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Old 01-20-2015, 07:49 AM
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Taking a note from Jefferey and his minor placement/orientation tweaks, I decided to move my T-18s out of the rear corners (about 30") and towards the center of the wall.

The results were good.

Less "boomy", more "controlled"...and I think I'm getting more extension. Gonna take some measurements tonight, it was too late last night.

The right rear sub is now literally 6" from my seat*.


*Can't locate it at all though.
Well, this didn't turn out well at all.

Gonna put 'em back in the corners tonight.



The FR doesn't look too bad, but OMG THE RINGING!!




Ringing was much more constrained with subs in the corners.





The strange thing is, it sounded pretty good (didn't measure though) when I first pushed the subs out of the corners...when I re-ran Audyssey everything went to hell.

Maybe I'll try re-calibrating with them in the corners, move them out again and see where they measure.
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Old 01-20-2015, 07:52 AM
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Even with the subs doing the heavy lifting, many speakers out there are not capable of clean reference playback...it takes a very capable tweeter and midrange to play reference with no compression. The highs are hurting your ears from the compression which makes them harsh. Get some MTM-110's and reference will become regular on blu-ray night.
Well I can't say I have exceptionally good ears so I can't really say if I get compression or not in the highs and mids. But the sound seems exceptionally clear to me. It's just that crashes (e.g. windows breaking, etc.) are just uncomfortably loud at reference. When it's only once or twice in a movie it's no big deal but with continuous action scenes it gets tiring fast. That being said it could be me: I have hearing problems, so I'm missing most of the highs anyway (my own FR begins to drop fast past 2 kHz) and got a light tinnitus that seems to somehow interact with the highs.

As for equipment, I *think* I have the necessary gear. Using Energy RC-70 mains and an RC-LCR center, they're rated for 250W and I'm using waaay below that (my AVR is a Denon X4000 with 125wpc max, and it's not even hot to the touch when doing reference-level demos) so I'd be surprised if I was hitting the limits of those speakers. Furthermore I'm in a relatively small room (1680 cu ft) and not too far from the speakers (about 9-10 ft).

For sure I'd like to try HT speakers like the MTM-110s or Catalysts or the JTR ones. But I don't really see that coming short-term nor mid-term. Perhaps I should do compression sweeps with REW on the whole range for a change...

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Old 01-20-2015, 07:53 AM
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Alan, just put the gear in closet and enjoy your subs already.

(At least for 2 weeks)
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Last edited by basshead81; 01-20-2015 at 08:01 AM.
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Old 01-20-2015, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by neutro View Post
Well I can't say I have exceptionally good ears so I can't really say if I get compression or not in the highs and mids. But the sound seems exceptionally clear to me. It's just that crashes (e.g. windows breaking, etc.) are just uncomfortably loud at reference. When it's only once or twice in a movie it's no big deal but with continuous action scenes it gets tiring fast. That being said it could be me: I have hearing problems, so I'm missing most of the highs anyway (my own FR begins to drop fast past 2 kHz) and got a light tinnitus that seems to somehow interact with the highs.

As for equipment, I *think* I have the necessary gear. Using Energy RC-70 mains and an RC-LCR center, they're rated for 250W and I'm using waaay below that (my AVR is a Denon X4000 with 125wpc max, and it's not even hot to the touch when doing reference-level demos) so I'd be surprised if I was hitting the limits of those speakers. Furthermore I'm in a relatively small room (1680 cu ft) and not too far from the speakers (about 9-10 ft).

For sure I'd like to try HT speakers like the MTM-110s or Catalysts or the JTR ones. But I don't really see that coming short-term nor mid-term. Perhaps I should do compression sweeps with REW on the whole range for a change...
No aluminum dome tweeter is capable of reference level without some form of compression. There is a reason why you seen horns and compression drivers being used in Pro Audio, Big Theaters, and most High Efficiency speaker designs.. Compression does not inherently mean you will hear audible distortion. The dynamics are squashing which causes a bright/harsh sound and that causes the "ear fatigue" you are describing.
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Old 01-20-2015, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
No aluminum dome tweeter is capable of reference level without some form of compression.
Interesting, I'll look into that -- but still, I think it is a bit too general a statement. I mean technically, if I'm getting, say, 93 dB SPL without compressing 12 ft away from my aluminum dome tweeter, then I'd get 99 dB SPL 6 ft away, and 105 dB SPL 3 ft away. So there is a distance at which the speakers can produce reference level without compressing.

Now I have no idea, as I said before, if I'm compressing or not, but it seems to me that in a small room, not too far from the speakers, reference level should be relatively easily attainable with mid-end gear, regardless of the technology.

I agree that in a larger room, further from the MLP, you quickly need way more in terms of equipment (after all, the difference between 100 W and 1000 W fed to a speaker that can take it, is 10 dB, which is only twice as loud to the ear).

So if I wanted to verify this, compression sweeps are the same in the highs than for a sub right? I might have to purchase hearing protection for this

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Old 01-20-2015, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Well, this didn't turn out well at all.

Gonna put 'em back in the corners tonight.



The FR doesn't look too bad, but OMG THE RINGING!!




Ringing was much more constrained with subs in the corners.





The strange thing is, it sounded pretty good (didn't measure though) when I first pushed the subs out of the corners...when I re-ran Audyssey everything went to hell.

Maybe I'll try re-calibrating with them in the corners, move them out again and see where they measure.
Alan, it probably sounds good because most of the ringing appears to be below 20hz. So you probably won't be hearing any of that.
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Old 01-20-2015, 10:30 AM
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Alan, just put the gear in closet and enjoy your subs already.

(At least for 2 weeks)
You have no idea how pissed I was last night after I heard the results after I ran Audyssey....I was steaming mad.

Really wish I would have saved the previous calibration before I started....oh well, hoping I can get back to where I was tonight.
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Old 01-20-2015, 10:36 AM
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Alan, it probably sounds good because most of the ringing appears to be below 20hz. So you probably won't be hearing any of that.
You talking about the second graph? Yes, I agree.
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Old 01-20-2015, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Even with the subs doing the heavy lifting, many speakers out there are not capable of clean reference playback...it takes a very capable tweeter and midrange to play reference with no compression. The highs are hurting your ears from the compression which makes them harsh. Get some MTM-110's and reference will become regular on blu-ray night.
Broadband acoustic panels help as well
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Old 01-20-2015, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
You have no idea how pissed I was last night after I heard the results after I ran Audyssey....I was steaming mad.

Really wish I would have saved the previous calibration before I started....oh well, hoping I can get back to where I was tonight.
I always make sure I save Audessey everytime I rerun it. I assume you already know you can do that in the save/load view device webpage in window.
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Old 01-20-2015, 10:57 AM
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I'm glad for you bear, I'm roughly in the same situation. In a few months, both of my kids will be at the kindergarten, and at that time, if I happen to catch an unfortunate cold and must take a day off, I'll have the house to myself

Last time I watched a whole movie above -10 was 2 years ago, resting from a minor surgery. I had a blast, 5 movies in 2 days



You might be surprised: since the subs do the heavy lifting power-wise, it takes little AVR power to fly up to reference level. Anyway, -10 to -6 is the loudest I can take for a whole action movie. The highs hurt my ears too much at reference.
Even with the subs doing the heavy lifting, many speakers out there are not capable of clean reference playback...it takes a very capable tweeter and midrange to play reference with no compression. The highs are hurting your ears from the compression which makes them harsh. Get some MTM-110's and reference will become regular on blu-ray night.
Nobody in here must have BP7000's
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Old 01-20-2015, 11:17 AM
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I always make sure I save Audessey everytime I rerun it. I assume you already know you can do that in the save/load view device webpage in window.
Yup, I know....just didn't do it.
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Old 01-20-2015, 11:27 AM
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I had power outage one time and didn't realize all of my distances and levels were reset to default values until I noticed it sounded kind of out of whack. Loaded the config.dat file back in and I was golden again. At least now you know to make sure to save everytime to prevent being mad.
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Old 01-20-2015, 11:36 AM
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Oh yeah, that's what I was steamed about and I was only steamed at my own stupidity.
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Old 01-20-2015, 11:48 AM
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^^ ***** happens sometime. By the way, how far are you to Bismarck, ND? If it is not too far, I will be in Bismarck the last week of March and would like to meet you and check out your system. You seem to be a likable guy
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Old 01-20-2015, 11:59 AM
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I'm about 5 hours from Bismark. If you're gonna be in my neighborhood, you're more than welcome to come over for a demo!
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Old 01-20-2015, 12:04 PM
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^^ hey, thanks. That is 10hrs back and forth and I will be there to work, so I have to pass this time. I will hit you up when work sends me closer next time.
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Old 01-20-2015, 02:04 PM
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Decided to check out some PSA gear finally so I ordered dual XV-15se for my theater. Getting real excited to take delivery of them on Thursday! Ill post some impressions probably by this weekend. Ive been eyeing this company for a few years now and I think Tom V. has done a heck of a job with it. I respect him very much so this is a no brainer. Coming from dual HSU VTF-2 MK3s which cry for uncle trying to keep up with my big JBL Cinema mains when letting loose. I have a feeling the XVs should do a better job Can't wait to play with new gear!!!
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Old 01-20-2015, 02:05 PM
 
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Decided to check out some PSA gear finally so I ordered dual XV-15se for my theater. Getting real excited to take delivery of them on Thursday! Ill post some impressions probably by this weekend. Ive been eyeing this company for a few years now and I think Tom V. has done a heck of a job with it. I respect him very much so this is a no brainer. Coming from dual HSU VTF-2 MK3s which cry for uncle trying to keep up with my big JBL Cinema mains when letting loose. I have a feeling the XVs should do a better job Can't wait to play with new gear!!!
Awesome!! Congrats. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. Nothing better than getting new gear! I'll have that same feeling next week
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Old 01-20-2015, 02:57 PM
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Awesome!! Congrats. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. Nothing better than getting new gear! I'll have that same feeling next week
Thanks bro!!

Aint that the truth!! Congrats to you as well!

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Old 01-20-2015, 03:00 PM
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Awesome!! I'll have that same feeling next week
and you are not going tell us what gear(s)?
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Old 01-20-2015, 03:06 PM
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and you are not going tell us what gear(s)?

I think Brian got the new slanted PSA surrounds.
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Old 01-20-2015, 03:18 PM
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Brian's building some DIY subs.
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Old 01-20-2015, 03:30 PM
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Brian's building some DIY subs.

Oh okay, wasn't he in on the UXL group buy though? Because he won't be getting those drivers for months if he is.
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Old 01-20-2015, 03:57 PM
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Guess that's not the goodies he's talking about then.

Brian?
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Old 01-20-2015, 04:07 PM
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Nobody in here must have BP7000's
dual 1" dome tweeters definitely helps split the load...I would say those are capable. Although for the price I would take some JTR's or PSA speakers.
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Old 01-20-2015, 04:08 PM
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Guess that's not the goodies he's talking about then.

Brian?
Brian ordered new mtm110 surrounds.
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Old 01-20-2015, 04:18 PM
 
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I think Brian got the new slanted PSA surrounds.
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Brian's building some DIY subs.
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Brian ordered new mtm110 surrounds.
Your all correct!!

Haha

However next week will be new surrounds

Diy subs will be more like June/july
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Old 01-20-2015, 07:54 PM
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Alan, I think the T-18s are meant for corner duties............
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Old 01-20-2015, 08:02 PM
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Got 'em there right now...re-running Audyssey.
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