Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 637 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #19081 of 21512 Old 05-07-2015, 10:13 AM
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well its like only the second day in the 80's here since last summer...so it would be a little suspicious haha
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post #19082 of 21512 Old 05-07-2015, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent A View Post
I recently purchased a pair of S1500’s to replace my aging Klipsch SW-8 II sub. I also purchased a UMIK-1 and downloaded REW so I could take best advantage of dialing them in. As far as placement, I just unboxed them put them down on the front stage inside my mains and ran a quick Audyssey calibration so that they were recognized by my AVR-4311ci. I know that they will need to be moved around but I have been real busy with too many things to have much timeto play with them.

My Klipsch is still in its original spot so last night I reloaded my old calibration and did a few REW measurements to see where I was at with the old sub before measuring the S1500’s. The Klipsch’s location was selected by doing a traditional sub-crawl & an SPL meter, but it’s measured response with REW is pretty scary looking.

I then measured the response of the S1500’s and with my first sweep I had a serious dip around 44 Hz and another smaller one at about 77 Hz. I then ran each sub separately and they weren’t there so it looked to me like the subs were fighting each other at those points. After several experiments playing with the Delay Control knob, I was able to reduce them significantly.

It was getting late so that was all the time I had to play with them. But without REW, getting these dialed in would have had a much more difficult and time consuming process. Hopefully I will be able to find some time this weekend to move them around a bit. I figured that I would start by putting sub #1 in my old Klipsch’s location and sub # 2 at the second best location based on my original sub crawl and then go from there.




Hmmm....I would go with the first (before delay adjustment) graph.

You lost nearly 5db between 45hz-70hz when you messed with the delay.

It sounds like your subs are pretty much equidistant to the MLP and you have XT32....you shouldn't have to mess with the delay knob at all. I would instead try re-positioning the subs for best response.


Oh, and please post sub graphs with 5db steps on the left hand side.
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post #19083 of 21512 Old 05-07-2015, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Brent A View Post
It was getting late so that was all the time I had to play with them. But without REW, getting these dialed in would have had a much more difficult and time consuming process. Hopefully I will be able to find some time this weekend to move them around a bit. I figured that I would start by putting sub #1 in my old Klipsch’s location and sub # 2 at the second best location based on my original sub crawl and then go from there
I have a couple of suggestions:

Set your axis to 45-105dB (this is a basic standard we use for frequency graphs here)

Resize your REW window so that your axis increments in 5dB instead of 10. It makes it clearer what's really happening.

It'd be great to see a single image with 3 graphs: sub 1 on its own, sub 2 on its own, and both together. That'll help identify any lingering phase issues.

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post #19084 of 21512 Old 05-07-2015, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
@ Brent A,

It looks like you need to find another location for your sub 2. It is giving you a lot of problems.
I should probably clarify the names on those graphs.

"(2) S1500 Front L&R " is of both S1500's together before adjusting the phase.
"(2) S1500 Front L&R after delay" is both S1500's together after adjusting the phase.
"(1) S1500 Front Right" is sub #1 by itself.

Here are three graphs of the S1500's only
Sub #1 by itself, sub #2 by itself, and both subs together after adjusting phase.
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post #19085 of 21512 Old 05-07-2015, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nalthien View Post
I have a couple of suggestions:

Set your axis to 45-105dB (this is a basic standard we use for frequency graphs here)

Resize your REW window so that your axis increments in 5dB instead of 10. It makes it clearer what's really happening.

It'd be great to see a single image with 3 graphs: sub 1 on its own, sub 2 on its own, and both together. That'll help identify any lingering phase issues.
Will do.

Yeah putting them all in one graph sounds like a better way of showing them.

Thanks.

I'm still an REW newbie.

I'm sure a lot will change when I get them located in their best positions, but are those severe dips above 80Hz anything I should even attempt to flatten out since my crossover is at 80Hz?

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post #19086 of 21512 Old 05-07-2015, 11:01 AM
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Todd V,

Just sent you guys an email with some of my info and a few questions. I am looking to consolidate from 2 subs to 1 in a month or two and need some input. Real impressed by the XV30FSE results on data-bass.
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post #19087 of 21512 Old 05-07-2015, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Something Jim and I have been discussing/working on for a while now.

Dual 18s, 1700w of ICE power, vented. Still a work in progress but here is one proto type. The final form will certainly be smaller.

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post #19088 of 21512 Old 05-07-2015, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
well its like only the second day in the 80's here since last summer...so it would be a little suspicious haha
Tell them your sick and you need to go home to take your Vitamin Bass...lol
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post #19089 of 21512 Old 05-07-2015, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Todd V,

Just sent you guys an email with some of my info and a few questions. I am looking to consolidate from 2 subs to 1 in a month or two and need some input. Real impressed by the XV30FSE results on data-bass.
Sounds like you should get on the order list for the V-3600
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post #19090 of 21512 Old 05-07-2015, 03:45 PM
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Well audyssey is running right now. Just have to say I got one hell of a steal. The damage is barely noticeable. I literally thought tom sent me the wrong blem sub

I will measure with ReW once the kids are asleep
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post #19091 of 21512 Old 05-07-2015, 05:13 PM
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post #19092 of 21512 Old 05-07-2015, 05:18 PM
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Nice response Brian! I should post mine, you would feel even better. How's it sound?
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post #19093 of 21512 Old 05-07-2015, 05:55 PM
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Nice response Brian! I should post mine, you would feel even better. How's it sound?
Thanks. It sounds well. For now...the same lol. Well it does fee more full. As of the entire room if energized with bass more than with two

Ill tell you when running sweeps it was head and shoulders above duals in output.

I can't really crank it tonight. Wife is home. Sunday night though she works late so I will be cranking it up big time
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post #19094 of 21512 Old 05-07-2015, 06:16 PM
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Well your response was already really good, so that's nice that you are noticing an increase in output.
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post #19095 of 21512 Old 05-08-2015, 04:45 AM
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comaprison...duals vs 3




not 100% exact...cause the audyssey mic wasnt in exct same spot for both EQ's and I did yesterdays with the house awake...running kids around doesnt help for best results...

Also wasnt able to put the second sub upfront exactly where I had planned...its now in front left corner acting as a speaker stand for the Left main...the second is still in between right main and center...when I get ambitious I will make the second sub mirror the first...and put it under the front right main...and be in both front corners and back left corner for all 3.

you can see the +5db reading from adding the 3rd..these are both with the MVL at 0.0. the headroom has increased a ton...makes me wish I hadnt sold my minidsp last week to add a house curve

the rollof looks more gentle under 10hz...but same response

EDIT: I DID watch edge of tomorrow last night at -10 and I did notice rattles I never had before grrrr hahah guess it's a good problem to have
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post #19096 of 21512 Old 05-08-2015, 05:26 AM
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Looks like to me you lost a little 8-12hz output in trade for what looks to be about a +3db average gain from 16-60hz. If you overlaid the 2 graphs it would be easier to see. The +5 db gain is in a really narrow spot around 18hz. Overall I would call it sweet success!! Gotta luv triple's!! I know my 3 XV's destroy my room and leave folks in awe after they hear them. You know your doing work when the subs will register 7.0 on the richter scale. Try downloading the app and measure your tactile response.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...McSGsAWw04HIBQ
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post #19097 of 21512 Old 05-08-2015, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Either will be a significant upgrade for you. The Submersives are top tier, heavy engineering, just about perfect really.

There's little available data on the sub-1 but we can refer to an extensive measurement set on the sub-2 here.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=69

The sub-1 has about half the amp power, less internal volume, and about 2/3 of the cone area. So something like 4-5dB less max output would be a good estimate. In other words, let's make the best case assumption for the sub-1 that it will match the extension of the sub-2....but with 4dB less output across the board(10hz to 150hz).

Our S1500 would be a close but edge to the sub-1. The S3000i would be a step up across the board. DUAL S3000i would be quite the upgrade. Dual S3000i wouldn't be too far off from dual SUb -2s for example.

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Maybe Seatons are perfect, but its very hard to get talking to someone there, which worries me a little.


I like your responsiveness, it gives great confidence for future customer service.


Take the 4000 watt and 6000watt amps available from Sperkerpower - what do I lose out against them in performance by running with the S3000 amps which have lower power? I'm just curious and on a learning curve in relation to these bigger, higher powered amps.


Also, I started trying to use REW room sim, and got some rubbish results - is there any way I can make the outcome better here?
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post #19098 of 21512 Old 05-08-2015, 05:57 AM
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yeah I agree with your assessment...except I dont see a loss just a more gradual rolloff rather than a steep rolloff....maybe it was the running of audyssey...or the positioning of the mic for REW sweep Ill re-do the audyssey tonight when i can take my time on it.

actually looking at the graph Im still getting 95db on the sweep at 8hz and gained a bit at 7hz (up to 92db from 90db with only 2 subs)....

idk..i woujld think it would get better at those frequencies...shouldnt it?

but yes...sweet success it is...especially once I get the XMC-1 and can tweak the response as I see fit...

maybe I will re-aquire a minidsp to play with too...

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post #19099 of 21512 Old 05-08-2015, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Todd V,

Just sent you guys an email with some of my info and a few questions. I am looking to consolidate from 2 subs to 1 in a month or two and need some input. Real impressed by the XV30FSE results on data-bass.
The V1500 is very close to the XV30Fse in the bottom half of the bandwidth(<40hz), the XV30Fse does have the edge in the upper bass. The new V3600 is a significant step up over the XV30Fse.

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post #19100 of 21512 Old 05-08-2015, 07:42 AM
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I may have to budget a little more a little longer, but I think going from dual subs to one, the V3600 is my best move.
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post #19101 of 21512 Old 05-08-2015, 07:44 AM
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i dont think going from a dual setup to a single is ever the best move..
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post #19102 of 21512 Old 05-08-2015, 07:56 AM
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...The new V3600 is a significant step up over the XV30Fse.

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post #19103 of 21512 Old 05-08-2015, 07:58 AM
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i dont think going from a dual setup to a single is ever the best move..
I think it depends.

The dual 18's output is going to be more than my duals (not co-located) and they are going to play lower most likely.
Sure, bass may be more even with dual subs I guess... Id also like to take some room back. Dual VTF's in two different spots consumes space. I could co-locate the VTF's, but I still think the V3600 would win that.
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post #19104 of 21512 Old 05-08-2015, 08:04 AM
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well the true goal is to have a nice flat response...and that wont happen in the dual vs single debate.

now for your other reasons...it seems you dont want two subs..so that makes sense.

but I feel you will disappointed going from 2 to 1

I would rather have 2 lesser subs than 1 bigger badder sub..

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post #19105 of 21512 Old 05-08-2015, 08:06 AM
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Maybe Seatons are perfect, but its very hard to get talking to someone there, which worries me a little.


I like your responsiveness, it gives great confidence for future customer service.


Take the 4000 watt and 6000watt amps available from Sperkerpower - what do I lose out against them in performance by running with the S3000 amps which have lower power? I'm just curious and on a learning curve in relation to these bigger, higher powered amps.


Also, I started trying to use REW room sim, and got some rubbish results - is there any way I can make the outcome better here?
Assuming you don't run into any other system limitations(these would be mostly driver related) every time you double up on the amp power you'll gain about 3dB. The important consideration is that you *will* run into driver limitations at some point though. These will tend to be thermal related(voice coil melts) or excursion related.

Also, in a well engineered system(SubM, S3000i) the amplifier power will be carefully optimized anyway. So adding MORE power will usually result in little performance gain and could very well lead to longevity issues.

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post #19106 of 21512 Old 05-08-2015, 08:19 AM
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well the true goal is to have a nice flat response...and that wont happen in the dual vs single debate.

now for your other reasons...it seems you dont want two subs..so that makes sense.

but I feel you will disappointed going from 2 to 1

I would rather have 2 lesser subs than 1 bigger badder sub..
Man, I am torn on this. Flat is great, BUT only after you have the output you need. I think I would rather have an uneven FR with loads of output than a flat FR that I am bordering/exceeding the limits of.

So I would say the goal here is output first, flat second.
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post #19107 of 21512 Old 05-08-2015, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by climber07 View Post
Well I was having a good morning...

Because the V3600 is better than the XV30Fse?

Everything evolves...

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post #19108 of 21512 Old 05-08-2015, 09:44 AM
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Because the V3600 is better than the XV30Fse?

Everything evolves...

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Mostly because you guys are bringing out some gnarly subs that will crush my XV15se subs.
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post #19109 of 21512 Old 05-08-2015, 09:47 AM
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Man, I am torn on this. Flat is great, BUT only after you have the output you need. I think I would rather have an uneven FR with loads of output than a flat FR that I am bordering/exceeding the limits of.

So I would say the goal here is output first, flat second.
I am too.

What I see, potentially, is a sub that can fit in one of my currently used spots that will have both more output than my dual setup (using two places) and play lower.
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post #19110 of 21512 Old 05-08-2015, 10:39 AM
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Ported vs. Sealed for a Large Open Space?

Been looking at subs for a while now - need to upgrade my two older 10's with something that'll have a significant impact in my large open living room. After looking into several sub manufacturers, I've pretty much made up my mind to go with PSA. I was looking specifically at the V1500 and thought that was the sub for me. But as I continue to read this thread, I've got to wonder if I should stick with a ported alignment, or move to a sealed sub for the first time. I'll need some guidance on this one.

If you've seen my earlier posts on my speaker upgrade, you'll remember my living room HT is north of 5000 cu ft with a 20 ft vaulted ceiling, and is open on two sides, it's a mess acoustically speaking. I probably do 50% music now, and the rest is split between movies and gaming. I do love that LFE in movies...

Ported subs were recommended at some point for such a large open space, can't recall exactly where the recommendation came from, but there it is. If I went with 12's, some folks were saying I'd need two of them to make a dent in that much space. Agreed, and was considering two PB-2000's, but what about if I went with just one sub with a bigger driver? Could move more air, no? Hence my focusing on the V1500.

My present 10's are co-located (stacked) so I'm going to replace those with just one larger sub in this living room (that's all I was able to get approved... the basement build will have multiple monsters, I'm sure!) But do I really need to go ported, or would a sealed sub work just as well in this much space?

Perhaps it comes down to these two factors; output and extension (music, or movies - do I really have to choose? I want both!) I see the ported subs are typically tuned to a lower frequency than their sealed counterparts, and their output is a bit more in the 16 - 25 Hz range; this seems like it would be desirable for movies with good LFE. The sealed subs have more output from 31 - 100 Hz than ported subs, which seems like it would be desirable for that impact in movie effects and in drums and bass notes in music. Best of both worlds. But what about the fact my space is large and open? Isn't more overall output what I need here?

Would a sealed sub with good output be a better choice over a ported sub in my large open space? Loaded question, I know. The subs I'm considering to compare to the V1500 are actually the S3000i and the XS30se. Yeah, I know; those are dual 15's vs the V1500's single 15 - is this a fair comparison? Maybe not.

I'm asking all this because, if I'm going to upgrade my two old small subs with one larger sub, and I'm gonna drop a grand doing it, what if I kicked that up to $1250, or $1500? If I put one of those dual 15 sealed subs in that large open space, would I be just as happy as if I went for the V1500 - would one of those duals really make the difference in this room? Enough to justify the jump in cost?

Last edited by Philm63; 05-08-2015 at 10:43 AM.
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Xs30 , Velodyne Sms 1 In Room Bass Correction Kit With Included Microphone , Denon Avr 3313ci Receiver , Denon Avr 4520ci Receiver , Power Sound Audio , Xv15 , Power Sound Audio Triax , Room Equilizer Wizard Rew , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver
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