Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 652 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #19531 of 27614 Old 06-02-2015, 10:28 AM
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^^^

Well, then...doesn't belong in the PSA thread.
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post #19532 of 27614 Old 06-02-2015, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Kbzeluck View Post
Just ordered a PSA XV15 last week that should be here this friday!!!

Just came across a Hsu vtf-3 mk3 that is local to me and thinking about picking it up for a good price. I am a newb to the HT systems. My question is would theHsu vtf-3 mk3 match up well with a XV15?
Run the vtf-3 in max extension mode to minimize and phase shift related cancellation. You'll be about half or less in terms of clean output(compared to the XV15) so if possible position the hsu much closer to the key seating.

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post #19533 of 27614 Old 06-02-2015, 10:50 AM
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^^^ yes different sub but reason why I posted here was lots of help and good advice I picked up from bunch of you guys at this particular thread about usage of REW( like within last hours as well), tweaking the sub placement and interest in use of EQ, antimode , that I did not find in other threads including the antimode thread itself . REW thread is good but mostly quite overwhelming.So, as I do antimode EQ and Audyssey tonight I will post it here for folks interested in seeing how it works/helps and might consider buying it,the deal that all of you interested in that option get from buying through PSA is hard to match. After that I will stop placing non-PSA graphs here. Then again, buying and trying dual S1500's is still real possibility in the weeks to come.
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post #19534 of 27614 Old 06-02-2015, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
exactly my point that if the sweep is compressing at 95db...NO WAY he is getting usable output to 8hz. it has to be VERY loud down there to get anything usable

I have 3 xs30's in a 1300cu.ft room and I finally am able to get usable output that low...thats 6 15" drivers...vs his 2 12" drivers..not happening
Well, the rooms are a variable. 95dB around 8-10hz seems about right. With a sealed room <1500 cu-ft you can see crazy amounts of room gain. 15dB or more at 10hz wouldn't be unusual. So, let's assume 15dB at 10hz. That means a single SB2000 would need to hit something like 65dB at 10hz outside? Seems close.

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post #19535 of 27614 Old 06-02-2015, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Well, the rooms are a variable. 95dB around 8-10hz seems about right. With a sealed room <1500 cu-ft you can see crazy amounts of room gain. 15dB or more at 10hz wouldn't be unusual. So, let's assume 15dB at 10hz. That means a single SB2000 would need to hit something like 65dB at 10hz outside? Seems close.

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Im not discounting his room gain...what I am discounting is the ability to hear (well feel in this case) anything below 10hz with his setup because you have to get to very loud levels at 10hz for it to be even remotly noticeable...

95db ain it unless its a sine wav in optimal conditions I know there is a curve graph that shows as you go lower the volume needs to go up..let me see if I can find it

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post #19536 of 27614 Old 06-02-2015, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
Im not discounting his room gain...what I am discounting is the ability to hear (well feel in this case) anything below 10hz with his setup because you have to get to very loud levels at 10hz for it to be even remotly noticeable...

95db ain it unless its a sine wav in optimal conditions I know there is a curve graph that shows as you go lower the volume needs to go up..let me see if I can find it

EDIT:
couple things come to mind---mostly thinking out loud.

1)His compression sweeps don't show much compression down low, he may have another 5dB(or more) in he tank.

2)Sweeps are going to be 2-3-4dB lower than (in max output) versus a movie---just steady state versus transient.

3)When he talks about the deep bass effects from his sub I though he was referencing the difference from the mains alone(we only extended to 25-30hz)? If so, his subjective impressions will be due to the 8hz to 25hz range.

Anyway,

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post #19537 of 27614 Old 06-02-2015, 01:06 PM
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95db of bass output is not loud at all...I am guessing his mic cal is off. MV -0 should be in the 113-115db range unless the subs are calibrated wrong. Anyway we need to see where compression starts. So post some new graphs here or in a new thread. I am curious to see either way.
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post #19538 of 27614 Old 06-02-2015, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
95db of bass output is not loud at all...I am guessing his mic cal is off. MV -0 should be in the 113-115db range unless the subs are calibrated wrong. Anyway we need to see where compression starts. So post some new graphs here or in a new thread. I am curious to see either way.
So, got some crazy measurements after running antimode today, appears it just canceled the room gain, that threw of Audyssey as well, as it followed whatever Antimode did to subwoofer signal.
See the graphs below, I will need to rerun the Antimode,to see if this was a fluke measurement or not...
As I bypassed the antimode and ran the sweeps trying with and without Audyssey, the room gain/extension down low has returned, and overall response actually looked better with no audysey...
So above took me good 90 mins or more, got late and my wife was not happy with me running compression sweeps at 1030PM, so I did just two sub-only sweeps, at 0MV ( got extra 1 dB above the measure at 0MV from yesterday,) and 4+MV was the highest my AVR allowed and then the compression was visible(just added that one to sweeps from yesterday on the graph).
Now, the highest I tried the volume knob on the subs was 12 o'clock, and it can go to 5 PM, so one of these days I will do proper, sub only compression sweeps to see how much more juice is hiding in the subs.

Anyway, more meddling with EQ in my next few weeks
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post #19539 of 27614 Old 06-03-2015, 05:16 AM
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Thnaks to PSA, Tom and company, I am now a prooud owner of a second XV15SE! I have them stacked behind the couch for now. Once the weekend comes I can pull out the UMIK and fire up REW! I turned it on and put in Fury....put even a bigger smile on my face than before!
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post #19540 of 27614 Old 06-03-2015, 05:50 AM
 
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Originally Posted by lizrussspike View Post
Thnaks to PSA, Tom and company, I am now a prooud owner of a second XV15SE! I have them stacked behind the couch for now. Once the weekend comes I can pull out the UMIK and fire up REW! I turned it on and put in Fury....put even a bigger smile on my face than before!
Any localization with them stacked that close behind you? Congrats on the purchase, they look great.
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post #19541 of 27614 Old 06-03-2015, 06:42 AM
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Any localization with them stacked that close behind you? Congrats on the purchase, they look great.
Not really from what I have noticed, but I just ran a few scenes from Fury. I sit on the other end of the couch, and actually right in front of the subs on the couch, and did have some rumble in the couch all over. The wife noticed the rumble upstairs as well. I will run REW and UMIK this weekend, as I have them run thru a mini-dsp as of now. Now just to get the wife and kids out of the house for a day. Thanks, as I am very happy with duals!
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post #19542 of 27614 Old 06-03-2015, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by sinisanav View Post
So, got some crazy measurements after running antimode today, appears it just canceled the room gain, that threw of Audyssey as well, as it followed whatever Antimode did to subwoofer signal.
See the graphs below, I will need to rerun the Antimode,to see if this was a fluke measurement or not...
As I bypassed the antimode and ran the sweeps trying with and without Audyssey, the room gain/extension down low has returned, and overall response actually looked better with no audysey...
So, is this graph with Audyssey on or off?




As has been already said, there is something very strange going on with your measurements....I am very suspect of the measurements showing you are getting extension down to 6 or 7hz with those subs, just seems too good to be true. There has to be something going on there.

Quote:
So above took me good 90 mins or more, got late and my wife was not happy with me running compression sweeps at 1030PM, so I did just two sub-only sweeps, at 0MV ( got extra 1 dB above the measure at 0MV from yesterday,) and 4+MV was the highest my AVR allowed and then the compression was visible(just added that one to sweeps from yesterday on the graph).
Now, the highest I tried the volume knob on the subs was 12 o'clock, and it can go to 5 PM, so one of these days I will do proper, sub only compression sweeps to see how much more juice is hiding in the subs.
Your graphs don't match up so how do you know you are compressing?? Look at the response above 80hz, they don't match up at all. The top light blue line was taken with obviously different settings than the rest. If you're going to do compression sweeps, you need to do them all at the same time or using the exact same settings/mic placement.


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post #19543 of 27614 Old 06-03-2015, 08:47 AM
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ill say it again..no way 2 sb2000's are getting more extension in his room than my 3! xs30's
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post #19544 of 27614 Old 06-03-2015, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
So, is this graph with Audyssey on or off?

As has been already said, there is something very strange going on with your measurements....I am very suspect of the measurements showing you are getting extension down to 6 or 7hz with those subs, just seems too good to be true. There has to be something going on there.

Your graphs don't match up so how do you know you are compressing??


Audyssey OFF.
True. Today I am getting the USB extension cord, so will be able to use UMIK and HDMI combo and get clean setup without RCA cables, unplugging and such.
Correct, graphs don't match as I just added +4MV ( which started compressing at 10-12 Hz and not 80 ) sweep with subs only( no Center channel) on the sweeps done previous day( as I explained it was to late and noisy last night to run compression sweeps with kids sleeping). So, tonight , if time allows I will have HDMIand UMIK working and re-do it.

Re-running the Antimode calibration will need to wait for another day or so.
Thanks again.

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post #19545 of 27614 Old 06-03-2015, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by sinisanav View Post
Audyssey OFF.
True. Today I am getting the USB extension cord, so will be able to use UMIK and HDMI combo and get clean setup without RCA cables, unplugging and such.
Correct, graphs don't match as I just added +4MV ( which started compressing at 10-12 Hz and not 80 ) sweep with subs only( no Center channel) on the sweeps done previous day( as I explained it was to late and noisy last night to run compression sweeps with kids sleeping). So, tonight , if time allows I will have HDMIand UMIK working and re-do it.

Re-running the Antimode calibration will need to wait for another day or so.
Thanks again.
My point was; you don't know for sure if it was compressing at 10-12hz because the settings/mic placement were not exactly the same. Flawed methodology.

You'll know for sure once you get the extension and run the sweeps in succession...you may be right that it is compressing at that level, but right now you can't make that assumption.
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post #19546 of 27614 Old 06-03-2015, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
ill say it again..no way 2 sb2000's are getting more extension in his room than my 3! xs30's
Sorry Brian, but measured again today, multiple times and yes, I continue to get same extension, my room is good to me.
PSA subs, be it XS15se's as well as your XS30's will definitely have way more output. You are able to achieve that extension at 110-115 dB range , if I remember correctly, so you WILL feel it more then I do.
I am not only one who did this, though, here is the link to the postings on Home Theater Shack where they got similar extension with similar output up to about 100 dB pair of the same subs. So, I feel good that what I got is not a measurement failure.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...flat-10hz.html

If I wish to achieve the output you are having I will either have to buy couple more SB-2000's or switch to a pair of S1500, nothing bigger could fit in my room.

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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
My point was; you don't know for sure if it was compressing at 10-12hz because the settings/mic placement were not exactly the same. Flawed methodology.

You'll know for sure once you get the extension and run the sweeps in succession...you may be right that it is compressing at that level, but right now you can't make that assumption.
True, can't compare apples and oranges, here now proper sweep with subs only, no antimode or Audyssey, compressing at 4+MV( also max for my AVR), lots of distortion , at 0MV still got clean output with max THD of 4 %.

Learned a lot!
Also when I connected UMIK with 24ft extension, to use HDMI with different computer, it did not register, UMIK works only with 16 ft or less extension cord....
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post #19547 of 27614 Old 06-03-2015, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by sinisanav View Post
Sorry Brian, but measured again today, multiple times and yes, I continue to get same extension, my room is good to me.
PSA subs, be it XS15se's as well as your XS30's will definitely have way more output. You are able to achieve that extension at 110-115 dB range , if I remember correctly, so you WILL feel it more then I do.
I am not only one who did this, though, here is the link to the postings on Home Theater Shack where they got similar extension with similar output up to about 100 dB pair of the same subs. So, I feel good that what I got is not a measurement failure.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...flat-10hz.html

If I wish to achieve the output you are having I will either have to buy couple more SB-2000's or switch to a pair of S1500, nothing bigger could fit in my room.



True, can't compare apples and oranges, here now proper sweep with subs only, no antimode or Audyssey, compressing at 4+MV( also max for my AVR), lots of distortion , at 0MV still got clean output with max THD of 4 %.

Learned a lot!
Also when I connected UMIK with 24ft extension, to use HDMI with different computer, it did not register, UMIK works only with 16 ft or less extension cord....
Sorry didn't catch that earlier, USB only good to about 15', wouldn't go longer than that.........
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post #19548 of 27614 Old 06-04-2015, 08:03 AM
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Thanks, as I am very happy with duals!
Just wait till you try quads!
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post #19549 of 27614 Old 06-04-2015, 08:28 AM
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True, can't compare apples and oranges, here now proper sweep with subs only, no antimode or Audyssey, compressing at 4+MV( also max for my AVR), lots of distortion , at 0MV still got clean output with max THD of 4 %.
I see no compression on your +4MV sweep. You need to keep going.

Raise the sweep level in REW to measure even higher. That is what I do, in 3db increments until I see compression.

When you say there was "lots of distortion" at +4MV, just how much distortion? Can you post the graph?



Quote:
Also when I connected UMIK with 24ft extension, to use HDMI with different computer, it did not register, UMIK works only with 16 ft or less extension cord....
Back when I was using my desktop for measurements, I used one of these 32' "active" extension cables without issue.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...rch_detailpage
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post #19550 of 27614 Old 06-04-2015, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I see no compression on your +4MV sweep. You need to keep going.

Raise the sweep level in REW to measure even higher. That is what I do, in 3db increments until I see compression.
When you say there was "lots of distortion" at +4MV, just how much distortion? Can you post the graph?

Back when I was using my desktop for measurements, I used one of these 32' "active" extension cables without issue.
Barely noticeable in graph, but distortion was up to 15% on 21 Hz. Also at that last sweep REW said that it noticed clipping.
I have my output volume at 1.0, I read some that I might curb the clipping in REW by decreasing output volume level to 0.5 or such, without affecting SLP reading, correct?
Now how do I raise sweep level in REW, by decreasing dB FS level on out just before I start new measure sweep from -12 to -9, then -6 etc?

"active" extension cable ordered and arriving on June 5 Returning the regular extension cable back to Bestbuy...
THX!
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post #19551 of 27614 Old 06-04-2015, 11:20 AM
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Barely noticeable in graph, but distortion was up to 15% on 21 Hz. Also at that last sweep REW said that it noticed clipping.
I have my output volume at 1.0, I read some that I might curb the clipping in REW by decreasing output volume level to 0.5 or such, without affecting SLP reading, correct?
Yup, should work. BTW, that was me that recommended turning down the mic lvl.

However, my Windows mic lvl goes from 0-100 and I only had to turn it down to 30 to be able to measure up to 137db....not sure why you have to set yours so low, but we do have different mics (mine is a UMM-6).


Quote:
Now how do I raise sweep level in REW, by decreasing dB FS level on out just before I start new measure sweep from -12 to -9, then -6 etc?
Correct! Rew won't let you go higher than -3.

If you set your MV to "0" and start with a -33db sweep, you should see an average SPL in your graph of 75db (30db below the "reference level" of 105db). Of course, if your subs are running "hot" they will be accordingly higher.
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post #19552 of 27614 Old 06-04-2015, 11:27 AM
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Alan, the UMM-6 for some reason is easier to take high level sweeps...not sure why because I have not used a UMIK-1, but I can go up to 146db with out clipping according to REW. The only problem is my subs will not go that loud which is ok.
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post #19553 of 27614 Old 06-04-2015, 11:32 AM
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Here is a great write-up by @3ll3d00d on another forum concerning distortion and max level (compression) sweeps.

https://www.avforums.com/threads/diy...#post-21380195
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post #19554 of 27614 Old 06-04-2015, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Alan, the UMM-6 for some reason is easier to take high level sweeps...not sure why because I have not used a UMIK-1, but I can go up to 146db with out clipping according to REW. The only problem is my subs will not go that loud which is ok.
Maybe it has something to do with that built-in sens factor with the UMIKs....I still calibrate the SPL by hand each and every time I start REW(although it's been awhile since I've even fired up REW*). Was thinking I might get a UMIK just for the convenience of not having to do that....but it really only takes like 10 secs.

*Got a wife-less weekend coming up this weekend and plan on pulling the gear out and doing some measuring and tweaking on the T-18s....trying to get that last ounce of performance.
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post #19555 of 27614 Old 06-04-2015, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post
Just wait till you try quads!
Would love that, but need these to blend in before I shock the wife again. Maybe santa will bring me another sub or two!
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post #19556 of 27614 Old 06-04-2015, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by coolcat4843 View Post
Just wait till you try quads!
Had a dream about Quad V3600s last night. They levitated the audience. LOL

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post #19557 of 27614 Old 06-04-2015, 12:31 PM
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Just curious any word on when some of the newer ICE powered PSA subs will be tested/posted up on the data-bass site?
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post #19558 of 27614 Old 06-05-2015, 07:33 AM
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PSA put actual pictures of the V3600 up. I have to say it looks gorgeous. Congrats to anyone who got in on the pre-order pricing! It seems to be an absolute steal at that price! I'm so jealous!


I hope to hear a lot of feedback and impressions from those of you that ordered one....or 2 hahaha
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post #19559 of 27614 Old 06-05-2015, 07:38 AM
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Yeah just wish one would fit behind my screen :/ oh well
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post #19560 of 27614 Old 06-05-2015, 07:46 AM
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^^^ The V3600 looks like the XV30Fse on steroids.
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