Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 544 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 01-13-2015, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I love the T-18s....after struggling with quad XS15s for almost 2 years, I don't know what to do with myself these days. I only spent a couple days integrating the T-18s and I got no reason to do more measurements/tweaking.....getting kinda bored.



I guess I'm down -3db from reference (115db) at about 18-19hz. Still sounds really, really good to me.


Couple things,

Sweeps will tend to read anywhere from 3-6dB lower than burst capabilities in this context. Burst capabilities are really what we want to use when predicting how a subwoofer will react with transient material like music and film.

"Reference Level" will almost never require >115dB from a properly calibrated subwoofer system. This is especially true <20hz sine there will be no summation from the rest of the channels unless the mixer out strong 3hz to 20hz signal on them for some very odd reason.

Just based on your curves and my experience when measuring sweeps versus bursts I bet you are "reference capable" down to 10hz at least, maybe 5-7hz. (assuming correct system calibration of course).


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Old 01-13-2015, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post





I guess I'm down -3db from reference (115db) at about 18-19hz. Still sounds really, really good to me.

Actually it looks like your half a dB away from reference at 20hz, but now we're really splitting hairs Alan!...lol
I agree that graph looks great and you should be extremely happy with that!


I still remember when I was telling you that you should have gone with dual XS30's like I did and you were trying to tell me that your XS15's were more then enough


I guess really you were just trying to convince yourself!....LOL
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Old 01-13-2015, 11:02 AM
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I always felt the whole "must hit a 115dB" to be considered reference a little crazy anyways. Any sub that can hit a 110dB at 15hz is one hell of a sub IMHO, and the Triax-18 is right there in that conversation. Job well done with the new Triax Tom.
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Old 01-13-2015, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Couple things,

Sweeps will tend to read anywhere from 3-6dB lower than burst capabilities in this context. Burst capabilities are really what we want to use when predicting how a subwoofer will react with transient material like music and film.

"Reference Level" will almost never require >115dB from a properly calibrated subwoofer system. This is especially true <20hz sine there will be no summation from the rest of the channels unless the mixer out strong 3hz to 20hz signal on them for some very odd reason.

Just based on your curves and my experience when measuring sweeps versus bursts I bet you are "reference capable" down to 10hz at least, maybe 5-7hz. (assuming correct system calibration of course).


Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Well...YEAH FOR ME!

And, yes, you can assume "correct calibration" from me Tom. I very painstakingly set SPL levels for that measuring session in particular.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Actually it looks like your half a dB away from reference at 20hz, but now we're really splitting hairs Alan!...lol
I agree that graph looks great and you should be extremely happy with that!


I still remember when I was telling you that you should have gone with dual XS30's like I did and you were trying to tell me that your XS15's were more then enough


I guess really you were just trying to convince yourself!....LOL
Exactly....we all do that at one time or another I s'pose.

Heck, maybe I'm just fooling myself that dual T-18s is "enough"......



....to be continued (??).
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Old 01-13-2015, 01:04 PM
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I thought the graph only showed reference at 20hz? Below that it dropped below 115dB, it was still very impressive though.
Yes but normally you get another 2-3db over what REW shows. The difference between sine wave test tones and source content.
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Old 01-13-2015, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
I always felt the whole "must hit a 115dB" to be considered reference a little crazy anyways. Any sub that can hit a 110dB at 15hz is one hell of a sub IMHO, and the Triax-18 is right there in that conversation. Job well done with the new Triax Tom.
While I do not think it is a must, it is nice to have the headroom when you pop a blu ray such as edge of tomorrow. That opening scene calls for 120db at reference level. Obviously those type of scenes are few and far between.
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Old 01-13-2015, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by buckley44 View Post
I received my XS30es yesterday and ran my Audessey on a Marantz 8801. I'm also using my paradigm sealed signature servo 15" with it and everything sounds great, Now my sickness is starting to creep up and thinking how it would sound with 2 PSA'S
up front and keep the servo behind the seating area Picture below says it all!!!
The blown away man
Haven't seen that in awhile
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Old 01-13-2015, 01:22 PM
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@Alan P , is that graph for a single Triax-18 or for your duals combined? That's one thing that I forgot to ask you about.
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Old 01-13-2015, 01:24 PM
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Please do NOT be one of those guys who blows thousands on a sub system only to neuter it by sub-optimal placement for aesthetic reasons.
I'm open to putting subs anywhere on the front wall (behind the screen) or the back wall (behind the second row of seats) . I just don't want anything on the side walls that would block walkways etc.
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Old 01-13-2015, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
@Alan P , is that graph for a single Triax-18 or for your duals combined? That's one thing that I forgot to ask you about.
That's both subs.
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Old 01-13-2015, 02:03 PM
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I'm open to putting subs anywhere on the front wall (behind the screen) or the back wall (behind the second row of seats) . I just don't want anything on the side walls that would block walkways etc.
That's good.

Most times, one in front and one in back is the best option.
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Old 01-13-2015, 02:11 PM
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I'm open to putting subs anywhere on the front wall (behind the screen) or the back wall (behind the second row of seats) . I just don't want anything on the side walls that would block walkways etc.
Modeled your room in REW, wasn't sure where your MLP is so I put it dead center, 8' from back wall.

Anyways, you can clearly see the advantage of one sub in front and one in back:

Both up front:



Both in back:



One front, one back:

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Old 01-13-2015, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Oh, and BTW AVAB....you don't have to do a screen shot to post your REW graphs. See that little camera icon to the upper left of your graph window? Click that.

You have read the entire REW Guide linked in my sig, right??
Thanks for the tip. Honestly, I got to the point in the guide where I could take measurements, then I did not think about it again.


I tried moving the subs around tonight, but that either made it worse or it stayed the same. Measuring each sub individually yielded a slight improvement in the graph, but not much. I included the graphs for both subs together, left only, right only and one with audyssey on.

It looks like the subs could be working against each other, is there a way to fix that problem?
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Old 01-13-2015, 03:21 PM
 
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Man those are some of the weirdest graphs I have ever seen. yikes
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Old 01-13-2015, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by AVAB View Post
Thanks for the tip. Honestly, I got to the point in the guide where I could take measurements, then I did not think about it again.


I tried moving the subs around tonight, but that either made it worse or it stayed the same. Measuring each sub individually yielded a slight improvement in the graph, but not much. I included the graphs for both subs together, left only, right only and one with audyssey on.

It looks like the subs could be working against each other, is there a way to fix that problem?
You've got more work to do my friend....in particular, pushing subs around your room.

What version of Audyssey are you running?

What mic are you using with REW and are you using a tripod or mic boom?

A drawing and/or pics of your room would be helpful too.
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Old 01-13-2015, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by AVAB View Post
Thanks for the tip. Honestly, I got to the point in the guide where I could take measurements, then I did not think about it again.


I tried moving the subs around tonight, but that either made it worse or it stayed the same. Measuring each sub individually yielded a slight improvement in the graph, but not much. I included the graphs for both subs together, left only, right only and one with audyssey on.

It looks like the subs could be working against each other, is there a way to fix that problem?
OK, I will give my 2 cents worth, even though its only worth 1/2 cents. Im just learning this myself so I am probably talking out of my woofer. But I think I read that Nulls are cancellations, and can be caused by wavelengths crashing into each other. Can you try moving the mic towards the front wall, and then the back wall some. Maybe even left and right also, and see if it changes where that nasty null happens in the FR just for a test............ and its easy to move the mic.
If anyone thinks this is a waste of time please chime in. It was just a thought.
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Old 01-13-2015, 04:21 PM
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Hello all, pulled the trigger and ordered a xv15se earlier this week. Been lurking these pages and picked up lots of useful info. I'm totally new at this so take it easy if I ask noobish questions I sent back a pb 2000 that was my 1st real sub. It dug deep with movies but seemed lacking in mid/upper bass musically. Saw a lot of love for PSA so I called up and spoke with Tom he was very knowledgable and didn't try to sell/push his product to me. He said the xv15se would dig deep and the upper mid bass would be night and day compared to the pb 2000. So I ordered a b-stock unit and he threw in a 25 ft sub cable just for kicks. Now I wait patiently for the sub to get here and hope to have no regrets in sending back the pb 2000. Thanks again to all the members who have a way better handle on this than I do. And big thanks to Tom for his outstanding customer service !
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Old 01-13-2015, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by AVAB View Post
Thanks for the tip. Honestly, I got to the point in the guide where I could take measurements, then I did not think about it again.


I tried moving the subs around tonight, but that either made it worse or it stayed the same. Measuring each sub individually yielded a slight improvement in the graph, but not much. I included the graphs for both subs together, left only, right only and one with audyssey on.

It looks like the subs could be working against each other, is there a way to fix that problem?
It looks like you have your mains going too in the measurements? Clearly you have a massive 60hz suck out in the room, I'm guessing this isn't a sealed room?
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Old 01-13-2015, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Cochese347 View Post
Hello all, pulled the trigger and ordered a xv15se earlier this week. Been lurking these pages and picked up lots of useful info. I'm totally new at this so take it easy if I ask noobish questions I sent back a pb 2000 that was my 1st real sub. It dug deep with movies but seemed lacking in mid/upper bass musically. Saw a lot of love for PSA so I called up and spoke with Tom he was very knowledgable and didn't try to sell/push his product to me. He said the xv15se would dig deep and the upper mid bass would be night and day compared to the pb 2000. So I ordered a b-stock unit and he threw in a 25 ft sub cable just for kicks. Now I wait patiently for the sub to get here and hope to have no regrets in sending back the pb 2000. Thanks again to all the members who have a way better handle on this than I do. And big thanks to Tom for his outstanding customer service !
Congrats on your new order. I hope your sub arrives soon and you get to dial in fast so you can begin enjoying the sweet bass of the XV15se.
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Old 01-13-2015, 04:59 PM
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AVAB I just recently went through what you are going through and all I can say is it's a great workout. At one point I moved my subs (trying a new position) and had them in a position where I had a major dip at 70Hz (similar to you 60Hz dip). All I can say is I got them out of there as soon as I could. And sadly the only way to get rid of a dip like that is either by moving the subs out of that area and trying another spot or moving you MLP or a combination of the two.

Start with moving one sub to a new position and see if that changes things. Then if need be move the other. Get creative and move furniture if you have to and keep trying out new positions (actually it sounds like you are already doing that) but don't give up.
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Old 01-13-2015, 05:07 PM
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Thanks Hopinater.
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Old 01-13-2015, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Modeled your room in REW, wasn't sure where your MLP is so I put it dead center, 8' from back wall.

Anyways, you can clearly see the advantage of one sub in front and one in back:

Both up front:



Both in back:



One front, one back:

Thanks man! I appreciate the information and the time/effort to put it together.
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Old 01-13-2015, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Red99 View Post
OK, I will give my 2 cents worth, even though its only worth 1/2 cents. Im just learning this myself so I am probably talking out of my woofer. But I think I read that Nulls are cancellations, and can be caused by wavelengths crashing into each other. Can you try moving the mic towards the front wall, and then the back wall some. Maybe even left and right also, and see if it changes where that nasty null happens in the FR just for a test............ and its easy to move the mic.
If anyone thinks this is a waste of time please chime in. It was just a thought.
Not a waste of time Red...in fact, very good advice....IF he is willing to move the MLP.
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Old 01-13-2015, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Romans828 View Post
Thanks man! I appreciate the information and the time/effort to put it together.
Took all of 5 minutes...and I was at work, sooooo......




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Old 01-13-2015, 08:03 PM
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Not a waste of time Red...in fact, very good advice....IF he is willing to move the MLP.
I was thinking just to see if if changed with the mic, then maybe he could movie it a foot front or back. lol
But more so, just to see if it a problem with the wavelength distant. Once you can see what the problem is, then you can try to find a solution. But first you have to know where the problem is coming from. Its a lot easier to move a mic than a subwoofer around. Unless it has casters. lol


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Old 01-13-2015, 08:03 PM
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First off, thanks for all of the responses! I am not sure if the comment about weird graphs was directed at me, but it still made me laugh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
You've got more work to do my friend....in particular, pushing subs around your room.

What version of Audyssey are you running?

What mic are you using with REW and are you using a tripod or mic boom?

A drawing and/or pics of your room would be helpful too.
My receiver only has Audyssey MultEQ. I was planning on leaving it off, so audyssey was not a factor when I purchased the receiver.

I have a UMIK-1 which I am using with a tripod. Is a mic boom worth it?

I will try to get a drawing and some pics up tomorrow. Unfortunately I think all you will see is that there is not much room to work with in there. Suggestions are most welcome though, I hope you see something I do not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red99 View Post
OK, I will give my 2 cents worth, even though its only worth 1/2 cents. Im just learning this myself so I am probably talking out of my woofer. But I think I read that Nulls are cancellations, and can be caused by wavelengths crashing into each other. Can you try moving the mic towards the front wall, and then the back wall some. Maybe even left and right also, and see if it changes where that nasty null happens in the FR just for a test............ and its easy to move the mic.
If anyone thinks this is a waste of time please chime in. It was just a thought.
I will try moving the mic and see what I get. More information is never a bad thing after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
It looks like you have your mains going too in the measurements? Clearly you have a massive 60hz suck out in the room, I'm guessing this isn't a sealed room?
Yes, the main speakers are also playing when I am measuring. Should I try without? I thought the idea was to see how well everything works together, so I have been leaving them on.

You are correct, the room is not sealed. There is a door and an open stairway in the rear. The stairway is curtained off, but I am not sure if that does anything acoustically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
AVAB I just recently went through what you are going through and all I can say is it's a great workout. At one point I moved my subs (trying a new position) and had them in a position where I had a major dip at 70Hz (similar to you 60Hz dip). All I can say is I got them out of there as soon as I could. And sadly the only way to get rid of a dip like that is either by moving the subs out of that area and trying another spot or moving you MLP or a combination of the two.

Start with moving one sub to a new position and see if that changes things. Then if need be move the other. Get creative and move furniture if you have to and keep trying out new positions (actually it sounds like you are already doing that) but don't give up.
Unfortunately I took away most of my options for rearranging the room when I put up a 14 ft projector screen in it. I love the big screen, but now I am realizing I may have sacrificed some sound quality.

Thanks again for all of the responses and I will do my best to get some pics of the room up here tomorrow.
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Old 01-13-2015, 08:07 PM
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Is a mic boom worth it?.
For $25. Heck yeah. It will be the best $25 you spent.
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Old 01-14-2015, 04:32 AM
 
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For $25. Heck yeah. It will be the best $25 you spent.
+1
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Old 01-14-2015, 06:02 AM
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I guess I'm down -3db from reference (115db) at about 18-19hz. Still sounds really, really good to me.

I disagree. You are not compressing until what looks like 14 or 15 Hz. I would bet that another sweep 3-4 dB higher would result in reference level output down close to 16 hz. I am sure in a slightly smaller room you would easily have above reference level output to below 10.
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Old 01-14-2015, 06:12 AM
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Its just called a T-18, and it says 18" driver, (Not Drivers). And there is no picture of the back side. So how would anyone know? Now I can see why it cost so much. lol
  • Proprietary 18" driver made in the USA
Red, I see that you returned the dual XS15's since they were not sufficient for you in that huge room. If you go with PSA for your next subs, I would strongly recommend dual XV30's. The 16-30 Hz output you will get will be two to four times what you had with the XS15's, and the upper bass output is very strong as well with the dual drivers. And $2850 for the pair comes in less than a single triax.
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