Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 670 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #20071 of 21512 Old 06-19-2015, 07:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

As far as the cap14 and v3600i....these are much more similar in their intended/optimal applications. We're priced about $100(?) more or so...so about a 5% difference in pricing? Would our product be worth another 5% to some folks? Much more mid and upper bass headroom, a completely different fit/finish, significantly longer warranty(5 years), and let's face it...each company has different commitments to customer service. Would these variables be worth another 5% to some? We're continuing to sell V3600i since the pre-order has ended and we're into August(!) now for new orders. I think that answers that question...

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
That is assuming you can even buy a Cap1400. I still have several unanswered emails and phone calls into JTR. The last phone call was "hey Jeff call me so I can give you my credit card info". If I don't get a return call on that vmail, I would hate to wonder how the "hey, my amp died- call me back" would be received.
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post #20072 of 21512 Old 06-19-2015, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by csnow View Post
Since you bring up a Lexus analogy, I find this fitting. Back in the late 80's Toyota wanted to enter into the US luxury market. The concept Lexus (Luxury EXport U.S. market) was founded. In Japan, all vehicles are Toyota. Americans were willing to pay a premium for a name brand that made them "feel" better about themselves. Most Lexus owners who purchased the "luxury" SC300 would be mortified if they found out the same car in Japan it is the Toyota Soarer. They will be really upset knowing their "luxury" sedan is nothing more than a rebadged Toyota Camry or Avalon. Nissan and Honda did the same with their Infinity and Acura lines. Not to say that Toyota hasn't expanded and invested in the brand Lexus over the years, but that is how it came to be. I am just pointing out that the illustration you used can be used to argue a counter point. Consumers, especially in America, are more concerned with perceived value and status based on how it rates them against others from a social standpoint versus actual value based on the product alone.
I think this actually further support my analogy. In your case, the Toyota(black box) had the time to prove themselves that they are the same thing as the lexus with a better price. Like I said, until new ID companies can prove themselves, then it is common sense for people to spend an extra money to get the products that are more established. There are many other cases where spending the extra money vs the unknown is well worth it, hence the saying "You get what you pay for"
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post #20073 of 21512 Old 06-19-2015, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But new subs are always going to be "just came out". After designing subwoofers for 15-20 years I believe Jim and I have established a pretty good track record and have the confidence of a good percentage of fellow audio enthusiasts.

So we're hyundai and jtr is mecedes? Okay.....what can I say to that....everyone is entitled to their opinion...

Very few people considering the V3600i would also be considering the SUBM. These are two very different subwoofers that provide optimal value in different ways and in different room environments. Most of these folks would be looking at the S3000i at $1499 or duals for $2849 IMO.

As far as the cap14 and v3600i....these are much more similar in their intended/optimal applications. We're priced about $100(?) more or so...so about a 5% difference in pricing? Would our product be worth another 5% to some folks? Much more mid and upper bass headroom, a completely different fit/finish, significantly longer warranty(5 years), and let's face it...each company has different commitments to customer service. Would these variables be worth another 5% to some? We're continuing to sell V3600i since the pre-order has ended and we're into August(!) now for new orders. I think that answers that question...

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
How come you didn't give me this answer when I was seeking for opinion on what to buy All I got was, both products are good, you can't be wrong.....
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post #20074 of 21512 Old 06-19-2015, 07:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Aspen0220 View Post
I think this actually further support my analogy. In your case, the Toyota(black box) had the time to prove themselves that they are the same thing as the lexus with a better price. Like I said, until new ID companies can prove themselves, then it is common sense for people to spend an extra money to get the products that are more established. There are many other cases where spending the extra money vs the unknown is well worth it, hence the saying "You get what you pay for"
?????

I think you are confused. You do realize Toyota owns Lexus. Lexus cars have Toyota engines, transmissions, etc. Lexus was nothing more than a Toyota with lipstick. Lexus was founded to feed American consumer pride and arrogance - period.

Toyota was founded in 1937. Lexus was founded in 1989 by Toyota.
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post #20075 of 21512 Old 06-19-2015, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by tristian0507 View Post
Dude I don't like you! Your always trying to bully people with the technical side of things. Like I said in that department I couldn't make a strong case. I would need someone from Seaton to comment on that. Based alone specs people will take the subm everytime. Your noting but a fanboy it's ridiculous.
Great...the feeling is mutual.

Bully people with the technical side of things lmao...classic! How do you know people will take the SubM everytime? Do you have a magic crystal ball in front of you?

The Seaton SubM master/slave is over 4k shipped.

A pair of 3000i are 2849.00 shipped.

I am a Fan of Mark Seaton as well. Very knowledgeable person that makes solid products. I enjoy reading his posts when he does post here.
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post #20076 of 21512 Old 06-19-2015, 07:49 AM
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The fact is, as far as I know, the V3600 is the ONLY dual 18 inch ported sub on the market. All other dual front facing subs that are ported that I have seen is 15 inch, and all 18 inch models are sealed. So PSA has a one of a kind sub. So you cant compare it with any others.
PSA only has 2 18 inch subs. V3600 and the T18. You CAN NOT compare cost of a SVS sub with a single 13 inch driver to one with dual 18 inch drivers.
And for the ones that dont know and think SVS is far better, Tom and Jim came from SVS.
Oh you certainly CAN compare the performance of the 13u to the V3600i....just be sure to bring $4000-$6000 worth of ultras. Suddenly that $2299 pricing doesn't seem so bad...

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post #20077 of 21512 Old 06-19-2015, 07:50 AM
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Well, we will know a lot more in a week (or less) because people will start getting their new V3600's set up and running and the impressions will start rolling in.

But Csnow is right, 3rd party testing would really go a long way in verifying what subs are at a proper price point and what subs are over priced. The best any of us can do is give subjective (and biased) impressions.

Having said that, it's the subjective impressions of people like Basshead, Jeff, Brian, Alan and others in these threads that have led me to the products that have helped me create a HT setup that I absolutely love. So I have no problem with subjective impressions and reviews, my system is built on them. The key is reading through enough posts so you can figure out who's opinions and thoughts you trust enough to base a purchase off of.

And knowing you have a 30 day trial period with free return shipping takes the risk out of it. Why more ID companies don't have that model is a head scratcher.
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post #20078 of 21512 Old 06-19-2015, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by tristian0507 View Post
Dude I don't like you! Your always trying to bully people with the technical side of things. Like I said in that department I couldn't make a strong case. I would need someone from Seaton to comment on that. Based alone specs people will take the subm everytime. Your noting but a fanboy it's ridiculous.
Like I posted earlier...SubM + RA 218 +XS30se will be compared in a few weeks...I'll see if I can post some of their thoughts since I won't be on hand for this...if I though the XS30 se wouldn't acquit itself admirably I would not have offered to have it participate. Even if the other 2 subs one larger and both more powerful nudge ahead of it or are found to be superior...I take a lot of pride in owning the xs30se its still a great sub.



Just my 2 cents..
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post #20079 of 21512 Old 06-19-2015, 07:54 AM
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?????

I think you are confused. You do realize Toyota owns Lexus. Lexus cars have Toyota engines, transmissions, etc. Lexus was nothing more than a Toyota with lipstick. Lexus was founded to feed American consumer pride and arrogance - period.

Toyota was founded in 1937. Lexus was founded in 1989 by Toyota.
All I am saying is that, in your case, the Toyota is actually better purchase because people realized what a Toyota actually is. In other cases, it will be the other way around and you get a better value by paying more.
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post #20080 of 21512 Old 06-19-2015, 07:56 AM
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How come you didn't give me this answer when I was seeking for opinion on what to buy All I got was, both products are good, you can't be wrong.....

I'm sorry but I have no idea what context this comment is from? Did you purchase the cap14 because I said both would be similar in performance? If so, I wouldn't be frowning its a great product.

Tom V.
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post #20081 of 21512 Old 06-19-2015, 07:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by tristian0507 View Post
Dude I don't like you! Your always trying to bully people with the technical side of things. Like I said in that department I couldn't make a strong case. I would need someone from Seaton to comment on that. Based alone specs people will take the subm everytime. Your noting but a fanboy it's ridiculous.
I will be the first to call a fan boy a fan boy. Basshead is far from it. He posts in almost ever vendor thread and to my knowledge has ever touted his purchase as superior to any said product. He is always neutral and just loves the hobby. Is he a bit nerdy on the technical side - well that is a topic for another discussion I do wish I knew half of what these fellas talk about with waterfalls, charts, graphs, the thinga-ma-witcher with the do-dad and how it relates to the poly-wagger.
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post #20082 of 21512 Old 06-19-2015, 08:01 AM
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I'm sorry but I have no idea what context this comment is from? Did you purchase the cap14 because I said both would be similar in performance? If so, I wouldn't be frowning its a great product.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
This is the reason why I hate it when ID brands play nice with each other. I know both are great products but I want to get the best for my money. Your previous answer to me is the same thing I got from you the last time..... "cap is a great product, you can't be wrong" vs
Quote:
We're priced about $100(?) more or so...so about a 5% difference in pricing? Would our product be worth another 5% to some folks? Much more mid and upper bass headroom, a completely different fit/finish, significantly longer warranty(5 years), and let's face it...each company has different commitments to customer service. Would these variables be worth another 5% to some?
Anyway, I'm not mad at you or anything please don't hate me
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post #20083 of 21512 Old 06-19-2015, 08:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
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Originally Posted by tristian0507 View Post
I'm sure it will be a great sub. But I think its over priced at $2299. SVS PB ultra 13 is an established sub with years of existence. The V3600 just came out. Plus, if your going to have a sub over $2K its competing with Seaton, JTR, etc...Great example is Hyundai with the Genesis, its wants to compete with Mercedes and other luxury cars. The Genesis is a good car and Hyundai has been producing good cars for a couple years now. My point is for a couple thousand more they can get a Mercedes, BMW, etc... And most people will go that route. I believe in volume, sell more at a lower cost. It will probably beat many subs out there, but we still don't know that for sure.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But new subs are always going to be "just came out". After designing subwoofers for 15-20 years I believe Jim and I have established a pretty good track record and have the confidence of a good percentage of fellow audio enthusiasts.

So we're hyundai and jtr is mecedes? Okay.....what can I say to that....everyone is entitled to their opinion...

Very few people considering the V3600i would also be considering the SUBM. These are two very different subwoofers that provide optimal value in different ways and in different room environments. Most of these folks would be looking at the S3000i at $1499 or duals for $2849 IMO.

As far as the cap14 and v3600i....these are much more similar in their intended/optimal applications. We're priced about $100(?) more or so...so about a 5% difference in pricing? Would our product be worth another 5% to some folks? Much more mid and upper bass headroom, a completely different fit/finish, significantly longer warranty(5 years), and let's face it...each company has different commitments to customer service. Would these variables be worth another 5% to some? We're continuing to sell V3600i since the pre-order has ended and we're into August(!) now for new orders. I think that answers that question...

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
There is nothing wrong with Hyundai! They produce good cars with good service and warranty? People are jumping into conclusions when the product just came out. As a business it's what you do. I respect that, your taking a shot at this price range. Sales are great for the v3600, hey noting but love! But, can the v3600 sustain sales at $2299 long term? Can you convert a SVS PB ultra 13 to a v3600 at $2299? At $1799 it was easier to covert them.
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post #20084 of 21512 Old 06-19-2015, 08:02 AM
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Car analogies work for me since this is an A/V forum and just like any good car both engines & speakers need break-in...

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Wheeew….. There's smoke coming out of my computer this thread is moving so fast today.
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post #20086 of 21512 Old 06-19-2015, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by tristian0507 View Post
I'm not mad, I just don't understand people saying its correct at $2299 when it was $1799 a few days ago. But I'm not even arguing that point. At $2299 it's in a price range where it's competing with well established products with allot of fan base. Let me remind people that the v3600 just came out, we don't know what it can do in the real world. I'm sure it will do great! Again, PSA has done this many times. I'm not arguing its performance, I'm arguing specs vs. price. But to answer your question, the Nissan GT-R is a v6 and out performs cars that are v8-v10 that cost double the amount. You can have both ways.
How do you know they did not offer the V3600 nearly at cost at the $1799 intro price? Perhaps to get some excitement built and generate some word of mouth? Maybe $2299 is the price they need to sell it at to sustain the long term profitability of their business?

From a performance standpoint, lets take a look at a few things in comparison to other benchmarks in the industry.
PB13-Ultra. The V3600 should offer at least 50%more output in the low bass, and double the output, perhaps much more, in the mid and upper bass. 15% more cost for 50-200% more performance sounds reasonable based on a cost/performance ratio. Doesn't it to you?

Seaton Submersive: V3600 will likely have at least double the output of this sub in the low bass, and equal or higher output in the mid and upper bass for less money.

JTR Cap1400: V3600 should have similar low bass output, but should have more mid and upper bass output for around the same cost. The PSA comes with more perks.

Official 3rd party test results will be very interesting to see on the V3600. The most interesting comment I have seen concerning this sub was from Tom V., and this is paraphrased, not quoted. I remember him saying something along the lines of....the low bass output of the Cap1400, with mid and upper bass output approaching the highest output ID horn subs. So to me, if this turns out to be the case, this is indeed a very unique offering. A footprint larger than a single driver 18, much smaller than the monster output horns, but a blend of the performance of both products with an overall size in between the two.

Taking into account the cost/performance ratio, along with the value of things like being made in the usa, a 5 year bumper to bumper warranty, exceptionally high finish quality, free shipping, the best customer service in the business from the owner himself, excellent product availability, company stability and credibility, those with any knowledge of the current market and offerings have no basis in reality to question the validity of the current price point of the V3600. Just my opinion, but common sense does come into play.
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post #20087 of 21512 Old 06-19-2015, 08:15 AM
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I think the v3600 is a little to much for $2299. I considered it at pre order pricing. I think that price was perfect for this speaker. Above 2k is a little to much in my opinion.
I was planning on ordering this but work schedule pushed me past psa deadline. The 500 dollar jump makes this no longer an option if I want to do two units.

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post #20088 of 21512 Old 06-19-2015, 08:18 AM
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How do you know they did not offer the V3600 nearly at cost at the $1799 intro price? Perhaps to get some excitement built and generate some word of mouth? Maybe $2299 is the price they need to sell it at to sustain the long term profitability of their business?

From a performance standpoint, lets take a look at a few things in comparison to other benchmarks in the industry.
PB13-Ultra. The V3600 should offer at least 50%more output in the low bass, and double the output, perhaps much more, in the mid and upper bass. 15% more cost for 50-200% more performance sounds reasonable based on a cost/performance ratio. Doesn't it to you?

Seaton Submersive: V3600 will likely have at least double the output of this sub in the low bass, and equal or higher output in the mid and upper bass for less money.

JTR Cap1400: V3600 should have similar low bass output, but should have more mid and upper bass output for around the same cost. The PSA comes with more perks.

Official 3rd party test results will be very interesting to see on the V3600. The most interesting comment I have seen concerning this sub was from Tom V., and this is paraphrased, not quoted. I remember him saying something along the lines of....the low bass output of the Cap1400, with mid and upper bass output approaching the highest output ID horn subs. So to me, if this turns out to be the case, this is indeed a very unique offering. A footprint larger than a single driver 18, much smaller than the monster output horns, but a blend of the performance of both products with an overall size in between the two.

Taking into account the cost/performance ratio, along with the value of things like being made in the usa, a 5 year bumper to bumper warranty, exceptionally high finish quality, free shipping, the best customer service in the business from the owner himself, excellent product availability, company stability and credibility, those with any knowledge of the current market and offerings have no basis in reality to question the validity of the current price point of the V3600. Just my opinion, but common sense does come into play.
How dare you use logic to come up with such a excellent post.
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post #20089 of 21512 Old 06-19-2015, 08:21 AM
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I was planning on ordering this but work schedule pushed me past psa deadline. The 500 dollar jump makes this no longer an option if I want to do two units.

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Call and talk to Tom, I'm sure he will work with you, he is a great guy.
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post #20090 of 21512 Old 06-19-2015, 08:23 AM
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There is nothing wrong with Hyundai! They produce good cars with good service and warranty? People are jumping into conclusions when the product just came out. As a business it's what you do. I respect that, your taking a shot at this price range. Sales are great for the v3600, hey noting but love! But, can the v3600 sustain sales at $2299 long term? Can you convert a SVS PB ultra 13 to a v3600 at $2299? At $1799 it was easier to covert them.
I have to agree with you there, at $1799 we'd probably be out into October with sales at this point. That may seem favorable but it really presents its own set of hurdles.

I had 3 or 4 phone calls with our cabinet vendor yesterday that practically turned into shouting matches about inventory and production capabilities. We should be in the slowest time of the year for ID/CE sales IME and the last 45 days have been more than DOUBLE our previous best 45 day span. And this isn't counting the V3600i pre-orders!

Tom V.
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post #20091 of 21512 Old 06-19-2015, 08:24 AM
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I was planning on ordering this but work schedule pushed me past psa deadline. The 500 dollar jump makes this no longer an option if I want to do two units.

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As mentioned email/call or chat when you have time. Thanks.

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post #20092 of 21512 Old 06-19-2015, 08:30 AM
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thread cleanup

move on and stick to technical issues please

thanks

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post #20093 of 21512 Old 06-19-2015, 08:38 AM
 
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I'm not mad, I just don't understand people saying its correct at $2299 when it was $1799 a few days ago. But I'm not even arguing that point. At $2299 it's in a price range where it's competing with well established products with allot of fan base. Let me remind people that the v3600 just came out, we don't know what it can do in the real world. I'm sure it will do great! Again, PSA has done this many times. I'm not arguing its performance, I'm arguing specs vs. price. But to answer your question, the Nissan GT-R is a v6 and out performs cars that are v8-v10 that cost double the amount. You can have both ways.
How do you know they did not offer the V3600 nearly at cost at the $1799 intro price? Perhaps to get some excitement built and generate some word of mouth? Maybe $2299 is the price they need to sell it at to sustain the long term profitability of their business?

From a performance standpoint, lets take a look at a few things in comparison to other benchmarks in the industry.
PB13-Ultra. The V3600 should offer at least 50%more output in the low bass, and double the output, perhaps much more, in the mid and upper bass. 15% more cost for 50-200% more performance sounds reasonable based on a cost/performance ratio. Doesn't it to you?

Seaton Submersive: V3600 will likely have at least double the output of this sub in the low bass, and equal or higher output in the mid and upper bass for less money.

JTR Cap1400: V3600 should have similar low bass output, but should have more mid and upper bass output for around the same cost. The PSA comes with more perks.

Official 3rd party test results will be very interesting to see on the V3600. The most interesting comment I have seen concerning this sub was from Tom V., and this is paraphrased, not quoted. I remember him saying something along the lines of....the low bass output of the Cap1400, with mid and upper bass output approaching the highest output ID horn subs. So to me, if this turns out to be the case, this is indeed a very unique offering. A footprint larger than a single driver 18, much smaller than the monster output horns, but a blend of the performance of both products with an overall size in between the two.

Taking into account the cost/performance ratio, along with the value of things like being made in the usa, a 5 year bumper to bumper warranty, exceptionally high finish quality, free shipping, the best customer service in the business from the owner himself, excellent product availability, company stability and credibility, those with any knowledge of the current market and offerings have no basis in reality to question the validity of the current price point of the V3600. Just my opinion, but common sense does come into play.
Your not going to put a product at a price point to not make profit. That's stupid. Word of mouth, that's what the 20yrs of experience is for. Common sense is different for every person, now that is common sense.
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post #20094 of 21512 Old 06-19-2015, 08:41 AM
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I hope these work flawlessly for you for years. However, I wouldn't use those cables on my Polk PSW110, let alone $3k subs. I blew out two amps on my XV15se's due to the "premium" monoprice cables shorting out from barely touching them while connected to the subs. I now have those cables in the appropriate place....the landfill. BJC.
I know, I know....been meaning to get some BJC just haven't got around to it....although I have never had any issues with the MP stuff, and I always turn off my subs if I know I'm going to be messing with any cabling.
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post #20095 of 21512 Old 06-19-2015, 08:47 AM
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There is nothing wrong with Hyundai! They produce good cars with good service and warranty? People are jumping into conclusions when the product just came out. As a business it's what you do. I respect that, your taking a shot at this price range. Sales are great for the v3600, hey noting but love! But, can the v3600 sustain sales at $2299 long term? Can you convert a SVS PB ultra 13 to a v3600 at $2299? At $1799 it was easier to covert them.
Who in their right mind (assuming they have done their homework) would pay $2k for an Ultra in today's market unless they needed the asthetic appeal of the Ultra? The 3600 at $300 more than an Ultra would be a no brainer. This is coming from someone who owns and loves his 3 PB13s and has a 3600 coming, but the last Ultra I bought was 6 years ago for $1499+ship and the market was MUCH different back then. 6+ years ago, SVS was a much better bang/buck compared to today. No way would I buy the PB13 in todays market at 2k.

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post #20096 of 21512 Old 06-19-2015, 08:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tristian0507 View Post
There is nothing wrong with Hyundai! They produce good cars with good service and warranty? People are jumping into conclusions when the product just came out. As a business it's what you do. I respect that, your taking a shot at this price range. Sales are great for the v3600, hey noting but love! But, can the v3600 sustain sales at $2299 long term? Can you convert a SVS PB ultra 13 to a v3600 at $2299? At $1799 it was easier to covert them.
Who in their right mind (assuming they have done their homework) would pay $2k for an Ultra in today's market unless they needed the asthetic appeal of the Ultra? The 3600 at $300 more than an Ultra would be a no brainer. This is coming from someone who owns and loves his 3 PB13s and has a 3600 coming, but the last Ultra I bought was 6 years ago for $1499+ship and the market was MUCH different back then. 6+ years ago, SVS was a much better bang/buck compared to today. No way would I buy the PB13 in todays market at 2k.
Again, I don't think the v3600 will sustain sales at $2299 long term based on what's out there. But I don't know that or anybody else! Time will tell....
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post #20097 of 21512 Old 06-19-2015, 09:03 AM
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My goodness. I used to really like coming to these forums and the threads around here. Anymore? All I see is bickering and fighting. No wonder I don't stop by much anymore.

Personally, I certainly hope people start utilizing PM.
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post #20098 of 21512 Old 06-19-2015, 09:07 AM
 
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My goodness. I used to really like coming to these forums and the threads around here. Anymore? All I see is bickering and fighting. No wonder I don't stop by much anymore.

Personally, I certainly hope people start utilizing PM.
I guess I am a drama queen because I enjoy debates, especially on topics I find interest in. I personally find the "Enjoy your sub Bob - great purchase" posts dry and ho-hum. I much prefer debate and technically relevant threads. I don't like them turning to personal attack or insults but sometimes a duck has to be called a duck when he/she thinks they are a swan.
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post #20099 of 21512 Old 06-19-2015, 09:10 AM
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I guess I am a drama queen because I enjoy debates, especially on topics I find interest in. I personally find the "Enjoy your sub Bob - great purchase" posts dry and ho-hum. I much prefer debate and technically relevant threads. I don't like them turning to personal attack or insults but sometimes a duck has to be called a duck when he/she thinks they are a swan.
I completly agree...problem is if you do your considered a fan boy (of another company if calling out the duck) and get attacked personally and they start attacking the company of what YOU own...

people get so defensive of what they own....
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post #20100 of 21512 Old 06-19-2015, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by tristian0507 View Post
Again, I don't think the v3600 will sustain sales at $2299 long term based on what's out there. But I don't know that or anybody else! Time will tell....
You could be right, tough to predict. Compared to other like priced products I'd say we have a good shot though. Another byproduct of my disagreements with the cabinet vendor yesterday was the potential for lowering the final pricing a LITTLE. I was trying to figure out what to "bump" to add more V3600i cabinets. In that discussion I mentioned that...okay, if we're increasing each of the next two builds by a factor of 2x or even 3x...that must make it more efficient for your side of things too. So the V3600i costing will drop at these higher MOQs. He agreed but wasn't sure about the final discount yet. We'll pass whatever savings on that we get. It's never going to be $1799 again though.

Tom V.
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