Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 571 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #17101 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
Yeah, I've been coming to this conclusion as well. It's just that I think everyone is letting the JTR Cap run wild as the undisputed king of commercial ported subs. For me that sub is too pricey and I have little time I'm willing to invest in building one myself. I guess I thought it would be worth someone trying to take a shot at that sub for a little less money, seems like a decent market to be had there. Maybe I am wrong.
For a single large box? Maybe. But I'd like to see how duals from hsu or us would stack up. I bet twin 15h or V1500s would make it a good fight. And you'd gain the benefits associated with dual subs as well...all for much less cost.

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post #17102 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
For a single large box? Maybe. But I'd like to see how duals from hsu or us would stack up. I bet twin 15h or V1500s would make it a good fight. And you'd gain the benefits associated with dual subs as well...all for much less cost.

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This is true, and I've often thought about buying two more xv15se's and stacking them on the two I already have.

Truthfully though I don't think I listen loud enough for any of this to do much more than what I have now. You have even explained this to me numerous times in chat using analytics.... but its tough to escape that "Tim the Toolman Taylor" mindset of more power is better.
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post #17103 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Just curious, what is the allure of a v1800 when the V1500 is available at 1049/1999?

The enclosure would need to stretch out to accommodate the 18. Bigger box = more weight. More weight and size = more shipping costs. 18 cost more than 15. engineering costs that need to be rolled in...etc. So, overall....another $350(?) to the cost for maybe 1.5 - 2dB or so averaged from 16-100hz. The shipping costs would be about double I bet. So a much higher % of the product cost goes to the shipper instead of product content/engineering.

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Hi Tom, I was hoping a doubling of performance going with a bigger driver/enclosure/amp ~ say for $1000.00. I would (especially my wife) rather have 2 subs than 4 to satisy my crazy spl needs
But if it's only 1.5-2dB, then you're absolute right - it's not worth it.
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post #17104 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
This is true, and I've often thought about buying two more xv15se's and stacking them on the two I already have.

Truthfully though I don't think I listen loud enough for any of this to do much more than what I have now. You have even explained this to me numerous times in chat using analytics.... but its tough to escape that "Tim the Toolman Taylor" mindset of more power is better.
Oh that is so true. Something about men and the whole "no replacement for displacement" POV...these amps go to eleven and all that..

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post #17105 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Well said. Another qualifier is the source material. By that I mean...we often get feedback on a product based on 30 minutes of hand picked demo scenes that focus on a very narrow bandwidth...10-20hz for example. So someone might say..."I thought the XS30se was going to be an upgrade over the xv15 but during my demos I didn't notice improvements???????"

My answer is "please, don't use 10 second scenes from hand picked movies to determine overall subwoofer performance. Pop in your favorite movie, or better yet your favorite concert disc and watch it all the way through".

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Tom, for the average person listening at -10, would DUAL V1500's have enough output from 15-120Hz? The output numbers for the S3000's are impressive but when considering DUAL V1500's shouldn't that be "enough"?

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post #17106 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
He did...just a matter of getting sub happy.
It was. I made a typo.


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post #17107 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
i thought you had the XS15's?
I did. They were. I blame it on the Margarita.
I went and edited my mistake.
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post #17108 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 09:29 AM
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On the sealed vs ported sub debate. I came across this on a DIY HF speaker build on a guys signature. So this is a good thread to see the differences in a blind sub test.

Archaea's Kansas City Blind Subwoofer Shootout 2012
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post #17109 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 10:01 AM
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Hi guys, I received my XS15se yesterday but is not performing as expected, I am replacing a Polk 505 and while the XS goes deeper for sure it is lacking in the mid and upper bass, on a side by side comparison for music the polk sound better and louder. I tried the XS15 in different locations and ran Audessey every time but still I feel than something is missing.

With movies the XS15se sound better and it wins hands down but with music is a different history... If I play a blu-ray concert and connect both subs and then power on/off the XS15 I dont even notice it presence but if I do the same with the polk I immediately notice the lack in the mid/upper bass.

Any ideas how to solve it? I really dont think the polk is superior on any way the XS15 is a complete different league but in a side to side comparison it sounded better and louder.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

Receiver Denon x3100, sealed room around 2200-2300 cubic feet. Crossover at 80hz.
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post #17110 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Pacheco Vasquez View Post
Hi guys, I received my XS15se yesterday but is not performing as expected, I am replacing a Polk 505 and while the XS goes deeper for sure it is lacking in the mid and upper bass, on a side by side comparison for music the polk sound better and louder. I tried the XS15 in different locations and ran Audessey every time but still I feel than something is missing.

With movies the XS15se sound better and it wins hands down but with music is a different history... If I play a blu-ray concert and connect both subs and then power on/off the XS15 I dont even notice it presence but if I do the same with the polk I immediately notice the lack in the mid/upper bass.

Any ideas how to solve it? I really dont think the polk is superior on any way the XS15 is a complete different league but in a side to side comparison it sounded better and louder.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

Receiver Denon x3100, sealed room around 2200-2300 cubic feet. Crossover at 80hz.
Congrats on the subwoofer man. What you have is a powerful and clean sounding sub. The PSW505 creates a massive amount of distortion that you hear, which makes it sound louder.

Do you have an SPL meter?

The very first thing I would do is chat with Tom. He spent over an hour with me on the phone helping me to dial in my duals.

If you can answer these questions, the guys here may be better able to assist:

Amp gain setting (approximately... 1:00, 2:00, 3:00, etc)
Amp crossover setting (e.g. max)
Amp phase setting
Subwoofer cable connection type and port (single cable or y-splitter)
Subwoofer placement in room (mid wall, corner loaded, nearfield)
Room geometry (length, width, height) with a couple of pics maybe.
AVR subwoofer trim setting (gain in your AVR settings)
AVR distance setting (if applicable)
AVR subwoofer phase
Speaker models
Source type (e.g. cable box TV shows, Bluray movies, digital music files, or streaming music)
...and lastly, do you have room correction software on your AVR? If so, what type and what are the settings for your listening mode (dynamic volume, music enhancement, etc).

Good luck brother. Let us know and the guys will get you sorted out shortly.
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post #17111 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 10:40 AM
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Thats a long list I will do my best... I chat with Tom this morning and he told me to post it here while he talk with Jim about possibles solution...

For movies the XS15 for sure but for Music I feel its lacking in the mid/upper bass...

- No I dont have a real SPL just the one on my phone.
- Sub gain is about 2:00
- Sub crossover at max and DVR crossover at 80hz for the sub and 80 for all 7 channels.
- Amp phase 0, i tried other positions but didnt improve.
- Subwoofer connected using a single cable (dont have a splitter but I do have 2 cables will try connecting boths, AVR has dual subs outpus using an internal Y splitter)
- Regarding location I tried corner and mid wall next to the fist row. (mid wall is also a near field location)
- Change Sub to 5db hotter after running Audyssey Multi EQ XT
- Source for music are Bluray concerts.
- All speaker are Polk RTiA
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post #17112 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonathan Pacheco Vasquez View Post
Thats a long list I will do my best... I chat with Tom this morning and he told me to post it here while he talk with Jim about possibles solution...

For movies the XS15 for sure but for Music I feel its lacking in the mid/upper bass...

- No I dont have a real SPL just the one on my phone.
- Sub gain is about 2:00
- Sub crossover at max and DVR crossover at 80hz for the sub and 80 for all 7 channels.
- Amp phase 0, i tried other positions but didnt improve.
- Subwoofer connected using a single cable (dont have a splitter but I do have 2 cables will try connecting boths, AVR has dual subs outpus using an internal Y splitter)
- Regarding location I tried corner and mid wall next to the fist row. (mid wall is also a near field location)
- Change Sub to 5db hotter after running Audyssey Multi EQ XT
- Source for music are Bluray concerts.
- All speaker are Polk RTiA
Try raising the AVR sub crossover to 120 Hz or higher. You may be having problems with cancellation at 80 Hz for both crossovers.

Do you have dynamic EQ or dynamic volume enabled?
What is your listening curve set to? Movies or music?

Can you run a couple of bass sweeps and listen in different positions in the room to see if your MLP is in a null?

Have you tried adjusting the sub distance setting in the AVR by about 2 - 5 feet either way to see if it improves?

If you can move the sub into the corner equidistant from both walls (about 2 - 6 inches) you may get a little more room gain.

Power Sound Audio s7201 Quad 18" Sealed Subwoofer (shipped and arriving soon!!!) - Onkyo TX-NR3009 - Emotiva XPA-2 300 WPC - Polk Audio RTiA9 Mains - CSiA6 Center - F/XiA6 Surrounds - Epson 5030UB Projector - Multi-format 106" HD Gray screen - Samsung BD-F5900 3D Bluray - WDTV Live HD Media Player with 6TB External Storage - Nintendo Wii - XBox 360 - - XBox One S - Logitech Harmony One, and custom DIY media console...
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post #17113 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonathan Pacheco Vasquez View Post
Thats a long list I will do my best... I chat with Tom this morning and he told me to post it here while he talk with Jim about possibles solution...

For movies the XS15 for sure but for Music I feel its lacking in the mid/upper bass...

- No I dont have a real SPL just the one on my phone.
- Sub gain is about 2:00
- Sub crossover at max and DVR crossover at 80hz for the sub and 80 for all 7 channels.
- Amp phase 0, i tried other positions but didnt improve.
- Subwoofer connected using a single cable (dont have a splitter but I do have 2 cables will try connecting boths, AVR has dual subs outpus using an internal Y splitter)
- Regarding location I tried corner and mid wall next to the fist row. (mid wall is also a near field location)
- Change Sub to 5db hotter after running Audyssey Multi EQ XT
- Source for music are Bluray concerts.
- All speaker are Polk RTiA
How far is the main listening position from the rear wall ? my room is 21ft as well and 6-8ft from the rear is the sweet spot before null. I would also bump the sub 5 db post Audyssey as that may be it as well
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post #17114 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post
How far is the main listening position from the rear wall ? my room is 21ft as well and 6-8ft from the rear is the sweet spot before null. I would also bump the sub 5 db post Audyssey as that may be it as well
Good point. I have a serious null in front of my MLP in the middle of the room. The sub distance tweak may move the null forward or backward.
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post #17115 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post
How far is the main listening position from the rear wall ? my room is 21ft as well and 6-8ft from the rear is the sweet spot before null. I would also bump the sub 5 db post Audyssey as that may be it as well

The fist row is about 9 foot and the second row about 4 from the back wall. The sub is running 5db hotter that the rest of the system. what I am missing or lacking is the mid/upper bass on music. The polk provide that in the same location the xs is right now.
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post #17116 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 11:23 AM
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[QUOTE=climber07;31991985]Try raising the AVR sub crossover to 120 Hz or higher. You may be having problems with cancellation at 80 Hz for both crossovers.

Do you have dynamic EQ or dynamic volume enabled?
What is your listening curve set to? Movies or music?

The dynamic EQ is on and the dynamic volume disabled.

What is your listening curve set to? Movies or music? no idea what does this mean. sorry.
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post #17117 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonathan Pacheco Vasquez View Post
The fist row is about 9 foot and the second row about 4 from the back wall. The sub is running 5db hotter that the rest of the system. what I am missing or lacking is the mid/upper bass on music. The polk provide that in the same location the xs is right now.
How long have you had the sub? I don't care what anyone says about this but that driver needs to loosen up a bit so play some music at a good level with constant bass. Also try 1" movements back forward and side to side as different subs have a different time domain and excites room modes differently. For now turn Audyssey off and try manual settings in the AVR to get placement right.
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post #17118 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post
How long have you had the sub? I don't care what anyone says about this but that driver needs to loosen up a bit so play some music at a good level with constant bass. Also try 1" movements back forward and side to side as different subs have a different time domain and excites room modes differently. For now turn Audyssey off and try manual settings in the AVR to get placement right.
I got it yesterday brand new. I tried deferents positions and notice a change in the deep bass but in the mid/upper is laking no matter the position.
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post #17119 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonathan Pacheco Vasquez View Post
Hi guys, I received my XS15se yesterday but is not performing as expected, I am replacing a Polk 505 and while the XS goes deeper for sure it is lacking in the mid and upper bass, on a side by side comparison for music the polk sound better and louder. I tried the XS15 in different locations and ran Audessey every time but still I feel than something is missing.

With movies the XS15se sound better and it wins hands down but with music is a different history... If I play a blu-ray concert and connect both subs and then power on/off the XS15 I dont even notice it presence but if I do the same with the polk I immediately notice the lack in the mid/upper bass.

Any ideas how to solve it? I really dont think the polk is superior on any way the XS15 is a complete different league but in a side to side comparison it sounded better and louder.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

Receiver Denon x3100, sealed room around 2200-2300 cubic feet. Crossover at 80hz.
Ok, so all speakers are set to small and crossed-over at 80hz,
LFE channel is set to 120HZ
Are are only going to be running 1 sub right? the XS15SE or are running both subs?
You ran audyssey with ONLY the XS15SE connected right?
If you ran audyssey with JUST the XS15SE and then plugged your old sub in then what you are comparing is the XS15SE which has been EQ'ed/ flatter respond to a your Older sub which has not been EQ'ed and my have peaks through out the FR which will cause it to sound louder.

When I got my first XS30SE I was comparing it to my old Mirage BPS400 and I thought the Mirage played louder and the XS30SE pressurized the room alot more, what I quickly learned was that the XS30SE was so much CLEANER and the Mirage was over dramatic. Unless you run REW you really will not know whats going on.

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post #17120 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 11:49 AM
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Ahh yes,

Another poor soul climbing down the rabbit hole of subwoofer nirvana.........


Not to state the obvious, but your room seems rather large for a single 15" sub.. IMO.

As others have stated your previous sub was giving you bass.... probably not the cleanest or best performing bass,
but loud bass nonethelesss.


Add another XS15........... just for starters.
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post #17121 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonathan Pacheco Vasquez View Post
I got it yesterday brand new. I tried deferents positions and notice a change in the deep bass but in the mid/upper is laking no matter the position.
I've had this sub and will tell you it gets better! if possible push that first row back a foot. Also a lot of times a repositioning of the mains will help with what could be frequency cancellation try un toeing them a bit or change the distance manually with Audyssey off ( as a base line write down the Audyssey distance settings for speakers) as this could be a mic placement issue, once you find what sounds good to your ears manually try to manipulate the mic position by moving it back or forward side to side and up and down till you get the settings you want, the good thing is you only need to run position one then calculate to see the results, once its where you want it proceed to run the full 8 positions.
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post #17122 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulfly737 View Post
Ahh yes,

Another poor soul climbing down the rabbit hole of subwoofer nirvana.........


Not to state the obvious, but your room seems rather large for a single 15" sub.. IMO.

As others have stated your previous sub was giving you bass.... probably not the cleanest or best performing bass,
but loud bass nonethelesss.


Add another XS15........... just for starters.
My room is 20x21x8 and that single XS15se did just fine! keep in mind the Polk was perceived as louder (albeit at which frequency and baring 2nd order harmonic distortion) I would focus on getting one right in the rooms sweet spot before the daunting task of two, as there will be plenty of time for that later
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post #17123 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
Ok, so all speakers are set to small and crossed-over at 80hz,
LFE channel is set to 120HZ
Are are only going to be running 1 sub right? the XS15SE or are running both subs?
You ran audyssey with ONLY the XS15SE connected right?
If you ran audyssey with JUST the XS15SE and then plugged your old sub in then what you are comparing is the XS15SE which has been EQ'ed/ flatter respond to a your Older sound which has not been EQ'ed and my have peaks through out the FR which will cause it to sound and play louder.

When I got my first XS30SE I was comparing it to my old Mirage BPS400 and I thought the Mirage played louder and the XS30SE pressurized the room alot more, what I quickly learned was that the XS30SE was so much CLEANER and the Mirage was over dramatic. Unless you run REW you really will not know whats going on.
The sub crossover is at 80hz not 120hz and yes I am planing on running just 1 sub, I connected both just tho make the comparison. I turn audyssey on and off and compare them in deferents positions and the polk always provide the more mid bass I am sure it should be the other way the XS should be superior in everything but this is no the case here.
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post #17124 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
The 18" master/slave can not be eq'd individually due to there only being a 1 channel amp powering the system. That is the only down fall I see, which could potentially limit placement options to maximize the subs performance. Then again you might get away with placing both subs equidistant from the LP and end up with no response issues.
This is why I never looked into any of the master/slave options.
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post #17125 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonathan Pacheco Vasquez View Post
The sub crossover is at 80hz not 120hz and yes I am planing on running just 1 sub, I connected both just tho make the comparison. I turn audyssey on and off and compare them in deferents positions and the polk always provide the more mid bass I am sure it should be the other way the XS should be superior in everything but this is no the case here.
The LFE channel on the receiver should be set to 120hz and this only affects the LFE channel, example if the LFE channel on a concert or movie is encoded at 120hz and below and if you have the LFE channel in the receiver set at 80hz then from 80hz to 120hz you will be lacking.

You do have the cross-over on the sub set to max correct? and is using the LFE input. You might want to invest in a SPL meter, run test tones in different FR's and measure both subs output, it might be that you are used to listening to distorted bass and not clean bass. I hope you get it figured out as I know this hobby can be frustrating at times.


Edit:These systems also have a LPF for the LFE channel. This is the low pass filter (LPF) setting of the low frequency effects (LFE) channel. It is usually included in the crossover settings for bass management, but it has nothing to do with bass management. This is the high frequency cutoff point for the LFE, also known as the .1 channel in a 5.1/6.1/7.1 surround source. In practice this should always be set to 120Hz since the LFE channel supports information up to that frequency. When you set this lower than 120Hz the receiver or preamp will not redirect the LFE information to other channels. Instead it is not reproduced by the surround system. It should also be noted that this setting has nothing to do with how bass is managed for the full range channels in a surround system.

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post #17126 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 12:58 PM
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Do all receivers have an lfe crossover as well as a separate crossover for the sub/mains?

I'm not seeing a crossover option for lfe only on my yamaha.
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post #17127 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 01:16 PM
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Do all receivers have an lfe crossover as well as a separate crossover for the sub/mains?

I'm not seeing a crossover option for lfe only on my yamaha.
As far as I know they all should have that option, all the receiver owned has it...
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post #17128 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by jsc79 View Post
Do all receivers have an lfe crossover as well as a separate crossover for the sub/mains?

I'm not seeing a crossover option for lfe only on my yamaha.
My old Yamaha only had ONE. My new Denon has separate.

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post #17129 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 01:45 PM
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Hi guys, I received my XS15se yesterday but is not performing as expected, I am replacing a Polk 505 and while the XS goes deeper for sure it is lacking in the mid and upper bass, on a side by side comparison for music the polk sound better and louder. I tried the XS15 in different locations and ran Audessey every time but still I feel than something is missing.

With movies the XS15se sound better and it wins hands down but with music is a different history... If I play a blu-ray concert and connect both subs and then power on/off the XS15 I dont even notice it presence but if I do the same with the polk I immediately notice the lack in the mid/upper bass.

Any ideas how to solve it? I really dont think the polk is superior on any way the XS15 is a complete different league but in a side to side comparison it sounded better and louder.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

Receiver Denon x3100, sealed room around 2200-2300 cubic feet. Crossover at 80hz.
Have you tried switching positions with the subs? Sounds like the XS15 is hitting a null. If you switch spots and now the Polk is lacking upper bass, then you know thats a bad position.
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post #17130 of 36111 Old 02-21-2015, 01:47 PM
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On the sealed vs ported sub debate. I came across this on a DIY HF speaker build on a guys signature. So this is a good thread to see the differences in a blind sub test.

Archaea's Kansas City Blind Subwoofer Shootout 2012
Interesting......that they chose SEALED!

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