Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 712 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #21331 of 22064 Old 07-21-2015, 06:24 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dsrussell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Corona, CA.
Posts: 3,754
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1261 Post(s)
Liked: 1386
Quote:
Originally Posted by gbreda View Post
I have to ask-was the final decision made during "night or day" time ?

As cesar123 pointed out, it always a great read when you post and I generally learn something new from it, even if it is in some of the phrasing that I may use. The more I sit back an take in the informative posts here, the more I understand that. I guess you can teach an almost old dog a trick here and there.

The fact that your XS30 gives you what you need makes me wonder if 2 XS30's would have sufficed here. I am pretty sure that had I dialed everything in with REW and maybe a minidsp, that I could have made it happen. But I am really happy with the set up I have and dont have any regrets.
Actually, it was grey outside when I made my decision . The shocking truth is, it was actually raining in SoCal (the Angels were rained out for the first time in 20 years).

Just remember, room size and shape plays an important role. Of course output requirements does as well. While I “might” not have been using the XS30 to its full capability, I “know” I wasn’t using the S3000i anywhere near its capability. It felt like I was trying to tame a tiger. The S3000i simply has more legs. In your room, you heard/felt a major difference. In my room, there was only a marginal difference. Now, if I decided to get closer to that 115 dB mark in my size room, I’m sure the S3000i would indeed have made a much greater impression, while the XS30 might have been really straining and possibly distorting.

gtsum: The XS30se is a much closer match to the S3000i than the XS30. The “SE” uses different drivers than the original, and an updated DSP. I would be surprised if you heard much more than a small difference between the S3000i and XS30se, even in your large room. Now, adding a second could help, but even that isn’t guaranteed. The biggest output gain I saw with two subs playing vs one was anywhere from -.5 to +1.5 dB (and that was trying out every phase switch position). Others seem to see a good 3 dB output increase.
mnc, gtsum, Mike Butny and 3 others like this.

Music area: Magnepan 3.6, McIntosh MC2205 & C48, SVS SB13-Ultra, Oppo BDP 95 and assorted equipment.
Movie area: EMP Tek R5Bi, PSA XS30, Denon X2000, Oppo BDP 83.
dsrussell is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #21332 of 22064 Old 07-21-2015, 06:42 PM
Senior Member
 
gbreda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 446
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 234 Post(s)
Liked: 290
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post
Actually, it was grey outside when I made my decision . The shocking truth is, it was actually raining in SoCal (the Angels were rained out for the first time in 20 years).

Just remember, room size and shape plays an important role. Of course output requirements does as well. While I “might” not have been using the XS30 to its full capability, I “know” I wasn’t using the S3000i anywhere near its capability. It felt like I was trying to tame a tiger. The S3000i simply has more legs. In your room, you heard/felt a major difference. In my room, there was only a marginal difference. Now, if I decided to get closer to that 115 dB mark in my size room, I’m sure the S3000i would indeed have made a much greater impression, while the XS30 might have been really straining and possibly distorting.

gtsum: The XS30se is a much closer match to the S3000i than the XS30. The “SE” uses different drivers than the original, and an updated DSP. I would be surprised if you heard much more than a small difference between the S3000i and XS30se, even in your large room. Now, adding a second could help, but even that isn’t guaranteed. The biggest output gain I saw with two subs playing vs one was anywhere from -.5 to +1.5 dB (and that was trying out every phase switch position). Others seem to see a good 3 dB output increase.
Very true on the differences I have here, they are significant. Best part for you is that you are happy without spending any more money being thrown at it. Also, thanks to the rain (fitting weather to say good bye to the tiger), the Red Sox did not lose that day-now the Sox situation is a case of throwing alot of money and getting nothing in return ! I guess that they should not have let Theo Epstein go, but then what what do team owners know?

Enjoy the original beast of the XS30
gbreda is offline  
post #21333 of 22064 Old 07-21-2015, 06:52 PM
Answer Seeking / Sharing
 
cavchameleon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 1,883
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 169
Thought I'd chime in here for the first time. I've been following this thread for a very long time but have not posted since I don't have any PSA products - which is about to change.

A thumbs up to Tom, he answers emails quite quickly. I was still on the boarder on pulling the purchase, but finally did because of my interaction with Tom - great customer service!!! I'll chime in here when my subs arrive and are hooked up, but most likely won't be until after the 5th of August due to a family trip.

BTW, ordered two S3000i's. Can't wait to hook up these babies to my system. My current subs reach down pretty solid at 20 Hz, but then drops off fairly quickly (dual opposing 12" sealed design). I want some of the lower octaves for movies like you all are experiencing.
mnc, oneeyeblind, Billy p and 7 others like this.

Ray

 

"Listen with an open heart and mind."

 

cavchameleon is offline  
post #21334 of 22064 Old 07-21-2015, 06:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
tvuong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,977
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 971 Post(s)
Liked: 483
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsrussell View Post
The biggest output gain I saw with two subs playing vs one was anywhere from -.5 to +1.5 dB (and that was trying out every phase switch position). Others seem to see a good 3 dB output increase.
Something must went wrong as you should gain 6db going from one xs30 to one xs30 and s3000.
tvuong is online now  
post #21335 of 22064 Old 07-21-2015, 11:15 PM
AVS Special Member
 
audiofan1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,147
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 740 Post(s)
Liked: 946
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Something must went wrong as you should gain 6db going from one xs30 to one xs30 and s3000.

Only if there colocated will you see around 6db, otherwise 3-4db.
Toe and oneeyeblind like this.
audiofan1 is offline  
post #21336 of 22064 Old 07-21-2015, 11:17 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Daytona Beach Fl.
Posts: 187
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 123 Post(s)
Liked: 170
I put in ten hours at work today and come home to find my xs30se waiting on me. The wife said the Fed Ex guy carried it to the door with out a dolly, I think I just threw my back out moving it across the living room. Oh well, since my back is hurting I guess I will have to take a sick day tomorrow and watch some movies
jd10ac is online now  
post #21337 of 22064 Old 07-22-2015, 12:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
dsrussell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Corona, CA.
Posts: 3,754
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1261 Post(s)
Liked: 1386
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Something must went wrong ...
That might be an understatement . And I certainly agree. I had some cancellation effects that I simply couldn't mitigate via the phase control to give me the results normally seen. And since each sub gave excellent output and coverage at the listening position when run alone, it made my two choices rather simple. Keep the S3000i and sell the XS30, or return the S3000i and keep my XS30.

Music area: Magnepan 3.6, McIntosh MC2205 & C48, SVS SB13-Ultra, Oppo BDP 95 and assorted equipment.
Movie area: EMP Tek R5Bi, PSA XS30, Denon X2000, Oppo BDP 83.
dsrussell is online now  
post #21338 of 22064 Old 07-22-2015, 03:37 AM
Senior Member
 
saldog78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Philly 'Burbs
Posts: 211
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Liked: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post
Only if there colocated will you see around 6db, otherwise 3-4db.
Doesn't matter where they are located in the room, you theoretically should see an average 6db increase when you add a second identical sub. I know I get exactly 6db as measured by REW (and the Audessey pink noise) with my duals, and they are 15' apart.
Alan P, basshead81 and bear123 like this.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My Basement Build Thread
Paradigm Studio 60v3, Studio 570v3, Studio 20v5, 2x PSA S3000i, Onkyo TX-NR808, PS3, Chromecast+Plex, Acer H6510BD, Elite 125" 2.35 Screen, GIK
LR: Samsung PN60E8000 Plasma, Polk, Monoprice 4104, Yamaha RX-V773, PS3, Chromecast, Dayton Sub1200

Buy my Klipsch Sub12 Subwoofers!
saldog78 is offline  
post #21339 of 22064 Old 07-22-2015, 04:21 AM
Senior Member
 
lizrussspike's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Quad Cities
Posts: 304
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 85
V3600....coming soon.....
oneeyeblind and Hopinater like this.

Marantz SR7008, Emotiva XPA5,PSA V3600I,Dual PSA XV15SE's
PS3 Phat, PS3 Slim, Sony BDP-370,Toshiba HD-A2
Polk Monitor 70's,Polk CSiA6,Polk R50's,Polk F/XiA4's,Polk OWM3's,
Sharp 60 LED 640U,Optoma HD25-LV,Belkin PureAV Home Theater Console
lizrussspike is offline  
post #21340 of 22064 Old 07-22-2015, 04:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bear123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: PA
Posts: 3,861
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1057 Post(s)
Liked: 1600
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post
Only if there colocated will you see around 6db, otherwise 3-4db.
If they are not placed well and not integrated properly, this is true. So your statement is innaccurate, since there is really no reason to get dual subs if one is not willing to place and integrate them properly.
basshead81 and Hopinater like this.
bear123 is offline  
post #21341 of 22064 Old 07-22-2015, 05:06 AM
Toe
AVS Addicted Member
 
Toe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 14,153
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 838 Post(s)
Liked: 1087
Quote:
Originally Posted by saldog78 View Post
Doesn't matter where they are located in the room, you theoretically should see an average 6db increase when you add a second identical sub. I know I get exactly 6db as measured by REW (and the Audessey pink noise) with my duals, and they are 15' apart.
Everything I have always read about duals claims 6db co-located and 3-4db if they are split up which coincides with my setup/findings. I get 6db with my co-located ultras, but when I had them split up I was getting ~4db. And yes, this was after getting everything optimized in either case.

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP

Last edited by Toe; 07-22-2015 at 05:11 AM.
Toe is online now  
post #21342 of 22064 Old 07-22-2015, 05:22 AM
Senior Member
 
saldog78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Philly 'Burbs
Posts: 211
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Liked: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post
Everything I have always read about duals claims 6db co-located and 3-4db if they are split up which coincides with my setup/findings. I get 6db with my co-located ultras, but when I had them split up I was getting ~4db. And yes, this was after getting everything optimized in either case.
Perhaps you didn't level match them first? If you set SubA to 75db (with SubB off), then you set SubB to 75db (with SubA off), you should get 81db total when you have both on. This is what happens for me no matter where my two subs are in my room (i used to have them co-located; now they are not).

If you double the power and the driver area, you get an AVERAGE 6db increase across the bandwidth. You may get more or less than 6db at different frequencies depending on placement (the benefit of duals), but with pink noise it should be 6db at the MLP if you level matched the subs.
Toe, audiofan1 and majek 60 like this.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My Basement Build Thread
Paradigm Studio 60v3, Studio 570v3, Studio 20v5, 2x PSA S3000i, Onkyo TX-NR808, PS3, Chromecast+Plex, Acer H6510BD, Elite 125" 2.35 Screen, GIK
LR: Samsung PN60E8000 Plasma, Polk, Monoprice 4104, Yamaha RX-V773, PS3, Chromecast, Dayton Sub1200

Buy my Klipsch Sub12 Subwoofers!
saldog78 is offline  
post #21343 of 22064 Old 07-22-2015, 07:44 AM
Member
 
k1n3t1k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 75
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post
BTW, ordered two S3000i's. Can't wait to hook up these babies to my system. My current subs reach down pretty solid at 20 Hz, but then drops off fairly quickly (dual opposing 12" sealed design). I want some of the lower octaves for movies like you all are experiencing.
Click image for larger version

Name:	HolyGrailChoseWisely.JPG
Views:	45
Size:	32.6 KB
ID:	843130

You will _NOT_ be disappointed!
Mike Butny and ahblaza like this.
k1n3t1k is offline  
post #21344 of 22064 Old 07-22-2015, 07:58 AM
AVS Special Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 7,815
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked: 2684
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post
Everything I have always read about duals claims 6db co-located and 3-4db if they are split up which coincides with my setup/findings. I get 6db with my co-located ultras, but when I had them split up I was getting ~4db. And yes, this was after getting everything optimized in either case.
Co-locating is not a correct term. The correct term is mutually coupled.

Any time you double displacement while maintaining the same voltage swing you increase output +6db. Depending on placement and the room response you may or may not see the full 6db at all frequencies.


For example, My second sub excites the same room modes as the first, so output increases a full 6db at all frequencies. My 3rd sub knocks a 30hz peak down -6db but my 20hz output picks up almost +9db. So in some areas I lost substantial output but gained a bunch in others.
Toe, ahblaza and audiofan1 like this.

Getting Started with REW: A Step by Step Guide --> http://www.mediafire.com/view/aolmz2..._101_v3.92.pdf

Mini DSP Tutorial by Neutro --> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...g-minidsp.html
basshead81 is offline  
post #21345 of 22064 Old 07-22-2015, 08:05 AM
Toe
AVS Addicted Member
 
Toe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 14,153
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 838 Post(s)
Liked: 1087
Quote:
Originally Posted by saldog78 View Post
Perhaps you didn't level match them first? If you set SubA to 75db (with SubB off), then you set SubB to 75db (with SubA off), you should get 81db total when you have both on. This is what happens for me no matter where my two subs are in my room (i used to have them co-located; now they are not).

If you double the power and the driver area, you get an AVERAGE 6db increase across the bandwidth. You may get more or less than 6db at different frequencies depending on placement (the benefit of duals), but with pink noise it should be 6db at the MLP if you level matched the subs.
Thanks for the great explanation Saldog (and basshead) and that makes sense. Could very well be I wasn't level matched when I had that particular configuration/setup which was ~9 years ago and I have since made changes.

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
Toe is online now  
post #21346 of 22064 Old 07-22-2015, 08:42 AM
AVS Special Member
 
tvuong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,977
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 971 Post(s)
Liked: 483
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post
Only if there colocated will you see around 6db, otherwise 3-4db.
Double the power and drivers provide 6db gain. In his case, he has more than double the power from one XS30 to XS30+S3000.
oneeyeblind and audiofan1 like this.
tvuong is online now  
post #21347 of 22064 Old 07-22-2015, 08:50 AM
Senior Member
 
KyPeN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: DeWitt, MI
Posts: 359
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 32
My S3000i arrived last night, replacing an 10 year old, 12" 400watt Velodyne CHT-12 that was $500 in about 2005.

Initial impressions are...ouch, my back. Not really, but seriously, this thing is heavy. Be very careful. I was able to move it around myself, but I'm also a very strong guy. Get someone to help you. I also underestimated the sheer size of it. It makes my Velodyne look like a toy. Feel too. The finish is absolutely stellar, thick, and is indicative of someone investing into the integrity of the product from the ground up.

I put it exactly where my old Velo was, just to start. I don't yet have EQ and only had about an hour or so last night to play. It was either corner or between the left main and the TV, for now. I opted for the latter, since the corner seems to be giving me some ringing on the Velo and I'm not particularly worried about hitting decent SPL with this monster. I pointed one driver at the listening position and one approx 4" from the wall. A little speaker adjustment so the sub didn't block them and I was in business. I ran my test tones out of my receiver (Pioneer SC-25) and leveled everything to 80dB and made the sub 9dB hot. EZPZ. But, how'd it sound and feel?

I loaded up some music to begin with and was just amazed at how much I'd been missing. I love "heavy" pop music. Rap, metal, aggressive stuff. You name it. Of course, that sounded much deeper and more rich. Of course. But I was amazed at even more "relaxed" music. I was more IN the room when listening to jazz. My room became the music studio or the concert venue. I was really missing parts of my music.

I threw on some test tones just for some laughs. I found a 10-200hz sweep. Hilarious. I took the grill off and watched the sub throw air at me effortlessly. The house shook and I grinned ear to ear. I found some test tones at 20hz and going up in 10hz increments up to 120hz. Leveled at 90dB for 20hz, I had a much flatter initial response than expected. 30hz had a 6dB bump and a bit of a null around 90hz (crossover set, in receiver, to 80hz for now). Other than that, just about perfect. Who knows what's between those, but I'll need true EQ and a stronger test matrix before I proceed with fixing those anyway. My room treatments are 5 Acoustimac panels on the walls (soon to be upped to maybe 8-10?) and 2 bass traps in just one corner (hopefully upping to all corners and some on the ceiling joints).

What about movies? I was impressed with my music, but I wasn't absolutely blown away. Most music won't have that ultra low bass, and nor should it. This investment for me was probably 70% for movies. So, I played through a few test scenes before bed. My first was Jurassic Park, when the Brachiosaurus is first revealed and does her majestic lean back for the leaf and land. I was ROCKED into my seat. The whole house shook with authority, the room was full, and it was like seeing the movie again like when I was a kid. Just amazing. I had the same experience with Thor: The Dark World, then I had to crash for the night.

I can't wait to throw on Lord of the Rings. I think that's the task for this weekend. I'm so excited. Thanks, Tom, for all the guidance! Super happy with my choice.
mnc, oneeyeblind, sk373 and 4 others like this.
KyPeN is offline  
post #21348 of 22064 Old 07-22-2015, 09:23 AM
Senior Member
 
saldog78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Philly 'Burbs
Posts: 211
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Liked: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyPeN View Post
My S3000i arrived last night, replacing an 10 year old, 12" 400watt Velodyne CHT-12 that was $500 in about 2005.

Initial impressions are...ouch, my back. Not really, but seriously, this thing is heavy. Be very careful. I was able to move it around myself, but I'm also a very strong guy. Get someone to help you. I also underestimated the sheer size of it. It makes my Velodyne look like a toy. Feel too. The finish is absolutely stellar, thick, and is indicative of someone investing into the integrity of the product from the ground up.

I put it exactly where my old Velo was, just to start. I don't yet have EQ and only had about an hour or so last night to play. It was either corner or between the left main and the TV, for now. I opted for the latter, since the corner seems to be giving me some ringing on the Velo and I'm not particularly worried about hitting decent SPL with this monster. I pointed one driver at the listening position and one approx 4" from the wall. A little speaker adjustment so the sub didn't block them and I was in business. I ran my test tones out of my receiver (Pioneer SC-25) and leveled everything to 80dB and made the sub 9dB hot. EZPZ. But, how'd it sound and feel?

I loaded up some music to begin with and was just amazed at how much I'd been missing. I love "heavy" pop music. Rap, metal, aggressive stuff. You name it. Of course, that sounded much deeper and more rich. Of course. But I was amazed at even more "relaxed" music. I was more IN the room when listening to jazz. My room became the music studio or the concert venue. I was really missing parts of my music.

I threw on some test tones just for some laughs. I found a 10-200hz sweep. Hilarious. I took the grill off and watched the sub throw air at me effortlessly. The house shook and I grinned ear to ear. I found some test tones at 20hz and going up in 10hz increments up to 120hz. Leveled at 90dB for 20hz, I had a much flatter initial response than expected. 30hz had a 6dB bump and a bit of a null around 90hz (crossover set, in receiver, to 80hz for now). Other than that, just about perfect. Who knows what's between those, but I'll need true EQ and a stronger test matrix before I proceed with fixing those anyway. My room treatments are 5 Acoustimac panels on the walls (soon to be upped to maybe 8-10?) and 2 bass traps in just one corner (hopefully upping to all corners and some on the ceiling joints).

What about movies? I was impressed with my music, but I wasn't absolutely blown away. Most music won't have that ultra low bass, and nor should it. This investment for me was probably 70% for movies. So, I played through a few test scenes before bed. My first was Jurassic Park, when the Brachiosaurus is first revealed and does her majestic lean back for the leaf and land. I was ROCKED into my seat. The whole house shook with authority, the room was full, and it was like seeing the movie again like when I was a kid. Just amazing. I had the same experience with Thor: The Dark World, then I had to crash for the night.

I can't wait to throw on Lord of the Rings. I think that's the task for this weekend. I'm so excited. Thanks, Tom, for all the guidance! Super happy with my choice.
Congrats, and thanks for sharing. How big is your room, and is it open or fairly sealed off?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My Basement Build Thread
Paradigm Studio 60v3, Studio 570v3, Studio 20v5, 2x PSA S3000i, Onkyo TX-NR808, PS3, Chromecast+Plex, Acer H6510BD, Elite 125" 2.35 Screen, GIK
LR: Samsung PN60E8000 Plasma, Polk, Monoprice 4104, Yamaha RX-V773, PS3, Chromecast, Dayton Sub1200

Buy my Klipsch Sub12 Subwoofers!
saldog78 is offline  
post #21349 of 22064 Old 07-22-2015, 10:00 AM
Senior Member
 
KyPeN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: DeWitt, MI
Posts: 359
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by saldog78 View Post
Congrats, and thanks for sharing. How big is your room, and is it open or fairly sealed off?
I estimate approx. 3000ft^3. Only 6.5' ceilings and very long. Openings at each end. One opens to a small landing with doors to 3 bedrooms (all closed during watch time) and the other opens to the upstairs. Theater, for now, is just at one end. It will eventually become a projection system and leveraging the long room to do that. That's next year, I hope.
oneeyeblind likes this.
KyPeN is offline  
post #21350 of 22064 Old 07-22-2015, 10:40 AM
Advanced Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA.
Posts: 593
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 360 Post(s)
Liked: 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyPeN View Post
So, I played through a few test scenes before bed. My first was Jurassic Park, when the Brachiosaurus is first revealed and does her majestic lean back for the leaf and land. I was ROCKED into my seat. The whole house shook with authority, the room was full, and it was like seeing the movie again like when I was a kid. Just amazing. I had the same experience with Thor: The Dark World, then I had to crash for the night.

I can't wait to throw on Lord of the Rings. I think that's the task for this weekend. I'm so excited. Thanks, Tom, for all the guidance! Super happy with my choice.
Forget about those movies.

For the most impactful movie scenes, try The Incredible Hulk, Flight of Phoenix, War of the Worlds and Olympic Has Fallen. The first 40 seconds of Edge of Tomorrow is really nice but I feel it almost does not belong in the movie.

Interstellar also has some loud and long 30 Hz scenes that will shake your room but not much below 30 Hz.
Alan P likes this.
chucky7 is online now  
post #21351 of 22064 Old 07-22-2015, 11:05 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Brian Fineberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 6,156
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2163 Post(s)
Liked: 1863
Actually without the first 40 seconds of edge of tomorrow it's still a 5 star bass movie. It has tons of bass
Mike Butny and oneeyeblind like this.
Brian Fineberg is online now  
post #21352 of 22064 Old 07-22-2015, 11:08 AM
AVS Special Member
 
dsrussell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Corona, CA.
Posts: 3,754
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1261 Post(s)
Liked: 1386
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
If they are not placed well and not integrated properly, this is true. So your statement is innaccurate, since there is really no reason to get dual subs if one is not willing to place and integrate them properly.
My thoughts exactly . But long before I decided to try and integrate the two subs I did plenty of testing at the peak sound pressure levels I enjoy from each subwoofer at its location. I set both sub trim levels at -6, went through Audyssey calibration and tested. I then swapped sub locations, reran Audyssey (making sure the trim levels were at -6) and retested. Very tedious, btw. The difference between the SPL of each sub never got over 0.5 dB, so I felt they were nicely level matched. Each sub gave me full coverage at my listening position and each sub was impressive. It was at this point that I knew I wouldn’t see a major difference at the SPL I was playing. I then boosted the bass via the AVR to -3 and changed the loudness setting from -15 to -12 on my AVR and retested. That’s when I noticed the bookcase making noise when the S3000i was playing, but again, the SPL reading at the listening position maintained that 0.5 dB difference from one sub to the other. The vibrations I was receiving from each sub was pretty intense and I had each sub playing louder than I normally like it, and it was obvious that the S3000i was exciting certain frequencies differently than the XS30.

It was at this time that I knew I wouldn’t get the benefits that the S3000i could easily provide. I simply don’t listen to anything that loud. And when I read about the sound pressure levels some are attaining (115 dB, 118 dB, 120 dB, etc.), I marvel at how loud some people listen. Just as people probably marvel at how low of an SPL that I feel is comfortable and exciting. But I was curious about how two subwoofers would perform and whether or not I could hear/feel a benefit at my listening position. Once I found the phase setting that gave me the most SPL at the listening position (another extremely tedious test), I retested. What I found was a minor difference. It was a slightly more encompassing feel. That wasn’t unexpected since I already new I had great coverage at the listening position. For those that can’t receive nice, even coverage with a single sub, a second sub would make a big difference. And oh, btw, it was with two subs playing and an SPL level hitting 103.2 dB (the maximum I wanted to try) that the bookshelf felt like it was coming apart.

There are several things I could have continued to test. One would be walking around and standing at different locations of the room with SPL meter in hand, but I didn’t think about it at the time. I certainly could have started moving the subs and retested, but what would be the point in my case? So yes, I agree with you, bear that I did not place the subs properly, nor did I did integrate them properly. I also agree that there is no point in me having dual subs.

Music area: Magnepan 3.6, McIntosh MC2205 & C48, SVS SB13-Ultra, Oppo BDP 95 and assorted equipment.
Movie area: EMP Tek R5Bi, PSA XS30, Denon X2000, Oppo BDP 83.

Last edited by dsrussell; 07-23-2015 at 03:14 PM.
dsrussell is online now  
post #21353 of 22064 Old 07-22-2015, 12:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
audiofan1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,147
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 740 Post(s)
Liked: 946
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post
Everything I have always read about duals claims 6db co-located and 3-4db if they are split up which coincides with my setup/findings. I get 6db with my co-located ultras, but when I had them split up I was getting ~4db. And yes, this was after getting everything optimized in either case.
I was under the same impression and in both cases split or mutually coupled and of course level matched the results were 3-4 split and 6db when combined.

learn something new everyday though
Toe and ahblaza like this.
audiofan1 is offline  
post #21354 of 22064 Old 07-22-2015, 12:01 PM
Advanced Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA.
Posts: 593
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 360 Post(s)
Liked: 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
Actually without the first 40 seconds of edge of tomorrow it's still a 5 star bass movie. It has tons of bass
IMO, without the first 40 seconds, Edge of Tomorrow probably wouldn't be a 5 star bass movie.

Don't get me wrong. I enjoyed the movie. The bass content and quality for the rest of the movie are just not demo worthy to me. I did not have the "holy s-h-i-t" or "let's see that again" moments. I don't remember anything that compares to the demo scenes in The Incredible Hulk, Flight of Phoenix, War of the Worlds and Olympic Has Fallen.

Maybe it's because I only listen @ MV -12.5.
chucky7 is online now  
post #21355 of 22064 Old 07-22-2015, 12:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
audiofan1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,147
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 740 Post(s)
Liked: 946
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Co-locating is not a correct term. The correct term is mutually coupled.

Any time you double displacement while maintaining the same voltage swing you increase output +6db. Depending on placement and the room response you may or may not see the full 6db at all frequencies.


For example, My second sub excites the same room modes as the first, so output increases a full 6db at all frequencies. My 3rd sub knocks a 30hz peak down -6db but my 20hz output picks up almost +9db. So in some areas I lost substantial output but gained a bunch in others.
Great post

As when I referred to mutually coupled (colocated) I was speaking of the 6db at all frequencies! Interesting stuff indeed and will help when I get back around to adding more subs, especially since purchasing a Mic for measurements
ahblaza and basshead81 like this.
audiofan1 is offline  
post #21356 of 22064 Old 07-22-2015, 12:06 PM
Advanced Member
 
cesar123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 845
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 293 Post(s)
Liked: 382
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
...
Maybe it's because I only listen @ MV -12.5.
I can't be the only OCD person that is bugged by that. It's either -13 or -12. Preference to even numbers, of course.
Mike Butny and pias like this.

Yippee-ki-yay...
cesar123 is offline  
post #21357 of 22064 Old 07-22-2015, 12:06 PM
Senior Member
 
Molon_Labe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 296
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 205 Post(s)
Liked: 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Forget about those movies.

For the most impactful movie scenes, try The Incredible Hulk, Flight of Phoenix, War of the Worlds and Olympic Has Fallen. The first 40 seconds of Edge of Tomorrow is really nice but I feel it almost does not belong in the movie.

Interstellar also has some loud and long 30 Hz scenes that will shake your room but not much below 30 Hz.
Antman is going to have some killer LFE. I saw it Monday with the kids and it should be great when it is released. My daughter leaned over and whispered, "The sound system here is lame." I can't wait to see this at home.
Mike Butny likes this.

Last edited by Molon_Labe; 07-22-2015 at 12:12 PM.
Molon_Labe is offline  
post #21358 of 22064 Old 07-22-2015, 12:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Brian Fineberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 6,156
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2163 Post(s)
Liked: 1863
Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
IMO, without the first 40 seconds, Edge of Tomorrow probably wouldn't be a 5 star bass movie.

Don't get me wrong. I enjoyed the movie. The bass content and quality for the rest of the movie are just not demo worthy to me. I did not have the "holy s-h-i-t" or "let's see that again" moments. I don't remember anything that compares to the demo scenes in The Incredible Hulk, Flight of Phoenix, War of the Worlds and Olympic Has Fallen.

Maybe it's because I only listen @ MV -12.5.
I also only listen at -12 or -10

And data-bass out two measurements up for it. One with and one without he first 40 seconds. They both rated 5 stars. (Well just missed it for level but was still 5 stars for extension and dynamics)
EoT without the intro is no slouch:

Level - 4 Stars (112.31dB composite, 0.19dB away from 5-Star)
Extension - 5 Stars (5Hz)
Dynamics - 5 Stars (28.44dB)

If everyone would still vote 5 for execution, you are on par with Battle:LA and TIH. Pretty good company.

PvA:

EoT without Intro.jpg

JSS

Last edited by Brian Fineberg; 07-22-2015 at 12:13 PM.
Brian Fineberg is online now  
post #21359 of 22064 Old 07-22-2015, 12:16 PM
Advanced Member
 
chucky7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA.
Posts: 593
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 360 Post(s)
Liked: 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by cesar123 View Post
I can't be the only OCD person that is bugged by that. It's either -13 or -12. Preference to even numbers, of course.
My Pioneer does 0.5 increments so... I listen @ MV -12.5 before midnight, @ MV - 15 after midnight.
mnc and audiofan1 like this.
chucky7 is online now  
post #21360 of 22064 Old 07-22-2015, 01:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dsrussell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Corona, CA.
Posts: 3,754
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1261 Post(s)
Liked: 1386
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
Double the power and drivers provide 6db gain. In his case, he has more than double the power from one XS30 to XS30+S3000.
Except in my case, I’m not using more than double the power. Just because I have one sub with double the amplifier power, doesn’t mean that power is being used. I level matched the two subs at a trim level of -6 dB (the gain position of each sub was far different to attain that trim level). Each sub was putting out an SPL that was indistinguishable from the other (0.5 dB max difference), which I think everyone tries to achieve when level matching. This meant I was taming the S3000i far more than the XS30 (which is why integrating two identical subs is preferable). Now, if I didn’t level match the two subs I would have heard a large difference between the two sub’s output. But if I don’t enjoy output at 105 dB or higher, what is the point?

As far as not getting the 3 to 6 dB output gain using two subs, I wasn’t expecting it because of how I set them up, but I was expecting close to a 3 dB gain. I was not attaining that goal because of cancellation effects, which I couldn’t mitigate by phase control alone. I “should” have moved at least one sub until I reached those output levels, but decided not to bother. The simple reason is because I probably would not want the sub positioned in an awkward location, plus, I would have turned it down anyway .

I realize that I’m not the “typical” basshead. I knew that before I tried out the S3000i. But I wanted to see and hear for myself. It’s one thing to theorize about a more powerful sub or two subs, it’s another to realize by audition that I wouldn’t benefit as greatly as most here, simply because of my output preferences. I did understand this to a point before the audition. I did hear and audition many extremely capable subs, including the Paradigm Sub 1, JL Audio F212 Fathoms (two of them), four JL Audio G213 Gothams, the 24-inch DSS Mariana, and a few others. That is why I repeatedly stated that my results will be different from others.
ahblaza, gbreda and audiofan1 like this.

Music area: Magnepan 3.6, McIntosh MC2205 & C48, SVS SB13-Ultra, Oppo BDP 95 and assorted equipment.
Movie area: EMP Tek R5Bi, PSA XS30, Denon X2000, Oppo BDP 83.
dsrussell is online now  
Reply Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers

Tags
Xs30 , Velodyne Sms 1 In Room Bass Correction Kit With Included Microphone , Denon Avr 3313ci Receiver , Denon Avr 4520ci Receiver , Power Sound Audio , Xv15 , Power Sound Audio Triax , Room Equilizer Wizard Rew , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver
Gear in this thread

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off