Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 697 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #20881 of 37538 Old 07-11-2015, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
Jeff: After you set both your subs ( first step) to lets say 75dbs. I would then combine both subs on a Y splitter together and re-run the first step, Audyssey will display the combined output. The easiest way would to just break out your SPL meter, and calibrate each sub to 75db then measure both together.
Hey Mike, no matter what method I use SPL or Audy mic I still have to use a Y splitter to measure the combined output of both subs correct? Am I missing something? TIA

Cheers Jeffrey
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post #20882 of 37538 Old 07-11-2015, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
Holy Smokes!! … Dual V3600's!?

That's going to be FUN!
Hey Jim, I've been talking with Bob (BAD1550), he's going to have dual 3600s in a converted attic into bedroom space which I believe is sealed and approx. 23-2500cf, talk about destroying your house. When he fires them both up and is laying on his bed it's going to feel like he's in a cheap pay by the hour motel with the old quarter machine vibrating beds, I know some of you guys have been in those motels...........

Cheers Jeffrey
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post #20883 of 37538 Old 07-11-2015, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by poster View Post
Just ordered a S3000i yesterday. I'm lacking in experience and knowledge, but after reading so many good sub stories, I decided to take the plunge. When deciding where to put it, is there a place I should start at (front, rear, near seating area) before trying to figure out the best spot? Are there keys/tips for a beginner when trying to figure out the best area for the sub?

Not the biggest movie buff, but I definitely want to look into getting sub that will provide enjoyment with the new sub. Is the bass thread the place to look or should I just comb through the thread to see other movie recommendations?

Also wanted to say thanks to Tom who answered all of my many back and forth questions before I decided on this sub. My audio system is getting much better thanks to PSA!

Also can't believe that picture Eric posted a couple of pages back, amazing!!! Enjoy that, my friend.
Congratulations! I guess you heard the phrase, "Go big or go home." .

Is the S3000i replacing a subwoofer you already have, or is this your very first subwoofer? Either case, the first place to start is the subwoofer crawl test to locate the best area to place your subwoofer. Yeah, I know the S3000i is very heavy, so you're going to need help (it's a 2-man lift). If you already own a subwoofer and did the subwoofer crawl test to position that sub, the S3000i could go there.
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post #20884 of 37538 Old 07-11-2015, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Hey Jim, I've been talking with Bob (BAD1550), he's going to have dual 3600s in a converted attic into bedroom space which I believe is sealed and approx. 23-2500cf, talk about destroying your house. When he fires them both up and is laying on his bed it's going to feel like he's in a cheap pay by the hour motel with the old quarter machine vibrating beds, I know some of you guys have been in those motels...........

Cheers Jeffrey
LMAO…your description created a visual and I started laughing. He won't have any shingles left on the roof after the first week.
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post #20885 of 37538 Old 07-11-2015, 06:44 PM
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@Russell , I'm no Audy expert by any means but I was taught to set the gain on sub(s) a little higher than the reco'd 75 dBs and then do a quick 1 step sweep to see where Audy sets the sub(s) trim levels. Ideally the sub(s) trim level should be -3.5 to - 7.5 dBs. If you get these numbers then run a full calibration, as like I said I was taught to always be on the negative side of 0 dB.

I'm old school, I've been into audio since I was kid at 17 years old, so all this processing is like Chinese to me, that's why I listen to the better informed than myself. Back then everything was done by ear (45 years ago )... my system consisted of stereo speakers, preamp and amp, a turntable and a sub that looked like a coffee table with spring loaded speaker terminals, never did figure out to use it......... EDIT: VHS (Video Home Systems) and BETAMAX VCRs also included..............

Cheers Jeffrey
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post #20886 of 37538 Old 07-11-2015, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post
Congratulations! I guess you heard the phrase, "Go big or go home." .

Is the S3000i replacing a subwoofer you already have, or is this your very first subwoofer? Either case, the first place to start is the subwoofer crawl test to locate the best area to place your subwoofer. Yeah, I know the S3000i is very heavy, so you're going to need help (it's a 2-man lift). If you already own a subwoofer and did the subwoofer crawl test to position that sub, the S3000i could go there.
I agree with dsrussell and I would also suggest investing $35 - $50 in a Radio Shack SPL meter. That's better than depending on just your ears to locate the best spot when you do the crawl.

Let us know if you aren't familiar with what we are talking about. The guys here are very helpful, someone will jump in and help very quickly.

Oh Yeah…Congratulations on your new subwoofer.
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post #20887 of 37538 Old 07-12-2015, 09:12 AM
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No serious HT guy can be w/o a SPL meter...they are the least expensive measurement tool but serve an absolutely critical function. Of course, once you take the first step it is a slippery slope to more detailed measurements using REW or Omnimic.
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post #20888 of 37538 Old 07-12-2015, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by REM Germany View Post
Logging on every morning hoping for a picture of a certain S3000 in natural cherry veneer on this thread!

The wait time...its killing me!
Sorry this took so long. We've been extra busy trying to coordinate the logistics on a couple of big shipments coming up in August.

Pictures don't do it justice really. This new Natural Cherry finish is gorgeous. Wait until the amp and drivers are installed...the contrast will look amazing...

Tom V.
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post #20889 of 37538 Old 07-12-2015, 12:03 PM
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Well, so far I haven’t really sat down and enjoyed the sub like I said I would (probably doesn’t come as a great surprise to many). Last night I upped the gain on both subs and reran Audyssey … yet again. Where I was getting a sub trim level of -2.5 (on each sub), I’m now at a trim level setting of -6 (on each sub). Big difference? Except for perhaps a 1 to 1.5 dB output gain from the original setting (the tolerance of my SPL meter C-weighting), the answer is no. There was a consistent 1/2 dB (inaudible) output gain of the S3000i over the XS30 at the -6 setting and the -3 and 0 modified trim levels I tried. The XS30 is placed 6 inches farther from my seating position (measured from the center of the subs to my listening position) than the S3000i and might account for some of that very minor variance. When running both subs together, I was again reading 1 to 1.5 dB output gain, which again, is the tolerance limit of my SPL meter (from 30 Hz to 8 kHz). But all readings were consistent over at least a dozen tests. I was also listening at a -12 dB reading on the Denon, which is a bit higher than I normally run it, especially on Interstellar. The peak dB reading I received that evening on the first scene of Interstellar was 103.2 dB with both subs running, and this is louder than I normally run any movie. BTW, I’m getting pretty tired of listening to and watching that scene .

So far, I’ve found the difference between the XS30 and the S3000i to be negligible on movies at best. The biggest, and most audibly apparent difference is with various music that I enjoy. Now, that doesn’t mean the S3000i wouldn’t best the XS30 audibly, if I chose to run movies at or above reference levels. I would fully expect the S3000i to be less susceptible to compression and distortion at reference levels and beyond. That alone, could be one reason (of many) that other members have had significantly different results. But since I have no desire go there, I will never know . Especially since the tactile feel is very intense from each sub below reference. And yes, I noticed some flickering of the CFL lighting in the room on a few occasions, since my first setup fiasco.

I want to thank all that have given me input. It’s much appreciated. I will, of course, continue testing different movies and testing different crossover points and gain trim levels. I will also try different phase settings to see if I am getting any cancellation effects. I did this with the originally setting, turning the phase knob from 0, to 9, to 12, to 3 and to max, to no real audible effect. I did change the crossover to 90 Hz and found some minor localization. This was mitigated to a certain degree when using both subs. I left the LPF setting at 100 Hz. But I think most here will realize that in my room, at the SPL levels I listen at, I won’t ever be seeing/hearing/feeling much difference between these two subs, other than on music. And I gotta say, the more tests I run, the more impressed I am with the original XS30’s movie capability.
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post #20890 of 37538 Old 07-12-2015, 12:16 PM
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Beautiful natural cherry subs.

I have a similar experience to Mr. Russell's. I never approach reference levels in my theater. -20 is my reference. As such, my meager 12nsd's are really more than enough to satisfy my bass cravings. Still, here I am stalking this thread and lusting after these magnificent PSA subwoofers.
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post #20891 of 37538 Old 07-12-2015, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Sweet Jimmy View Post
Beautiful natural cherry subs.

I have a similar experience to Mr. Russell's. I never approach reference levels in my theater. -20 is my reference. As such, my meager 12nsd's are really more than enough to satisfy my bass cravings. Still, here I am stalking this thread and lusting after these magnificent PSA subwoofers.
You have nothing to lose with 30 day free shipping both ways............
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post #20892 of 37538 Old 07-12-2015, 01:50 PM
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You have nothing to lose with 30 day free shipping both ways............
Ha. Unfortunately for me I would hate myself for costing them money for satisfying my curiosity. I would have to keep it if I bought it, even if I found it an unnecessary addition. Oh but that S3000i, it haunts my dreams. I keep wondering what < 10hz would feel like.
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post #20893 of 37538 Old 07-12-2015, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Sorry this took so long. We've been extra busy trying to coordinate the logistics on a couple of big shipments coming up in August.

Pictures don't do it justice really. This new Natural Cherry finish is gorgeous. Wait until the amp and drivers are installed...the contrast will look amazing...

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
I love that finish! I would have sprung for it but my wife insists on black. Maybe when I get new speakers.
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post #20894 of 37538 Old 07-12-2015, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post
Well, so far I haven’t really sat down and enjoyed the sub like I said I would (probably doesn’t come as a great surprise to many). Last night I upped the gain on both subs and reran Audyssey … yet again. Where I was getting a sub trim level of -2.5 (on each sub), I’m now at a trim level setting of -6 (on each sub). Big difference? Except for perhaps a 1 to 1.5 dB output gain from the original setting (the tolerance of my SPL meter C-weighting), the answer is no. There was a consistent 1/2 dB (inaudible) output gain of the S3000i over the XS30 at the -6 setting and the -3 and 0 modified trim levels I tried. The XS30 is placed 6 inches farther from my seating position (measured from the center of the subs to my listening position) than the S3000i and might account for some of that very minor variance. When running both subs together, I was again reading 1 to 1.5 dB output gain, which again, is the tolerance limit of my SPL meter (from 30 Hz to 8 kHz). But all readings were consistent over at least a dozen tests. I was also listening at a -12 dB reading on the Denon, which is a bit higher than I normally run it, especially on Interstellar. The peak dB reading I received that evening on the first scene of Interstellar was 103.2 dB with both subs running, and this is louder than I normally run any movie. BTW, I’m getting pretty tired of listening to and watching that scene .

So far, I’ve found the difference between the XS30 and the S3000i to be negligible on movies at best. The biggest, and most audibly apparent difference is with various music that I enjoy. Now, that doesn’t mean the S3000i wouldn’t best the XS30 audibly, if I chose to run movies at or above reference levels. I would fully expect the S3000i to be less susceptible to compression and distortion at reference levels and beyond. That alone, could be one reason (of many) that other members have had significantly different results. But since I have no desire go there, I will never know . Especially since the tactile feel is very intense from each sub below reference. And yes, I noticed some flickering of the CFL lighting in the room on a few occasions, since my first setup fiasco.

I want to thank all that have given me input. It’s much appreciated. I will, of course, continue testing different movies and testing different crossover points and gain trim levels. I will also try different phase settings to see if I am getting any cancellation effects. I did this with the originally setting, turning the phase knob from 0, to 9, to 12, to 3 and to max, to no real audible effect. I did change the crossover to 90 Hz and found some minor localization. This was mitigated to a certain degree when using both subs. I left the LPF setting at 100 Hz. But I think most here will realize that in my room, at the SPL levels I listen at, I won’t ever be seeing/hearing/feeling much difference between these two subs, other than on music. And I gotta say, the more tests I run, the more impressed I am with the original XS30’s movie capability.
This seems to make perfect sense, if i'm interpreting your testing right. If you aren't pressing the limits of the XS30, I would absolutely expect those two subs to sound nearly identical. Thanks for your listening impressions and review.
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My Basement Build Thread - House sold... no more theater :(
Living Room: Vizio M70-D3, Denon AVR-X3300W, PSA S3000i, HSU HB1mk2/HC1mk2
Game Room: Samsung PN60E8000 Plasma, Yamaha RX-V773, PSA S3000i, Kef Q+Paradigm
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post #20895 of 37538 Old 07-12-2015, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post
Congratulations! I guess you heard the phrase, "Go big or go home." .

Is the S3000i replacing a subwoofer you already have, or is this your very first subwoofer? Either case, the first place to start is the subwoofer crawl test to locate the best area to place your subwoofer. Yeah, I know the S3000i is very heavy, so you're going to need help (it's a 2-man lift). If you already own a subwoofer and did the subwoofer crawl test to position that sub, the S3000i could go there.
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
I agree with dsrussell and I would also suggest investing $35 - $50 in a Radio Shack SPL meter. That's better than depending on just your ears to locate the best spot when you do the crawl.

Let us know if you aren't familiar with what we are talking about. The guys here are very helpful, someone will jump in and help very quickly.

Oh Yeah…Congratulations on your new subwoofer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWCgrad View Post
No serious HT guy can be w/o a SPL meter...they are the least expensive measurement tool but serve an absolutely critical function. Of course, once you take the first step it is a slippery slope to more detailed measurements using REW or Omnimic.
Thanks, everyone! I am coming from a budget sub that I never messed with too much. I have just had it at the back of my room, and never really moved it around or tried to fuss with it. I did buy a SPL meter on amazon, so it should get here on Tuesday with the sub. I'll read up on the basics of using one and will have to get ready to crawl a bit.

Appreciate the help!
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post #20896 of 37538 Old 07-12-2015, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Sweet Jimmy View Post
Ha. Unfortunately for me I would hate myself for costing them money for satisfying my curiosity. I would have to keep it if I bought it, even if I found it an unnecessary addition. Oh but that S3000i, it haunts my dreams. I keep wondering what < 10hz would feel like.
That's how it starts.

Then next thing you know you have it sitting in your room and you have a smile of joy pasted on your face because you're happy!











For at least a week….Then a second X3000i starts to haunt your dreams.
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post #20897 of 37538 Old 07-12-2015, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by poster View Post
Just ordered a S3000i yesterday. I'm lacking in experience and knowledge, but after reading so many good sub stories, I decided to take the plunge. When deciding where to put it, is there a place I should start at (front, rear, near seating area) before trying to figure out the best spot? Are there keys/tips for a beginner when trying to figure out the best area for the sub?

Not the biggest movie buff, but I definitely want to look into getting sub that will provide enjoyment with the new sub. Is the bass thread the place to look or should I just comb through the thread to see other movie recommendations?

Also wanted to say thanks to Tom who answered all of my many back and forth questions before I decided on this sub. My audio system is getting much better thanks to PSA!

Also can't believe that picture Eric posted a couple of pages back, amazing!!! Enjoy that, my friend.
i am going post more.i ben working like crazy to pay for this addiction.monday will be my day to get it all set up
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post #20898 of 37538 Old 07-12-2015, 07:48 PM
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Sounds like you guys are having a lot of fun!!


I would suspect that the ripples you are seeing on the TV are caused by the power draw from the sub's amp...do the lights dim as well?
Alan, we sure have been! That is a very interesting thought - I will hook up one of my Kill-A-Watt meters and measure power draws over there during the test. Is there any additional input since, I would think, playing 15Hz wouldn't pull more juice than 20Hz? Maybe the 3600i can handle 20 better and give more oomph...hard to say without adding more science! Muhahaha

I'll bite - how can I participate in those blind tests with many manufacturers?!? It sounds like fun!

I didn't mean to initiate any sort of debate between ported and sealed. I just meant to say that after some scenes, we were left a little underwhelmed after hearing the S3000i first. Pushing the S3000i back into the same spot as the V3600i, adjusting calibration, would turn our frowns upside down. Maybe it's just a room issue he's battling? Is there more science to the sound experience than what a graph from REW can show? For instance, a few of my friends cannot tell the difference of 60Hz vs 85Hz on a CRT monitor, but to me, it's night and day. One of them can also not recognize the appearance of wheels looking like they are spinning backward during acceleration.

Travis
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post #20899 of 37538 Old 07-12-2015, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Sorry this took so long. We've been extra busy trying to coordinate the logistics on a couple of big shipments coming up in August.

Pictures don't do it justice really. This new Natural Cherry finish is gorgeous. Wait until the amp and drivers are installed...the contrast will look amazing...

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Cheers Tom,

as mentioned in the UK forum already: Those pictures make even a Monday morning more bearable!

Really looking forward to the contrast between the enclosure and amp/drivers myself, it was one of the reasons I decided on a "brighter" veneer.
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post #20900 of 37538 Old 07-13-2015, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Jimmy View Post
Beautiful natural cherry subs.

I have a similar experience to Mr. Russell's. I never approach reference levels in my theater. -20 is my reference. As such, my meager 12nsd's are really more than enough to satisfy my bass cravings. Still, here I am stalking this thread and lusting after these magnificent PSA subwoofers.
Well, keep the expectations based in reality and you won't be disappointed..

dual PB12nsd subs are probably not compressing much/at all with master volume levels of -20. This assumes the bass levels aren't overly *hot* AND you are not using any sort of dynamic eq. If this is accurate the primary benefits to an upgrade would be sound quality, extension, or perhaps more mid/upper bass "slam/punch".

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #20901 of 37538 Old 07-13-2015, 08:52 AM
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@ MV -20 there would be no need to upgrade from dual NSD's.
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post #20902 of 37538 Old 07-13-2015, 01:15 PM
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I just wanted to give a positive review of PSA. I demoed two subs in my home, and the process was seamless. The subs were returned and the refund was processed the same day. It really doesnt get any better than PSA customer service.
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post #20903 of 37538 Old 07-13-2015, 01:23 PM
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I just wanted to give a positive review of PSA. I demoed two subs in my home, and the process was seamless. The subs were returned and the refund was processed the same day. It really doesnt get any better than PSA customer service.
Which subs did you demo? Why did you you return them?
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post #20904 of 37538 Old 07-13-2015, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
I just wanted to give a positive review of PSA. I demoed two subs in my home, and the process was seamless. The subs were returned and the refund was processed the same day. It really doesnt get any better than PSA customer service.
Were you auditioning two different subs ( one PSA and another brand) or two PSAs. If two PSAs it looks like your were demoing the customer service and return policy. No impressions from the two subs?????

Jeffrey
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post #20905 of 37538 Old 07-13-2015, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tang7969 View Post
Which subs did you demo? Why did you you return them?
s3000i / I went with a two subs that have a larger single driver instead of dual opposed design (Deep Sea Sound 24").

Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Were you auditioning two different subs ( one PSA and another brand) or two PSAs. If two PSAs it looks like your were demoing the customer service and return policy. No impressions from the two subs?????

Jeffrey
Subs were great for music but I wasn't as impressed with their movie performance. They are great subs, they just didn't fulfill my expectation. Just because someone demos the units and ends up going a different direction doesn't mean the person didn't have intentions to purchase the said product. I am not sure if you were insinuating that I am a free loader, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and common courtesy that I misinterpreted your statement.

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post #20906 of 37538 Old 07-13-2015, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
s3000i / I went with a two subs that have a larger single driver instead of dual opposed design (Deep Sea Sound 24")



Subs were great for music but I wasn't as impressed with their movie performance. They are great subs, they just didn't fulfill my expectation. Just because someone demos the units and ends up going a different direction doesn't mean the person didn't have intentions to purchase the said product. I am not sure if you were insinuating that I am a free loader, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and common courtesy that I misinterpreted your statement.
I wasn't insinuating anything, I was quite unsure what you were referring to as "it was seamless
transaction", we all know how good the customer service is with Tom and Jim, just as you proclaimed. It would have been informative to know what you auditioned. I don't know what your expectations are with subs, that's all I was referring to. I made no insinuation that you're a freeloader....

Now that you made the decision to go with Deep Sea and decided they would be better suited to your needs, I'd like to know how you've come to the conclusion never auditioning the 24" subs they offer. I've never heard the Marianna's, but I would need to before spending almost $8000 (is shipping included?).

Do you mind me asking if they have a 30 day audition window and also if you've had the opportunity to hear them, I would be interested in your impressions. No malice intended but I just can't fathom auditioning two S3000i's at what $2850, and deciding to go with two $4000 subs with a total of 8000 combined watts because the 3000i's weren't that good for movies. Would you not say that's a fair question to ask?

Good luck to you with your purchase, I would really like to see pictures of them in your space and hear your impressions...................
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post #20907 of 37538 Old 07-13-2015, 05:06 PM
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Thanks for the clarification. I may actually be a freeloader, but that is typically only when free beer is involved. I have been known to overstay my welcome when there is still beer in the fridge/cooler/tap. They offer 45 day return, but return shipping is not covered since it is freight. I won't go into pricing, but AVS members get discounts over the web pricing. I made my decision based on numerous conversations with several members who have very similar setups to my current setup. I will post my feedback on them in the DSS thread.
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post #20908 of 37538 Old 07-13-2015, 05:27 PM
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Post a link when you do. I thought PSA was freight as well, the V3600i is 195 pounds net. I also believe a member here has auditioned the Marianna, if I'm not mistaken is was Russell (Drussell), maybe he can chime in with his thoughts..........
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post #20909 of 37538 Old 07-13-2015, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
I just wanted to give a positive review of PSA. I demoed two subs in my home, and the process was seamless. The subs were returned and the refund was processed the same day. It really doesnt get any better than PSA customer service.
Sorry the subs didn't work out, but it was cool of you to drop by and offer some kind words to PSA. Most people would not have done this at this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
I wasn't insinuating anything, I was quite unsure what you were referring to as "it was seamless
transaction", we all know how good the customer service is with Tom and Jim, just as you proclaimed. It would have been informative to know what you auditioned. I don't know what your expectations are with subs, that's all I was referring to. I made no insinuation that you're a freeloader....

Now that you made the decision to go with Deep Sea and decided they would be better suited to your needs, I'd like to know how you've come to the conclusion never auditioning the 24" subs they offer. I've never heard the Marianna's, but I would need to before spending almost $8000 (is shipping included?).

Do you mind me asking if they have a 30 day audition window and also if you've had the opportunity to hear them, I would be interested in your impressions. No malice intended but I just can't fathom auditioning two S3000i's at what $2850, and deciding to go with two $4000 subs with a total of 8000 combined watts because the 3000i's weren't that good for movies. Would you not say that's a fair question to ask?

Good luck to you with your purchase, I would really like to see pictures of them in your space and hear your impressions...................
Jeff,

Check out the numbers on data-bass for the SI HS-24, then see the performance David is getting with his dsp posted in the DSS thread, and you'll see very easily why this decision was made.

The s3000i is great subwoofer, and if it doesn't meet someone's expectations then it makes perfect sense to jump to the biggest and baddest of all sealed ID offerings IMO.
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post #20910 of 37538 Old 07-13-2015, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
Sorry the subs didn't work out, but it was cool of you to drop by and offer some kind words to PSA. Most people would not have done this at this point.



Jeff,

Check out the numbers on data-bass for the SI HS-24, then see the performance David is getting with his dsp posted in the DSS thread, and you'll see very easily why this decision was made.

The s3000i is great subwoofer, and if it doesn't meet someone's expectations then it makes perfect sense to jump to the biggest and baddest of all sealed ID offerings IMO.
I should have posted more information, but I didn't want it to detract from the s3000i sub. These subs are terrific, and I didn't want to taint their performance because I decided to go into the "stupid" area with regards to LFE. The s3000i is a great sub and would please even the most demanding enthusiasts.
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