Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 719 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #21541 of 21555 Old Yesterday, 07:07 PM
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Hopinator,

Thanks. I will do more tuning next week. This was my first time with REW and I will dig deeper as I find more time. One thing I really liked was how clean the SVS was with such low distortion. When I look at PSA and Rythmik subs on data-bass I see much more distortion in those measurements which concerns me a little. This is what made PSA and easier choice over Rythmik (final two choices) was that I have risk free trial and can listen and measure to see how they compare.

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post #21542 of 21555 Old Yesterday, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by DCMlover View Post
I just don't think I want to have a giant single sub taking up that much space. I guess I don't know how lod reference is, maybe I better wait until I finish construction to pull the trigger.
Don' think of it as a big single sub...I look at the V3600 as a Monster double, it really seems that way when the grill is off

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post #21543 of 21555 Old Today, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by kluken View Post
Hopinator,

Thanks. I will do more tuning next week. This was my first time with REW and I will dig deeper as I find more time. One thing I really liked was how clean the SVS was with such low distortion. When I look at PSA and Rythmik subs on data-bass I see much more distortion in those measurements which concerns me a little. This is what made PSA and easier choice over Rythmik (final two choices) was that I have risk free trial and can listen and measure to see how they compare.
Which measurement graph and which subs are you comparing?

I bet you would find a single V1500 performs very similar to your Ultra with one port blocked.

So dual V1500s at $1999 would be a very audible upgrade...even at -10dB master levels.

1)Which receiver are you using?

2)Do you have the bass levels *hot*?

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #21544 of 21555 Old Today, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by kluken View Post
As I still procrastinating on my sub decision, I have a pair of V1800s on pre-order, but am wondering if I am making the right decision. I finally got a UMIK-1 and REW set up and ran some experiments on my existing SVS PC13-Ultra. First disclosure this is my first time using REW. Next Audyssey was was previous set up for the sub with all ports open, I did NOT re-run Audyssey between each test as I was just looking to get some SPL and FR numbers to see if dual sealed subs can work for me. These are all with my PC-Ultra with the older BASH amp.

A few interesting observations for a novice, first and foremost while not in the graphs I am uploading) the distortion numbers for this sub were mind boggling low at all frequencies for the first 10 harmonics. I did include the sealed 20Hz as it seems impressive to me. The second thing was how well the FR curve was for sealed mode, it was solid down to 7Hz. I did loose gain compared to all ports open and as I have read you can hear the gain once you get upward of 30Hz. I am wondering how well Audyssey will flatten that out. I did some manual testing to see what it would take to get 110db down around 5Hz and below and had to crank the REW signal generator to -3db from -10db and then the sub went silent ;-). Clearly the BASH was at it's limit because the fuse on the sub blew. First time in 7 years of ownership and fortunately still had the 2 spare fuses SVS shipped with the sub.

What I can not explain is why the sub rolls off over 80Hz the AVR is set to LPF at 120Hz and the speaker crossovers are 100Hz yet in every scenarios the sub rolls fast at 80Hz? Any thoughts on why? Makes me think I am missing content in the 80-100Hz range with the AVR sending below 100Hz and the sub not handling it.

Based on these graphs I am inclined to think that Audyssey might clean up the dip in the 10-30Hz range then sealed is a definite possibly, especially with dual sealed subs!

Am I nuts to go 2 V1800s based on this performance? Would a pair of S1500s be better or just V1500s?

I do watch moves on my Denon at -10db or sometimes a tad louder.

Thanks!


Any thoughts and feedback is welcome as I procrastinate on my sub decision.
RE: Distortion - from your first graph, it looks to me like distortion is rising very fast under 20hz so I'm not sure what you mean when you say "the distortion numbers for this sub were mind boggling low at all frequencies for the first 10 harmonics".

RE: 80hz roll off - Do you have the crossover on the sub amp maxed out? If so, I would venture to guess that you have a null at 80hz. If your sub is close to your mains, measurements of the main speakers would verify that.
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post #21545 of 21555 Old Today, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
RE: Distortion - from your first graph, it looks to me like distortion is rising very fast under 20hz so I'm not sure what you mean when you say "the distortion numbers for this sub were mind boggling low at all frequencies for the first 10 harmonics".

RE: 80hz roll off - Do you have the crossover on the sub amp maxed out? If so, I would venture to guess that you have a null at 80hz. If your sub is close to your mains, measurements of the main speakers would verify that.
Most subs are horrible distortion under 20Hz, but looking at data-bass charts many decent subs are still high distortion up through 31.5 Hz, so I was impressed how clean my sub was.

Sub crossover is maxed all other options are disabled. Someone suggested I hit a null spot and I should move the mic around. Still odd what a drop it has even at 90Hz.

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post #21546 of 21555 Old Today, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Which measurement graph and which subs are you comparing?

I bet you would find a single V1500 performs very similar to your Ultra with one port blocked.

So dual V1500s at $1999 would be a very audible upgrade...even at -10dB master levels.

1)Which receiver are you using?

2)Do you have the bass levels *hot*?

Tom V.
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1) Denon X7200WA
2) I run the AVR with sub about 6db hot.

I did suspect dual V1500s would be the right answer, but since the pre-order pricing of the V1800s is so attractive I will probably stick with those and if for some reason they are way overkill we'll talk about V1500. What about dual S1500, how do you think they woudl stack up seeing my output form the PC-Ultra. Also I assume corner loading is giving me large gain, so pulling them inward toward center credenza will hurt I assume. I am enclosing pic of current layout, room is 15 wide 20 long and 8 foot ceilings.
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post #21547 of 21555 Old Today, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kluken View Post
1) Denon X7200WA
2) I run the AVR with sub about 6db hot.

I did suspect dual V1500s would be the right answer, but since the pre-order pricing of the V1800s is so attractive I will probably stick with those and if for some reason they are way overkill we'll talk about V1500. What about dual S1500, how do you think they woudl stack up seeing my output form the PC-Ultra. Also I assume corner loading is giving me large gain, so pulling them inward toward center credenza will hurt I assume. I am enclosing pic of current layout, room is 15 wide 20 long and 8 foot ceilings.
1)With Audyssey do you keep *Dynamic EQ* set to on? (it defaults to on).

2)6dB hot....oh boy..

So with Master levels up to -10, that is really -4(from ref).

Also, If you have Dyn-EQ on, that will boost your bass levels significantly at lower volume levels as well. I'll include a chart showing this I found on the net somewhere in the past.

3)A single S1500 will have similar headroom (to the ultra in sealed mode) from about 20-60hz. Under 20hz the S1500 will have an edge. In the 60-120hz range the S1500 will have 2-4dB more headroom.

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post #21548 of 21555 Old Today, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
1)With Audyssey do you keep *Dynamic EQ* set to on? (it defaults to on).

2)6dB hot....oh boy..

So with Master levels up to -10, that is really -4(from ref).

Also, If you have Dyn-EQ on, that will boost your bass levels significantly at lower volume levels as well. I'll include a chart showing this I found on the net somewhere in the past.

3)A single S1500 will have similar headroom (to the ultra in sealed mode) from about 20-60hz. Under 20hz the S1500 will have an edge. In the 60-120hz range the S1500 will have 2-4dB more headroom.

Tom V.
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Yup 6db hot and I love reference lows ;-)

All Dynamic EQ/Vol is off.

I assume you meant under 20Hz the V1500 would have egde?

While we are talking how are V1800 fulfillments going? ;-)

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post #21549 of 21555 Old Today, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by kluken View Post
Most subs are horrible distortion under 20Hz, but looking at data-bass charts many decent subs are still high distortion up through 31.5 Hz, so I was impressed how clean my sub was.

Sub crossover is maxed all other options are disabled. Someone suggested I hit a null spot and I should move the mic around. Still odd what a drop it has even at 90Hz.

Ooops....didn't notice that your measurement was at 110db.

I retract my earlier statement.
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post #21550 of 21555 Unread Today, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by kluken View Post
Yup 6db hot and I love reference lows ;-)

All Dynamic EQ/Vol is off.

I assume you meant under 20Hz the V1500 would have egde?

While we are talking how are V1800 fulfillments going? ;-)
No, the S1500. I know I know, if you ask a few guys that judge subwoofer performance solely based on driver "specs", amp "specs" box size, there would be no way a S1500 could match the 13Ultras(in sealed mode)..

But the reality is the way the driver, amplifier and box volume all interact is very complex and the simplistic manners in which these variables are often presented at AVS is really doing a disservice to anyone reading along on some threads. Jim and I have a combined 30(ish) years of experience building and measuring speakers and subwoofers. And we're still surprised a good bit of the time but the way certain systems do *not* act the way they are supposed to once we start the measurement process. Honestly though, this keeps it fun!

Anyway, I'll include a snapshot of the XS15se compared to the Ultra13(sealed mode) from 3rd party measurements(Josh). This the CEA-2010 output comparison. The S1500 is similar to the XS15se in this type of data-set.

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Originally Posted by kluken View Post
Yup 6db hot and I love reference lows ;-)

All Dynamic EQ/Vol is off.

I assume you meant under 20Hz the V1500 would have egde?

While we are talking how are V1800 fulfillments going? ;-)
Also, forgot. The V1800s production schedule in on track at the moment. We should have most/all pre orders fulfilled by the end of this week..

Tom V.
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post #21552 of 21555 Unread Today, 12:31 PM
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Ooops....didn't notice that your measurement was at 110db.

I retract my earlier statement.
I suspect I am getting a large amount of room gain, basically a rectangle with a single 30 inch opening at back corner. There were peaks of 117db in some of my runs.

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Hey Guys, I need your help with putting my classified listing in my sig, PLEASE HELP, TIA
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Hey Guys, I need your help with putting my classified listing in my sig, PLEASE HELP, TIA
Alan P. Hooked you up in the other thread. Here is what he wrote:

Go to your for sale thread
Highlight the title of your thread, copy it (Ctrl-C)
Go to edit your sig and paste the title (Ctrl-V)
Go back to your for sale thread and highlight the URL in the address bar, copy it
Go back to edit your sig and highlight the title of your thread that you pasted in your sig earlier
Select the Insert Link icon above the edit window (looks like a globe with a chain link)
Past the URL you copied in step 5 and hit Enter
Done!
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post #21555 of 21555 Unread Today, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by kluken View Post
I suspect I am getting a large amount of room gain, basically a rectangle with a single 30 inch opening at back corner. There were peaks of 117db in some of my runs.
I might not have been 100% clear earlier Kluken but per your inquiry on the S1500s---I'd except you to feel dual S1500i subs offer several key advantages over a single 13Ultra in sealed mode..

1)Slightly deeper extension.

2)Approximately double the headroom(5-6dB difference) over most of the operating range and even increasing to near triple at either ends of the frequency spectrum(<20hz and >70hz).

3)Potential for dual subs to minimize the negative effects of the room boundaries---peaks and dips at the seating.

4)Your receiver has XT32 AND SUB EQ HT so it is almost a shame not to run duals..

5)I believe you'll be shocked by the size/performance balance on the S1500s.

Anyway, at $1799 you'd be saving $700 too---which would be a lot of new Blu-Rays!

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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