Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 643 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #19261 of 37554 Old 05-21-2015, 06:30 PM
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Edit: NVM everything is working properly.

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post #19262 of 37554 Old 05-22-2015, 12:46 PM
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I'm interested to know if anyone has or is going to compare a PSA sub to a Reaction Audio sub?

It looks like the new Reaction Audio subs will start shipping next week maybe. It's interesting... their sealed 15 (Gamma 15) is slightly more powerful and slightly cheaper than the S1500.
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post #19263 of 37554 Old 05-22-2015, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhughy2010 View Post
I'm interested to know if anyone has or is going to compare a PSA sub to a Reaction Audio sub?

It looks like the new Reaction Audio subs will start shipping next week maybe. It's interesting... their sealed 15 (Gamma 15) is slightly more powerful and slightly cheaper than the S1500.
I am interested in that comparison as well. I wanted to go with Reaction just to give them a shot but knew there was no way I could wait that long to get my sub. I went with the S1500 and after some set up trouble issues have ended up very impressed. I have learned that when you get into a quality sub there is a lot more to it than just plugging it in and sticking it in the corner. From the pics I like the finish on the PSA stuff much better and know that seeing the seams on the the Reaction stuff would bug me. I still feel the Reaction stuff is a great value but feel its hard to beat PSA for customer service and warranty.

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post #19264 of 37554 Old 05-22-2015, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhughy2010 View Post
I'm interested to know if anyone has or is going to compare a PSA sub to a Reaction Audio sub?

It looks like the new Reaction Audio subs will start shipping next week maybe. It's interesting... their sealed 15 (Gamma 15) is slightly more powerful and slightly cheaper than the S1500.

You have to look at the overall picture, while their amp in the Gamma 15 may have more power. What about the driver? If their driver has a lower sensitivity than PSA drivers than it would mean that RA's driver would need that extra power to drive them. You would also need to know the entire power specs, lets say you have a 1K watt amp, well what does that amp do over let's say 10hz to 120hz, does it produce the full 1K watt or does it produce 1K Watt at just a certain frequency. You would have to know all the amp and driver specs through the entire usage sub frequency range and then listen to each sub to determine which might sound better to your ears.
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post #19265 of 37554 Old 05-22-2015, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhughy2010 View Post
I'm interested to know if anyone has or is going to compare a PSA sub to a Reaction Audio sub?

It looks like the new Reaction Audio subs will start shipping next week maybe. It's interesting... their sealed 15 (Gamma 15) is slightly more powerful and slightly cheaper than the S1500.
There has been a lot of debate between the two companies and their offerings, but I don't know of a single AVS member that has heard a sub from each lol. In reality they are pretty close and the decision will come down to personal preferences: which finish do you prefer? Which company would you rather do business with? Do you need the sub right this minute or are you ok with a month of lead time to save some cash?

These types of things have more impact than the difference in performance for the sealed 15" offerings imo.
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post #19266 of 37554 Old 05-22-2015, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
You have to look at the overall picture, while their amp in the Gamma 15 may have more power. What about the driver? If their driver has a lower sensitivity than PSA drivers than it would mean that RA's driver would need that extra power to drive them. You would also need to know the entire power specs, lets say you have a 1K watt amp, well what does that amp do over let's say 10hz to 120hz, does it produce the full 1K watt or does it produce 1K Watt at just a certain frequency. You would have to know all the amp and driver specs through the entire usage sub frequency range and then listen to each sub to determine which might sound better to your ears.
The amp has zero issues driving the RA Gamma 15 driver to full excursion.
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post #19267 of 37554 Old 05-22-2015, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
You have to look at the overall picture, while their amp in the Gamma 15 may have more power. What about the driver? If their driver has a lower sensitivity than PSA drivers than it would mean that RA's driver would need that extra power to drive them. You would also need to know the entire power specs, lets say you have a 1K watt amp, well what does that amp do over let's say 10hz to 120hz, does it produce the full 1K watt or does it produce 1K Watt at just a certain frequency. You would have to know all the amp and driver specs through the entire usage sub frequency range and then listen to each sub to determine which might sound better to your ears.

IIRC, they are both using the new Speakerpower ICE amps. I think the RA drivers are lower impedance, hence the difference in power.
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post #19268 of 37554 Old 05-22-2015, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post
IIRC, they are both using the new Speakerpower ICE amps. I think the RA drivers are lower impedance, hence the difference in power.

Really at the end of the day PSA, JTR and Reaction Audio are all using the same 700watt & 1400watt amp modules from SpeakerPower.
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post #19269 of 37554 Old 05-22-2015, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
The amp has zero issues driving the RA Gamma 15 driver to full excursion.
I'm not saying that it would not. I'm saying that you cannot just look at Amp specs and compare the 2, there are more factors. I'm not saying 1 sub is better than the other, I'm saying you need to know the whole picture about that amp/ whole product, this not only applies to subwoofers.
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post #19270 of 37554 Old 05-22-2015, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
I'm not saying that it would not. I'm saying that you cannot just look at Amp specs and compare the 2, there are more factors. I'm not saying 1 sub is better than the other, I'm saying you need to know the whole picture about that amp/ whole product, this not only applies to subwoofers.

I completely agree Mike, there's many different metrics to subs that need to be taken into account when trying to make comparisons.
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post #19271 of 37554 Old 05-22-2015, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Really at the end of the day PSA, JTR and Reaction Audio are all using the same 700watt & 1400watt amp modules from SpeakerPower.

Correct. I almost forgot the Jeff is using them for the Cap 1400 as well.

It's great to see these new Speakerpower amps being used in subs that are more affordable. Excellent amps.
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post #19272 of 37554 Old 05-22-2015, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
You have to look at the overall picture, while their amp in the Gamma 15 may have more power. What about the driver? If their driver has a lower sensitivity than PSA drivers than it would mean that RA's driver would need that extra power to drive them. You would also need to know the entire power specs, lets say you have a 1K watt amp, well what does that amp do over let's say 10hz to 120hz, does it produce the full 1K watt or does it produce 1K Watt at just a certain frequency. You would have to know all the amp and driver specs through the entire usage sub frequency range and then listen to each sub to determine which might sound better to your ears.
Just a FYI, the two subs use the same exact amplifier module.

Also, I would be hesitant to compare any two products solely on specifications or worse yet...one single "spec"(especially when it is just copy/pasted from a competitor's website). Jim and I have been doing this since the late 1990s and we've learned that there are *many* factors much more important than a specification with regards to a successful and sustainable business model. When potential customers consider a Power Sound Audio product they rarely/ never base their purchase decision on an amp rating IME.

Here are a few random thoughts that may explain why we feel our products represent a solid value.

First and foremost our customers expect AND deserve a certain level of customer service and availability when questions are presented(email, chat, phone, etc). When you place an order you can except immediate shipment unless it is a special order. 7 days a week, we're available to assist with any/all questions about our products.

Orders are not charged until they ship. The only time they are is if we get a cancellation notice from our merchant account system. This will usually occur 7-14 days after the order is placed. So on something like a couple custom wood veneers subs we may need to charge before shipping. And we only send out tracking information when we ship a product. 95+ % of orders ship within one business day. Could we lower pricing across the board by delaying shipments 2-4-6 weeks? Sure, anytime you take money weeks/months ahead of time you can streamline cash flow to some degree.

We usually have 20-40 subwoofers and speakers pre built and ready to ship at any time. I'll include a picture of our (messy) warehouse in this post.

Build quality and fit and finish. Compare ours with competitors and I believe you'll see where some of the extra cost of product goes. And look for IN FOCUS close up shots before making any final judgments too.

Speaker crossovers are all designed, assembled, and tested in house. This insure product quality and consistency. Goto our "official speaker thread" and you'll see all products are performing to "spec" with no odd surprises. Every speaker is measured before boxing and shipping.

When looking at measured subwoofer performance pay close attention to metrics like the Waterfall, Impulse, Group Delay as well as FR and output. You may see the difference between a few months of engineering and a few minutes..

We also don't have our customers PMing folks here telling them NOT to purchase competitor products. But everyone seems to recognize that for what it really is lately.

I could go on and on but I have work to do..

At the end of the day there is a variety of quality options. And each will have its own set of "pros" and "cons" Each individual can weigh those as needed to make the best purchase decision for them. I just wanted to preset a few reasons why our products are priced the way they are.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #19273 of 37554 Old 05-22-2015, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
The amp has zero issues driving the RA Gamma 15 driver to full excursion.
Really? Interesting. Proof? At all frequencies? What limiters are employed? How is the attack and sustain worked out? I could incorporate a 50 watt amp into the S1500 and say "the driver can be driven to full excursion" as that really means nothing without context. Do you have a FR/waterfall/compression anything?

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #19274 of 37554 Old 05-22-2015, 03:59 PM
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forgot picture of warehouse. About 15-20 subs boxed and ready, another 5-10 speakers,

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post #19275 of 37554 Old 05-22-2015, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
I completely agree Mike, there's many different metrics to subs that need to be taken into account when trying to make comparisons.
Yes, just like shopping for receivers or separate amps. Amp A can be rated at 200 watts X 5 and Amp B can be rated at 200 watts x 5, but Amp A can only produce those 200 watts at 1kz while Amp B produces its rated power through the entire frequency range, just like the Amp's 4 ohm ratings are just as important as different 8 ohm speakers impedance will dip lower at certain frequency's and can cause Amp problems if not matched with the appropriate speakers. This is why you have to look at the whole picture of every product.
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post #19276 of 37554 Old 05-22-2015, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Really? Interesting. Proof? At all frequencies? What limiters are employed? How is the attack and sustain worked out? I could incorporate a 50 watt amp into the S1500 and say "the driver can be driven to full excursion" as that really means nothing without context. Do you have a FR/waterfall/compression anything?



Tom V.

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Are you really that insecure that because I said that in the PSA thread that amp can push the driver to full excursion you feel some need to attack my post like that? Have I in anyway said a Gamma 15 is better then any of your subs for you to make a post like this?

How do you know I don't have that info? As if I would post it in the PSA thread, I'm sure if I did you'd just go off on another rant about me or what you think I have or haven't done.

Funny how others make the posts of the RA subs yet you feel the need to only quote my post and try to come after me asking for me to post proof of my statement, I guess by now I really shouldn't be surprised.
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post #19277 of 37554 Old 05-22-2015, 04:12 PM
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BTW, here is the Compression for the S1500,

Measured with a calibrated CLIO system not a "spl meter"...

Oh and here is the electrical on the Room Size control that Power Sound Audio designed in case someone needs to copy/paste the information into their product owner's manual


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post #19278 of 37554 Old 05-22-2015, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
Are you really that insecure that because I said that in the PSA thread that amp can push the driver to full excursion you feel some need to attack my post like that? Have I in anyway said a Gamma 15 is better then any of your subs for you to make a post like this?

How do you know I don't have that info? As if I would post it in the PSA thread, I'm sure if I did you'd just go off on another rant about me or what you think I have or haven't done.

Funny how others make the posts of the RA subs yet you feel the need to only quote my post and try to come after me asking for me to post proof of my statement, I guess by now I really shouldn't be surprised.
What does that even mean Joe? Like I said, I can run a 50 watt amp and say the same thing. So I'm asking you what it means. It just sounds like some head of PR for a competitor randomly tossing out marketing bullet points? I don't know what special info you may have or not. Just asking. Who else is making specific performance claims like this? And now you'll play the victim card again? Oh god...better rush back to PM and try to convince more potential Power Sound Audio customers not to purchase our products I guess?

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post #19279 of 37554 Old 05-22-2015, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
BTW, here is the Compression for the S1500,

Measured with a calibrated CLIO system not a "spl meter"...

Oh and here is the electrical on the Room Size control that Power Sound Audio designed in case someone needs to copy/paste the information into their product owner's manual


Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Tom, can you explain those graphs where a laymen like myself can understand them? I have been playing with the room control more lately setting up my S1500 and honestly am not sure what I am changing. Thanks.
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post #19280 of 37554 Old 05-22-2015, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
What does that even mean Joe? Like I said, I can run a 50 watt amp and say the same thing. So I'm asking you what it means. It just sounds like some head of PR for a competitor randomly tossing out marketing bullet points? I don't know what special info you may have or not. Just asking. Who else is making specific performance claims like this? And now you'll play the victim card again? Oh god...better rush back to PM and try to convince more potential Power Sound Audio customers not to purchase our products I guess?



Tom V.

Power Sound Audio

Tom where does that even come from, I for the record like your subs very much and I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the PM thing, I have never sent someone a PM and told them not to buy your stuff, if someone sends me a pm I'll give someone an opinion of my experience with the PSA subs that I owned. I don't go looking for people to tell them not to buy your stuff. I'm not sure why that's hard to believe, I have no ill will towards you but you seem to have issues with me. You must have forgotten that I was one of your customers and very much enjoyed dealing with you, but some how you seem to think I've wronged you. Anyways like I have in the past id rather just move on.
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post #19281 of 37554 Old 05-22-2015, 05:27 PM
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Well…. All I know is I really like my PSA subs and speakers A LOT!!!!!

I also appreciate the customer service that I always get from Tom and Jim and I'm more than willing to pay a little extra for the quality of products, the excellent engineering and the incredible customer service I always get.

I'm sure the Reaction products are just fine but PSA has totally won my support because everything I have from them has been of excellent quality and every time I have a question Tom answers it in less than a day and often in less than an hour (even on weekends). That's unheard of in this day and age and it's worth it's weight in gold IMO.
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post #19282 of 37554 Old 05-22-2015, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Really? Interesting. Proof? At all frequencies? What limiters are employed? How is the attack and sustain worked out? I could incorporate a 50 watt amp into the S1500 and say "the driver can be driven to full excursion" as that really means nothing without context. Do you have a FR/waterfall/compression anything?

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Tom, since you have a lot of expertise on subs. Is there any drivers that can be driven to full excursion under 20Hz? Or is this a very difficult area to get full excursion? Because I was thinking maybe not, and full excursion is only at a narrow band of the FR and its a misconception.
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post #19283 of 37554 Old 05-22-2015, 05:59 PM
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Tom, please return my call at your earliest convenience?

Thank you.

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post #19284 of 37554 Old 05-22-2015, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Instead of the subtle jabs and outright mud slinging, perhaps a quick "thanks for taking this one for the team" could be in order? Nah.... http://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/enh...7086701-23.gif


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Wait for it.... Wait for it....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Just a FYI, the two subs use the same exact amplifier module.

Also, I would be hesitant to compare any two products solely on specifications or worse yet...one single "spec"(especially when it is just copy/pasted from a competitor's website). Jim and I have been doing this since the late 1990s and we've learned that there are *many* factors much more important than a specification with regards to a successful and sustainable business model. When potential customers consider a Power Sound Audio product they rarely/ never base their purchase decision on an amp rating IME.

Here are a few random thoughts that may explain why we feel our products represent a solid value.

First and foremost our customers expect AND deserve a certain level of customer service and availability when questions are presented(email, chat, phone, etc). When you place an order you can except immediate shipment unless it is a special order. 7 days a week, we're available to assist with any/all questions about our products.

Orders are not charged until they ship. The only time they are is if we get a cancellation notice from our merchant account system. This will usually occur 7-14 days after the order is placed. So on something like a couple custom wood veneers subs we may need to charge before shipping. And we only send out tracking information when we ship a product. 95+ % of orders ship within one business day. Could we lower pricing across the board by delaying shipments 2-4-6 weeks? Sure, anytime you take money weeks/months ahead of time you can streamline cash flow to some degree.

We usually have 20-40 subwoofers and speakers pre built and ready to ship at any time. I'll include a picture of our (messy) warehouse in this post.

Build quality and fit and finish. Compare ours with competitors and I believe you'll see where some of the extra cost of product goes. And look for IN FOCUS close up shots before making any final judgments too.

Speaker crossovers are all designed, assembled, and tested in house. This insure product quality and consistency. Goto our "official speaker thread" and you'll see all products are performing to "spec" with no odd surprises. Every speaker is measured before boxing and shipping.

When looking at measured subwoofer performance pay close attention to metrics like the Waterfall, Impulse, Group Delay as well as FR and output. You may see the difference between a few months of engineering and a few minutes..

We also don't have our customers PMing folks here telling them NOT to purchase competitor products. But everyone seems to recognize that for what it really is lately.

I could go on and on but I have work to do..

At the end of the day there is a variety of quality options. And each will have its own set of "pros" and "cons" Each individual can weigh those as needed to make the best purchase decision for them. I just wanted to preset a few reasons why our products are priced the way they are.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
I guess these rules only apply in other threads...
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post #19285 of 37554 Old 05-22-2015, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Red99 View Post
Tom, since you have a lot of expertise on subs. Is there any drivers that can be driven to full excursion under 20Hz? Or is this a very difficult area to get full excursion? Because I was thinking maybe not, and full excursion is only at a narrow band of the FR and its a misconception.
Few subs can be driven to full excursion at full bandwidth.
This is evidenced by the many different passive tests on many commercial subs done by Ricci with the powersoft amp, where often large amounts of power were required to get the sub near maximum at higher frequencies. Typically the bottom octave places greater excursion demands on the driver.

If the question was to as our subs being either efficient or under-powered?, I think the test results from the previous models with the inferior Dayton amp indicate that the mating of single module to driver are ample matches. Albeit the Dayton produces some harsh THD figures at clipping admittedly.

The new amps sound and perform great and I am sure they sound just as fantastic in the new PSA subs as well. I would like to thank PSA for making quality products that are made in America, all those who support them and would like to wish everyone a very happy Memorial Day weekend.

Jeremy
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post #19286 of 37554 Old 05-22-2015, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post
Few subs can be driven to full excursion at full bandwidth.
This is evidenced by the many different passive tests on many commercial subs done by Ricci with the powersoft amp, where often large amounts of power were required to get the sub near maximum at higher frequencies. Typically the bottom octave places greater excursion demands on the driver.

If the question was to as our subs being either efficient or under-powered?, I think the test results from the previous models with the inferior Dayton amp indicate that the mating of single module to driver are ample matches. Albeit the Dayton produces some harsh THD figures at clipping admittedly.

The new amps sound and perform great and I am sure they sound just as fantastic in the new PSA subs as well. I would like to thank PSA for making quality products that are made in America, all those who support them and would like to wish everyone a very happy Memorial Day weekend.
Thanks for the input Jeremy. And the question wasn't related to any particular sub or brand. It was just a general question because I saw some post of excursions mentioned and I was curious about it. Just trying to learn more.
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post #19287 of 37554 Old 05-22-2015, 09:01 PM
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Since this is specifically a PSA subwoofer thread, it’s probably inappropriate to talk about competing subs. But my take is simple. All the I.D. companies I’m familiar with make interesting and quality products. I’d be thrilled to own couple different subs from any of these companies. I’ve fully appreciated the service I’ve received from both Tom here at PSA and Ed over at SVS. First class all the way. I suspect if I decide to choose one of Jeremy’s subs, he too would be a pleasure to deal with. I’m just thankful that we, as consumers, have a lot of quality products to choose from. I just wish I had enough rooms in my home to buy one from each company .

Music area: Magnepan 3.6, McIntosh MC2205 amp & C48 preamp, SVS SB13-Ultra, Oppo BDP 95, dbx 3BX, and assorted equipment.
Movie area: EMP Tek E5Bi (were rebadged to R5Bi), RBH/EMP Tek R55Ti, PSA S3000i, Denon X2000, Oppo BDP 83.
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post #19288 of 37554 Old 05-23-2015, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edgebsl View Post
Few subs can be driven to full excursion at full bandwidth.
This is evidenced by the many different passive tests on many commercial subs done by Ricci with the powersoft amp, where often large amounts of power were required to get the sub near maximum at higher frequencies. Typically the bottom octave places greater excursion demands on the driver.

If the question was to as our subs being either efficient or under-powered?, I think the test results from the previous models with the inferior Dayton amp indicate that the mating of single module to driver are ample matches. Albeit the Dayton produces some harsh THD figures at clipping admittedly.

The new amps sound and perform great and I am sure they sound just as fantastic in the new PSA subs as well. I would like to thank PSA for making quality products that are made in America, all those who support them and would like to wish everyone a very happy Memorial Day weekend.
Is there not a Reaction Audio forum?

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post #19289 of 37554 Old 05-23-2015, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post
Since this is specifically a PSA subwoofer thread, it’s probably inappropriate to talk about competing subs. But my take is simple. All the I.D. companies I’m familiar with make interesting and quality products. I’d be thrilled to own couple different subs from any of these companies. I’ve fully appreciated the service I’ve received from both Tom here at PSA and Ed over at SVS. First class all the way. I suspect if I decide to choose one of Jeremy’s subs, he too would be a pleasure to deal with. I’m just thankful that we, as consumers, have a lot of quality products to choose from. I just wish I had enough rooms in my home to buy one from each company .
I agree. It's a good age to be in this hobby because these ID companies are putting out some seriously good products at a cost that makes owning them possible. Just look at the cost of the name brand subs compared to equal or better performing ID company subs. The same holds true for speakers.

Personally if I had unlimited funds and space I would love to own a sub from PSA, Hsu, SVS, Rythmik, JTR, Funk, Seaton and Outlaw. It would great to be able to try all of them. They all look to be well worth owning.

But since I can't do that I'll enjoy my PSA products and the excellent customer service they come with.
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post #19290 of 37554 Old 05-23-2015, 08:10 AM
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@dsrussell and @Hopinater have made some very valid and level headed points about the past 12 or so hours here and I am sure that there are others watching this and waiting for the topic to get back on track. This being said, I can understand how a designer, engineer and owner of a company can get heated in defending his product and his livelihood. The ID companies are little fish in a big pond and sometimes the little fish bite back-I understand this as an Operation Manager for a small fish in another industry that has morphed over the past 10-15 years from smaller more personal independent dealer/service company to corporate entities taking over the sales and service side. In doing so, this industry has changed from the sustainable sales service rates that allow the proper maintenance of the fleet to cheapest rates out there where there is no way to properly maintain proper functionality.

Overall, I like the competition on this forum when it stays on task-it is what steered me towards the ID companies several years ago with no looking back and I see no reason to not bring up competitors so long as its done respectfully of the main course of the thread. Like Hop, I love the PSA product and the service that is provided is 2nd to none that I have experienced before. It's been pointed out, and rightfully so that this kind of business model costs money-just like a maintenance contract that is properly calculated and charged will provide proper functionality of the covered device. The support I receive on a 7 day per week basis if needed speaks volumes with my wallet, and yes it does tend to sway my purchasing, but that doesnt mean that the others are ever out of the question. Tom will be one of the first to admit that there are plenty of great options out there other than his. Heck, I was able to spend 40 minutes on the phone discussing some of my issues on a Friday night of a holiday weekend and at the end of the conversation, I was assured that the support for my varied testing will be there Sat, Sun and on the holiday for at least half a day.

As others have pointed out, it really is a great time for this hobby and many of these ID companies are kicking ass and taking names while we are the ones getting the benefits !!

Ok, off of the soapbox and back to your regularly scheduled program.
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