Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 574 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #17191 of 17376 Old 02-22-2015, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
The roll offs won't be significantly different and the ICE powered model's "room size" control will allow you to dial in a nearly identical FR. Unit to unit cancellation shouldn't be a big concern. The drawback to this is you will use the room size control to optimize unit 2 to unit 1....instead of 1+2 to the room itself(if you had two ICE powered units). The larger the room, the less of an issue this is though as the room size control becomes more useful as the room environment shrinks.


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Tom, how exactly do the room size controls work? Is the center of the dial "neutral" so that it has a natural response and turning it towards "small" reduces the low end and turning it towards "large" increases the low end?
Also, does the control work differently on the sealed vs ported models?

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post #17192 of 17376 Old 02-22-2015, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
The sound of a subwoofer is going to be 95% its FR, how the FR changes with volume, and audible distortions. In this case, the two models will be practically identical in "sound" until you approach the limits of the S3000. At that point the S3000i will have a little left in the tank. Overall, VERY similar.

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So unless I am overdriving Dual S3000's, there would be no reason to go for Dual S3000i's?

Other than bragging rights of course!
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post #17193 of 17376 Old 02-22-2015, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by mnc View Post
Tom, how exactly do the room size controls work? Is the center of the dial "neutral" so that it has a natural response and turning it towards "small" reduces the low end and turning it towards "large" increases the low end?
Also, does the control work differently on the sealed vs ported models?

LARGE on the dial is no change to the FR. The more you adjust the dial to SMALL the steeper the (anechoic) deep bass rolloff becomes. The control will work in the same way for all of our products.

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post #17194 of 17376 Old 02-22-2015, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by mnc View Post
So unless I am overdriving Dual S3000's, there would be no reason to go for Dual S3000i's?

Other than bragging rights of course!
True. But that can apply to every subwoofer performance level. If you aren't over driving a single XS15se, no need for dual T-18s..

I do agree with you though, it really is a matter of finding the least expensive option that will meet/exceed your target performance metrics.

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post #17195 of 17376 Old 02-22-2015, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
LARGE on the dial is no change to the FR. The more you adjust the dial to SMALL the steeper the (anechoic) deep bass rolloff becomes. The control will work in the same way for all of our products.

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So it only attenuates the low bass, NOT boosts it correct?

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post #17196 of 17376 Old 02-22-2015, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
True. But that can apply to every subwoofer performance level. If you aren't over driving a single XS15se, no need for dual T-18s..

I do agree with you though, it really is a matter of finding the least expensive option that will meet/exceed your target performance metrics.

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Well I really like the dual opposed sealed models so it will probably end up being determined by when and how much the price increases on the S3000i. Just went over my budget plans for paying off my receiver and it looks like I will be able to buy my first sub in September. Then 6 months later purchase a second!

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post #17197 of 17376 Old 02-22-2015, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by mnc View Post
So it only attenuates the low bass, NOT boosts it correct?
Actually we can custom code the DSP to do whatever we want. But you are correct, the room size control will be cut only.

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post #17198 of 17376 Old 02-22-2015, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by mnc View Post
Well I really like the dual opposed sealed models so it will probably end up being determined by when and how much the price increases on the S3000i. Just went over my budget plans for paying off my receiver and it looks like I will be able to buy my first sub in September. Then 6 months later purchase a second!

Really the best value for most scenarios would be the S3000 or even the XS30se. The S3000i is more for the enthusiast who can't sleep at night unless they know they have the latest/greatest last drop of performance in their system. Even if getting there isn't the very best price/performance ratio..

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post #17199 of 17376 Old 02-22-2015, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Really the best value for most scenarios would be the S3000 or even the XS30se. The S3000i is more for the enthusiast who can't sleep at night unless they know they have the latest/greatest last drop of performance in their system. Even if getting there isn't the very best price/performance ratio..

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I'm sure that doesn't apply to anyone here.
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post #17200 of 17376 Old 02-22-2015, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
The roll offs won't be significantly different and the ICE powered model's "room size" control will allow you to dial in a nearly identical FR. Unit to unit cancellation shouldn't be a big concern. The drawback to this is you will use the room size control to optimize unit 2 to unit 1....instead of 1+2 to the room itself(if you had two ICE powered units). The larger the room, the less of an issue this is though as the room size control becomes more useful as the room environment shrinks.


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Ya we didn't make it that far into the chat. I was at work and had to go quickly. .. So basically i would have to adjust the s1500 to match the xs30se's roll off using the room size adjustment knob.

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post #17201 of 17376 Old 02-22-2015, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by xFreshEntrailsX View Post
Ya we didn't make it that far into the chat. I was at work and had to go quickly. .. So basically i would have to adjust the s1500 to match the xs30se's roll off using the room size adjustment knob.
Correct, for 100% optimization between the two subs. Another side benefit would be if the room transfer function caused some "room boom"(boosted FR) in the 10-25hz range. You could experiment with the room size control and likely tame that a little.

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post #17202 of 17376 Old 02-22-2015, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
And there was a member that went from a FV15HP to a SubM and said it was a significant upgrade. Goes to show how subjective opinions are.
As the guy JT was referring to I figured I'd chime in.

I'd bet both me and the guy who upgraded to the SubM are correct: I wasn't pushing the SubM anywhere near its capabilities (-25 on the AVR is usually where I'm at ), so it makes sense that the Rythmik sounds the same to me. I'd guessing the opposite was true for the other guy.
And of course we both probably have confirmation bias at play looking to justify our decisions.

FWIW, when I hooked up my SMS (the limits of my measuring ability), the Rythmik and SubM had similar responses (granted ~80db) in my room. Sadly, that's about as objective as I can get. Whenever Mark gets a SubM out for testing, I suppose we'll have a better idea.

None of this is meant to speak poorly at all on the SubM. Obviously a beast of a sub!

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post #17203 of 17376 Old 02-22-2015, 02:51 PM
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As the guy JT was referring to I figured I'd chime in.

I'd bet both me and the guy who upgraded to the SubM are correct: I wasn't pushing the SubM anywhere near its capabilities (-25 on the AVR is usually where I'm at ), so it makes sense that the Rythmik sounds the same to me. I'd guessing the opposite was true for the other guy.
And of course we both probably have confirmation bias at play looking to justify our decisions.

FWIW, when I hooked up my SMS (the limits of my measuring ability), the Rythmik and SubM had similar responses (granted ~80db) in my room. Sadly, that's about as objective as I can get. Whenever Mark gets a SubM out for testing, I suppose we'll have a better idea.

None of this is meant to speak poorly at all on the SubM. Obviously a beast of a sub!
You're talking about two of the best subs available so your thoughts shouldn't surprise anyone. As you mentioned, the overall volume levels used are a BIG variable in these types of A/B checks. Someone could have the XS15se and the T-18...if you aren't approaching the limits of the XS15se I bet they would sound darn near identical..

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post #17204 of 17376 Old 02-22-2015, 03:27 PM
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Hi, using the Y splitter to connect the subs helps a lot but I still feel something is not completely right, I would like to change it for an XV15se but Toms think it not going to solve anything... here is a graphic from REW with Audessey on and off.
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post #17205 of 17376 Old 02-22-2015, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonathan Pacheco Vasquez View Post
Hi, using the Y splitter to connect the subs helps a lot but I still feel something is not completely right, I would like to change it for an XV15se but Toms think it not going to solve anything... here is a graphic from REW with Audessey on and off.
What are you trying to achieve? That looks pretty darn good to me. Unless that is at maximum volume.


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post #17206 of 17376 Old 02-22-2015, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Pacheco Vasquez View Post
Hi, using the Y splitter to connect the subs helps a lot but I still feel something is not completely right, I would like to change it for an XV15se but Toms think it not going to solve anything... here is a graphic from REW with Audessey on and off.
Hmmm.....what about trading in for a S1500 and using the room control to reduce the lowest frequencies?

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post #17207 of 17376 Old 02-22-2015, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonathan Pacheco Vasquez View Post
Hi, using the Y splitter to connect the subs helps a lot but I still feel something is not completely right, I would like to change it for an XV15se but Toms think it not going to solve anything... here is a graphic from REW with Audessey on and off.
This may not make you feel any better, but I was not satisfied with my XV15 subs either. I was pleasantly surprised when I upgraded to the SE drivers and reprogrammed amp. Tighter, louder, more impact, better mid bad slam. Altogether better in my book. For the record, I have two subs in a 16x32x8 room.
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post #17208 of 17376 Old 02-22-2015, 04:08 PM
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What are you trying to achieve? That looks pretty darn good to me. Unless that is at maximum volume.
What I am trying to archive is the visceral tactile feel in movies and music... if I play a note at 10hz it vibrate the room, you notice this with the projector image moving... but you dont feel it, there is no chest punch at all.
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Hmmm.....what about trading in for a S1500 and using the room control to reduce the lowest frequencies?
Actually I would like to change it for an XV15se, I wonder if a made a mistake for going sealed instead of ported.
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post #17210 of 17376 Old 02-22-2015, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Pacheco Vasquez View Post
What I am trying to archive is the visceral tactile feel in movies and music... if I play a note at 10hz it vibrate the room, you notice this with the projector image moving... but you dont feel it, there is no chest punch at all.


I think you are confused...there is no chest punch at all in the 10-50hz region. The ultra low bass just shakes and pressurizes the room. Chest slam is in the 60-120hz range. a single XS15 will not generate enough output to feel a 10hz note any way. You will need a couple T-18's for that...Also please refrain from using 10hz signals to test your sub.
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post #17211 of 17376 Old 02-22-2015, 04:21 PM
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I thought "chest slam" comes from mid to upper bass. A ported sub shouldn't be any better than a comparable sealed sub. If you were able to slightly reduce the under 25 Hz and increase the overall level that might help.

Edit: you beat me to it basshead!
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post #17212 of 17376 Old 02-22-2015, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
I think you are confused...there is no chest punch at all in the 10-50hz region. The ultra low bass just shakes and pressurizes the room. Chest slam is in the 60-120hz range. a single XS15 will not generate enough output to feel a 10hz note any way. You will need a couple T-18's for that...Also please refrain from using 10hz signals to test your sub.
It was a sweep test at -30db from refence at the lowest frequency the room vibrate but then nothing... my issue is not in the lower bass is in the mid and upper bass
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post #17213 of 17376 Old 02-22-2015, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonathan Pacheco Vasquez View Post
It was a sweep test at -30db from refence at the lowest frequency the room vibrate but then nothing... my issue is not in the lower bass is in the mid and upper bass
That's a pretty low volume to experience "chest slam" in the mid bass region. I'd wager that most people feel that sensation at the -10 dB to -15dB range.

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post #17214 of 17376 Old 02-22-2015, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonathan Pacheco Vasquez View Post
It was a sweep test at -30db from refence at the lowest frequency the room vibrate but then nothing... my issue is not in the lower bass is in the mid and upper bass
What volume are you listening? If it's -15 or less you probably won't get much impact from any sub.
If you are listening closer to reference, you might need a more powerful sub like the xs30se.

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post #17215 of 17376 Old 02-22-2015, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonathan Pacheco Vasquez View Post
It was a sweep test at -30db from refence at the lowest frequency the room vibrate but then nothing... my issue is not in the lower bass is in the mid and upper bass


chest slam takes SPL... -30db from reference will not produce any chest slam. you need about 110db(-10 from reference running +5db hot) in the mid to upper bass to get chest slam...
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It was a sweep test at -30db from refence at the lowest frequency the room vibrate but then nothing... my issue is not in the lower bass is in the mid and upper bass
Unless I missed it! How big is your room? Is it open? And what do you have for your main speakers? And you are aware it takes a lot of SPL to get the chest punch right?
Maybe do a compression test and see how loud you can go before you get into compression.
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Lot of the chest punch is from kick drums which starts at 50 Hz and climbs up.

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Unless I missed it! How big is your room? Is it open? And what do you have for your main speakers? And you are aware it takes a lot of SPL to get the chest punch right?
Maybe do a compression test and see how loud you can go before you get into compression.
Its a dedicated room about 2300cf. My main speakers are polk Rti a5.
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post #17219 of 17376 Old 02-22-2015, 09:32 PM
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Maybe run a sub measurement with LF and another with RF mains to see if there is any cancellations.
Also to see how your subs are playing with those mains.

How much power are you powering those Polks?


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post #17220 of 17376 Old 02-23-2015, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonathan Pacheco Vasquez View Post
Its a dedicated room about 2300cf. My main speakers are polk Rti a5.
My room is about the same size and I'm running dual XS30SE'S, you may want to add more woofage.


How far is the MLP from the XS15SE? I sit 7' 10" from the front of the subs. I would upgrade the XS15SE to either a XS30SE, S3000, S3000I. If you decide to go the ported route I would go with the XV30SE or wait until Tom releases info on the "new" ported model as I have a feeling its going to be a complete beast.

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Xs30 , Velodyne Sms 1 In Room Bass Correction Kit With Included Microphone , Denon Avr 3313ci Receiver , Denon Avr 4520ci Receiver , Power Sound Audio , Xv15 , Power Sound Audio Triax , Room Equilizer Wizard Rew , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver
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