stairs to ask me what I was doing.

My guess as to why they seem to be shaking the house more is because both subs are corner loaded now. One in front and one in back and they are positioned in opposite corners from one another. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

My graphs tell me I'm getting the content I was missing before and my rattling house confirms that things are much better now. Anyway, I still have some work to do but things are really moving in the right direction.
love enders game....that scene in particular. the first time i watched that was when i only had one xv15 running hot. i was totally surprised by that launch for sure. very cool and very surprising.

now that i have dual xv's, i actually found that my best overall response is with them corner loaded in opposite corners as well. cross corners too, not FR/LR, or RR/LR.....FL/RR quite actually is where mine work best. these are the two most "closed" corners so to speak....meaning no opening nearby. sounds awesome that way.
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post #15711 of 15717 Unread Yesterday, 06:27 PM
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OK, is this normal? I was playing around doing more placements and measurements trying to smooth out my extension on these XS15se's, and I turned audessy on and my graph got this big boost in SPL and a sloped FR.
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^^^

This is Audyssey on vs. off, all other settings the same (including MV)??

If so, that is strange.......
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^^ look like two graphs were measured with different volume level to me.
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that is probably with dynamic eq on...
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Didn't touch the volume. If it was the volume the lines would run parallel to each other. This Marantz is new so maybe I am doing something wrong. I pushed a button on front panel that says Direct, and the Audessy light goes off.


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I think I figured it out! Dynamic Volume was on.


SOUND: Marantz AV-7702 Pre/Pro, McIntosh MC1706 Amp,
Klipsch RF7-II's, Klipsch RC64-II (Soon), Klipsch RS62-II (Soon), (2) XS15se subs.

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Quote:
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Looks like the extension on my subs.
I was +\- 3.5 to 10hz in my old house. But with no boundary gain in the new house yet I only get that to about 15hz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digler84 View Post
love enders game....that scene in particular. the first time i watched that was when i only had one xv15 running hot. i was totally surprised by that launch for sure. very cool and very surprising.

now that i have dual xv's, i actually found that my best overall response is with them corner loaded in opposite corners as well. cross corners too, not FR/LR, or RR/LR.....FL/RR quite actually is where mine work best. these are the two most "closed" corners so to speak....meaning no opening nearby. sounds awesome that way.
Yep, that's exactly the way I have mine set up as well…. FL/RR.
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