Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 529 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #15841 of 16700 Old 12-23-2014, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
What you will find is the same amount of headroom will still show up above 30hz, but the difference is the boosted graph will show a bunch of compression on the low end below 30hz, where the un-boosted graph would not show any compression. The ideal setup is to have a system that will meet you output needs with no compression. So lets say if you have a sub system that will hit a max burst out put level of 115db above 30hz and 105db @ 16hz with no eq. Take the 16hz and boost it 10db, more then likely you will start seeing signs of compression once you get above 105db. By 115db the subs will be fully compressing on the low end, but yes they will still maintain a clean 115db above 30hz. the problem with this setup is, you could be watching a movie at reference and all of a sudden a scene calls for a 16-20hz sine wave and now your subs are fully compressing and sounding like ass out of nowhere. Why would you want that? To me it makes more sense to set the subs so they will play back cleanly at the required levels. If that means leaving a 10db drop from 30-16hz in the response then so be it...it will sound better that way. If you want a flat response down to 16hz then more subwoofage is needed to meet the power and excursion requirements to produce that amount of output.


I think the biggest misconception here at AVS is thinking you need to be "flat " to X frequency. Being flat from 16-100hz at 100db is a entire different ballgame then being flat from 16-100hz @ 115db(reference level). Folks tend to get hung up on thinking a system will not sound good unless you are +/-3db from X to X frequency...and that is simply not the truth at all. the point with rew is to help aid in maximizing your sub systems potential. The key is to make sure you have no big peaks or dips in the response. So do not get hung up on a graph because it is not ruler flat. I would not get worried if you have a dip in the 18-20hz area(RED)...boosting that spot will do more harm then good imo. I am speaking from personal experience spending several hours tweaking with a mini dsp. I have eq'd my subs to the point where they show a razor flat graph from 15-100hz and to be honest I prefer how they sound with no eq and dealing with a natural roll off starting around 23hz. the biggest improvement was placing the subs correctly and getting them time aligned so they were in phase at crossover with no major peaks or dips.


Keep in mind I am by no means a expert... just sharing my thoughts from trial and error using REW and a Mini DSP over the last 1.5yrs.
Well then you have about 1.488751 more years of experience than me. Actually, I don't fully understand the hype of the FR below 20Hz since you are not suppose to hear it and only feel it. But it seems that a lot of people are wanting this, so I thought I should have it to. lol I dont know what it is, I just want it.


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post #15842 of 16700 Old 12-23-2014, 08:34 PM
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Lowell, do you have the REW Guide 101 downloaded? I would be lost if it wasn't for it. If you dont have it, maybe someone can send you the link. I don't know if I have it but its a great guide and will show you how to set-up, measure, do waterfall, etc..


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post #15843 of 16700 Old 12-23-2014, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red99 View Post
Well then you have about 1.488751 more years of experience than me. Actually, I don't fully understand the hype of the FR below 20Hz since you are not suppose to hear it and only feel it. But it seems that a lot of people are wanting this, so I thought I should have it to. lol I dont know what it is, I just want it.
In a space your size Red, it's gonna take a bunch of Benjamins to chase sub 20hz.....you willing to go down that route (i.e. T-18s)?

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post #15844 of 16700 Old 12-23-2014, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Red99 View Post
Lowell, do you have the REW Guide 101 downloaded? I would be lost if it wasn't for it. If you dont have it, maybe someone can send you the link. I don't know if I have it but its a great guide and will show you how to set-up, measure, do waterfall, etc..
I've given Lowell the link multiple times....still don't think he's read it.
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AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC64ii, SUR: Polk LS F/X x 4, SUB: PSA T-18 x 2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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Audyssey 101
Audyssey FAQ
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post #15845 of 16700 Old 12-23-2014, 08:52 PM
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Bass, I want to personally thank you for sharing your time, experience and thoughts about getting the best sound out of your subs, this is priceless just like mastercard, seriously, thank you. You too Alan.
Happy Holidays, Jeffrey
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post #15846 of 16700 Old 12-23-2014, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by LowellG View Post
OK, maybe they are not all on, what I am saying is I disable nothing in my speaker setup for 7.2 and don't unplug anything. I haven't checked to see if sound is coming out. I do know the center and main are on though unless I unplug them, but I am not pulling my SR8080s off the wall.

I have tried the sub distance tweak, everything but each sub independently. I adjust the distance for both subs at once. Audessey always sets them at the same distance too.
You really didn't do the sub distance tweak as the first step is to play with the distances between the subs. After Audyssey if sub A is set to 7 feet and sub B is set to 13 feet you need to keep sub A's distance constant and change sub B's distance relative to sub A up and down a foot at a time until you get the smoothest response. Then tweak in less that 1ft increments until the best distance is found. This is all done in the first step of the sub distance tweak with just both subs running.
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post #15847 of 16700 Old 12-23-2014, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Bass, I want to personally thank you for sharing your time, experience and thoughts about getting the best sound out of your subs, this is priceless just like mastercard, seriously, thank you. You too Alan.
Happy Holidays, Jeffrey
No problem Jeffery! Happy Holidays!!
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post #15848 of 16700 Old 12-23-2014, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
In a space your size Red, it's gonna take a bunch of Benjamins to chase sub 20hz.....you willing to go down that route (i.e. T-18s)?
Well it wont be Dual T-18's if I decide to venture deeper in the world of ULF. I may have to buy a table saw and a router. lol


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Klipsch RF7-II's, Klipsch RC64-II (Soon), Klipsch RS62-II (Soon), (2) XS15se subs.

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post #15849 of 16700 Old 12-23-2014, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I've given Lowell the link multiple times....still don't think he's read it.
Actually I do and did. As I have stated before, I need to understand what is linking to what. While the directions may be great for some, they are not perfect and if you do this as a part time hobby, it can be very frustrating.

Lowell


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post #15850 of 16700 Old 12-23-2014, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post
You really didn't do the sub distance tweak as the first step is to play with the distances between the subs. After Audyssey if sub A is set to 7 feet and sub B is set to 13 feet you need to keep sub A's distance constant and change sub B's distance relative to sub A up and down a foot at a time until you get the smoothest response. Then tweak in less that 1ft increments until the best distance is found. This is all done in the first step of the sub distance tweak with just both subs running.

Actually I did do it. Every time I calibrate with XT32 its sets both subs to the equal distance, basically because they are both in the front corners of the room so from the MLP, they are equal. Every time, they are right around 15 -16 feet; even though they are really closer to 13 feet. The latest measurement was 15.4. I then increment them both up or down and have gone as low as 6 feet and as high as 26 feet, (it won't let me go above that), 1 foot at a time. That's using and SPL every time checking the db level, not a quick procedure. However, I did say I needed to try one sub at a time since I have always adjusted both together. Also, I have been told and read multiple times that XT32 on the X4000 does a very good job since it calibrates both subs independently so there is usually not much adjusting to do. Sorry very frustrated with the whole process of trying to obtain a perfect graph. It's beginning to prohibit me from actually using and enjoying my toys. So I am about to give it a four letter word and say thank your very much.

Lowell


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post #15851 of 16700 Old 12-23-2014, 10:31 PM
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^^ Yes, XT32 subeqHT calibrates and set subs distance properly; however, it calibrates speakers and then sub(s) separately. When you listen, you listen to ALL speakers AND sub(s) together. When you perform the sub distance tweak, you measure your speaker and sub(s) interaction that is center and sub(s) or left plus right and sub(s) to smooth out the dip at xover point. You really need to see REW graphs when adjusting the sub distance. There is no way it can be accomplished by using a spl meter.
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post #15852 of 16700 Old 12-24-2014, 03:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LowellG View Post
Actually I did do it. Every time I calibrate with XT32 its sets both subs to the equal distance, basically because they are both in the front corners of the room so from the MLP, they are equal. Every time, they are right around 15 -16 feet; even though they are really closer to 13 feet. The latest measurement was 15.4. I then increment them both up or down and have gone as low as 6 feet and as high as 26 feet, (it won't let me go above that), 1 foot at a time. That's using and SPL every time checking the db level, not a quick procedure. However, I did say I needed to try one sub at a time since I have always adjusted both together. Also, I have been told and read multiple times that XT32 on the X4000 does a very good job since it calibrates both subs independently so there is usually not much adjusting to do. Sorry very frustrated with the whole process of trying to obtain a perfect graph. It's beginning to prohibit me from actually using and enjoying my toys. So I am about to give it a four letter word and say thank your very much.
I have multiple receivers with XT32 (denon 4520, Denon 4311 and Onkyo PR5509) and 95% of the time the full sub distance tweak procedure make a big difference. I think one time Audyssey XT32 actually got it right. Tvoung is correct that the sun distance tweak can only be done using REW or omnimic.

Maybe take a break from measuring for awhile and just enjoy your system over the holidays!!
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post #15853 of 16700 Old 12-24-2014, 09:14 AM
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Lowell....dude.

If you're gonna take the time to do it, do it right!

Since you don't seem to know how to change output channels in REW...and since you say you've performed the distance tweak with an SPL meter....I can only assume you haven't read the awesome step-by-step guide.

Do it right, it will make a difference in your graph around the crossover.

Here's the guide:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...Oct%202013.pdf

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Audyssey 101
Audyssey FAQ
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post #15854 of 16700 Old 12-24-2014, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Red99 View Post
Well it wont be Dual T-18's if I decide to venture deeper in the world of ULF. I may have to buy a table saw and a router. lol
There ya go!

Maybe you can build one similar to your new avatar....I think that just might do it for ya!

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC64ii, SUR: Polk LS F/X x 4, SUB: PSA T-18 x 2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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Audyssey FAQ
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post #15855 of 16700 Old 12-24-2014, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Bass, I want to personally thank you for sharing your time, experience and thoughts about getting the best sound out of your subs, this is priceless just like mastercard, seriously, thank you. You too Alan.
Happy Holidays, Jeffrey
You're welcome, Jeffrey!

Now...when are we finally gonna see some REW graphs so we can see the fruits of our labor??
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AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC64ii, SUR: Polk LS F/X x 4, SUB: PSA T-18 x 2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
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Audyssey FAQ
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post #15856 of 16700 Old 12-24-2014, 09:47 AM
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Hey guys

No REW graphs, just using Anthem's ARC quick measure plus trial and error for placement but I am getting the best output to date from my XS30.

First pic shows the room layout where the sub was in the corner as an end table for a long time. Output was OK but not great. Changed location of Display/Speaker area and pulled the sub about 2 feet further off the wall. Better output but not WAF compatible.



Next is after changing sofa location and getting the sub mid wall. Output is phenomenal at this point and it passes WAF as it is right between 2 windows and acts as a table. Right now its also a Christmas Tree stand



We watched Into The Storm last Sat night as the first movie test and it sounded as if the tornadoes were in the house!! Very nice. Also, the cat was in the dog bed at the beginning of the movie-he didnt stay too long

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post #15857 of 16700 Old 12-24-2014, 09:54 AM
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i think i'm in the ignorance is bliss camp myself. the technical side of me really wants to get umik and rew, but i know as soon as i do i will spend way too much time fiddling with things to try and get "perfection" instead of just watching movies and enjoying my system. could it be better? i suppose so. but right now, i feel every explosion, gunshot, and helicopter whirling and it shakes the very foundation of my house. that's fine for me, because i don't want to drive myself insane like lowell is doing right now. that's not an attack on lowell....just saying he's clearly frustrated.
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post #15858 of 16700 Old 12-24-2014, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by digler84 View Post
i think i'm in the ignorance is bliss camp myself. the technical side of me really wants to get umik and rew, but i know as soon as i do i will spend way too much time fiddling with things to try and get "perfection" instead of just watching movies and enjoying my system. could it be better? i suppose so. but right now, i feel every explosion, gunshot, and helicopter whirling and it shakes the very foundation of my house. that's fine for me, because i don't want to drive myself insane like lowell is doing right now. that's not an attack on lowell....just saying he's clearly frustrated.
LOL I'm in the same boat. It's kind of like when I started reading online about how to take night sky photography and then realized that camera lenses cost twice as much as my camera (or more). I'm going to sit and enjoy my subs. I really like what they do whether the response is flat or not.

Onkyo TX-NR3009 - Emotiva XPA-2 300 WPC - Polk Audio RTiA9 Mains - CSiA6 Center - F/XiA6 Surrounds - Dual PSA XV-15se Subwoofers - Epson 5030UB Projector - Monoprice Multi-format 106" HD Gray screen - Samsung BD-F5900 3D Bluray - WDTV Live HD Media Player with 6TB External Storage - Nintendo Wii - XBox 360 - Logitech Harmony One, and custom DIY media console...
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post #15859 of 16700 Old 12-24-2014, 11:05 AM
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yup....and i think my personality is like most on here too.....i can get VERY obsessive over the small details. and i think it would get to the point that i would no longer be enjoying things because i'm worried about some line on a graph. now, certainly, if i thought my output was lacking in some way, i would be more concerned with it...but as long as a michael bay bass drop can still put a smile on my face in my room, then i'm good. in my mind, my graph is straight as a ruler! the only thing that has a dip or hump is the smile on my face!
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post #15860 of 16700 Old 12-24-2014, 11:41 AM
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Michael Baysplosions!

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AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC64ii, SUR: Polk LS F/X x 4, SUB: PSA T-18 x 2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
--------------------------------------------------
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Audyssey 101
Audyssey FAQ
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post #15861 of 16700 Old 12-24-2014, 11:50 AM
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if we are going there....




i couldn't stop laughing....because much of it is absolutely true! lol
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post #15862 of 16700 Old 12-24-2014, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
There ya go!

Maybe you can build one similar to your new avatar....I think that just might do it for ya!
WHAT..... I cant hear you.....


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post #15863 of 16700 Old 12-24-2014, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Just wanted to pop in an wish everyone Merry Christmas / Happy holidays.
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post #15864 of 16700 Old 12-24-2014, 04:55 PM
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I wanted to wish everyone a very Merry Christmas, and sign off with some Christmas Music.

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post #15865 of 16700 Old 12-24-2014, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbreda View Post
Hey guys

No REW graphs, just using Anthem's ARC quick measure plus trial and error for placement but I am getting the best output to date from my XS30.

First pic shows the room layout where the sub was in the corner as an end table for a long time. Output was OK but not great. Changed location of Display/Speaker area and pulled the sub about 2 feet further off the wall. Better output but not WAF compatible.



Next is after changing sofa location and getting the sub mid wall. Output is phenomenal at this point and it passes WAF as it is right between 2 windows and acts as a table. Right now its also a Christmas Tree stand

We watched Into The Storm last Sat night as the first movie test and it sounded as if the tornadoes were in the house!! Very nice. Also, the cat was in the dog bed at the beginning of the movie-he didnt stay too long

I think it's the Christmas Tree that making your bass sound so much better. I've always said a nice Christmas Tree can fix anything.
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post #15866 of 16700 Old 12-24-2014, 06:00 PM
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Glad I'm not the only one that thinks that way ^^^^^. Sub crawl, experimenting with positions and setting levels via (YPAO....don't like it very much....reckon I will pick up an anthem to use as a pre to get ARC) and test tones and rat shack db meter and I am good!
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post #15867 of 16700 Old 12-24-2014, 06:08 PM
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Basshead your explanation of what happens when you boost the low frequencies was very helpful. I had been trying to remember what I had a few months ago about EQ-ing subs and I thought I remembered that I had read that bringing down humps is fine but boosting nulls can have a negative effect on headroom. Your recent post answered my questions before I had a chance to ask them, so thank you again for that education post.

But I am wondering, if I need to pull a hump down can that have a negative effect on anything?
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post #15868 of 16700 Old 12-24-2014, 06:12 PM
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I hope you all have a wonderful Christmas tomorrow. Maybe Santa will bring everyone a nice new set of T18's for being so good.
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post #15869 of 16700 Old 12-24-2014, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Basshead your explanation of what happens when you boost the low frequencies was very helpful. I had been trying to remember what I had a few months ago about EQ-ing subs and I thought I remembered that I had read that bringing down humps is fine but boosting nulls can have a negative effect on headroom. Your recent post answered my questions before I had a chance to ask them, so thank you again for that education post.

But I am wondering, if I need to pull a hump down can that have a negative effect on anything?
generally no, pulling a peak down will be ok long as it is not more then 6db or so. I would not try pulling a peak down 16db...I tried that and for some reason the sound quality goes to poop. perhaps all the ringing is still in the range where the massive peak was.
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post #15870 of 16700 Old 12-25-2014, 02:18 AM
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Merry christmas everyone!!!!!!!!!!!
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Equipment List: Benq W6000, Darbee DVP-5000 Video Processor, JKP Affinity 100 inch 16x9 .9 gain reference screen, Onkyo 818 receiver, 3-Marantz Ma700 and 2-Ma6100 mono blocks, 9.2 set-up, B&W Nautilus 805 front speakers, B&W Nautilus HTM2 center speaker, Infinity ( soon to be replaced by B&W ) bookshelf Height Speakers, Mirage HDT-R side speakers, Jamo THX surround one rear speakers, Dual PSA XS30se subs, Richard Grey, Monster Power, and Panamax powerline conditioning/surge protection.
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