Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 625 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #18721 of 30022 Old 04-21-2015, 08:51 AM
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ahblaza, you're getting some nice extension there. I think, as Brian mentioned, it is time to add some room treatments.

I did that about a year ago - a few foam squares to start, and noticed a small difference. After treating it a bit more, it was a dramatic difference, really.

Head over to ATS, GIK Acoustics or Real Traps. You can make the treatments yourself (Owen Corning 703, for example, and a trip to home depot for lumber) or simply buy them, ready to go. Some can be expensive, but they are very, very worth it.

Don't discourage! You have some fantastic gear... just add some acoustic treatments
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Yippee-ki-yay...
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post #18722 of 30022 Old 04-21-2015, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by cesar123 View Post
ahblaza, you're getting some nice extension there. I think, as Brian mentioned, it is time to add some room treatments.

I did that about a year ago - a few foam squares to start, and noticed a small difference. After treating it a bit more, it was a dramatic difference, really.

Head over to ATS, GIK Acoustics or Real Traps. You can make the treatments yourself (Owen Corning 703, for example, and a trip to home depot for lumber) or simply buy them, ready to go. Some can be expensive, but they are very, very worth it.

Don't discourage! You have some fantastic gear... just add some acoustic treatments
I did the same this year, in my new HT, 300$ worth of acoustical treatments made wonders for the clarity of sound.
I had to fiddle with settings, turn center channel hot to be able to hear/understand the spoken word, bass was boomy, but with some absorption and bass trapping, everything cleared up.
Best 300 $ you can use on your space, and another thing, people often chase the better and better sound, and don't like how their sub or speakers work and look for an upgrade, at the same time not treating the room. Acoustics plays such a big role in what we hear within the small spaces such as HT's are.
Check the pics of my room with treatments in my sign line. I used GIK acoustics.
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My HT: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...l#post32691273

Last edited by sinisanav; 04-21-2015 at 01:39 PM.
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post #18723 of 30022 Old 04-21-2015, 01:26 PM
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I used GIK acoustics.
Thanks. I submitted pics and details on their acoustic advice form.
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post #18724 of 30022 Old 04-21-2015, 01:47 PM
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Hey is it true that I can use the UMIK-1 with my iPad?
You can yes, but the review I read of a guy who tested this out did not give me great confidence that the results would be as accurate as using a laptop.
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post #18725 of 30022 Old 04-21-2015, 02:54 PM
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Something Jim and I have been discussing/working on for a while now.

Dual 18s, 1700w of ICE power, vented. Still a work in progress but here is one proto type. The final form will certainly be smaller.

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I've been expecting to see some sort of replacement for the XV30FSE.
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post #18726 of 30022 Old 04-21-2015, 04:29 PM
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^^ you also need to name your measurements. You will not remember if you just left them as the date/time stamps. As I mentioned before, concentrate on subs and/or center + subs in the 7-150hz region. Your speakers FR look good. On your compression sweeps, we need to know how much higher on your MV from one graph to another. You could name your measurements as -15MV, -10MV, etc...You mentioned you stopped at -20MV on sweeps, your FR on this sweep should be centered around 95dbs if measured with-3db FS in REW. Your highest sweep seems to be centered around 105-110db unless you run your subs 10db hotter or audyssey didnot set your subs level correctly.
Tony, you really think the speakers look good, I've been moving and changing things around all day and plan on measuring all night. I will concentrate on the subs and / or c + Subs in the 7-150Hz range, I'm getting tremendous extension and output down low. Everything just sounded so good until I started taking FR sweeps of everything. OK with the sweeps you said I should have been at 95dB at -20, so then at -30 I should be at 85 dB, I will adjust gain on the sub(s) to be 85dB when MV is set to -30, this way I should be in the right range.

I don't run my subs 10 hot, so I want -3dB FS in REW CH 4 subs set to bypass so all I'm measuring is my sub(s) correct. I wonder if you could help me here, I want to lower my UMIK-1 gain from 18dB to 12dB, Jerry said this is where most of the guys use on the REW forum. I know I have to physically change the settings in the mic itself and the Sens Factor by -6dB.

Here's what it looks like now and after I change the SENS FACTOR, please tell me if I did it right, it's not a permanent change yet, I wanted to see if this is the correct way to do it (subtracting -6dB from the original cal sens factor.
"Sens Factor =0.6814dB, SERNO: 7005070" After change "Sens Factor =-5.3186dB, SERNO: 7005070" correct?

Thanks Tony for all the help and encouragement, how does that sub only graph look, I would like to get like that before any RC.

Cheers Jeff
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post #18727 of 30022 Old 04-21-2015, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by cesar123 View Post
ahblaza, you're getting some nice extension there. I think, as Brian mentioned, it is time to add some room treatments.

I did that about a year ago - a few foam squares to start, and noticed a small difference. After treating it a bit more, it was a dramatic difference, really.

Head over to ATS, GIK Acoustics or Real Traps. You can make the treatments yourself (Owen Corning 703, for example, and a trip to home depot for lumber) or simply buy them, ready to go. Some can be expensive, but they are very, very worth it.

Don't discourage! You have some fantastic gear... just add some acoustic treatments
Cesar, how do I know where to put them and what type to use, I'm going to try some radical moves tonight and post results, my stuff sounds too good to measure so poorly..........seriously.
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post #18728 of 30022 Old 04-21-2015, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ you also need to name your measurements. You will not remember if you just left them as the date/time stamps. As I mentioned before, concentrate on subs and/or center + subs in the 7-150hz region. Your speakers FR look good. On your compression sweeps, we need to know how much higher on your MV from one graph to another. You could name your measurements as -15MV, -10MV, etc...You mentioned you stopped at -20MV on sweeps, your FR on this sweep should be centered around 95dbs if measured with-3db FS in REW. Your highest sweep seems to be centered around 105-110db unless you run your subs 10db hotter or audyssey didnot set your subs level correctly.
Tony, how do you NAME them, I thought I did on the top of the graph, so you can name them on the bottom where the date and dB value are? TIA
Cheers Jeff
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post #18729 of 30022 Old 04-21-2015, 04:50 PM
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Tony, how do you NAME them, I thought I did on the top of the graph, so you can name them on the bottom where the date and dB value are? TIA
Cheers Jeff

Here Jeff.

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post #18730 of 30022 Old 04-21-2015, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Cesar, how do I know where to put them and what type to use, I'm going to try some radical moves tonight and post results, my stuff sounds too good to measure so poorly..........seriously.
Bass traps go at the intersection of boundaries - corners, wall to floor, wall to ceiling.

For the higher frequencies, you want to treat the first reflection points. A good way to find those points is with the mirror test (sit in the MLP and have someone slide a mirror along the wall, when you can see the speaker that is the first reflection point).

This is very very basic, but will get you started. For more info, visit GIK Acoustics site....they have a lot of good info there.
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post #18731 of 30022 Old 04-21-2015, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Tony, you really think the speakers look good, I've been moving and changing things around all day and plan on measuring all night. I will concentrate on the subs and / or c + Subs in the 7-150Hz range, I'm getting tremendous extension and output down low. Everything just sounded so good until I started taking FR sweeps of everything. OK with the sweeps you said I should have been at 95dB at -20, so then at -30 I should be at 85 dB, I will adjust gain on the sub(s) to be 85dB when MV is set to -30, this way I should be in the right range.

I don't run my subs 10 hot, so I want -3dB FS in REW CH 4 subs set to bypass so all I'm measuring is my sub(s) correct. I wonder if you could help me here, I want to lower my UMIK-1 gain from 18dB to 12dB, Jerry said this is where most of the guys use on the REW forum. I know I have to physically change the settings in the mic itself and the Sens Factor by -6dB.

Here's what it looks like now and after I change the SENS FACTOR, please tell me if I did it right, it's not a permanent change yet, I wanted to see if this is the correct way to do it (subtracting -6dB from the original cal sens factor.
"Sens Factor =0.6814dB, SERNO: 7005070" After change "Sens Factor =-5.3186dB, SERNO: 7005070" correct?

Thanks Tony for all the help and encouragement, how does that sub only graph look, I would like to get like that before any RC.

Cheers Jeff
I think the speakers are looking good as well. The subs, not so much...although kind of hard to tell because they look better in some graphs than others but the graphs aren't consistent.

Yes, that is exactly how you would adjust the sens factor. To check it, output Speaker Cal Pink Noise to the CC from REW at -30db at MV0 and it should register 75db on the SPL meter (85db if outputting to CH4/LFE).
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post #18732 of 30022 Old 04-21-2015, 05:03 PM
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Jeff,
You do not need to lower your umik gain as long as you don't get REW clipping measuring at high output level (0MV for example if audyssey set your level correctly). People, who lower the gain on umik have subs that can play above 125db which I don't think your subs pair can. Here is the run down for what you need and leave your mic alone:
1. Run at least one Audyssey position at MLP.
2. Verify if Audyssey set levels correctly by:
a) set your receiver volume to -30
b) run REW measurements with -3dbFS (I would always leave it at this -3dbFS) with hdmi1, then 2, then 3 for from 7-18000hz. Your three graphs here should be centered around 75db (use 1/6 smoothing to view). If they are not, raise or lower your left, right and center speakers and repeat this step till graphs show 75db average. Repeat the same step with hdmi 4 measurement (measure from 7-200 or 300hz). This graph should be centered around 85db. If not, use receiver sub trims to raise or lower the subs, measure again till graph shows 85db average. I found that Audyssey always set my subs about 2db lower than what they should be. Now that we verify all your levels are correct, you can proceed to run compression sweeps on hdmi 4. Start with receiver volume at -20, then increase by 5 till seeing compression (-20MV, -15MV, -10MV). DO NOT run sweep any higher if your last sweep show compression as it could damage your subs and warranty does not cover this. Your graph for -20MV sweep should now be centered around 95db, 105db for -10MV sweep and 115db (reference level) for 0MV sweep. Now, measure hdmi3 and use sub distance tweak and measure again and again till achieving flat FR at crossover point. Always measure with receiver dynVOL and dynEQ OFF. Hope this gets you going
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Last edited by tvuong; 04-21-2015 at 05:08 PM.
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post #18733 of 30022 Old 04-21-2015, 06:01 PM
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Cesar, how do I know where to put them and what type to use, I'm going to try some radical moves tonight and post results, my stuff sounds too good to measure so poorly..........seriously.
Jeff, I used a software that lets you put all the info of your room (WxLxH; size of speakers; TV, distances and stuff). It's very simplistic but works oh so well! It tells you where the first reflection points are.
Unfortunately, I only have it on my work computer - oh the irony - but I'm at home now. I'll try to send you that program sometime tomorrow, but definitely before the end of the week.
I found it here at AVS... not sure the name of it nor the name of the thread

As Alan said, the corners are the most common place for bass traps - but they have to be thick!

Also, just like Aliens did, you can submit photos of your room at the GIK Acoustics website, provide them with a preliminary budget, and they will suggest you what you should/could do with your room.

As a starter, thick curtains and a shaggy rug is a nice first step.

But proper treatments make a huge difference and you should certainly check them out (too bad PSA doesn't offer that with the free shipping both ways, eh? )

One last thing: at the end of the day, don't worry too much about graphs. If the system is sounding good to you, hooray. Is there room for improvement? Well, always. But you gotta keep having fun! That's the whole point of this hobby.
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Yippee-ki-yay...

Last edited by cesar123; 04-21-2015 at 06:05 PM. Reason: edit a few words due to a few beers affecting my speech and typing
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post #18734 of 30022 Old 04-21-2015, 06:02 PM
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tvuong's post is like a REW guide... in a couple of paragraphs! Great stuff!

Yippee-ki-yay...
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post #18735 of 30022 Old 04-21-2015, 06:39 PM
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Thank you guys so much for everything, I was ready to sell everything and get a sound bar

Tony the only reason I wanted to turn the gain down to 12dB on the mic was because all the guys on the REW forum say that is the standard or default gain structure by which all graphs are based. They can understand them better for some reason. Your tutorial sums it all up, thanks.
Cheers Jeff
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post #18736 of 30022 Old 04-21-2015, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Bass traps go at the intersection of boundaries - corners, wall to floor, wall to ceiling.

For the higher frequencies, you want to treat the first reflection points. A good way to find those points is with the mirror test (sit in the MLP and have someone slide a mirror along the wall, when you can see the speaker that is the first reflection point).

This is very very basic, but will get you started. For more info, visit GIK Acoustics site....they have a lot of good info there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Thank you guys so much for everything, I was ready to sell everything and get a sound bar

Tony the only reason I wanted to turn the gain down to 12dB on the mic was because all the guys on the REW forum say that is the standard or default gain structure by which all graphs are based. They can understand them better for some reason. Your tutorial sums it all up, thanks.
Cheers Jeff
Guys, you are scaring me with all the REW stuff and measuring. Very good info though, I try to avoid reading REW thread as it;s tractor beam might pull me in.
I am resisting still, got Anti-mode 8033 automatic sub EQ, plugged it, run it, so far like the difference in the sound it provided throughout the 5/7 seating spots. That, in addition to Audyssey and the acoustic treatments.

As for acoustic panels, I just treated first reflection panels and back wall bass trap ( 5 inch thick- did not have room for the 7 inch thick ones) . GIK did a good job with recommendations, and it was completely up to me to choose what fit my space and budget. I should treat the corners with bass traps but have not yet pull the trigger.

Ahblaza, please do not buy the soundbar
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Change is the only constant.

My HT: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...l#post32691273

Last edited by sinisanav; 04-21-2015 at 09:20 PM.
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post #18737 of 30022 Old 04-21-2015, 08:54 PM
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REW and graphs are fun to look at... but if you don't like what you hear out of your speakers, who gives a damn?

You have to enjoy whatever system you have, regardless what a graph says.

IMO, graphs are like women, both flat and curvy have a place in our society

Jeff, do NOT sell your PSA gear! Work on it a bit more and you will not regret it. You have come so far and have enjoyed quite a lot. I remember reading your positive comments a while back... if REW is bumming you out, fuggedaboutit and have some fun. However, some acoustic treatments would make a difference

Yippee-ki-yay...

Last edited by cesar123; 04-21-2015 at 09:00 PM. Reason: beer
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post #18738 of 30022 Old 04-21-2015, 09:14 PM
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Hey guys, what is the advantage of buying a umik-1 through PSA instead of directly through minidsp?
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post #18739 of 30022 Old 04-21-2015, 09:20 PM
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Hey guys, what is the advantage of buying a umik-1 through PSA instead of directly through minidsp?
Supporting a small business based in Ohio.
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post #18740 of 30022 Old 04-21-2015, 11:43 PM
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I'm loving the hell out of this S1500. Each night when I get off work at 3am, I fire up an episode of the new Daredevil series on Netflix. Not only do I love the way the intro music sounds, but the fight scenes are unreal. Some of the punches give me a visceral sensation.

Thanks Tom, I've missed having a sub around that can kick my ass!
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post #18741 of 30022 Old 04-22-2015, 01:14 PM
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Found it!

For anyone interest in acoustic treatments, specifically treating the first reflection points, here's a thread at AVS which has a software that allows you do pin point those locations! Put as much info as you can, and you'll see the reflection points of the FL/C/FR. I think it's really cool.

*free* software to help determine your first reflection points

Check post #215 to download the file. I had to, also, download a .dll file and put on my system32 folder to run the program. So far, so good!
@ahblaza , this is what I mentioned yesterday.
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Yippee-ki-yay...
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post #18742 of 30022 Old 04-22-2015, 03:19 PM
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I have a basic question about using REW (thinking about diving into the deep end) I do not have a laptop I do have a desktop PC within 10 feet of the MLP but it doesn't have any HDMI connections. I can run a USB extension from a UMIK-1 to the PC and run RCA cables from the headphone jack on the PC to my 8801 and be good with REW?
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post #18743 of 30022 Old 04-22-2015, 04:03 PM
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I'm loving the hell out of this S1500. Each night when I get off work at 3am, I fire up an episode of the new Daredevil series on Netflix.

So you go home and fire up your HT, during the early morning hours, while your neighbors are trying to sleep?
I can see an eviction notice heading your way real soon.

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post #18744 of 30022 Old 04-22-2015, 04:36 PM
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I have a basic question about using REW (thinking about diving into the deep end) I do not have a laptop I do have a desktop PC within 10 feet of the MLP but it doesn't have any HDMI connections. I can run a USB extension from a UMIK-1 to the PC and run RCA cables from the headphone jack on the PC to my 8801 and be good with REW?
Yup. I used it that way for about a year before getting a laptop with HDMI.
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post #18745 of 30022 Old 04-22-2015, 08:48 PM
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So I received my xv15se today, and without turning the gain almost all the way up I cannot get anything audible out of the sub. Not sure what could be the problem and I emailed Tom and I am sure he will help me out.
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post #18746 of 30022 Old 04-22-2015, 10:11 PM
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So I received my xv15se today, and without turning the gain almost all the way up I cannot get anything audible out of the sub. Not sure what could be the problem and I emailed Tom and I am sure he will help me out.
What do you have the sub trim levels in your AVR set at? Have you tried turning that up first?
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post #18747 of 30022 Old 04-23-2015, 04:38 AM
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What do you have the sub trim levels in your AVR set at? Have you tried turning that up first?
I moved it all the way up from zero to + 7. Not much change at all.
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post #18748 of 30022 Old 04-23-2015, 04:54 AM
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So I received my xv15se today, and without turning the gain almost all the way up I cannot get anything audible out of the sub. Not sure what could be the problem and I emailed Tom and I am sure he will help me out.
Need a little more information is possible. What type of receiver, how it is hooked up, what were you using to get something audible from the XV15SE? Just trying to help, as I hooked mine up the first time, threw in war of the worlds and was like wow! I then ran Aud XT32 and the story builds from there. Did you have an active subwoffer before your PSA purchase? If so, did you change anything since you put in the XV?
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post #18749 of 30022 Old 04-23-2015, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lizrussspike View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dustin05 View Post
So I received my xv15se today, and without turning the gain almost all the way up I cannot get anything audible out of the sub. Not sure what could be the problem and I emailed Tom and I am sure he will help me out.
Need a little more information is possible. What type of receiver, how it is hooked up, what were you using to get something audible from the XV15SE? Just trying to help, as I hooked mine up the first time, threw in war of the worlds and was like wow! I then ran Aud XT32 and the story builds from there. Did you have an active subwoffer before your PSA purchase? If so, did you change anything since you put in the XV?
Yamaha 677, yes I had a previous subwoofer. I used the hobbit on Bluray and the newest Star Trek for testing.
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post #18750 of 30022 Old 04-23-2015, 06:17 AM
 
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The hobbit on BR has almost no bass in it

Do you have a better movie to use? Like war of the worlds? Or tron legacy?
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Denon Avr 3313ci Receiver , Denon Avr 4520ci Receiver , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver , Power Sound Audio , Power Sound Audio Triax , Room Equilizer Wizard Rew , v1500 , V3600i , Velodyne Sms 1 In Room Bass Correction Kit With Included Microphone , Xs30 , Xv15
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