Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 691 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 07-07-2015, 11:24 AM
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I was surprised too since I never heard of it happening with PSA before, but check out my photo.
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Old 07-07-2015, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Jaredseahawks View Post
In terms of my performance goal. Well, this is the way I look at it, there is a mustang v6 and mustang Saleen v8. Probably only need and ever use the power of the mustang v6. BUT, I know the Saleen is there. Probably won't ever use its true power, but I know it's there if I ever need to Stupid and not very smart, but isn't this what it's all about
Well, based on your earlier comments it sounds like WAF is priority #1 . You should probably show her the comparison pictures in this thread/our website so she'll have a good idea of size and finish quality. No sense consider a big black mini fridge if there's no way she'll go for anything larger than a S3000i. I'll include a few more shots of our veneers if you haven't visited our facebook page.

In terms of "fit and finish" quality----I suggest looking over the threads here at AVS for pictures of each product. And not pictures from 10ft away a little out of focus... You'll bump into a variety of pictures and comments. Judge for yourself.

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Old 07-07-2015, 12:09 PM
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Fwiw...Over 2 year on my subs and no seams showing.

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Old 07-07-2015, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
That really surprises me with the Yamaha receivers as they've had a really good track record with problems or failures, I don't care for their RC software, but other than that I thought they were pretty good. Thanks Tom for the heads up.

@Hop , I'll have the misses sew you up a nice cushion, what's your a** size?...

Cheers Jeff
Hi Jeff,

I still have a couple of older Yammies at home in secondary systems with no problems at all. The issues we've run into seem to be limited to the newer lineup. Even when they are working okay, they still seem to require using a Y split in many cases for optimal bass.

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Old 07-07-2015, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles R View Post
I'm trying to come up with a way to compare a few subs right now. I have a 10" powered and 12" passive in my fronts (happy with them) and shortly I'll have a sub in each corner of the screen wall. What I plan on doing is playing one of the stand alone subs and then telling the receiver I don't have a sub and setting the fronts to large. That might not be as good as using the LFE input on the fronts but I have compared using both (fronts set to large and (small using LFE)) in the past and never noticed a difference. It will save me a few cables swaps especially if I want to compare multiple times.

This way I should be able to compare them fairly quickly. Once I have done this with one sub I'll disconnect it and connect the other and calibrate. Then do another comparison. I'm just "fighting" with what I should use for test material. I know I could simply turn one sub up a few decibels and it would be the winner.
Setting the mains to large, sub to *no* should redirect the LFE channel to both towers.

Any reason why you will only be comparing one sub to both towers?

For the listening sessions you may be surprised. If the separate subs are located in better spot they may have audibly smoother FR at your seating. Also, be sure to experiment with the delays on the sub(s) to optimize integration with the system before final judgement too.

I always prioritize music for listening sessions. At the least, use movies that have good soundtracks..

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Old 07-07-2015, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Any reason why you will only be comparing one sub to both towers?
I'm auditioning two different subs. I have never owned a "real" sub and couldn't decide between sealed and ported so I'm going to try one of each (similar in power and cost). I'll probably end up with two of whatever I decide to go with but I didn't want to order two now. I'd hate to ship two back and I'll see how happy I would be with just one. Again I don't have much (knowledge) to base it on.

I have received one of them and threw it in the front left-hand corner. Calibrating it my Yamaha set it 2 or 3 decibels hot (according to the RS meter) versus the other speakers (they were all within .5 decibel). I have used chapter 7 of the Crank Blu-ray for years to compare various audio configurations. It's not bass heavy but has some although it has a lot of dialogue which I can judge rather easily. And since most movies are dialogue driven... I rely on it quite a bit.

Well needless to say it wasn't a good test of the subs as I could hear very little difference. So I got serious and played chapter 16 of Oblivion. First using the fronts and everything was great. More than happy. However using the stand alone it was another story. There was an undertone that didn't exist using the fronts. More of a deep no-stop current. Afterwards I went back to the fronts and again it was missing in action.

Wondering if perhaps the sub was simply hotter I lowered it 2 decibels (or so) and it was still there. Clearly the fronts can't produce the same presence. I should probably use the front's LFE input but as I stated before I have compared using it versus setting them to large and haven't noticed much if any difference. Although using the LFE input on the fronts I can increase their output and see if that helps.

Once I get the other sub and I'll repeat the process and also compare the two subs. At this point I know it's worthwhile to add a sub "or two"...

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Old 07-07-2015, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
I was surprised too since I never heard of it happening with PSA before, but check out my photo.
Interesting. I have 18 months on an XV15 and have no seams showing. Sorry that happened to yours Fatty.
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Old 07-07-2015, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Interesting. I have 18 months on an XV15 and have no seams showing. Sorry that happened to yours Fatty.
No worries Hop, the seams rob zero enjoyment from my subs.

I only brought it up because it seemed valid in his search of subwoofers with a high emphasis on aesthetics. I wonder if the veneer options ever show anything like that?
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Old 07-07-2015, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
No worries Hop, the seams rob zero enjoyment from my subs.

I only brought it up because it seemed valid in his search of subwoofers with a high emphasis on aesthetics. I wonder if the veneer options ever show anything like that?
No seams should ever show on a veneered product, considering that veneering involves covering the surface with another layer of wood.
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Vizio E601I-A3; Darbee Darblet; Pioneer Elite BDP-62FD universal blu-ray player; Pioneer Elite SC-67 AVR, Dual PSA XS15se's; Monitor Audio Silver RX-6 mains, RX center, and RX surrounds; Home-built HTPC (Xeon E1230, 16gb RAM, Crucial M500 480gb SSD, Radeon R280, Corsair CX600, CoolerMaster mini-ITX case)
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Old 07-07-2015, 02:43 PM
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No seams should ever show on a veneered product, considering that veneering involves covering the surface with another layer of wood.
Perfect. Then if I were him I would do a veneered option to ensure optimal aesthetics for the products entire life.
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Old 07-07-2015, 02:52 PM
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No seams should ever show on a veneered product, considering that veneering involves covering the surface with another layer of wood.
Not true...some of the thicker veneers could be susceptible to humidity, moisture or excessive dryness...I had a tiny hairline split ~1mm deep & ~4-5" long occur on my one of my speakers...coincidentally the entire cabinet was replace free of charge..

That's why I research from whom I'm buying my subs and/or speakers...I would hate to get caught up in some fly by night outfit...here today gone tomorrow....when dealing with these sort of issues.
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Old 07-07-2015, 02:55 PM
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Not true...some of the thicker veneers could be susceptible to humidity, moisture or excessive dryness...I had a tiny hairline split ~1mm deep & ~4-5" long occur on my one of my speakers...coincidentally the entire cabinet was replace free of charge..

That's why I research from whom I'm buying my subs and/or speakers...I would hate to get caught up in some fly by night outfit...here today gone tomorrow....when dealing with these sort of issues.
A well-applied veneer should never show any seams, period. A hairline split is not acceptable by any means.

My humble system:

Vizio E601I-A3; Darbee Darblet; Pioneer Elite BDP-62FD universal blu-ray player; Pioneer Elite SC-67 AVR, Dual PSA XS15se's; Monitor Audio Silver RX-6 mains, RX center, and RX surrounds; Home-built HTPC (Xeon E1230, 16gb RAM, Crucial M500 480gb SSD, Radeon R280, Corsair CX600, CoolerMaster mini-ITX case)
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Old 07-07-2015, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by sk373 View Post
A well-applied veneer should never show any seams, period. A hairline split is not acceptable by any means.

Well here is a walnut veneer applied on my last sub take a close look on the upper edge...that was not there when I first got the sub but over time it became fairly visible.

My xs30se finish is immaculate...


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Old 07-07-2015, 05:12 PM
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Billy, what sub is that?
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Old 07-07-2015, 05:18 PM
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I really like the PSA veneer options. Absolutely beautiful looking subs.

Lucky for me I also really like the standard PSA finish because it's a lot less expensive. This allows me to funnel the money I save into other things. Like…more speakers and subs.
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Old 07-07-2015, 05:28 PM
 
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Sitting here watching ice age continental drift 3d with my son. And all I can think is damn I have an awesome sounding setup!!!
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Old 07-07-2015, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
I like where your mind is at!

Most of us here buy more subwoofer than we need. However, IMO that's better than the alternative which is buying less subwoofer than you want…. and then spending the next few months wondering "What if… What if I had bought that bigger sub, what would that be like?"

Once that question burrows into your brain you can't get rid of it. So after a year you end up buying the subwoofer you wanted to buy in the first place. In the end you spend more money and end up in the same place. I know that sounds crazy but I bet there are plenty of guys here who have done this (I'm one of them).

It's cheaper to get the big guns that you really want right from the start than it is to buy and sell subs until you end up where you wanted to be all along anyway.

Congratulations, you seem to have already realized this. I wish I had realized it earlier.
excellent advice hop......IF tom and jim quit coming out with newer and better stuff all the time. it's almost like buying a computer....as soon as you get it the newer better model is out, lol.
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Old 07-07-2015, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Billy p View Post
Well here is a walnut veneer applied on my last sub take a close look on the upper edge...that was not there when I first got the sub but over time it became fairly visible.

My xs30se finish is immaculate...




What sub is that?

My humble system:

Vizio E601I-A3; Darbee Darblet; Pioneer Elite BDP-62FD universal blu-ray player; Pioneer Elite SC-67 AVR, Dual PSA XS15se's; Monitor Audio Silver RX-6 mains, RX center, and RX surrounds; Home-built HTPC (Xeon E1230, 16gb RAM, Crucial M500 480gb SSD, Radeon R280, Corsair CX600, CoolerMaster mini-ITX case)
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Old 07-07-2015, 07:19 PM
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Billy, what sub is that?

Hey...Hop....it's a custom build sub variant of a funkywaves fw12x. The original used the TC sounds LMS-R...the driver in the picture is an AE av12x...the LMS likely dug a bit deeper...the 12x had a slight advantaged in the igher pass bands...IIRC.

The biggest difference between the 2 drivers was the inductance levels on the LMS made it much harder to drive due to the lower sensitivity ratings...the 12x efficiency aloowed it to be driven real loud with ~500watts...the LMS needed a at least 2-3 times that to reach the same levels...I wanted a simple to use on board amp + sub and not have deal with external amplification and REQ...I have that same approach to this day...I like things simple.


Btw...it was only a 12" sub that was kinda the norm back in the day...lol.
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54" of Panny Bliss, Anthem MRX 300, Oppo BDP-103D,
Apple TV+ Giga 1800

Sub FA 18: (Santos RW)
Indian proverb: We don't inherit the earth from our ancestors but we borrow it from our children!
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Old 07-07-2015, 07:23 PM
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excellent advice hop......IF tom and jim quit coming out with newer and better stuff all the time. it's almost like buying a computer....as soon as you get it the newer better model is out, lol.

Damn straight!!

All we need to do is cut the cord to the internet....yeah, right
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Old 07-07-2015, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Billy p View Post
Hey...Hop....it's a custom build sub variant of a funkywaves fw12x. The original used the TC sounds LMS-R...the driver in the picture is an AE av12x...the LMS likely dug a bit deeper...the 12x had a slight advantaged in the igher pass bands...IIRC.

The biggest difference between the 2 drivers was the inductance levels on the LMS made it much harder to drive due to the lower sensitivity ratings...the 12x efficiency aloowed it to be driven real loud with ~500watts...the LMS needed a at least 2-3 times that to reach the same levels...I wanted a simple to use on board amp + sub and not have deal with external amplification and REQ...I have that same approach to this day...I like things simple.


Btw...it was only a 12" sub that was kinda the norm back in the day...lol.
Isn't that the truth. Heck just 20 months ago I was seriously considering a SVS 12" sub thinking that it was big. But I opted for a PSA 15" sub instead because it was HUGE. Now I feel like a 15" sub is standard and the 18" subs are big.

Makes you wonder what our posts will look like in 2 years. We may find ourselves talking about owning dual V4800's for HT and using our "small" S3000's to add some "light" bass to our computer speakers.
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Old 07-07-2015, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
Sitting here watching ice age continental drift 3d with my son. And all I can think is damn I have an awesome sounding setup!!!
While I'm not there to hear it Brian I'm confident that I have a pretty good idea of what it sounds like and I'm even more confident it sounds incredible.
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Old 07-07-2015, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Isn't that the truth. Heck just 20 months ago I was seriously considering a SVS 12" sub thinking that it was big. But I opted for a PSA 15" sub instead because it was HUGE. Now I feel like a 15" sub is standard and the 18" subs are big.

Makes you wonder what our posts will look like in 2 years. We may find ourselves talking about owning dual V4800's for HT and using our "small" S3000's to add some "light" bass to our computer speakers.
To be honest that is not the case for me. I have owned the same subs for over 2yrs now and am happy with them. 15" subs still seem large and so is the sound that comes out of them(I had 15's in my truck back in the day too). I feel that many times folks blame the sub when in reality it is the room or setup that is the problem. I have spent a ton of time dialing in my subs and the rewards were worth it...I still smile when I let the triple XV's legs stretch. Does a V3600I sound cool, hell yes, but I see no reason to upgrade because what I have is reference capable down into the 16-18hz range.


I believe that one should purchase a sub system that will net reference levels cleanly down into the 16hz range. Anything more then that is just plain overkill, which there is nothing wrong with that btw. Point is, if more folks had this mentality when purchasing subs the first time, there would be a lot less upgrading going on. Some rooms need big 18" subs to hit reference levels down into the teens, where other rooms can do it with a pair of 12's. So yes it is nice to see these monster subs coming out so those with 5000^3 + rooms can experience what I do in a room half the size.

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Old 07-07-2015, 09:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Another thing to consider with going with a bigger subwoofers and bigger / higher efficiency speakers (considering PSA offers both) is that you're not fighting physics and you need less tricks to try and overcome driver size or system performance.

And even more importantly sound quality doesn't need to be sacrificed to get the SPL required.
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ShaunH

Last edited by oneeyeblind; 07-07-2015 at 11:31 PM.
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Old 07-07-2015, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Well, based on your earlier comments it sounds like WAF is priority #1 . You should probably show her the comparison pictures in this thread/our website so she'll have a good idea of size and finish quality. No sense consider a big black mini fridge if there's no way she'll go for anything larger than a S3000i. I'll include a few more shots of our veneers if you haven't visited our facebook page.

In terms of "fit and finish" quality----I suggest looking over the threads here at AVS for pictures of each product. And not pictures from 10ft away a little out of focus... You'll bump into a variety of pictures and comments. Judge for yourself.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Logging on every morning hoping for a picture of a certain S3000 in natural cherry veneer on this thread!

The wait time...its killing me!
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Old 07-08-2015, 04:55 AM
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There are some good shots on the Facebook page also of many of the veneers. Here's one I pulled down.
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Old 07-08-2015, 05:36 AM
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There are some good shots on the Facebook page also of many of the veneers. Here's one I pulled down.
I have seen the veneer pictures, but I am waiting for a pic of MY S3000i in Natural Cherry.

Ordered a bit more than a week ago.
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Old 07-08-2015, 05:38 AM
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Ahhhh, gotcha! Congrats and have fun with the new baby when it arrives!
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Old 07-08-2015, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Isn't that the truth. Heck just 20 months ago I was seriously considering a SVS 12" sub thinking that it was big. But I opted for a PSA 15" sub instead because it was HUGE. Now I feel like a 15" sub is standard and the 18" subs are big.

Makes you wonder what our posts will look like in 2 years. We may find ourselves talking about owning dual V4800's for HT and using our "small" S3000's to add some "light" bass to our computer speakers.
I know some of the above is in jest, at least I HOPE so, but enclosure size is the forgotten variable in a lot of these discussions. Per your point Hop, look at the recent photo with the XS30se being the "little" subwoofer in the mix. I'd estimate 80-90% of our potential customers consider it to be "too big". What type of potential customer base would something TWICE as large really have?

We STILL sell a good number of XV15 and XV15se. Why? Because of the price/performance/SIZE ratio. Anyone leaving out any of these three variables is really missing the boat with regards to potential sales imo.

Jim and I always talk about a cost no object, size no object "statement" design. But part of me always feels like that would be cheating from an engineering POV. The whole huge driver in a huge box thing just doesn't seem like much of a challenge. I sort of got that out of my system back in the 90's with some of my monster DIY stuff.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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Old 07-08-2015, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
To be honest that is not the case for me. I have owned the same subs for over 2yrs now and am happy with them. 15" subs still seem large and so is the sound that comes out of them(I had 15's in my truck back in the day too). I feel that many times folks blame the sub when in reality it is the room or setup that is the problem. I have spent a ton of time dialing in my subs and the rewards were worth it...I still smile when I let the triple XV's legs stretch. Does a V3600I sound cool, hell yes, but I see no reason to upgrade because what I have is reference capable down into the 16-18hz range.


I believe that one should purchase a sub system that will net reference levels cleanly down into the 16hz range. Anything more then that is just plain overkill, which there is nothing wrong with that btw. Point is, if more folks had this mentality when purchasing subs the first time, there would be a lot less upgrading going on. Some rooms need big 18" subs to hit reference levels down into the teens, where other rooms can do it with a pair of 12's. So yes it is nice to see these monster subs coming out so those with 5000^3 + rooms can experience what I do in a room half the size.
Yeah I was just joking around with that post but what you say here is spot on Bass.

I think this explains everything in such a way that it will help a lot of people who are trying to decide about subwoofers. Your post should be cut and pasted into every sub thread.

In my case I made three mistakes when I was buying my first subs.
1) I grossly under measured my room because I didn't know what I was doing.
2) I underestimated my performance demands.
3) I tried to save money (thus I have ended up spending more).

So I'm the living proof of what you say. For me the V3600 was the upgrade I really needed because it's given me the ability to get reference down to that 16 to 18 Hz range you talk about (I really couldn't care less about single digits). But I have a massive area of open space to pressurize. So as you said, some rooms require monster subs to achieve what others can get with smaller subs in smaller rooms.

Now I'm putting in the time (you discussed) dialing in the system.
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