Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 703 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #21061 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by tristian0507 View Post
True that it is all about the all around performance, but 200 more watts is a great sales pitch. Can I ask why not just rate the v1800 at 925 watts since it's the same module.
Why not 926 watts?

I think I've mentioned it already but I would feel very comfortable rating the V1800 at 1200 watts and the V3600i at 2400 watts. Anyone who has experienced the V3600i would probably tell you they believe *every bit* of 2400w based on system performance...

At the end of the day though...it would just turn into a BS marketing escalation between companies. I'd rather error on the side of under-promising and over-delivering. That has served me well since the late 1990s with svs.

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post #21062 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 01:53 PM
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Is it more difficult for a given amplifier to drive a higher ohm speaker? (Resistance and energy lost as heat?)

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post #21063 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 01:58 PM
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the room is big but it's a family room and kitchen...so the couch divides the room and is about mid center.... so the entire room isn't the 'theater'...not sure how much of a difference that makes, but yes the room is big. I'd venture to guess I'd probably be happy with a smaller sub (since my current set up sucks)...but this was the limit of my budget and while it may not be a crazy set up it should get me by until I can add on to it in the future.

Note the old Bose system I had which was marginally better than the TV speakers.
It actually makes a BIG difference.

With subwoofers, you must take into account the entire cubic footage of open area that the sub will "see". I agree with cesar, try placing the sub nearfield if at all possible in a room that large.
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post #21064 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 02:02 PM
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Is it more difficult for a given amplifier to drive a higher ohm speaker? (Resistance and energy lost as heat?)

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You can google "wattage vs ohm" calculator to see the relationship into a dummy load. But into a complete system things don't translate like that. Please don't make any assumptions about driver impedance based solely on some arbitrary amplifier rating. its not like any of this is based on rocket-science or the minutia of lab grade impedance measurements. It is just 2-3 companies having slightly different ways of rating a given amplifier module. I promise you, this is *very* common in the industry. There are MANY instances of multiple companies using the exact same amplifier modules and rating them in very different manners. And this is completely independent of the driver resistance.

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post #21065 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 02:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
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Originally Posted by thoma226 View Post
Is it more difficult for a given amplifier to drive a higher ohm speaker? (Resistance and energy lost as heat?)

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You can google "wattage vs ohm" calculator to see the relationship into a dummy load. But into a complete system things don't translate like that. Please don't make any assumptions about driver impedance based solely on some arbitrary amplifier rating. its not like any of this is based on rocket-science or the minutia of lab grade impedance measurements. It is just 2-3 companies having slightly different ways of rating a given amplifier module. I promise you, this is *very* common in the industry. There are MANY instances of multiple companies using the exact same amplifier modules and rating them in very different manners. And this is completely independent of the driver resistance.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
As a sales aspect and you already answered this, but since it's the same amp module and possibly you would be able to rate it up to 1400 watts, why not have that edge over another product? I only ask because they will both be priced at $1299 at preorder price. Then the v1800 will go up to $1499. I know RA has less years under there belt, but soon it's going to be $1499 vs $1299 and 725 watts vs 925 watts. I don't see how a regular consumer like my self can look past those numbers. Tom, your going to have great competition. Great for us!
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post #21066 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by tristian0507 View Post
As a sales aspect and you already answered this, but since it's the same amp module and possibly you would be able to rate it up to 1400 watts, why not have that edge over another product? I only ask because they will both be priced at $1299 at preorder price. Then the v1800 will go up to $1499. I know RA has less years under there belt, but soon it's going to be $1499 vs $1299 and 725 watts vs 925 watts. I don't see how a regular consumer like my self can look past those numbers. Tom, your going to have great competition. Great for us!
He did answer your question why he does not do it that way, just out of curiosity what's the other thread saying....?
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post #21067 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by tristian0507 View Post
As a sales aspect and you already answered this, but since it's the same amp module and possibly you would be able to rate it up to 1400 watts, why not have that edge over another product? I only ask because they will both be priced at $1299 at preorder price. Then the v1800 will go up to $1499. I know RA has less years under there belt, but soon it's going to be $1499 vs $1299 and 725 watts vs 925 watts. I don't see how a regular consumer like my self can look past those numbers. Tom, your going to have great competition. Great for us!

I already answered it... This isn't checkers, its chess. Meaning I would rather sacrifice a sale here or there because I didn't participate in some sort of marketing "spec war". For every potential sale we may lose to this....we gain 100x back in the long run because the vast majority of customers appreciate the "under promise---over deliver" mentality.

The very *least* of our worries at the moment is not enough sales. Our potential customers seem to be more concerned with lead times, fit and finish, sound quality, product performance, customer service, etc, etc, etc. We look to be shipping out several container loads later this summer too. So our business model is resonating with consumers across the globe.

Of course different companies have different priorities. But I know what has worked for me(svs and psa) since the 1990s. It is what I'm comfortable with and I see no good reason to change now. I'm sure you can understand that.

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post #21068 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 02:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by tristian0507 View Post
As a sales aspect and you already answered this, but since it's the same amp module and possibly you would be able to rate it up to 1400 watts, why not have that edge over another product? I only ask because they will both be priced at $1299 at preorder price. Then the v1800 will go up to $1499. I know RA has less years under there belt, but soon it's going to be $1499 vs $1299 and 725 watts vs 925 watts. I don't see how a regular consumer like my self can look past those numbers. Tom, your going to have great competition. Great for us!
He did answer your question why he does not do it that way, just out of curiosity what's the other thread saying....?
Did I say something wrong ? Im waiting to get clarification there. All I said it is going be challenging for sales knowing there is another product with better numbers (just numbers as in price and watts). And I was curious on why not just rate it more if it can be done and be justified. Better for sales I think at least for the regular consumer thinking of buying one of these subs. I also understand when Tom said, it's the all around experience. Product, finish, customer service, warrantee. But I think specs and price can make a difference especially for the regular guy thinking of buying a sub in this price range.
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post #21069 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 02:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
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Originally Posted by tristian0507 View Post
As a sales aspect and you already answered this, but since it's the same amp module and possibly you would be able to rate it up to 1400 watts, why not have that edge over another product? I only ask because they will both be priced at $1299 at preorder price. Then the v1800 will go up to $1499. I know RA has less years under there belt, but soon it's going to be $1499 vs $1299 and 725 watts vs 925 watts. I don't see how a regular consumer like my self can look past those numbers. Tom, your going to have great competition. Great for us!

I already answered it... This isn't checkers, its chess. Meaning I would rather sacrifice a sale here or there because I didn't participate in some sort of marketing "spec war". For every potential sale we may lose to this....we gain 100x back in the long run because the vast majority of customers appreciate the "under promise---over deliver" mentality.

The very *least* of our worries at the moment is not enough sales. Our potential customers seem to be more concerned with lead times, fit and finish, sound quality, product performance, customer service, etc, etc, etc. We look to be shipping out several container loads later this summer too. So our business model is resonating with consumers across the globe.

Of course different companies have different priorities. But I know what has worked for me(svs and psa) since the 1990s. It is what I'm comfortable with and I see no good reason to change now. I'm sure you can understand that.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
I do. You guys just make it harder to make a sub purchase, just saying...so many good products to choose from...
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post #21070 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 03:20 PM
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Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

There you go Tristian http://www.powersoundaudio.com/blogs...-for-the-v1800 $50 less then what Tom said originally.


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post #21071 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 03:23 PM
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Prime Day? They got nothing on PSA DAY!

Tom and Jim... wow.
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Yippee-ki-yay...
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post #21072 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 03:47 PM
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Too bad, RA does not offer free return for the echo18 or you could have them both in your room to compare. I don't look too much into the wattage when buying stuff. Power rating does not tell much with two different drivers in two different box sizes driven by the same amp. It's the overall output and sound quality along with the finish that one should seek.
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post #21073 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 03:47 PM
 
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There you go Tristian http://www.powersoundaudio.com/blogs...-for-the-v1800 $50 less then what Tom said originally.


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Tom, does this mean it will go up to $1449 Instead of $1499? $1249 vs $1299 for the other one, that I like.
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post #21074 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 03:55 PM
 
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Too bad, RA does not offer free return for the echo18 or you could have them both in your room to compare. I don't look too much into the wattage when buying stuff. Power rating does not tell much with two different drivers in two different box sizes driven by the same amp. It's the overall output and sound quality along with the finish that one should seeks.
Agreed, but the average Joe will. Especially when it's substantially a big difference. 200 watts more to the consumer is allot. Plus it will be priced less. That just seems like a sales advantage.
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post #21075 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 03:58 PM
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Agreed, but the average Joe will. Especially when it's substantially a big difference. 200 watts more to the consumer is allot. Plus it will be priced less. That just seems like a sales advantage.
The average Joe is not looking at ID subs. ID subs are a niche market.
The average Joe would not know the difference between AVS and Avis.

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post #21076 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 04:02 PM
 
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Agreed, but the average Joe will. Especially when it's substantially a big difference. 200 watts more to the consumer is allot. Plus it will be priced less. That just seems like a sales advantage.
The average Joe is not looking at ID subs. ID subs are a niche market.
The average Joe would not know the difference between AVS and Avis.
Sure they are. Once you want more and start digging you end up here. That's how i got here. The ID market has grown and keeps growing. I'm assuming average joes had something to do with it.
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post #21077 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 04:19 PM
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Agreed, but the average Joe will. Especially when it's substantially a big difference. 200 watts more to the consumer is allot. Plus it will be priced less. That just seems like a sales advantage.
Hi Tritian,

I have no idea what you do for a living, but let's say you make power adders for old muscle cars. You've been doing this for the last 15-20 years and have been quite successful at it. You have even founded or co-founded two entirely separately companies and watched them grow into multi-million dollar sales annually. You currently have more sales than you can hope to keep up with even though you don't advertise much/at all. In facts sales have increased nearly 250% in just the last year(!!!).

Now, your company is on some hot rod forum and has their own "support" thread. How do you think you would react if some anonymous person was trying to convince you you are doing things wrong and they can't understand why you wouldn't do things the way they suggest-----over and over and over...

Please, I appreciate your thoughts. But posting the same thing 100 different ways just clogs up this thread with needless noise.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #21078 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 04:42 PM
 
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Agreed, but the average Joe will. Especially when it's substantially a big difference. 200 watts more to the consumer is allot. Plus it will be priced less. That just seems like a sales advantage.
Hi Tritian,

I have no idea what you do for a living, but let's say you make power adders for old muscle cars. You've been doing this for the last 15-20 years and have been quite successful at it. You have even founded or co-founded two entirely separately companies and watched them grow into multi-million dollar sales annually. You currently have more sales than you can hope to keep up with even though you don't advertise much/at all. In facts sales have increased nearly 250% in just the last year(!!!).

Now, your company is on some hot rod forum and has their own "support" thread. How do you think you would react if some anonymous person was trying to convince you you are doing things wrong and they can't understand why you wouldn't do things the way they suggest-----over and over and over...

Please, I appreciate your thoughts. But posting the same thing 100 different ways just clogs up this thread with needless noise.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
I apologize if I did all that. Don't see how or where. I was just getting different answers to the amp question and weren't very clear or clear enough for me to understand. I'm sure other people would be confused when they hear it's the same amp, but specs say different. It was just my observation in terms of comparing one product to another especially with so many things in common. You would probably confuse me with all the technical data between the v1800 and echo 18, but I understand what $1499 vs $1299 and 725 watts vs 925 watts is. I would just like you to understand me as a consumer when trying to decide between these 2 models. No more talk about this subject cause your right no need to say the same thing over and over.
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post #21079 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 04:48 PM
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The average Joe is not looking at ID subs. ID subs are a niche market.
The average Joe would not know the difference between AVS and Avis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tristian0507 View Post
Sure they are. Once you want more and start digging you end up here. That's how i got here. The ID market has grown and keeps growing. I'm assuming average joes had something to do with it.
Very few if any "Average Joe" will buy a ported 18" sub from an ID company.

But you are right on one count... if they want more they come to places like this and get educated by asking questions like you have been doing.

At this point they are no longer an Average Joe because the Average Joe asks his questions at Best Buy (not AVS) and then he buys a HTIB because someone told him he should.

The Average Joe doesn't have a clue about amps (or their ratings) or drivers or cabin gain or pressurization etc etc….

But the people who dig deeper (the educated) quickly realize they need to look past marketing strategies (such as nebulous numbers) and focus instead on meaningful things such as sound quality, extension, fit and finish, customer service, warranty, etc…

In fact, you have been doing exactly that. You're trying to understand why there is more to it than just price and watts. That's a good thing.

And that's why Tom doesn't worry too much about the numbers, he knows his market and he knows it well.

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post #21080 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 04:51 PM
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I apologize if I did all that. Don't see how or where. I was just getting different answers to the amp question and weren't very clear or clear enough for me to understand. I'm sure other people would be confused when they hear it's the same amp, but specs say different. It was just my observation in terms of comparing one product to another especially with so many things in common. You would probably confuse me with all the technical data between the v1800 and echo 18, but I understand what $1499 vs $1299 and 725 watts vs 925 watts is. I would just like you to understand me as a consumer when trying to decide between these 2 models. No more talk about this subject cause your right no need to say the same thing over and over.
Reviews of consumers that had experience with those products will give you all you need for info !!
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post #21081 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 04:53 PM
 
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Oh and by the way, it's Tristian! Your also right about how companies use different methods of marketing. Sad but it happens. Just like PSA uses its chart comparison in the website. Some of those numbers are mind boggling. It takes that many subs to equal this sub, really? But like you said, different companies use different marketing methods. I'm assuming your examples were related to PSA. 250% sales increase? That's awesome, I'm sure some that had to do with listening to the consumer. I work in financing since you were wondering. But thanks for answering my questions and telling me how you feel. A PM would of been more professional, but what do I know.
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post #21082 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 04:58 PM
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Agreed, but the average Joe will. Especially when it's substantially a big difference. 200 watts more to the consumer is allot. Plus it will be priced less. That just seems like a sales advantage.
Been following a bit, excuse me if this has already been posted. 200 watts is not a lot when you are talking about 700 already.

Let's say Tom does up his amp to 900w spec against his better judgement. Even under perfect conditions a doubling of power (1400 v 700 w) only constitutes a 3db increase in output. That extra 700w represents a 100% increase, and the 200w represents about 30%, so to anyone even the slightest bit knowledgeable we are talking about 1db here of potential marketing gain. That is nowhere near enough for Tom or any respectable businessman to go against what they feel is right.

To echo the comments made by many, the amp power means very little when talking about complete systems. It's all about how everything plays together (amp, driver, cab) to get the most output and highest SQ. This is why websites like data-bass.com are so valuable, they do extensive testing that tells us everything the system is capable of.

So in summary, maybe Tom could claim a little extra power to get some average Joe buys, but he will risk losing credit with the knowledgable customer base. Not worth it at all if it isn't a calculation method he can stand behind, and it's admirable that he is standing up for this.
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post #21083 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 05:07 PM
 
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Agreed, but the average Joe will. Especially when it's substantially a big difference. 200 watts more to the consumer is allot. Plus it will be priced less. That just seems like a sales advantage.
Been following a bit, excuse me if this has already been posted. 200 watts is not a lot when you are talking about 700 already.

Let's say Tom does up his amp to 900w spec against his better judgement. Even under perfect conditions a doubling of power (1400 v 700 w) only constitutes a 3db increase in output. That extra 700w represents a 100% increase, and the 200w represents about 30%, so to anyone even the slightest bit knowledgeable we are talking about 1db here of potential marketing gain. That is nowhere near enough for Tom or any respectable businessman to go against what they feel is right.

To echo the comments made by many, the amp power means very little when talking about complete systems. It's all about how everything plays together (amp, driver, cab) to get the most output and highest SQ. This is why websites like data-bass.com are so valuable, they do extensive testing that tells us everything the system is capable of.

So in summary, maybe Tom could claim a little extra power to get some average Joe buys, but he will risk losing credit with the knowledgable customer base. Not worth it at all if it isn't a calculation method he can stand behind, and it's admirable that he is standing up for this.
Why would he lose any credit if he can justify the means. If he can possibly claim 1400 watts and justify it, why not? Why only claim 725 watts? That's abig gap. I agree that we get carried away with watts, at least the average Joe. A great example is what HSU has done with there subs. They can't compete with the specs other subs have, but all you hear is great stuff about them.
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post #21084 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 05:11 PM
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Oh and by the way, it's Tristian! Your also right about how companies use different methods of marketing. Sad but it happens. Just like PSA uses its chart comparison in the website. Some of those numbers are mind boggling. It takes that many subs to equal this sub, really? But like you said, different companies use different marketing methods. I'm assuming your examples were related to PSA. 250% sales increase? That's awesome, I'm sure some that had to do with listening to the consumer. I work in financing since you were wondering. But thanks for answering my questions and telling me how you feel. A PM would of been more professional, but what do I know.
What would have been professional (or at least polite) would have been if you simply said "Thank You" to Tom for explaining things and left it at that. But what do I know?
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Last edited by Hopinater; 07-15-2015 at 07:21 PM.
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post #21085 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by tristian0507 View Post
Why would he lose any credit if he can justify the means. If he can possibly claim 1400 watts and justify it, why not? Why only claim 725 watts? That's abig gap. I agree that we get carried away with watts, at least the average Joe. A great example is what HSU has done with there subs. They can't compete with the specs other subs have, but all you hear is great stuff about them.
Because if he does there are a lot of people like me that will come and drop a huge "WTF" everywhere that references something like that lol. I know he doesn't care about me personally, because as he sad it's his comfort level, but it's definitely not worth it for something he isn't comfortable with. The output of these subs is 100db+ and this amp spec difference of 200w will add less than 1db potential marketing gain for him, but he risks bad perception in public eyes.
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post #21086 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
What would have been professional (or at least polite) would have been if you simply said "Thank You" to him for explaining things and left it at that. But what do I know?
Oh come on Hop, I know he asked the same question a lot and that can be frustrating, but Tom could have definitely been more tactful instead of calling his posts "noise" out in public like that.

Anyone in customer service will tell you it's the responsibility of the rep to be professional, not the customer.
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post #21087 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by tristian0507 View Post
A PM would of been more professional, but what do I know.

So you can continually challenge Tom's marketing/sales tactics (who's track record speaks for itself by the way as already mentioned between SVS and PSA) over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over (you sound like a broken record) in an OPEN PUBLIC FORUM but once Tom responds to your garbage and defends his strategy in that same open public forum he is now being unprofessional? Your logic is ridiculous.

The above comment I quoted just reinforces what I have said from your first posts in this thread which is your main motivation for being here is to troll and cause issues. How a mod has not permanently banned you from this thread at this point is baffling. All your questions have been answered, so what is your purpose for continually making the same posts over and over and over, etc, etc.......?

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post #21088 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
Oh come on Hop, I know he asked the same question a lot and that can be frustrating, but Tom could have definitely been more tactful instead of calling his posts "noise" out in public like that.

Anyone in customer service will tell you it's the responsibility of the rep to be professional, not the customer.
"Noise" is putting it nicely. What he has done in this thread overall is just pure garbage. He no more cares about buying a PSA sub than the man in the moon. You honestly don't see through all his BS? If ever there was a classic troll type case, this is it.
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post #21089 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
Oh come on Hop, I know he asked the same question a lot and that can be frustrating, but Tom could have definitely been more tactful instead of calling his posts "noise" out in public like that.

Anyone in customer service will tell you it's the responsibility of the rep to be professional, not the customer.
I disagree, I think we should all be professional and polite. But as I said what do I know?
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post #21090 of 27631 Old 07-15-2015, 05:44 PM
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Has Shady returned under a different name?
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