Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 61 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1801 of 31473 Old 03-27-2013, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by nemoreborn View Post

Dont be sorry for many post , its a forum ... and btw i cant wait to see if you are finding the problem if its the drivers or the amp or w/e , cause i was maybe going to buy 2 xv15s , and one of the thing i really like is the punch in the chest ... so yea ! u made me hang a bit ! lol

Can't speak to the issues MP5475 is obviously experiecncing, but if it's punch-in-the-chest you are after, the XV15s have them aplenty!! I know, I just hooked up my second one and ran Anthem room correction. These things are deadly when set up right. Never felt anything like it. Deep and tight is all I have to say. Oh, and loads of output too.
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post #1802 of 31473 Old 03-27-2013, 08:59 PM
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This what Tom said

"The extension capabilities remain the same when adding multiples of the same subwoofer. However, you will gain headroom(clean output capabilities). Just how much headroom is dependent on the placement of the subwoofers. But, on average, you will see about 3dB more output when going from two subs to three. I would break it down like this.

Extension: Dual XS30s 8-11hz. Triple XV15s 15-17hz

Low bass(15-40hz) output. The Triple XV15s will have a 2-4dB advantage
Upper bass(40-100hz) It would be almost exactly the same.

In either scenario, you would have so much output that I don't believe you would notice a significant advantage either way"

So I guess I was wrong. Three xv does better in low bass but dual xs does better on low low bass. Upper is very similar.

Just got to figure out what is wrong with my reciever
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post #1803 of 31473 Old 03-27-2013, 09:00 PM
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atabea, which Anthem receiver do you have?
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post #1804 of 31473 Old 03-27-2013, 09:03 PM
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He also said this. Why I got three XV15s instead of two xs30

3 XV15s have the potential to provide more energy in the 16-40hz range. But it will depend on the placement to a large degree. Will you be able to place two of the XV15 near one another? If so they will act as a single large enclosure (which is a good thing!). Assuming you can place two near one another, and use the third to even out the bass coverage at the key seating I'd estimate the three XV15s will have a 2.5 to 3dB advantage in the 16-40hz range. From 40-80hz it will be just about even. Above 80hz the dual XS30s will gain a slight edge.

Once you have the triple XV15s optimally placed and get the phase dialed in I believe you would find them to provide more tactile bass on almost all DVDs. Only with the very, very rare DVD that offers a few seconds of strong bass under 15hz would the XS30s have any type of real advantage.

If I were choosing based solely on performance I'd lean toward the XV15s. The frequency range were they have the advantage (16-40hz) is much more common and noticeable.
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post #1805 of 31473 Old 03-27-2013, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

atabea, which Anthem receiver do you have?

jbrown, I have the MRX500.
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post #1806 of 31473 Old 03-27-2013, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by mp5475 View Post

This what Tom said

"The extension capabilities remain the same when adding multiples of the same subwoofer. However, you will gain headroom(clean output capabilities). Just how much headroom is dependent on the placement of the subwoofers. But, on average, you will see about 3dB more output when going from two subs to three. I would break it down like this.

Extension: Dual XS30s 8-11hz. Triple XV15s 15-17hz

Low bass(15-40hz) output. The Triple XV15s will have a 2-4dB advantage
Upper bass(40-100hz) It would be almost exactly the same.

In either scenario, you would have so much output that I don't believe you would notice a significant advantage either way"

So I guess I was wrong. Three xv does better in low bass but dual xs does better on low low bass. Upper is very similar.

Just got to figure out what is wrong with my reciever

Yes they would almost be the same, but the XS30's would still have a slight advantage in 40hz and up and there's where you'll hear mid-bass.
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post #1807 of 31473 Old 03-27-2013, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by atabea View Post

jbrown, I have the MRX500.

I've been considering getting a MRX700 or a Denon AVR-4520. Just trying to decide which to get, so how good of a job does the MRX500 do with two subs? How does it EQ them compared to Audessey XT32?
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post #1808 of 31473 Old 03-27-2013, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Hi all,

I'm sure I've missed a couple of questions but I'll catch up tonight.

UPDATE---Shipments begin again today! (i know---and there was much rejoicing...)

We expedited a partial shipment(couple of pallets) of 15" drivers in from Nevada which arrived today. We have a much larger shipment due to arrive mid next week.

All back orders should be fulfilled by the end of next week.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Wooooooohoooooo!!!!! Can't wait to get mine.

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post #1809 of 31473 Old 03-28-2013, 05:36 AM
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mp5475,
I may have missed a couple posts so sorry if I repeat something that's been said or you tried. I think you may be having an integration problem. However there's definitely an issue, those subs will give some serious output. BTW is your room open and how high are the ceilings? I didn't see your crossover setting, which may help, and I didn't see which version of audyssey you have (XT, XT32, other). Does it have SubEQHT? How are you hooking up three subs? I assume a Y connector or two?

Some points on my thoughts
- You said the sub crawl sounded the same "all over the seating position"...hmmm does not compute. When you do a sub crawl put a sub at your MLP, play the AVR test tone, and you crawl around the room with the SPL around the woofer height taking note of SPL at various location where the subs can be placed. The SPL's will move around and you need three good spots.
-You could be having phase issues, that's not easy to correct simply with the phase nobs. You also mentioned the "average distance". thus I take it to mean they are different distances and I don't think you have 3 independent distance settings. If you were in an anechoic chamber with two subs putting out equal energy perfectly out of phase, you would hear nothing.
-To get phase right for multiple subs you set audyssey distance to the furthest sub, then you introduce delay to the closer subs.
-Check out gain matching, search for a post by craig john
-Multiple subs are not easy to integrate do some research
-REW and measurement gear is one of the best investments you can make in your system. Omnimic's a good alternative.
-Any way you can get the subs equidistant to main listening position (MLP)?
-Find and download test toes which include sine waves at particular frequencies, I'm going to recommend 80Hz for your crossover so you need that one.
-trying different positions will have a big impact, hard to rate them though without measurement gear

Quick start recommendations - start simple
-first unhook all the subs except furthest, play the AVR test tone and set the sub gain higher then 75db with the SPL meter nearfiled, say 82db when measured about 3 in from the woofer with woofer in center of room.
-set the gain on all the subs to that same gain value (really you should gain match them all but this is a close approx)
-Put the sub in the furthest location resting spot., still only that one hooked up, run audyssey minimal run, note the distance and sub trim setting. The AVR just got the distance(meaning phase) pretty good for that one sub
-Change the crossover on the AVR to 80Hz (which on non onkyo avr's means you have to set speaker to small, just terminology difference), keep sub crossover all the way up, phase 0
-play some stuff, how does it sound, audyssey level matched for you with the mains and it is in phase, should sound pretty good
-try to get sub 2 equidistant to sub one, if you can, Y splitter hookup, phase nob 0 on sub, Y split, hook it up.
-rerun audyssey minimal run, distance should not change and if so not much, sub trim should be lower, 3-6 db lower
-Change the crossover on the AVR to 80Hz, keep sub crossover all the way up, phase 0
-If you can get all 3 equidistant repeat sub 2 steps for sub three, last audyssey run do full run, don't move the mic all over the place, keep within a couple feet of MLP always at ear height unless you have high back couch then a little higher.

I assume you can't get all three equidistant so
-after one hooked up and playing nice, or two if they are equidistant (and crossover on AVR 80Hz)
-you get the furthest sub right, then next closest and run these procedures, then repeat for closest
-hookup additional sub
-play sine wave at the crossover frequency (80 Hz) and adjust phase/distance (Im assuming you have no independent distance setting so you will use phase nob on sub)
-with SPL meter in C-weighted slow mode, put that at MLP ear height and tweak phase until meter gives highest SPL value, a helper is good here obviously
-rerun audyssey, how far off is distance from original distance? I think I'd put it back to original distance but experiment with that.

If you ever need to adjust gain on the sub to get AVR sub trim reasonable, adjust it on all sub equally, you want them putting out equal energy and working equally as hard, and getting to their limits at the same time.
All this is much easier with measurement gear
This post is so sloppy, sorry, I'm hurrying got to get to work. I'll check back in tonight.

Patience, you have fabulous gear. It'll sound great once it is all integrated nicely.
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post #1810 of 31473 Old 03-28-2013, 05:39 AM
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Oh, and your speakers and how they interact with your room may have really boomy mid/lower mid bass, so you may just not be used to what lavel calibrated quality bass sounds like.
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post #1811 of 31473 Old 03-28-2013, 07:59 AM
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Dstew100, thx for all the suggestions. I tried some of those but I will try again.

To answer some of your questions.
My room is l shaped but closed. 9 foot ceiling
Cross over at 80
Running audyssey xt
Tx nr709 has two sub outs. So one y cable
When I said no sig difference when I do sub craw, I meant I can hear the null but at MLP sounds good.
I tried the one sub one calib with spl meter and adding the sub two and three. But I will try your suggestion.

Question,
My problem is that I am getting really crappy mid bass. Low stuff I can hear and sounds good.. Especially when I turn the LRC off. But explosions sound like distant thud with no pressure. But when I turn off the sub from receiver And go full band on my LRC, much better mid bass/ over all bass then with my three xv15s. Makes no sense to me.

I am looking into REW. Is ominimic all inclusive with software and hardware? REW is free but have to get the mic right?
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post #1812 of 31473 Old 03-28-2013, 08:39 AM
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Can anyone offer some insight on a pair of XV15s versus a single Funk Audio 18.1?

They would be approximately the same price for me being in Canada and having to pay more for cross-border fees. My living room is 14x20, but is very open and includes the kitchen and dining room which makes it more like 28x20. I have a FA 15.0 now and am happy with it, but really believe that either a second or larger sub would make enough difference to justify the expense. I would prefer to buy from Nathan as he is local and very helpful, but maybe the XV15s offer the better bang-for-my-buck.
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post #1813 of 31473 Old 03-28-2013, 08:48 AM
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^^^

Why not another FA 15? Two matching subs is your best bet when integrating multiples.
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post #1814 of 31473 Old 03-28-2013, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

^^^

Why not another FA 15? Two matching subs is your best bet when integrating multiples.

cost. The 15.0 would likely be resold. Plus, I think a ported cabinet is better suited for my room.
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post #1815 of 31473 Old 03-28-2013, 09:13 AM
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Hi dstew,

I tried to reply but my first responce didnt get posted.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I have tried many of those suggestions but will try again

To answer your quesions

my room is L shaped
9 ft celings
audyssey eq
cross over at 80hz
receiver has two sub outs so one y connector
when i said, no change when i do subcraw, I meant it sounds good at the MLP. I can hear the nulls at different locations but with three subs, pretty even from what I can hear.

I have tried to add one sub then sub 2 and 3 but made no difference. I will try again
I did gain matching and read the article

All the sub at set to same volume, LPF, and phase 0

right now, I have two subs inside of R and L speakers. on against right wall. Tom suggested two adjacent to another on the right front and one the right wall. I tried that but it didnt make any diffrerence.


If subs were not integrated well, would it explain the lack of mid bass that I am getting? I am getting the low bass, my whole house shakes during pod scene in war of the worlds. But guns shots or explosions sound like weak thuds. sound like weak thuds.

Also when I turned off the sub on the receiver, so wideband to LRC, I was getting much better mid bass from LRC and over all bass then when I have the subs on. Which does not make any sense to me. It seems to be more of receiver issue or audyssey issue

It seems REW and buying a mic would be alot cheaper than omnimic($300) but is REW difficult to use?

Thanks
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Originally Posted by mp5475 View Post

It seems REW and buying a mic would be alot cheaper than omnimic($300) but is REW difficult to use?

Getting to know how to use it.....yes. Yes, there is what one might call a steep learning curve. And yes, it can be very frustrating learning the setup and interface. But after learning how to use it, it's set your gear up, point and click. So absolutely, once one is acclimated to the interface, it's not difficult to use at all.

Example. Currently at our place, the measuring gear (microphone and cables) is all in place but everything is shut down and disconnected; cold start. From this moment, if I were to stop typing and wanted to take room measurements, it would take an unhurried five minutes to turn the AVR/subwoofer system on, hook things up, make a few AVR/computer setting changes and voila, I'd be making room measurements.

The first few times, due to a lack of familiarity, it's a bit confusing getting things up and running as in; okay, what did I forget to do? It was working an hour ago. But after a few practice starts, it becomes habit and takes but a few uncomplicated minutes to get thing up and running. So no. Once one is familiar with everything, it's not hard to use at all.
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post #1817 of 31473 Old 03-28-2013, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Getting to know how to use it.....yes. Yes, there is what one might call a steep learning curve. And yes, it can be very frustrating learning the setup and interface. But after learning how to use it, it's set your gear up, point and click. So absolutely, once one is acclimated to the interface, it's not difficult to use at all.

Example. Currently at our place, the measuring gear (microphone and cables) is all in place but everything is shut down and disconnected; cold start. From this moment, if I were to stop typing and wanted to take room measurements, it would take an unhurried five minutes to turn the AVR/subwoofer system on, hook things up, make a few AVR/computer setting changes and voila, I'd be making room measurements.

The first few times, due to a lack of familiarity, it's a bit confusing getting things up and running as in; okay, what did I forget to do? It was working an hour ago. But after a few practice starts, it becomes habit and takes but a few uncomplicated minutes to get thing up and running. So no. Once one is familiar with everything, it's not hard to use at all.

There is an entire thread dedicated to helping you to learn how to utilize REW. I started from scratch, with no measuring ability beyond setting up an Audyssey mic & taking measurements.. Be patient, take your time, experiment, and consult the thread and you should be able to generate meaningful measurements that help you really see what's going on in your room. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs

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post #1818 of 31473 Old 03-28-2013, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by mp5475 View Post


Also when I turned off the sub on the receiver, so wideband to LRC, I was getting much better mid bass from LRC and over all bass then when I have the subs on. Which does not make any sense to me. It seems to be more of receiver issue or audyssey issue

This is strange. You should be getting the same mid-bass whether or not the subs are on. Have you tried a crossover lower than 80hz on your L/R/C speakers? What does that sound like?
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post #1819 of 31473 Old 03-28-2013, 11:50 AM
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Alan,

I tried 40 and 60hz. Sounds different, more bass from LRC, but not much better overall
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post #1820 of 31473 Old 03-28-2013, 11:53 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ggsantafe View Post

There is an entire thread dedicated to helping you to learn how to utilize REW. I started from scratch, with no measuring ability beyond setting up an Audyssey mic & taking measurements.. Be patient, take your time, experiment, and consult the thread and you should be able to generate meaningful measurements that help you really see what's going on in your room. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs

confused.gif I'm not having any trouble getting meaningful measurements. confused.gif

Today's final measurement: no smoothing applied.



You quoted my post and stated "you." Were you referring to me or the person I posted to? Either which way, based on personal experience, my comments were true and accurate as to what I was sharing.

I just finished running a set of measurements and now that I'm long familiar with REW, the measurement secession was nothing more then connecting things, turning things on, affecting a few setting changes, then point and click. Now I await the arrival of some new damping material (should be here on Saturday) so I can see what difference the new damping material will make in comparative (before-n-after) measurements.

Lots and lots of baby steps. cool.gif

-
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post #1821 of 31473 Old 03-28-2013, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by mp5475 View Post

Alan,

I tried 40 and 60hz. Sounds different, more bass from LRC, but not much better overall

This may have already been mentioned, but do you have the "LPF of LFE" setting in your AVR set to 120hz?

Have you tried turning the "Double Bass" setting on? Your "Front" must be set to "Full Band" for this to work correctly.

Subwoofer phase on the subs and in the AVR is set to "0"?
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post #1822 of 31473 Old 03-28-2013, 12:50 PM
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Its on LPF not 120.
Yes. I tried double bass and it did sound better but not as good as turning off the subs and only using LRC
Phase is 0
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post #1823 of 31473 Old 03-28-2013, 12:55 PM
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Its on LPF not 120.
Yes. I tried double bass and it did sound better but not as good as turning off the subs and only using LRC
Phase is 0

Not sure what you mean by the above in bold. According to your AVR's manual, page 47, you only have the following choices for the "LPF of LFE" setting: 80hz, 90hz, 100hz, 120hz, Bypass.
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post #1824 of 31473 Old 03-28-2013, 01:00 PM
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My fault. It's on bypass. This is what I want, right?
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post #1825 of 31473 Old 03-28-2013, 02:08 PM
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No sir, you want it on 120hz. This may be the solution! biggrin.gif
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post #1826 of 31473 Old 03-28-2013, 02:09 PM
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Well, I guess I finally made the leap and changed from a pair of XS30's to a pair of XV30's. Whoever got my XS's that shipped out today, grats!

Now the new wait begins smile.gif

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post #1827 of 31473 Old 03-28-2013, 02:26 PM
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I going to feel really stupid if that was the reason! I will try it when I get home tonight.Thx
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post #1828 of 31473 Old 03-28-2013, 02:38 PM
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Well, I guess I finally made the leap and changed from a pair of XS30's to a pair of XV30's. Whoever got my XS's that shipped out today, grats!

Now the new wait begins smile.gif

If you don't mind me asking, what was the reason for the switch?

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post #1829 of 31473 Old 03-28-2013, 02:54 PM
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I going to feel really stupid if that was the reason! I will try it when I get home tonight.Thx

Hmmm...since I wasn't sure what the "Bypass" setting might do I did some searching and this may not be the answer after all. If seems that if the LPF of LFE is set to "Bypass" it most likely is almost the same thing as setting it as high as it will go (120hz).

See this post.
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post #1830 of 31473 Old 03-28-2013, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

Hmmm...since I wasn't sure what the "Bypass" setting might do I did some searching and this may not be the answer after all. If seems that if the LPF of LFE is set to "Bypass" it most likely is almost the same thing as setting it as high as it will go (120hz).

See this post.

thats what i tought , setting to bypass actualy is the same as setting it to 120hz , i mean for the mid bass range ... ( both are activated - not filter ) so it should not do anything to help this case ..
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