Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 666 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #19951 of 37579 Old 06-18-2015, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
You saw this right?




It's the MiniDSP that is holding 'em back for some reason. Gonna try to sort it out tonight.
Alan,

I'm a novice when it comes to REW and the MiniDSP, but I'm patient and determined. That said, I've been reading up on calibrations, REW, MiniDSP, and Jerry's guide along with other things on the Internet and I came across some information on the MiniDSP site and was wondering if it applies to your situation, since the T-18 is a sealed sub.

On the site, it talks about using a Linkwitz Transform filter and seems to help extend out the sub's capabilities using this compared to the standard application model. Have you looked at this or given it a try?

http://www.minidsp.com/applications/...witz-transform

Best of luck!
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post #19952 of 37579 Old 06-18-2015, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
See my link to AustinJerry's awesome guide a couple posts up. I wish I would have had that guide when I got my MiniDSP a couple years ago.

It's the clipping that's getting me I think. Just have to measure my pre-out voltage and I should be good to go.
OK, so last night I measured my AVRs output voltage on the sub pre-outs...something very strange is going on I think. I need to confirm with AustinJerry, but this can't be right.

Following Jerry's MiniDSP guide here, the idea is to get your output voltage at .9v or lower so as not to clip the 2x4 unbalanced MiniDSP inputs (limited to .9v for Rev. A and 2.0v for Rev. B, easily changed with a jumper).

I didn't measure .9v until both sub trims were set to -12db (the lower limit on my Denon 4520)! I also checked to see where the sub trim would have to be if I switched the jumper for 2.0v input...that was at a sub trim of -6.5db where I saw 1.9v. I know that Jerry also has a 4520 and he got .9v at -4.5db. Now, I'm not sure if it matters at all where the sub trim is set in the AVR, but -12 seems a bit excessive....and I just don't like running things at the "max" setting of anything. I could swap the jumper and use -6.5 sub trim, but not sure if it will make any difference.



Anyways, after setting both sub trims to -12 and adjusting gain on the subs to get back to the SPL level I was at before (went from about 12:00 on the gain knob to about 3:00) I did some more compression sweeps (although I can't show them to you because my laptop crashed while saving the file ). I gained a little bit more headroom, got up to 112db without significant compression. I should be able to get more from the T-18s, but I'll be damned if I know what to try next.

I might try moving them around some, but the back of the room really is the only place these beasts can live. FYI, I have tried a few other locations (one front/one rear, both front, one rear/one sidewall) and the both in the rear of the room has always provided the best response. They are currently in the back corners, I may try moving them away from the corners again and see what I get.


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I believe Alan has listened to his setup for the better part of 6mo without tinkering.
I did, and I was happy! Damn you for trying the MiniDSP again and being successful.

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post #19953 of 37579 Old 06-18-2015, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by k1n3t1k View Post
Alan,

I'm a novice when it comes to REW and the MiniDSP, but I'm patient and determined. That said, I've been reading up on calibrations, REW, MiniDSP, and Jerry's guide along with other things on the Internet and I came across some information on the MiniDSP site and was wondering if it applies to your situation, since the T-18 is a sealed sub.

On the site, it talks about using a Linkwitz Transform filter and seems to help extend out the sub's capabilities using this compared to the standard application model. Have you looked at this or given it a try?

http://www.minidsp.com/applications/...witz-transform

Best of luck!
I have not done the Linkwitz Transform (I read about it a long time ago though), although the curve I currently have in the MiniDSP is very similar to the one shown for the transform....does that count?
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post #19954 of 37579 Old 06-18-2015, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I have not done the Linkwitz Transform (I read about it a long time ago though), although the curve I currently have in the MiniDSP is very similar to the one shown for the transform....does that count?
Hah! You're asking the wrong guy, but I would suspect YES!

Is there a chance there may be cable attenuation occurring when using cheaper RCA cables with small gauges to account for the discrepancies between your measurements and Jerry's? Maybe his cable between the AVR and the MiniDSP was longer, reducing the output voltage some?

Just throwing ideas out!
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post #19955 of 37579 Old 06-18-2015, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k1n3t1k View Post
Hah! You're asking the wrong guy, but I would suspect YES!

Is there a chance there may be cable attenuation occurring when using cheaper RCA cables with small gauges to account for the discrepancies between your measurements and Jerry's? Maybe his cable between the AVR and the MiniDSP was longer, reducing the output voltage some?

Just throwing ideas out!
That's a possibility....I do have some pretty long runs to my subs (35' and 50').

However, when I measured the output voltage it was with 1' RCAs plugged directly into the sub out jacks.

Maybe I'll measure the voltage at the end of the longer runs just to see. They are pretty beefy cables, albeit from Monoprice.
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post #19956 of 37579 Old 06-18-2015, 08:31 AM
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Fyi, this is a Facebook post from PSA.

Here is the final DSP shaping on the V3600i. This chart also includes a few different settings on the "room size" control too.
Remember, the "room size" only cuts. So the top curve is set to LARGE. I've found best overall sound quality in our office (about 4000 cu-ft) is with the room size set to about its mid-point on the rotation.
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post #19957 of 37579 Old 06-18-2015, 08:34 AM
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@ AlanP

What you have done is similar to the Linkwitz. Also you could probably try 5db instead of 8. That would give you 3db more headroom above 20hz and still be +/-3db down into the low teens. You will just have to experiment and find the best balance. I only said to try 8db because I knew it would bring the graph up so you were flat into the single digits, but remember any boost you apply down low is headroom you lose above the point of the low shelf filter. I fortunately had enough headroom to boost my low end.

I do not see you losing any headroom because of the mini dsp, you lost headroom from the low shelf filter. The mini will always show lower output levels then not being in the chain due to the subs seeing less input voltage. You have to compensate by turning the amp gains up and recalibrating. The kicker is can you hit the same levels without clipping? The test would be to turn all eq off in the dsp and run the same sweeps as you did without it in the chain, but make sure you recalibrate with it in the chain.

If the dsp is not clipping then the issue is your room. You seem to have some modal issue in your room that causes the subs to roll off earlier then the manufacturers rated +/-3db point. The XS15's were the same way. If you can not get it sorted by placement and are not happy with the current solutions, I think it would be wise to turn your large basement into separate rooms and make a nice small dedicated theater room. Or go back to how it was if you were happy.

Again, I still think if you are hitting 120 @ 30hz and above with no dsp, try 3-5db boost instead of 8 and that should bring your +/-3db point @ 12-15hz and you should still hit over 115db from 20-80hz.
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post #19958 of 37579 Old 06-18-2015, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
They are pretty beefy cables, albeit from Monoprice.
Yeah, Monoprice is solid stuff, usually. I order a LOT of cables from them, namely USB/VGA/DVI/DP/HDMI for computer/video setups at work and I've had a few hiccups with some of them. They use heavy wires, but I sometimes find the connection from the wire to the cable lead can be easily wiggled lose at times. Not saying that's the case for you, but I've found that not all cables are created equal!

I have a MiniDSP 2x4 I've been working on calibrating the last couple days and I just ordered an Anti-Mode 8033S-II from PSA yesterday to play with over the weekend. I'm going to calibrate my gear to the best of the abilities and see just how good the automatic capabilities from Anti-Mode truly are. I think I got everything figured out now, but it was after 10pm last night when I had my "Ah-hah!" moment and realized I was calibrating both subs together instead of individually to apply a separate correction config to each channel. Right now, my biggest struggle I'm facing is I am only getting 1-2dB of gain with my second sub and when I have just one turned on, it (audibly) has a much more detailed response and timber that I would expect. Turning on the other one (closer to the middle of the wall of the room, not corner loaded) reduces the detail in the reproduction, but you can feel the response from the slight dB gain.
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post #19959 of 37579 Old 06-18-2015, 08:45 AM
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Alan, not sure if this is an option, but have you ever tried both T18s right behind you?
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Yippee-ki-yay...
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post #19960 of 37579 Old 06-18-2015, 08:50 AM
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The base anti-mode is not on the same level as a mini dsp for calibrating multiple subs. You need the dual core for that. If you have a single sub then the base anti mode should work well but I do not see it doing things any better the XT32. Being you can try it for free, might as well give it a shot.
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post #19961 of 37579 Old 06-18-2015, 09:42 AM
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Nope…. I can't support that!

You can't take this discussion somewhere else because then I have to go and track it down and it's much more convenient to have this wealth of information right here in the PSA sub thread (where it belongs).

I use all these technical posts to increase my understanding of this hobby and I have no interest in paying someone to professionally calibrate my system when I can do it myself and learn a lot along the way.

Besides, this thread gets real boring real fast when all it consists of is congratulating one another on new subs (as fun as that is to do). What makes this thread so good is the sharing of information that allows us to better our HT setups.

So keep the wealth of knowledge flowing.
X2 on this....although when they really get going on the technical side, I sometimes feel like Penny on Big Bang Theory. Hell things started making sense to her too as the years went on so I guess I have some hope too
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post #19962 of 37579 Old 06-18-2015, 10:45 AM
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I understand trying to get the most out of your equipement trust me i know because i did the same for my display and then i decided to get it professionally calibrated.
I can't disagree more. Especially with a display. I've invested over 40 hours in perfecting my primary display calibration. I don't think a professional would dedicate that amount of time and perfection without charging hundreds. There is no way a pro is going to be able to get to know your setup/system as intimately as you do.
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post #19963 of 37579 Old 06-18-2015, 11:51 AM
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I usually do my own calibration, usually by eye. I made these to help. Started on my CRT's and worked my way up to my 8350 etc.






More http://imgur.com/a/9RNAu

Now back on topic.

SUBWOOFERS!!!!!
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post #19964 of 37579 Old 06-18-2015, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
@ AlanP

What you have done is similar to the Linkwitz. Also you could probably try 5db instead of 8. That would give you 3db more headroom above 20hz and still be +/-3db down into the low teens. You will just have to experiment and find the best balance. I only said to try 8db because I knew it would bring the graph up so you were flat into the single digits, but remember any boost you apply down low is headroom you lose above the point of the low shelf filter. I fortunately had enough headroom to boost my low end.

I do not see you losing any headroom because of the mini dsp, you lost headroom from the low shelf filter. The mini will always show lower output levels then not being in the chain due to the subs seeing less input voltage. You have to compensate by turning the amp gains up and recalibrating. The kicker is can you hit the same levels without clipping? The test would be to turn all eq off in the dsp and run the same sweeps as you did without it in the chain, but make sure you recalibrate with it in the chain.

If the dsp is not clipping then the issue is your room. You seem to have some modal issue in your room that causes the subs to roll off earlier then the manufacturers rated +/-3db point. The XS15's were the same way. If you can not get it sorted by placement and are not happy with the current solutions, I think it would be wise to turn your large basement into separate rooms and make a nice small dedicated theater room. Or go back to how it was if you were happy.

Again, I still think if you are hitting 120 @ 30hz and above with no dsp, try 3-5db boost instead of 8 and that should bring your +/-3db point @ 12-15hz and you should still hit over 115db from 20-80hz.
It's a living room, not a basement...and if you remember, I've considered building a wall to take it from 5K to 2.8K cubes....now that would be cool. Unfortunately, I'm going to have to wait at least a couple years before that can happen.

Very good point, it's the EQ that's probably eating up my headroom....anyways, I don't think I'm that worried about it. If I can get to -10MV without clipping or compression (and I can) I'm happy, I never listen louder than that.

I'm really enjoying the boost in the ULF, so thanks for that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by k1n3t1k View Post
Yeah, Monoprice is solid stuff, usually. I order a LOT of cables from them, namely USB/VGA/DVI/DP/HDMI for computer/video setups at work and I've had a few hiccups with some of them. They use heavy wires, but I sometimes find the connection from the wire to the cable lead can be easily wiggled lose at times. Not saying that's the case for you, but I've found that not all cables are created equal!

I have a MiniDSP 2x4 I've been working on calibrating the last couple days and I just ordered an Anti-Mode 8033S-II from PSA yesterday to play with over the weekend. I'm going to calibrate my gear to the best of the abilities and see just how good the automatic capabilities from Anti-Mode truly are. I think I got everything figured out now, but it was after 10pm last night when I had my "Ah-hah!" moment and realized I was calibrating both subs together instead of individually to apply a separate correction config to each channel. Right now, my biggest struggle I'm facing is I am only getting 1-2dB of gain with my second sub and when I have just one turned on, it (audibly) has a much more detailed response and timber that I would expect. Turning on the other one (closer to the middle of the wall of the room, not corner loaded) reduces the detail in the reproduction, but you can feel the response from the slight dB gain.
You've got a phase/time-alignment problem there. You should get close to +6db when you add the second sub. Do you have REW yet?


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Alan, not sure if this is an option, but have you ever tried both T18s right behind you?
Well, that's just crazy-talk right there.....or pure genius!

No, I have not tried that (purely for aesthetic reasons....I know, I know). I got nothing to lose, I'll give it a shot tonight!
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post #19965 of 37579 Old 06-18-2015, 01:46 PM
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I've invested over 40 hours in perfecting my primary display calibration. I don't think a professional would dedicate that amount of time and perfection without charging hundreds. There is no way a pro is going to be able to get to know your setup/system as intimately as you do.
They have invested thousands of dollars (test equipment) and hours long before they ever show up. Unless you own some exotic piece of equipment more than likely they will know it far better than you ever will as they have already "worked" on it countless times. I know the calibrator I have used with one look at the image would instantly tell me what I messed up even before he unloaded his equipment.
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post #19966 of 37579 Old 06-18-2015, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
You've got a phase/time-alignment problem there. You should get close to +6db when you add the second sub. Do you have REW yet?
Hell yeah I have REW, calibrated UMIK-1 and all; I'm setup, running measurements! I'm just skeptical of my actual numbers because they seem...not what I would expect 120+dB would sound like! I am not one to crank on the volume knob all the time and most of my TV viewing is between -30dB and -45dB with my Yamaha A-3040. With some music and movies, however, I let loose and it's not uncommon for me to hit -10, depending on how the tracks were recorded.

Anyway, I have played with the phasing adjustments on the amps to no avail. I've played a 40Hz tone last night at -20MV for a short time and they are loudest at their current setting of 0 degrees. I also played with the distance settings to each sub and verified that the further (+/- directions) I went away from their current spot, the less SPL I achieved. Is there anything else I could be missing/forgetting before I do some crawling for a new location?

I know in the MiniDSP config, the delay seems more precise. Currently, my subs are equidistant from the MLP at the front of the room, next to the LR speakers. I'm unsure if the MiniDSP delay/phasing will be any different than what I am able to currently test.

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post #19967 of 37579 Old 06-18-2015, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by k1n3t1k View Post
Hell yeah I have REW, calibrated UMIK-1 and all; I'm setup, running measurements! I'm just skeptical of my actual numbers because they seem...not what I would expect 120+dB would sound like! I am not one to crank on the volume knob all the time and most of my TV viewing is between -30dB and -45dB with my Yamaha A-3040. With some music and movies, however, I let loose and it's not uncommon for me to hit -10, depending on how the tracks were recorded.

Anyway, I have played with the phasing adjustments on the amps to no avail. I've played a 40Hz tone last night at -20MV for a short time and they are loudest at their current setting of 0 degrees. I also played with the distance settings to each sub and verified that the further (+/- directions) I went away from their current spot, the less SPL I achieved. Is there anything else I could be missing/forgetting before I do some crawling for a new location?

I know in the MiniDSP config, the delay seems more precise. Currently, my subs are equidistant from the MLP at the front of the room, next to the LR speakers. I'm unsure if the MiniDSP delay/phasing will be any different than what I am able to currently test.
If you have XT32 and SubEQ HT (and I think you do), you should be leaving the phase on both subs at 0. SubEQ HT will time-align the subs better than any phase control ever could.

So, with both subs at 0, when you turn one off how much of a drop in SPL is there??

Let's see some measurements!!
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post #19968 of 37579 Old 06-18-2015, 02:59 PM
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Alan, posting my measurements here is so intimidating - you guys have super flat lines and mine resembles the Alps! I'll share my stuff later tonight when I get home.

The Yamaha has YPAO and from what I can tell, is decent from 200Hz and up, but it was complete trash when calibrating the subs. I don't think it really did much of anything as I was able to use REW earlier this week and tame some +12dB nodes in the 40Hz region! I was able to copy the YPAO-FLAT to the MANUAL EQ setting and adjust the subs individually in there and verified I was making good progress with REW, so at least I can do that. (Don't think you can accomplish that with D&M) I've been very pleased with Yamaha before, but the YPAO is just frustrating to look at the results on a graph. I almost bought a Marantz last fall and, in some ways, wishing I had. On the bright side, the distances and levels seem to be spot on with YPAO and my speakers themselves look great. It's just the pesky low-end that it didn't seem to touch at all. The YPAO applied two bands on the EQ for the subs, 1 of which wasn't even in the crossover range!?! (250Hz) I run mine at 120Hz as I like the sound more.
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post #19969 of 37579 Old 06-18-2015, 03:13 PM
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Assembly area today:

Big and littles...

Tom V.
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post #19970 of 37579 Old 06-18-2015, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post
They have invested thousands of dollars (test equipment) and hours long before they ever show up. Unless you own some exotic piece of equipment more than likely they will know it far better than you ever will as they have already "worked" on it countless times. I know the calibrator I have used with one look at the image would instantly tell me what I messed up even before he unloaded his equipment.
I think we can agree to disagree on this one.

Some of the folks here on these forums including myself have an undeniable obsession to calibrate and perfect our systems... this makes us a bit more than a weekend warrior hobbyist. Maybe not quite a "professional" but really... whats the difference? Oh wait I know the answer to that one... professionals get paid for their services!? That must make me a professional because every time I calibrate a family/friends television they give me beer and I don't even have to ask
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post #19971 of 37579 Old 06-18-2015, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by jhughy2010 View Post
I think we can agree to disagree on this one.

Some of the folks here on these forums including myself have an undeniable obsession to calibrate and perfect our systems... this makes us a bit more than a weekend warrior hobbyist. Maybe not quite a "professional" but really... whats the difference? Oh wait I know the answer to that one... professionals get paid for their services!? That must make me a professional because every time I calibrate a family/friends television they give me beer and I don't even have to ask
My display calibrator started this way years ago. Now he has his own company, travels the East Coast as well as a few trips to LA area every year, He is now THX certified instructor and gives entry level to professional classes including one overseas (Jaban IIRC).

Not raining on your parade man , but this really is a great country where someone can take a hobby that started with beer and pizza to this level !!!

And yeah, some of his gear is in the $10K cost range per unit. He was here last December for a touch up and brought my 6 year old Kuro right back to spec again.

Now back to subwoofers...................
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Last edited by gbreda; 06-18-2015 at 05:58 PM.
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post #19972 of 37579 Old 06-18-2015, 07:08 PM
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Tom, I can't wait to hear my friend's V3600i from my house! If it is truly ~3x of what I have now, I may need to get earthquake insurances.

Ok folks - so I don't think this is entirely the best area to write this (I'll write something up in the Yamaha A-XX40 Series thread) but here it goes:

I think Yamaha is doing something strange with sub pre-outs. So before my A3040, I had a V773WABL (same one basshead81 uses) and my bass was 'funny' then as well. I bought a UMIK-1 and experimented with REW last year and got things sounded good. The sub 2 (right sub) has always had a better sound than my left one (they are next to the speakers up front) and when turning on the sub 1, I lost that detail and timbre.

To cut to the chase, I have tried sub 1 in a few spots in my listening area, but nothing really improved. It's always been 'meh' response, always slightly less than sub 2. (keep in mind, sub 2 is near the corner, about 2ft from a side wall, both subs are 6" from the wall, currently) Tonight, I decided to hook up sub 1 to sub 2 instead of both to the AVR. I used the line outputs on sub 2 to connect up my sub 1 inputs, so the receiver only sees 1 sub. I figured this would work since everything is symmetrical in terms of distance to the MLP and other measurements. HOLY COW! It's exactly the sound I've been looking for.

Here's the funky part: Turning on Sub 1, even with no cable hooked to the output, my bass sounds off again! The subs in tandem are both on Sub 2 output, but enabling sub 1 breaks everything again! I don't know what to say - I want to say it's the receiver, but this is my second Yamaha and even on an entirely different lineup. My neighbor has the V773WABL as well, but only one sub. When he gets his V3600i next week, I'm going to play around and see if I can reproduce the same thing there.

So, does anyone have any idea what would do that? Yes, I did switch RCA cables out to make sure it wasn't something bad in the line. To be honest with you guys, I don't even want to hook up my mic and cables to run tests. I'm just so satisfied with the sound that I need to just relax and reward myself from my efforts! The graphs and technical stuffs can wait.
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post #19973 of 37579 Old 06-18-2015, 07:31 PM
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I don't know about you my friend but I would like to know what's going on there, that Yamaha's price is nothing to sneeze at. Be ready for a serious wake up call when you audition your friends 3600i.

To be honest I really didn't understand what you were trying to convey in your post, I'm sorry I can't help you as I don't know what's up, all I got from it was I'm leaving it the way it was and going to enjoy......

Cheers Jeffrey
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post #19974 of 37579 Old 06-18-2015, 07:57 PM
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My 773 sub out is just a internal Y into 2 sub outputs. They are not 2 discrete outputs...so I do not understand how there could be a variance in bass in either output. I have flip flopped the connections and have never noticed a difference between the 2.
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post #19975 of 37579 Old 06-18-2015, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbreda View Post
My display calibrator started this way years ago.
Hey ya gotta start somewhere!
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post #19976 of 37579 Old 06-18-2015, 09:03 PM
 
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I think the v3600 is a little to much for $2299. I considered it at pre order pricing. I think that price was perfect for this speaker. Above 2k is a little to much in my opinion.
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post #19977 of 37579 Old 06-18-2015, 09:18 PM - Thread Starter
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I think the v3600 is a little to much for $2299. I considered it at pre order pricing. I think that price was perfect for this speaker. Above 2k is a little to much in my opinion.
I would disagree, Consider how the V3600I compares to the XV30Fse.

From Facebook,

Quote:
Output is almost double the XV30Fse from 15hz to 125hz. The differences range from 4.9dB to 6.7dB. Average from 16-100hz is 5.8dB

V3600 output. (CEA-2010 averaged)
16-25hz ~ 122.3
31-50hz ~ 132.3
63-100hz ~ 136.0
16-100hz ~ 131.8
https://www.facebook.com/powersoundaudio

You're getting nearly twice performance. Also consider that the V3600I should compare very well against two co-located PB Ultra 13's especially in the mid / upper bass. Is the V3600 small, or low priced no its not. But it's also a hell of a good performer if you need that much output in one box. Also this includes shipping. It actually wouldn't surprise me if the cap 1400 and the V3600I are in the same league price wise (Cap is $1999 without included shipping)

I do wonder if anyone is planning a shoot out of those two subs.
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Last edited by oneeyeblind; 06-18-2015 at 09:23 PM.
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post #19978 of 37579 Old 06-18-2015, 09:30 PM - Thread Starter
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I will also say if you wanted two subs the V1500's are still a very good option.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post
I would disagree, Consider how the V3600I compares to the XV30Fse.

From Facebook,



https://www.facebook.com/powersoundaudio

You're getting nearly twice performance. Also consider that the V3600I should compare very well against two co-located PB Ultra 13's especially in the mid / upper bass. Is the V3600 small, or low priced no its not. But it's also a hell of a good performer if you need that much output in one box. Also this includes shipping. It actually wouldn't surprise me if the cap 1400 and the V3600I are in the same league price wise (Cap is $1999 without included shipping)

I do wonder if anyone is planning a shoot out of those two subs.
I'm sure it will be a great sub. But I think its over priced at $2299. SVS PB ultra 13 is an established sub with years of existence. The V3600 just came out. Plus, if your going to have a sub over $2K its competing with Seaton, JTR, etc...Great example is Hyundai with the Genesis, its wants to compete with Mercedes and other luxury cars. The Genesis is a good car and Hyundai has been producing good cars for a couple years now. My point is for a couple thousand more they can get a Mercedes, BMW, etc... And most people will go that route. I believe in volume, sell more at a lower cost. It will probably beat many subs out there, but we still don't know that for sure.
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I will also say if you wanted two subs the V1500's are still a very good option.
Any PSA sub will be a great audition to any HT room. When your pushing over 1K, most people are not going to make 1K decision in one shot. They are going to research, shop around, look at customer services, Finishes, etc... before they make that purchase. There is so much competition out. You have I.D companies with very good subs out there right now. Pricing is crucial and I don't know the profit margin for PSA or any other company so its hard to say what's a great price for the customer.
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