Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 541 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #16201 of 32663 Old 01-11-2015, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by jsc79 View Post
I was actually just reading the webpage for the sounddoctor test cd.

Has anyone calibrated their system with this cd?

I would like to try it and forgo my room correction(Ypao)
Room correction software adjusts filters and other settings for the entire frequency response in your room, giving you a flatter response. The CD is simply a bunch of different tones and music. Save your money.
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post #16202 of 32663 Old 01-11-2015, 01:25 PM
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I've been reading all the responses on these last few pages and there is a lot of useful info here. @Allan you're absolutely right about defeating XOs on subwoofers, I have seen many people using the bass management in both their AVRs and sub amps and these people will continue to do so not matter what you say. @Ray I have to agree with you, no matter how capable your mains are crossing at 40Hz is completely defeating the reason for subs. That's just my opinion so please any one doing this please don't take offense. @James H ughes I was referring to the T-18 only with my calibration with the SPL meter and 0dB setting in AVR. Also in my opinion there is only one way to guarantee that you're getting maximum output from multiple subs is to actually gain match each sub no matter where they are placed in relation to the MLP. Another thought when doing a Audyssey calibration is to do a quick one sweep calibration to get a satisfactory sub level, there is no magic number but I like to get a result of about something like -5 to -10.

I think there was a tip here in this thread when starting the calibration Audy asks to set sub level to 75dB, I found out it's OK to go as high as 81-83dB to get a reading in the above -dB range. Like it was mentioned just putting the sub gain at 2 o'clock doesn't guarantee everything will be fine. @Hop thanks for that moving the mic a few inches right or left helped in getting a good FR and good bass. And to the OP, sorry can't remember your avatar, thanks for the tips with XT32 mic positions with full 8 point mic calibration, very useful.

@Red99 , if you're still in the return window do what Allan suggested and just get some giant vented subs or T-18s and blow your self up I love being blown up
Cheers Jeff
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post #16203 of 32663 Old 01-11-2015, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by climber07 View Post
Room correction software adjusts filters and other settings for the entire frequency response in your room, giving you a flatter response. The CD is simply a bunch of different tones and music. Save your money.
Actually you can even find these to download on itunes. I get a kick out of this YouTube using a a subwoofer Demo CD.


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post #16204 of 32663 Old 01-11-2015, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
@Red99 , if you're still in the return window do what Allan suggested and just get some giant vented subs or T-18s and blow your self up I love being blown up
Cheers Jeff
Tom is issuing me a RMA, even though I have had the subs probably 6 weeks. I felt guilty and offered to pay for the shipping back and he said he would cover it. Kudos for PSA for there excellent trial period. Thank you Tom.


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post #16205 of 32663 Old 01-11-2015, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Red99 View Post
Tom is issuing me a RMA, even though I have had the subs probably 6 weeks. I felt guilty and offered to pay for the shipping back and he said he would cover it. Kudos for PSA for there excellent trial period. Thank you Tom.
That's awesome. Do you know what you are getting next?
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post #16206 of 32663 Old 01-11-2015, 04:47 PM
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That's awesome. Do you know what you are getting next?
Im going to do a lot of researching now and take my time. At least now I have something to go by. That was my first subs, so it was a good learning experience for me. And, income tax return time is just around the corner.


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post #16207 of 32663 Old 01-11-2015, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Red99 View Post
Tom is issuing me a RMA, even though I have had the subs probably 6 weeks. I felt guilty and offered to pay for the shipping back and he said he would cover it. Kudos for PSA for there excellent trial period. Thank you Tom.
What are you getting?
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post #16208 of 32663 Old 01-11-2015, 05:52 PM
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I just picked up a second XV15se and I was hoping the participants in this thread could help me with a couple of questions.

Each sub is located up front, one is between the left tower and the center channel, the other is between the right tower and the center channel. This puts them an equal distance from my main listening position. Each is hooked to a y adapter on the single sub output on my receiver.

In order to set the gain, I used an SPL to gain match the subs, then ran audyssey until it gave me -9 on the sub level . I then turned up the sub level on the receiver to -3. Each time I turned up the gain knobs on the subs, I used the SPL to gain match, so both sub's gain knobs are still set identically.

To set the phase, I just left each sub at 0 and used the distance audyssey gave me. After I was finished with audyssey, I set all of the speakers to small, set the crossover for all of the speakers to 80hz and turned off audyssey.

Does what I did sound correct to those of you with multiple subs? In particular, is using the distance in the receiver the correct way to set phase for multiple subs? I assume it works, because in this case each sub is the same distance from the MLP, but it would be great if I could hear from others on the matter.

I also ran REW and attached my graph in case it tells anyone if I have my phase set correctly or not. I am new to REW, so I am not sure what kind of information one can gather from a graph.

Any suggestions for dialing in my subs are very welcome.
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post #16209 of 32663 Old 01-11-2015, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
I agree with you on the AVR sometimes being the problem. And sometimes it may be the room calibration system. Here's something I've recently discovered that some of you may find interesting. If you find you have weak bass in your room you may want to re-run Audyssey and modify your mic placements (just a little) and see if your bass doesn't improve. When I was looking for the best subwoofer placement in my room I ran Audyseey and took REW readings (about a million times) and I discovered that sometimes Audyssey just plan screws things up.

I discovered this when I moved my subs back to an exact same location as I had them earlier (a place where I knew I had decent bass) and when I finished running Audyssey the bass in the room was much worse then it had been before (I'm basing that on both my listening impressions and the REW graphs that confirmed what I was hearing). When I re-ran Audyssey without changing anything other than spreading my mic positions out a few inches, the bass improved dramatically. Way more than you would think it could improve with such a slight modification. So don't assume that your room calibration gets things right the first time.

I was using an Onkyo TXSR 805, upgraded to an 828 and added an Emotiva XPA 5 as well. I have ran Audyssey on both the 805 and 828 and it wasn't for me. I have always been old school with manual EQ'ing my gear. Sadly most of you could come over and run Audyssey and REW and probably blow me away, but I am satisfied thus far with it.
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post #16210 of 32663 Old 01-11-2015, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by bossdog304 View Post
I was using an Onkyo TXSR 805, upgraded to an 828 and added an Emotiva XPA 5 as well. I have ran Audyssey on both the 805 and 828 and it wasn't for me. I have always been old school with manual EQ'ing my gear. Sadly most of you could come over and run Audyssey and REW and probably blow me away, but I am satisfied thus far with it.
In the end, its all about what sounds good to your ears. Old School or New school. If you are happy, that's what counts.
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post #16211 of 32663 Old 01-11-2015, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by AVAB View Post
I just picked up a second XV15se and I was hoping the participants in this thread could help me with a couple of questions.

Each sub is located up front, one is between the left tower and the center channel, the other is between the right tower and the center channel. This puts them an equal distance from my main listening position. Each is hooked to a y adapter on the single sub output on my receiver.

In order to set the gain, I used an SPL to gain match the subs, then ran audyssey until it gave me -9 on the sub level . I then turned up the sub level on the receiver to -3. Each time I turned up the gain knobs on the subs, I used the SPL to gain match, so both sub's gain knobs are still set identically.

To set the phase, I just left each sub at 0 and used the distance audyssey gave me. After I was finished with audyssey, I set all of the speakers to small, set the crossover for all of the speakers to 80hz and turned off audyssey.

Does what I did sound correct to those of you with multiple subs? In particular, is using the distance in the receiver the correct way to set phase for multiple subs? I assume it works, because in this case each sub is the same distance from the MLP, but it would be great if I could hear from others on the matter.

I also ran REW and attached my graph in case it tells anyone if I have my phase set correctly or not. I am new to REW, so I am not sure what kind of information one can gather from a graph.

Any suggestions for dialing in my subs are very welcome.
Im not the one that should give you advice. So I will let someone with more experience chim in. But I do see that you are missing a lot important bass between about 45 Hz and 80 Hz.
I also played with the phase and found just leaving both subs at zero worked the best for me. Is that graph for both subs? Maybe post a measurment from about 10 or 15 Hz to about 150 Hz with each sub and another one together. Have you done the sub crawl? I wonder if moving one sub would cancel out that null or at least shorten it up some?


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post #16212 of 32663 Old 01-11-2015, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVAB View Post
I just picked up a second XV15se and I was hoping the participants in this thread could help me with a couple of questions.

Each sub is located up front, one is between the left tower and the center channel, the other is between the right tower and the center channel. This puts them an equal distance from my main listening position. Each is hooked to a y adapter on the single sub output on my receiver.

In order to set the gain, I used an SPL to gain match the subs, then ran audyssey until it gave me -9 on the sub level . I then turned up the sub level on the receiver to -3. Each time I turned up the gain knobs on the subs, I used the SPL to gain match, so both sub's gain knobs are still set identically.

To set the phase, I just left each sub at 0 and used the distance audyssey gave me. After I was finished with audyssey, I set all of the speakers to small, set the crossover for all of the speakers to 80hz and turned off audyssey.

Does what I did sound correct to those of you with multiple subs? In particular, is using the distance in the receiver the correct way to set phase for multiple subs? I assume it works, because in this case each sub is the same distance from the MLP, but it would be great if I could hear from others on the matter.

I also ran REW and attached my graph in case it tells anyone if I have my phase set correctly or not. I am new to REW, so I am not sure what kind of information one can gather from a graph.

Any suggestions for dialing in my subs are very welcome.
Please re-post your graph with the following limits:

Vertical - 55db to 105db (maybe 110hz since you seem to have measured at a very loud level)
Horizontal - 20hz to 300hz
No smoothing

This will let us see what's going on better.

With both subs equidistant to the MLP, you should not have to adjust phase at all. You may benefit from the sub distance tweak though.

Kind of hard to tell, but it looks like you could benefit from moving one of your subs to a diiferent location. You've got a very large null showing up in the bass region.

Can we see the Audyssey ON graph (with the same limits)?
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post #16213 of 32663 Old 01-11-2015, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Red99 View Post
If you are refering to THX refence level, then its 115 dB for the subs. I just looked it up today.

The low frequency effects channel is handled slightly differently and has a 10dB boost relative to the other channels. The maximum SPL that subwoofers could be asked to reproduce from the low frequency effects track is therefore 115dB at the listening position. In reality the situation is nearly always worse because the subwoofer must additionally reproduce bass managed* content from other channels. These challenges mean that multiple large subwoofers are typically needed to be able to properly reproduce the soundtrack as the director intended.
Yeah, I knew that (doh!)....sorry for the mis-information.
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post #16214 of 32663 Old 01-11-2015, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
What SPL level is that -3 point though?

Eight 6.5's don't even have the cone surface area of one 18 inch woofer everything else being equal (which it isn't - the 18's are high excursion).

I would still try a 60 and 80hz crossover just to see.

You are leaving a lot on the table crossing a triax at 40hz.
I totally agree with this and may be why he wasn't that impressed with the T-18.

Mine are currently crossed at 90hz and my mains have 15" woofers.
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post #16215 of 32663 Old 01-11-2015, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
I've been reading all the responses on these last few pages and there is a lot of useful info here. @Allan you're absolutely right about defeating XOs on subwoofers, .I have seen many people using the bass management in both their AVRs and sub amps and these people will continue to do so not matter what you say.[/COLOR] @Ray I have to agree with you, no matter how capable your mains are crossing at 40Hz is completely defeating the reason for subs. That's just my opinion so please any one doing this please don't take offense. @James H ughes I was referring to the T-18 only with my calibration with the SPL meter and 0dB setting in AVR. Also in my opinion there is only one way to guarantee that you're getting maximum output from multiple subs is to actually gain match each sub no matter where they are placed in relation to the MLP. Another thought when doing a Audyssey calibration is to do a quick one sweep calibration to get a satisfactory sub level, there is no magic number but I like to get a result of about something like -5 to -10.

I think there was a tip here in this thread when starting the calibration Audy asks to set sub level to 75dB, I found out it's OK to go as high as 81-83dB to get a reading in the above -dB range. Like it was mentioned just putting the sub gain at 2 o'clock doesn't guarantee everything will be fine. @Hop thanks for that moving the mic a few inches right or left helped in getting a good FR and good bass. And to the OP, sorry can't remember your avatar, thanks for the tips with XT32 mic positions with full 8 point mic calibration, very useful.

@Red99 , if you're still in the return window do what Allan suggested and just get some giant vented subs or T-18s and blow your self up I love being blown up
Cheers Jeff

By using 2 crossovers together one on the sub and one on the receiver/pre-amp it will net a loss of 6dbs.
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post #16216 of 32663 Old 01-11-2015, 08:48 PM
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No that is incorrect...using both the sub and avr crossover simply doubles up on the LPF slope.

Getting Started with REW: A Step by Step Guide -->http://www.roomeqwizard.com/REWhelp.pdf

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post #16217 of 32663 Old 01-12-2015, 03:08 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
No that is incorrect...using both the sub and avr crossover simply doubles up on the LPF slope.
Double up on the lpf slope ?
What's that mean
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post #16218 of 32663 Old 01-12-2015, 03:57 AM
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Here's what my buddy talked to Tom V. Yesterday about my setup. I tried calling but was busy he got ahold of him. But anyways here's what he thought I should do.
Set at 80hz in receiver
Xv30f set at 60 HZ
Phase at zero since both are equal distance from MLP
I gain matched all my subs
Xs30's near field left at 150 HZ
Phase at 180 degree
Turned xs30's off during calibration
Mcacc set my sub level at -5.5
Turned on xs30's after mcacc was complete
Sounds great
Maybe this way of setup is due to me running y adaptors to all subs ?

Last edited by JAMES MCHUGHES; 01-12-2015 at 06:33 AM.
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post #16219 of 32663 Old 01-12-2015, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by JAMES MCHUGHES View Post
Set at 80hz in receiver
Xv30f set at 60 HZ
unless you want to loose 60-120hz contents in the LFE channel.
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post #16220 of 32663 Old 01-12-2015, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by JAMES MCHUGHES View Post
Double up on the lpf slope ?
What's that mean
Utilizing both the Sub and AVR crossover which is commonly referred to as "cascading", doubles the amount of octave filtering above the cross point. If your AVR has a 24db per octave filter and the Sub has a 18db per octave, using both will net you a 42db per octave slope.
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post #16221 of 32663 Old 01-12-2015, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAMES MCHUGHES View Post
Double up on the lpf slope ?
What's that mean
Utilizing both the Sub and AVR crossover which is commonly referred to as "cascading", doubles the amount of octave filtering above the cross point. If your AVR has a 24db per octave filter and the Sub has a 18db per octave, using both will net you a 42db per octave slope.
Sorry but I'm still confused meaning is that a bad thing lol
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post #16222 of 32663 Old 01-12-2015, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by bossdog304 View Post
I was using an Onkyo TXSR 805, upgraded to an 828 and added an Emotiva XPA 5 as well. I have ran Audyssey on both the 805 and 828 and it wasn't for me. I have always been old school with manual EQ'ing my gear. Sadly most of you could come over and run Audyssey and REW and probably blow me away, but I am satisfied thus far with it.
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In the end, its all about what sounds good to your ears. Old School or New school. If you are happy, that's what counts.
Absolutely! In the end all that ever matters is that you like and enjoy the sound you are getting from your equipment. For all the money we put into this equipment we had better be happy when all is said and done. So whatever works for you is what you should do.
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post #16223 of 32663 Old 01-12-2015, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by JAMES MCHUGHES View Post
Here's what my buddy talked to Tom V. Yesterday about my setup. I tried calling but was busy he got ahold of him. But anyways here's what he thought I should do.
Set at 80hz in receiver
Xv30f set at 60 HZ
Phase at zero since both are equal distance from MLP
I gain matched all my subs
Xs30's near field left at 150 HZ
Phase at 180 degree
Turned xs30's off during calibration
Mcacc set my sub level at -5.5
Turned on xs30's after mcacc was complete
Sounds great
Maybe this way of setup is due to me running y adaptors to all subs ?
I'm quite surprised that Tom would recommend cascading crossovers....maybe it has something to do with mixing sealed and vented subs.

Anyways, if that's what Tom said and it sounds good to you...stick with it!


I still say you should get rid of 2 of the subs and go either sealed or vented.
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post #16224 of 32663 Old 01-12-2015, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAMES MCHUGHES View Post
Here's what my buddy talked to Tom V. Yesterday about my setup. I tried calling but was busy he got ahold of him. But anyways here's what he thought I should do.
Set at 80hz in receiver
Xv30f set at 60 HZ
Phase at zero since both are equal distance from MLP
I gain matched all my subs
Xs30's near field left at 150 HZ
Phase at 180 degree
Turned xs30's off during calibration
Mcacc set my sub level at -5.5
Turned on xs30's after mcacc was complete
Sounds great
Maybe this way of setup is due to me running y adaptors to all subs ?
I'm quite surprised that Tom would recommend cascading crossovers....maybe it has something to do with mixing sealed and vented subs.

Anyways, if that's what Tom said and it sounds good to you...stick with it!


I still say you should get rid of 2 of the subs and go either sealed or vented.
Yeah I hear ya but know I'm having second thoughts. I kinda like having the ported up front with the sealed near field especially the midbass the xs30's put out. I'm not so sure I wanna give up the extra out put the xv30f's have. Really I think they work well together but I guess I wouldn't know the difference unless I had all sealed in room together. Hopefully my buddy got the correct info from Tom V. I don't wanna say it came directly from Tom if maybe there was a miscommunication. I'm going to call Tom myself when I get a chance.
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post #16225 of 32663 Old 01-12-2015, 07:46 AM
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4 ported xv30f yikes. I need to keep my windows. It's cold out
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post #16226 of 32663 Old 01-12-2015, 07:47 AM
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Hey Guys,

So, I spent the afternoon over at my buddies place trying to integrate two of my old XS15s into his system (using my old AVR - Denon 2113ci). We did not have a good day.

His room is 24x14x7, sealed, with 2 rows of seating (having 2 rows is something I don't have experience with and it is proving to be a real bear to try and get smooth response in both rows with just 2 subs). The rear row is about 3' from rear wall and front row is about 8' from rear wall. The seating can be moved back (up to 3'), but not forward. We tried pretty much every possible location.

We tried both subs up front in the corners - sounded good in front row, rear row had overwhelming bass. Measured OK, but lost some extension.

One sub up front (F/Left corner), one in rear (R/Right corner) - measured awesome in front row (basically flat to 8hz). Sounded a bit weak in front row, better in rear row. But, we had no headroom at all, compressing at ~100db.

Tried both in rear corners - sounded good in front row, but rear row was waaaaayyy too much!

in the front row (where he sits all the time), they sounded best when in the front corners.



Any suggestions? My first thought is that the only thing that is going to solve his issues is more subs. I think for now he should keep them up front and not be pouring watts into the LFE to save headroom. He could even stack them and get 6db more without losing much in terms of coverage in the front row...the back is another story.

Do you think some bass traps would mellow out the exaggerated bass at the rear of the room at all?
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post #16227 of 32663 Old 01-12-2015, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAMES MCHUGHES View Post
Yeah I hear ya but know I'm having second thoughts. I kinda like having the ported up front with the sealed near field especially the midbass the xs30's put out. I'm not so sure I wanna give up the extra out put the xv30f's have. Really I think they work well together but I guess I wouldn't know the difference unless I had all sealed in room together. Hopefully my buddy got the correct info from Tom V. I don't wanna say it came directly from Tom if maybe there was a miscommunication. I'm going to call Tom myself when I get a chance.
Please, do that...then report back!
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post #16228 of 32663 Old 01-12-2015, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I'm quite surprised that Tom would recommend cascading crossovers....maybe it has something to do with mixing sealed and vented subs.

Anyways, if that's what Tom said and it sounds good to you...stick with it!


I still say you should get rid of 2 of the subs and go either sealed or vented.
Why? There is nothing wrong with cascading crossovers.

James, do you understand what the term "octave" means and do you understand how a crossover works?

A crossover is not a brick wall filter. Both high and low pass crossovers have a slope on how fast the output rolls off past the cross point. That is called octave slope and they normally range in 6,12,18,24, and 48db per octave...6 being the shallowest.

For example, set your crossover to 80hz with a 6db per octave slope, the sub will still play frequencies clear out to 320hz at only 12db down from 80hz which is clearly still audible. Now take a 80hz cross over with a 48db per octave slope and by 160hz the output would be down 48db compared to 80hz...which is inaudible.

Sometimes cascading crossovers to double up on the amount of db per octave filtering can help in situations where a sub is placed nearfield to help filter out upper end harmonics. This can help eliminate localization.
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post #16229 of 32663 Old 01-12-2015, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Hey Guys,

So, I spent the afternoon over at my buddies place trying to integrate two of my old XS15s into his system (using my old AVR - Denon 2113ci). We did not have a good day.

His room is 24x14x7, sealed, with 2 rows of seating (having 2 rows is something I don't have experience with and it is proving to be a real bear to try and get smooth response in both rows with just 2 subs). The rear row is about 3' from rear wall and front row is about 8' from rear wall. The seating can be moved back (up to 3'), but not forward. We tried pretty much every possible location.

We tried both subs up front in the corners - sounded good in front row, rear row had overwhelming bass. Measured OK, but lost some extension.

One sub up front (F/Left corner), one in rear (R/Right corner) - measured awesome in front row (basically flat to 8hz). Sounded a bit weak in front row, better in rear row. But, we had no headroom at all, compressing at ~100db.

Tried both in rear corners - sounded good in front row, but rear row was waaaaayyy too much!

in the front row (where he sits all the time), they sounded best when in the front corners.



Any suggestions? My first thought is that the only thing that is going to solve his issues is more subs. I think for now he should keep them up front and not be pouring watts into the LFE to save headroom. He could even stack them and get 6db more without losing much in terms of coverage in the front row...the back is another story.

Do you think some bass traps would mellow out the exaggerated bass at the rear of the room at all?
Simple, he should of bought all 4 of your subs...getting even bass in 2 rows of seating is no easy task with 1-2 subs.
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post #16230 of 32663 Old 01-12-2015, 07:59 AM
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Good info basshead, some stuff I never knew!

This is especially interesting to me:

Quote:
Sometimes cascading crossovers to double up on the amount of db per octave filtering can help in situations where a sub is placed nearfield to help filter out upper end harmonics. This can help eliminate localization.

But why do you think Tom recommended setting the subs crossover lower than his AVRs crossover in this case?
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