Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 61 - AVS Forum
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post #1801 of 15114 Old 03-27-2013, 02:44 PM
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Alan,

Room is L shaped but t shaped if you count the door opening. The rectangular part is 19x14. Two rows of seats.

Using tripod
Onkyo does not seem to have setting for large or small speakers. At least I think it doesn't
Used SPl meter

I think I have similar issue another member few pages back had. He had mic issue. Boomy low bass and no mid bass punch. Exactly same thing with me. I ordered a new mic but wanted To get more opinions.


I need to learn Rew but I am new to this HT stuff.

The crossover knob is all the way to right.

Thanks guys
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post #1802 of 15114 Old 03-27-2013, 02:54 PM
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guys , i was wondering if a single xv15 is strong enought so u can feel the bass in the chest ... like in the beginning of iron man2 , there is fireworks ... my local store made me listen that part with the f113 ... man it was crazy u could feel the firework explode in your chest ! and the room was really big too !

so i was wondering if a single xv15 in a 3000ftcu room could give u that punch in the chest !? i might buy 2 also , i have enought money . was just asking for 1 cause if 1 does it , 2 will smile.gif


another question , is that punch bass that u can feel in the chest is something sealed sub produce only ? or it have nothing to do with the fact its sealed or not ...
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post #1803 of 15114 Old 03-27-2013, 03:11 PM
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I don't know about the XV15 but I know my XS30's defiantly feel like a punch in the chest.
what you're describing is typically mid-bass, and a sub like XS30 has awesome mid bass.

I'm sure the F113 is a great sub, but for a little over half of the money you could get a single SubMersive HP which IMO will walk all over that JL sub. I don't see why a XV15 or even XS30 wouldn't be able to perform just as good as the JL F113 for movie use.
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post #1804 of 15114 Old 03-27-2013, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp5475 View Post

Hi Alan,

My room is L shaped or T shaped if you count the door opening. The rectangular area is 14 by 19. Two rows of seats.

I have two subs inside of front left and right. One against right lateral wall.

Have used spl meter,
Onkyo does not have a small speaker setting.
I used tripod for the mic.
I have axiom m80 HT

Reading back few pages one member seem to have similar issues. Really low bass is boomy and no mid bass punch. His problem was the mic. I just ordered a new one. But wanted to get more opions.

Thanks for the suggestion. I need to learn how to use rew, but not there yet. I am new to this stuff.

I just looked at your manual, and the Onkyo refers to this setting as "Full Band" (="Large"). So if you have your L/C/R speakers set to "80hz" you should be getting good bass from the subs....hmmm.

Is the bass lacking just at the MLP or everywhere in the room? If just at the MLP, that would indicate a null - if everywhere, there is something definitely wrong somewhere. Like Prime says, even with bad placement, 3 XV15s should still sound pretty dang good.
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post #1805 of 15114 Old 03-27-2013, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp5475 View Post

Hi all. Hope I can get some help. I bought three xv15s recently and using onkyo tx nr709 receiver. I pretty much read this whole forum and tried many things that were suggested here. I ran the audyssey on the receiver and not been too impressed with the LFE. I mainly use mine for HT. some scenes I get pretty good bass, the whole house shakes, per my wife. But in many scenes, it feels weak. I just don't get that pressure in the chest feel. For example, gun shot in avengers feels like nothing. Same scene at my fathers house where he has a cheap Boston 10 inch sub, you can feel very gunshot. I know it's different room etc, but you would think 3 15 inch subs could give me same feel. This has me thinking, it's my receiver and the audyssey. Possibly bad mic?

Also, when I check the subs, the woofer and port barly moves air on many of the scenes. With Boston, it can feel it pushing large amount of air. Is because it 15 inch sub don't have to move much compared to 10 inch?

I have tried sub craw, running the sub hot on receiver and setting the volume to 3 o clock. Filter to bypass both on the subs and receiver. Cross over on the receiver is at 80hz from the LRC.
If i turn the subs too hot, it just gets boomy and uncomfortable but still don't feel pressure change.

Any ideas? Thanks

Avengers IMO isn't a great bass movie. The gunshots to me sounded like turds and cheaply produced. Besides that does your dad run his x-over higher? Is your listening level lower compared to your dads? Don't worry to much about the air in the port, it will blow when it needs to. I once thought that to when I had my XV15 but I found out I just really didn't play my movies loud enough. Your dads 10" is completely different cabinet and design compared to the XV keep in mind, where you feel all this air coming out of your dads sub but I am sure his sub will give out a lot easier an port noise will occur while your XV keeps chugging away. Avengers I believe has a big roll off at 30hz or higher. I bet those gun shots your feeling at your dads are prolly above 80hz in those scenes maybe. But I don't think anyone has graphed the gun shots in that movie as there isn't much bass from it. There are some graphs of the movie in this thread http://www.avsforum.com/t/1333462/the-new-master-list-of-bass-in-movies-with-frequency-charts you can search for to test. Could be room setup or a bad mic. I know 3 o'clock would seem over kill to me. My XV15 when I had it was around 6-7ft from me and it barely touched 1 o'clock. My two XS30s I have now they are prolly 12:30. I'd try sitting in some other seats in replaying the scene to see if you notice any difference. Also make sure your phase is all 0 which I'm sure they are and X-over on the subs are 150 so it uses the AVR x-over. Do you have any large openings in the room where you have the subs located? How far are they away from the MLP(main listening position)?
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post #1806 of 15114 Old 03-27-2013, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

I just looked at your manual, and the Onkyo refers to this setting as "Full Band" (="Large"). So if you have your L/C/R speakers set to "80hz" you should be getting good bass from the subs....hmmm.

Is the bass lacking just at the MLP or everywhere in the room? If just at the MLP, that would indicate a null - if everywhere, there is something definitely wrong somewhere. Like Prime says, even with bad placement, 3 XV15s should still sound pretty dang good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mp5475 View Post

Alan,

Room is L shaped but t shaped if you count the door opening. The rectangular part is 19x14. Two rows of seats.

Using tripod
Onkyo does not seem to have setting for large or small speakers. At least I think it doesn't
Used SPl meter

I think I have similar issue another member few pages back had. He had mic issue. Boomy low bass and no mid bass punch. Exactly same thing with me. I ordered a new mic but wanted To get more opinions.


I need to learn Rew but I am new to this HT stuff.

The crossover knob is all the way to right.

Thanks guys

For starters - I suggest that you review your Audyssey set up procedure. You may want to refer to this file: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14456895#post14456895 for starters. Once you have confirmed that you have followed the correct procedures; i.e. using a tripod or boom mic stand for taking measurements, making certain that you used all 6 mic positions, and then set your speakers to 80 hz. crossover, and LFE at 120, etc - please report back - you should be hearing a pretty impressive sub woofer response once everything is correctly set up.

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post #1807 of 15114 Old 03-27-2013, 05:58 PM
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Hey guys. It does really low frequency fine. When I played war of the worlds, it was ridiculous. It's the mid bass, there is no punch , no pressure change that I have felt with other subs. Small explosion feel like distant thud. Maybe I have wrong expectations? But with three xv15s? These things are monsters.

I did the sub craw and sat at different locations. it pretty much sound the same All over the seating area.

My room is l shaped but no big openings. I even got two monster bass traps from gik thinking this might help. Made no difference from what I can tell. I hope it's the mic.

I have set the cross over at 150 and phase on all subs are 0.
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post #1808 of 15114 Old 03-27-2013, 06:05 PM
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ggsantafe,

I have ran the audyssey about 5 times. Used more than 6 positions every time and use tripod. I always changed the cross over to 80. Audyssey usually sets it at 40hz. And LFE at 120.
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post #1809 of 15114 Old 03-27-2013, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp5475 View Post

Hey guys. It does really low frequency fine. When I played war of the worlds, it was ridiculous. It's the mid bass, there is no punch , no pressure change that I have felt with other subs. Small explosion feel like distant thud. Maybe I have wrong expectations? But with three xv15s? These things are monsters.

I did the sub craw and sat at different locations. it pretty much sound the same All over the seating area.

My room is l shaped but no big openings. I even got two monster bass traps from gik thinking this might help. Made no difference from what I can tell. I hope it's the mic.

I have set the cross over at 150 and phase on all subs are 0.


Turn Audessey off. Set up manually by ear or even iphone/android SPL meter if you have to.

What front 3 speakers are you running? What is your father's setup have for the front three.

Gun shots are not or should not be sub 80hz unless it's a cannon. eek.gif

So the effect from the gun shot should be coming from your speakers. Rent Zero Dark 30. During the raid there are some gunshots that should really hit hard. It did in the theater and it wasn't even that good of a theater.

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post #1810 of 15114 Old 03-27-2013, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp5475 View Post

ggsantafe,

I have ran the audyssey about 5 times. Used more than 6 positions every time and use tripod. I always changed the cross over to 80. Audyssey usually sets it at 40hz. And LFE at 120.

OK - have you enabled Dynamic EQ?

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post #1811 of 15114 Old 03-27-2013, 06:10 PM
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The subs are on average 8 feet away from MLP
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post #1812 of 15114 Old 03-27-2013, 06:11 PM
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Dynamic EQ is on and volume off
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post #1813 of 15114 Old 03-27-2013, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by mp5475 View Post

Dynamic EQ is on and volume off

Well - how about sharing the speaker trims you have on your Onkyo for L/C/R, surrounds & sub woofers - that may help diagnosing your problem

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post #1814 of 15114 Old 03-27-2013, 06:17 PM
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I have axiom epic80. Have tried cross over 100 hz. No difference. Just got dark zero 30 from blockbuster so I try that. I will also try Turing off audyssey but I haven't seen the off setting for it on the onkyo. I look again
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post #1815 of 15114 Old 03-27-2013, 06:19 PM
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Sorry, what do you mean by speaker trim?
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post #1816 of 15114 Old 03-27-2013, 07:23 PM
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Did little experiment. I turned off the sub on the receiver. And used my front axiom m80s without the sub. Much better mid bass! That tells me something is really f- up here. Obviously it's the receiver but what is it? Bad receiver? Bad mic?

I tried turned off the audyssey but didn't sound much better. Where do I go from here?

Sorry guys for too many posts
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post #1817 of 15114 Old 03-27-2013, 07:46 PM
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Dont be sorry for many post , its a forum ... and btw i cant wait to see if you are finding the problem if its the drivers or the amp or w/e , cause i was maybe going to buy 2 xv15s , and one of the thing i really like is the punch in the chest ... so yea ! u made me hang a bit ! lol
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post #1818 of 15114 Old 03-27-2013, 07:56 PM
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I will let you guys know what I figure out. I plan to call onkyo tomorrow. Also preferred another mic.

Nemoreborn,
Per Tom, when I was considering two xs30s vs three xv15s, he think said you get better mids with XVs but get lower with xs.
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post #1819 of 15114 Old 03-27-2013, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp5475 View Post

I will let you guys know what I figure out. I plan to call onkyo tomorrow. Also preferred another mic.

Nemoreborn,
Per Tom, when I was considering two xs30s vs three xv15s, he think said you get better mids with XVs but get lower with xs.

Really? mid bass is about 40hz and up, it takes two XV15's to equal one XS30 in that range. Three XV15's would have roughly 124db if they weren't all located right next to each other.
Two XS30's located right beside each other would have about 128db and about 126db if for example you had one in your left front corner and one if your right front corner.
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post #1820 of 15114 Old 03-27-2013, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by nemoreborn View Post

Dont be sorry for many post , its a forum ... and btw i cant wait to see if you are finding the problem if its the drivers or the amp or w/e , cause i was maybe going to buy 2 xv15s , and one of the thing i really like is the punch in the chest ... so yea ! u made me hang a bit ! lol

Can't speak to the issues MP5475 is obviously experiecncing, but if it's punch-in-the-chest you are after, the XV15s have them aplenty!! I know, I just hooked up my second one and ran Anthem room correction. These things are deadly when set up right. Never felt anything like it. Deep and tight is all I have to say. Oh, and loads of output too.
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post #1821 of 15114 Old 03-27-2013, 08:59 PM
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This what Tom said

"The extension capabilities remain the same when adding multiples of the same subwoofer. However, you will gain headroom(clean output capabilities). Just how much headroom is dependent on the placement of the subwoofers. But, on average, you will see about 3dB more output when going from two subs to three. I would break it down like this.

Extension: Dual XS30s 8-11hz. Triple XV15s 15-17hz

Low bass(15-40hz) output. The Triple XV15s will have a 2-4dB advantage
Upper bass(40-100hz) It would be almost exactly the same.

In either scenario, you would have so much output that I don't believe you would notice a significant advantage either way"

So I guess I was wrong. Three xv does better in low bass but dual xs does better on low low bass. Upper is very similar.

Just got to figure out what is wrong with my reciever
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post #1822 of 15114 Old 03-27-2013, 09:00 PM
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atabea, which Anthem receiver do you have?
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post #1823 of 15114 Old 03-27-2013, 09:03 PM
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He also said this. Why I got three XV15s instead of two xs30

3 XV15s have the potential to provide more energy in the 16-40hz range. But it will depend on the placement to a large degree. Will you be able to place two of the XV15 near one another? If so they will act as a single large enclosure (which is a good thing!). Assuming you can place two near one another, and use the third to even out the bass coverage at the key seating I'd estimate the three XV15s will have a 2.5 to 3dB advantage in the 16-40hz range. From 40-80hz it will be just about even. Above 80hz the dual XS30s will gain a slight edge.

Once you have the triple XV15s optimally placed and get the phase dialed in I believe you would find them to provide more tactile bass on almost all DVDs. Only with the very, very rare DVD that offers a few seconds of strong bass under 15hz would the XS30s have any type of real advantage.

If I were choosing based solely on performance I'd lean toward the XV15s. The frequency range were they have the advantage (16-40hz) is much more common and noticeable.
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post #1824 of 15114 Old 03-27-2013, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

atabea, which Anthem receiver do you have?

jbrown, I have the MRX500.
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post #1825 of 15114 Old 03-27-2013, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp5475 View Post

This what Tom said

"The extension capabilities remain the same when adding multiples of the same subwoofer. However, you will gain headroom(clean output capabilities). Just how much headroom is dependent on the placement of the subwoofers. But, on average, you will see about 3dB more output when going from two subs to three. I would break it down like this.

Extension: Dual XS30s 8-11hz. Triple XV15s 15-17hz

Low bass(15-40hz) output. The Triple XV15s will have a 2-4dB advantage
Upper bass(40-100hz) It would be almost exactly the same.

In either scenario, you would have so much output that I don't believe you would notice a significant advantage either way"

So I guess I was wrong. Three xv does better in low bass but dual xs does better on low low bass. Upper is very similar.

Just got to figure out what is wrong with my reciever

Yes they would almost be the same, but the XS30's would still have a slight advantage in 40hz and up and there's where you'll hear mid-bass.
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post

jbrown, I have the MRX500.

I've been considering getting a MRX700 or a Denon AVR-4520. Just trying to decide which to get, so how good of a job does the MRX500 do with two subs? How does it EQ them compared to Audessey XT32?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Hi all,

I'm sure I've missed a couple of questions but I'll catch up tonight.

UPDATE---Shipments begin again today! (i know---and there was much rejoicing...)

We expedited a partial shipment(couple of pallets) of 15" drivers in from Nevada which arrived today. We have a much larger shipment due to arrive mid next week.

All back orders should be fulfilled by the end of next week.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Wooooooohoooooo!!!!! Can't wait to get mine.

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mp5475,
I may have missed a couple posts so sorry if I repeat something that's been said or you tried. I think you may be having an integration problem. However there's definitely an issue, those subs will give some serious output. BTW is your room open and how high are the ceilings? I didn't see your crossover setting, which may help, and I didn't see which version of audyssey you have (XT, XT32, other). Does it have SubEQHT? How are you hooking up three subs? I assume a Y connector or two?

Some points on my thoughts
- You said the sub crawl sounded the same "all over the seating position"...hmmm does not compute. When you do a sub crawl put a sub at your MLP, play the AVR test tone, and you crawl around the room with the SPL around the woofer height taking note of SPL at various location where the subs can be placed. The SPL's will move around and you need three good spots.
-You could be having phase issues, that's not easy to correct simply with the phase nobs. You also mentioned the "average distance". thus I take it to mean they are different distances and I don't think you have 3 independent distance settings. If you were in an anechoic chamber with two subs putting out equal energy perfectly out of phase, you would hear nothing.
-To get phase right for multiple subs you set audyssey distance to the furthest sub, then you introduce delay to the closer subs.
-Check out gain matching, search for a post by craig john
-Multiple subs are not easy to integrate do some research
-REW and measurement gear is one of the best investments you can make in your system. Omnimic's a good alternative.
-Any way you can get the subs equidistant to main listening position (MLP)?
-Find and download test toes which include sine waves at particular frequencies, I'm going to recommend 80Hz for your crossover so you need that one.
-trying different positions will have a big impact, hard to rate them though without measurement gear

Quick start recommendations - start simple
-first unhook all the subs except furthest, play the AVR test tone and set the sub gain higher then 75db with the SPL meter nearfiled, say 82db when measured about 3 in from the woofer with woofer in center of room.
-set the gain on all the subs to that same gain value (really you should gain match them all but this is a close approx)
-Put the sub in the furthest location resting spot., still only that one hooked up, run audyssey minimal run, note the distance and sub trim setting. The AVR just got the distance(meaning phase) pretty good for that one sub
-Change the crossover on the AVR to 80Hz (which on non onkyo avr's means you have to set speaker to small, just terminology difference), keep sub crossover all the way up, phase 0
-play some stuff, how does it sound, audyssey level matched for you with the mains and it is in phase, should sound pretty good
-try to get sub 2 equidistant to sub one, if you can, Y splitter hookup, phase nob 0 on sub, Y split, hook it up.
-rerun audyssey minimal run, distance should not change and if so not much, sub trim should be lower, 3-6 db lower
-Change the crossover on the AVR to 80Hz, keep sub crossover all the way up, phase 0
-If you can get all 3 equidistant repeat sub 2 steps for sub three, last audyssey run do full run, don't move the mic all over the place, keep within a couple feet of MLP always at ear height unless you have high back couch then a little higher.

I assume you can't get all three equidistant so
-after one hooked up and playing nice, or two if they are equidistant (and crossover on AVR 80Hz)
-you get the furthest sub right, then next closest and run these procedures, then repeat for closest
-hookup additional sub
-play sine wave at the crossover frequency (80 Hz) and adjust phase/distance (Im assuming you have no independent distance setting so you will use phase nob on sub)
-with SPL meter in C-weighted slow mode, put that at MLP ear height and tweak phase until meter gives highest SPL value, a helper is good here obviously
-rerun audyssey, how far off is distance from original distance? I think I'd put it back to original distance but experiment with that.

If you ever need to adjust gain on the sub to get AVR sub trim reasonable, adjust it on all sub equally, you want them putting out equal energy and working equally as hard, and getting to their limits at the same time.
All this is much easier with measurement gear
This post is so sloppy, sorry, I'm hurrying got to get to work. I'll check back in tonight.

Patience, you have fabulous gear. It'll sound great once it is all integrated nicely.
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post #1829 of 15114 Old 03-28-2013, 05:39 AM
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Oh, and your speakers and how they interact with your room may have really boomy mid/lower mid bass, so you may just not be used to what lavel calibrated quality bass sounds like.
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post #1830 of 15114 Old 03-28-2013, 07:59 AM
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Dstew100, thx for all the suggestions. I tried some of those but I will try again.

To answer some of your questions.
My room is l shaped but closed. 9 foot ceiling
Cross over at 80
Running audyssey xt
Tx nr709 has two sub outs. So one y cable
When I said no sig difference when I do sub craw, I meant I can hear the null but at MLP sounds good.
I tried the one sub one calib with spl meter and adding the sub two and three. But I will try your suggestion.

Question,
My problem is that I am getting really crappy mid bass. Low stuff I can hear and sounds good.. Especially when I turn the LRC off. But explosions sound like distant thud with no pressure. But when I turn off the sub from receiver And go full band on my LRC, much better mid bass/ over all bass then with my three xv15s. Makes no sense to me.

I am looking into REW. Is ominimic all inclusive with software and hardware? REW is free but have to get the mic right?
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Xs30 , Velodyne Sms 1 In Room Bass Correction Kit With Included Microphone , Denon Avr 3313ci Receiver , Denon Avr 4520ci Receiver , Power Sound Audio , Xv15 , Power Sound Audio Triax , Room Equilizer Wizard Rew , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver
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