Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 721 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 26507Likes
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-10-2015, 08:04 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 11,567
Mentioned: 101 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 224 Post(s)
Liked: 6199
At the V1800's preorder price I am not sure why anything else is being discussed. That is by far PSA biggest bang vs buck sub at the 1249.00 price point. Sure if Kluken was paying 1499.00 then the 3000i would become much more attractive.
ahblaza likes this.
basshead81 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 08-10-2015, 08:16 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
JT78681's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 3,307
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1441 Post(s)
Liked: 961
^^^ I just checked the website and it shows the price at $1499?

Display - LG OLED
Receiver - Denon
Speakers - Klipsch
Subs - Rythmik
JT78681 is online now  
Old 08-10-2015, 08:20 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 3,379
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1773 Post(s)
Liked: 5149
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
At the V1800's preorder price I am not sure why anything else is being discussed. That is by far PSA biggest bang vs buck sub at the 1249.00 price point. Sure if Kluken was paying 1499.00 then the 3000i would become much more attractive.
I'm not sure about that. The S3000i system would just bit a bit behind in the 16-35hz range, about equal from 35-55hz and pull away in the 60-100hz range. So in terms of output, overall, it's pretty much a wash imo. The primary difference would be extension. You might be going from say 15-16hz to about 6-8hz. Is that last octave worth the extra $350? Well, when the $350 only represents a 14% increase it is worth thinking about. Since the OP is using the Edge of Tomorrow intro as a primary test scene it is worth noting the V1800s aren't going to do much with that 10hz tone. The dual S3000i on the other hand may have his ears popping from the pressure effect. I can see the argument either way though. Also, I would rather not have this one scene used at all for subwoofer auditions. It is really just a 10hz/15hz/20hz sine wave and provides absolutely zero context to the film anyway. Almost like it was put in their as a mistake. Put in your favorite concert disc instead to gauge sound quality. Or, at the least, pop in a GOOD film and watch the entire movie(not just 5 seconds of a pseudo test tone)..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
ahblaza likes this.
Tom Vodhanel is offline  
 
Old 08-10-2015, 08:22 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 3,379
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1773 Post(s)
Liked: 5149
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
^^^ I just checked the website and it shows the price at $1499?
The OP pre-ordered at $2499 for a pair.

We're building the V1800s now, I'll try to get some pictures. We should be caught up by the end of the day. Anyone looking for updates on best pricing, availability, etc please pop into chat and we'll do our best to convince you to give one an audition..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
JT78681 likes this.
Tom Vodhanel is offline  
Old 08-10-2015, 08:28 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
JT78681's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 3,307
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1441 Post(s)
Liked: 961
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
The OP pre-ordered at $2499 for a pair.

We're building the V1800s now, I'll try to get some pictures. We should be caught up by the end of the day. Anyone looking for updates on best pricing, availability, etc please pop into chat and we'll do our best to convince you to give one an audition..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
I'm sure you have probably answered this before, but how does the V1800 fare against the Echo 18?

Display - LG OLED
Receiver - Denon
Speakers - Klipsch
Subs - Rythmik
JT78681 is online now  
Old 08-10-2015, 09:02 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 3,379
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1773 Post(s)
Liked: 5149
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
I'm sure you have probably answered this before, but how does the V1800 fare against the Echo 18?
No idea, I'd have to see a basic set of (real)outside measurements to have a clue. I always avoid making assumptions based on an extremely limited amount of information like "rated amp power" or "claimed driver xmax" for example. You might as well try to predict how a new automobile will perform based only on "rated engine power" or "tire contact patch". It just ends up being a guessing game with some folks making so many assumptions level to level...the inaccuracies get worse exponentially. Of course I'm sure in some bench racing circles you'll have some guy claiming I have the biggest engine with the widest tires so I win..

A lot of folks looked at the small 15 sealed (xs15se and ps15x) from both companies a while back on data-bass and thought they were designed with similar goals and would sound very similar too. I saw two extremely different design goals that measured near polar-opposite in some of the most important metrics. Not saying our way is the only/best way of course there seemed to be a good number of ps15x owners who thought the product sounded fine. But if anyone looks at the impulse, waterfall, etc and considers these similar designs...they really need to grab a few "basic loudspeaker engineering handbooks" and learn the fundamentals.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Mark Seaton and ahblaza like this.

Last edited by Tom Vodhanel; 08-10-2015 at 10:18 AM.
Tom Vodhanel is offline  
Old 08-10-2015, 09:40 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,476
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 317 Post(s)
Liked: 275
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Goto dual S3000i on the outside, and update the mains to book shelf versions, use the S3000i as your stands.

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_714RB61...8616145&awdv=c

I know you had no plans to update the mains but think about it...

For $300-350 you get the pair of brand new RB-61s...should be the perfect match for the 62 center? You're going to highpass all your speakers at 80hz or higher anyway, so the towers offer no benefit over the 61s. And now, the dual S3000i subs are the perfect choice. Compare to the single Ultra13...you are looking at about...4x the headroom <50hz and 6x above 50hz. So 10-12-14dB more headroom down low and 15-18dB more >50hz.

Another way to think of this difference is....when the Ultra13 driver is moving a full inch in both directions to try to keep up, the drivers on the S3000i combo would be in the 4-5mm range...barely coasting..

And now you have the spare 280Fs as a perfect start to a secondary 2 channel system or a great gift to family/friend in need!

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
If only I had not just bought my RP-280F fronts ;-)

But honestly that has me thinking for the future, next time I refresh that may be a great option some MTM-201s on top of S3000is, damn that would be sweet.

Panasonic 65VT60
Denon x7200WA
Oppo BD-103
Klipsch RP-280F / RC-62ii / RS-35 / RS-25
Dual PSA V1800s
kluken is offline  
Old 08-10-2015, 09:41 AM
Advanced Member
 
gbreda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 819
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 439 Post(s)
Liked: 667
Quote:
Originally Posted by kluken View Post
But honestly that has me thinking for the future, next time I refresh that may be a great option some MTM-210s on top of S3000is, damn that would be sweet.
It is
ahblaza and Hopinater like this.
gbreda is offline  
Old 08-10-2015, 09:45 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 3,379
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1773 Post(s)
Liked: 5149
Quote:
Originally Posted by kluken View Post
If only I had not just bought my RP-280F fronts ;-)

But honestly that has me thinking for the future, next time I refresh that may be a great option some MTM-201s on top of S3000is, damn that would be sweet.
We can make that happen too of course. Everything is in stock and would ship today..

Seriously though, let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. Try the S1500s or the V1800s and see which you like. If that 10hz tone is important for you...that sort of eliminates the V1800s. On the other hand, being that 99.9% of music and film material is actually *NOT* a pseudo 10hz sine wave...I bet you'd really like the V1800s overall.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
ahblaza likes this.
Tom Vodhanel is offline  
Old 08-10-2015, 09:49 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,476
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 317 Post(s)
Liked: 275
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
At the V1800's preorder price I am not sure why anything else is being discussed. That is by far PSA biggest bang vs buck sub at the 1249.00 price point. Sure if Kluken was paying 1499.00 then the 3000i would become much more attractive.
Agreed mostly, but the S3000i would give far better extension that the V1800 would. I was all confused on sealed vs. ported until I ran tests with my PC-Ultra in both modes and saw the difference in REW graphs. My ported Ultra drops fast at 18Hz where sealed it went to 7Hz. Same sub, same location. I did give up about 5db in output. It is all a numbers game. What I will say is Tom has been utterly fantastic. I have consumed more than my fair share of his time on this decision and his guidance and suggestions (except my gifting my RP-280Fs ) have been great in helping me through the decision.

Panasonic 65VT60
Denon x7200WA
Oppo BD-103
Klipsch RP-280F / RC-62ii / RS-35 / RS-25
Dual PSA V1800s
kluken is offline  
Old 08-10-2015, 10:01 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 11,567
Mentioned: 101 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 224 Post(s)
Liked: 6199
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT78681 View Post
I'm sure you have probably answered this before, but how does the V1800 fare against the Echo 18?
I would be willing to bet the Echo 18 would have the advantage in the 16-30hz. Much bigger enclosure, more linear throw, and similar power. Keep in mind the V1800 is slightly smaller then the V1500.
basshead81 is offline  
Old 08-10-2015, 10:04 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 11,567
Mentioned: 101 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 224 Post(s)
Liked: 6199
Quote:
Originally Posted by kluken View Post
Agreed mostly, but the S3000i would give far better extension that the V1800 would. I was all confused on sealed vs. ported until I ran tests with my PC-Ultra in both modes and saw the difference in REW graphs. My ported Ultra drops fast at 18Hz where sealed it went to 7Hz. Same sub, same location. I did give up about 5db in output. It is all a numbers game. What I will say is Tom has been utterly fantastic. I have consumed more than my fair share of his time on this decision and his guidance and suggestions (except my gifting my RP-280Fs ) have been great in helping me through the decision.
So are you basing judgement on a graph or what your ears tell you to make the final decision? 7hz extension is meaningless unless you can get enough output down that low. Meaning the lower you go the more output it takes to sound equal to the higher frequencies. Look up the equal loudness curve.

Point is, chase output first, then extension.

I would go with the system that is 115db(reference) capable down to 15hz opposed to the system that is 110-112db capable down to 10hz. The goal should be to get reference level output capability down to atleast 15-16hz. This ensures the sub system with cover 90% of source material with clean reference playback capability. If the 3000i will do that and give you some good output into the 10hz range then go that route. If not stick with the V18's.

Last edited by basshead81; 08-10-2015 at 10:11 AM.
basshead81 is offline  
Old 08-10-2015, 10:12 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
JT78681's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 3,307
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1441 Post(s)
Liked: 961
Quote:
Originally Posted by kluken View Post
Agreed mostly, but the S3000i would give far better extension that the V1800 would. I was all confused on sealed vs. ported until I ran tests with my PC-Ultra in both modes and saw the difference in REW graphs. My ported Ultra drops fast at 18Hz where sealed it went to 7Hz. Same sub, same location. I did give up about 5db in output. It is all a numbers game. What I will say is Tom has been utterly fantastic. I have consumed more than my fair share of his time on this decision and his guidance and suggestions (except my gifting my RP-280Fs ) have been great in helping me through the decision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
So are you basing judgement on a graph or what your ears tell you to make the final decision? 7hz extension is meaningless unless you can get enough output down that low. Meaning the lower you go the more output it takes to sound equal to the higher frequencies. Look up the equal loudness curve.

Point is, chase output first, then extension.

I would go with the system that is 115db(reference) capable down to 15hz opposed to the system that is 110-112db capable down to 10hz. The goal should be to get reference level output capability down to atleast 15-16hz. This ensures the sub system with cover 90% of source material with clean reference playback capability. If the 3000i will do that and give you some good output into the 10hz range then go that route. If not stick with the V18's.
I am hitting around 107-108 at 10hz, but it is not perceivable at all. Like Bass said now I know that it takes a crap ton of power down that low to really feel anything at all.
ahblaza likes this.

Display - LG OLED
Receiver - Denon
Speakers - Klipsch
Subs - Rythmik
JT78681 is online now  
Old 08-10-2015, 10:14 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 3,379
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1773 Post(s)
Liked: 5149
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
I would be willing to bet the Echo 18 would have the advantage in the 16-30hz. Much bigger enclosure, more linear throw, and similar power. Keep in mind the V1800 is slightly smaller then the V1500.
That could be a safe assumption but we also have to remember that many of the variables that will increase system capabilities in one relatively narrow frequency range will usually result in a loss of efficiency/performance in other areas of the operating bandwidth too.

In other words, in a 20hz sine wave war outside the V1800 might get sand kicked in its face. But bring them inside and pop in your favorite movie or better yet....you favorite concert disc and *David* may indeed be more than a match for *Goliath*..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Mark Seaton, Toe, mnc and 2 others like this.
Tom Vodhanel is offline  
Old 08-10-2015, 10:21 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
lizrussspike's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Parkview, IA
Posts: 1,635
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 607 Post(s)
Liked: 728
Quick question. I remember seeing that some to the PSA subwoofer folks were using both L & R on the back of the sub vs just using a single sub cable for LFE. My question is, would there be a advantage to running a splitter from the back of the sub? Thank, Russ
lizrussspike is offline  
Old 08-10-2015, 10:22 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
basshead81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Posts: 11,567
Mentioned: 101 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 224 Post(s)
Liked: 6199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
That could be a safe assumption but we also have to remember that many of the variables that will increase system capabilities in one relatively narrow frequency range will usually result in a loss of efficiency/performance in other areas of the operating bandwidth too.

In other words, in a 20hz sine wave war outside the V1800 might get sand kicked in its face. But bring them inside and pop in your favorite movie or better yet....you favorite concert disc and *David* may indeed be more than a match for *Goliath*..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Agree 100%. I would not choose a sub based on 20hz sine wave wars either.
basshead81 is offline  
Old 08-10-2015, 10:24 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,476
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 317 Post(s)
Liked: 275
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
So are you basing judgement on a graph or what your ears tell you to make the final decision? 7hz extension is meaningless unless you can get enough output down that low. Meaning the lower you go the more output it takes to sound equal to the higher frequencies. Look up the equal loudness curve.

Point is, chase output first, then extension.

I would go with the system that is 115db(reference) capable down to 15hz opposed to the system that is 110-112db capable down to 10hz. The goal should be to get reference level output capability down to atleast 15-16hz. This ensures the sub system with cover 90% of source material with clean reference playback capability. If the 3000i will do that and give you some good output into the 10hz range then go that route. If not stick with the V18's.
Did nto say that, was just using the graphs to demonstate how they operate differently and that each has a set of behaviors. And I know that even to get that extension the sealed is worked very hard where the ported while topping out higher in Hz is likely doing so effortlessly. This is why I suspect the fuse blew on my PC-Ultra, I am sure once Audyssey corrected it down that low the sub amp was working harder than it ever has. I have had the sub 7+ years and I have pushed it (ported) MV above 0 running the sub hot and never blew the fuse.

AS for listening I was doing that yesterday as well. It is hard to do real A/B testing as the time it takes to rerun Audyssey and such you loose that audio memory and I can see why in real try blind A/B tests people can't tell ported from sealed if the sub is designed well and tuned correctly. I did do some good music listening last night and have to say the entire system performed extremely well.

And to Tom's point that I fully understand for 99.9% of the material going to 10Hz is irrelevant.

Panasonic 65VT60
Denon x7200WA
Oppo BD-103
Klipsch RP-280F / RC-62ii / RS-35 / RS-25
Dual PSA V1800s
kluken is offline  
Old 08-10-2015, 10:27 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Tom Vodhanel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 3,379
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1773 Post(s)
Liked: 5149
Quote:
Originally Posted by lizrussspike View Post
Quick question. I remember seeing that some to the PSA subwoofer folks were using both L & R on the back of the sub vs just using a single sub cable for LFE. My question is, would there be a advantage to running a splitter from the back of the sub? Thank, Russ
All you are doing is increasing the signal strength by 6dB. You can do the same by increasing the bass level control in the receiver by 6dB. So most of time, there are no benefits involved. But, in some rare cases where the signal strength may not be as high ass needed to push the subwoofer to max performance capabilities this can actually have dramatic benefits.

Just be sure to re-calibrate after you add the Y cable otherwise you'll hear the bass being 6dB louder and you may think you just super charged the system..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Tom Vodhanel is offline  
Old 08-10-2015, 10:55 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
lizrussspike's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Parkview, IA
Posts: 1,635
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 607 Post(s)
Liked: 728
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
All you are doing is increasing the signal strength by 6dB. You can do the same by increasing the bass level control in the receiver by 6dB. So most of time, there are no benefits involved. But, in some rare cases where the signal strength may not be as high ass needed to push the subwoofer to max performance capabilities this can actually have dramatic benefits.

Just be sure to re-calibrate after you add the Y cable otherwise you'll hear the bass being 6dB louder and you may think you just super charged the system..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Thanks Tom, Think I got it now.
lizrussspike is offline  
Old 08-10-2015, 02:22 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
lizrussspike's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Parkview, IA
Posts: 1,635
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 607 Post(s)
Liked: 728
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
All you are doing is increasing the signal strength by 6dB. You can do the same by increasing the bass level control in the receiver by 6dB. So most of time, there are no benefits involved. But, in some rare cases where the signal strength may not be as high ass needed to push the subwoofer to max performance capabilities this can actually have dramatic benefits.

Just be sure to re-calibrate after you add the Y cable otherwise you'll hear the bass being 6dB louder and you may think you just super charged the system..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Never mind the splitter, I installed the splitter, turned the V3600 back on and immediately had "the hum", so I removed the splitter
lizrussspike is offline  
Old 08-10-2015, 03:57 PM
Member
 
SuperFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Chicago Area
Posts: 120
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 83
I actually had an issue with the ice amp on my v1500's where the standby mode would go active way too quickly in quiet passages or would not consistently go into standby mode at all. After talking with Tom a few times I found the cabling needed to be rerouted such that it was further away from power cords as well as using the splitters on the R&L inputs of the amp. After that I have had no more issues at all with them. Tom was great to work with and was more than willing to spend time with me and offered to send new amps out immediately if we hadn't resolved the issues with some easy low tech trial and error. Great company to work with and really stand behind all aspects of their product.
SuperFan is offline  
Old 08-10-2015, 04:03 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 9,708
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4944 Post(s)
Liked: 3574
Got a strange one for you guys -

I was reading last night with the system off, however my T-18s stay powered on 24/7. Since the room was completely quiet, I noticed a strange, soft, intermittent "scratchy" noise. After some investigating, I determined it was my subs making the noise, and it was the power connection to the wall outlet.

If I would wiggle the plug where it goes into the wall socket, it would "scratch" pretty loud. So, I powered off the subs and plugged/unplugged/wiggled the connection in/out of the outlet a few times and seem to have got the "scratchy" noise to stop when the plug is "at rest", but if I even touch the power cord...SCRATCH!

Do I need to replace my receptacles, or....??
Alan P is online now  
Old 08-10-2015, 04:06 PM
Advanced Member
 
ggsantafe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Solar Powered in the Land of Enchantment
Posts: 971
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 213 Post(s)
Liked: 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Got a strange one for you guys -

I was reading last night with the system off, however my T-18s stay powered on 24/7. Since the room was completely quiet, I noticed a strange, soft, intermittent "scratchy" noise. After some investigating, I determined it was my subs making the noise, and it was the power connection to the wall outlet.

If I would wiggle the plug where it goes into the wall socket, it would "scratch" pretty loud. So, I powered off the subs and plugged/unplugged/wiggled the connection in/out of the outlet a few times and seem to have got the "scratchy" noise to stop when the plug is "at rest", but if I even touch the power cord...SCRATCH!

Do I need to replace my receptacles, or....??
I had a similar problem that resolved itself when I changed out the Subs RCA cable(s) - I'd try that test first if its feasible and see what you find out.
Alan P likes this.

ggsantafe is online now  
Old 08-10-2015, 04:54 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,476
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 317 Post(s)
Liked: 275
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Agree 100%. I would not choose a sub based on 20hz sine wave wars either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
So are you basing judgement on a graph or what your ears tell you to make the final decision? 7hz extension is meaningless unless you can get enough output down that low. Meaning the lower you go the more output it takes to sound equal to the higher frequencies. Look up the equal loudness curve.

Point is, chase output first, then extension.

I would go with the system that is 115db(reference) capable down to 15hz opposed to the system that is 110-112db capable down to 10hz. The goal should be to get reference level output capability down to at least 15-16hz. This ensures the sub system with cover 90% of source material with clean reference playback capability. If the 3000i will do that and give you some good output into the 10hz range then go that route. If not stick with the V18's.
So let me explain to this those who were thinking I am nuts or that comparing dual V1800s to S1500s is unfair fight.

I recently remodeled my home and part of that was redoing the media room and moving my gear from a rack into a credenza with minor change in layout to accommodate dual subs. I wound up doing upgrades and got an AVR and front 3 speakers in the process as well. Next was the sub. I was a long term happy SVS customer and if the PB-Ultra would have been reasonable prices would have likely just got two of them. In researching alternatives I started reading more on sub design and characteristics as I had always had ported cylinders.

While I was mostly HT vs music I knew I wanted to spend more time appreciating music. I kept reading on sealed vs. ported and all the facts as well as myths. I did read that most people can't tell the difference if subs are well designed and tuned. That being said there was still enough out there about potential benefits on sealed with music. One thing I noticed is that while I love my PC-Ultra as it was far cleaner than my old PC-Plus 20-39 I still felt it was not as tight and crisp as it could be. So I decided I would explore the options. My short list was initially ported HSU, Rythmik and V1500. Then I was thinking sealed and was exploring the F15HP and S1500, but the shorter warranty and Tom's awesome service kept my PSA only. The S3000i was interesting, just did not like the amp on the side as the subs would be close to credenza and a so amp and cables would be visible. If there were a S1800 this decision would have been done a while ago. So the S1500 vs. V1500 was a closer comparison until the V1800 was coming at a great pre-order price.

So then it was a no brainer to pre-order the V1800s. In the meantime Tom being the helpful person he is suggested I try sealing my PC-Ultra and run some tests. In the process I did some REW tests and happened to watch Edge of Tomorrow and notices what that scene did. Initially I thought sealed mighty be viable since it dug deep and sounded fine, until that scene when I realized how much a sealed sub needs to be pushed to dig that deep and comprising distortion in the process. Thus to get there would a pair of S1500s do it? Tom has been great with extensive advice and responding at all sorts of crazy hours.

Ultimately my goal was try to get the best of both worlds; the deep extension, mid bass punch and tightness and musicality of a sealed with the output I need that a ported would give me. Can I get that with dual S1500s, maybe? Can I get everything except the sub 16Hz extension with dual V1800s, most definitely yes. Is the .1% of the movies that may dig down to 10Hz that important, not really, although would be cool to,hear that scene deep and clean. In the end if the V1800s are musically as good as the S1500s then that makes the most sense. While I know I can audition them both (and Tom is not shy about encouraging that) I am trying to avoid costing him return shipping and want to try and get the decision right the first time.

I do want to thank everyone (especially Tom) for their advice and opinions, regardless of how nuts I have seemed at times, as I have found this process extremely educational and eye opening and hope the posts can help others. Tom has provided very detailed explanations for various recommendations in various scenarios again, providing an excellent educational experience.
Again thanks to all.
ahblaza, gbreda, dsrussell and 1 others like this.

Panasonic 65VT60
Denon x7200WA
Oppo BD-103
Klipsch RP-280F / RC-62ii / RS-35 / RS-25
Dual PSA V1800s

Last edited by kluken; 08-10-2015 at 06:16 PM.
kluken is offline  
Old 08-10-2015, 06:58 PM
Toe
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Toe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,422
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1755 Post(s)
Liked: 2045
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
I'm not sure about that. The S3000i system would just bit a bit behind in the 16-35hz range, about equal from 35-55hz and pull away in the 60-100hz range. So in terms of output, overall, it's pretty much a wash imo. The primary difference would be extension. You might be going from say 15-16hz to about 6-8hz. Is that last octave worth the extra $350? Well, when the $350 only represents a 14% increase it is worth thinking about. Since the OP is using the Edge of Tomorrow intro as a primary test scene it is worth noting the V1800s aren't going to do much with that 10hz tone. The dual S3000i on the other hand may have his ears popping from the pressure effect. I can see the argument either way though. Also, I would rather not have this one scene used at all for subwoofer auditions. It is really just a 10hz/15hz/20hz sine wave and provides absolutely zero context to the film anyway. Almost like it was put in their as a mistake. Put in your favorite concert disc instead to gauge sound quality. Or, at the least, pop in a GOOD film and watch the entire movie(not just 5 seconds of a pseudo test tone)..

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
Thank you! I have grown to hate that EoT intro for the exact reasons you mention. In the context of the film, it is so out of place IMO that it truly feels like it is a mistake.
mnc, ahblaza and Hopinater like this.

JVC CMD Vertical Banding: Affects all currently shipping lamp based JVC Projectors
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...rojectors.html
PLEASE CALL JVC AND REPORT THE CMD BANDING IF THIS BOTHERS YOU
1-800-252-5722
Choose option 1, then 4 and have your serial# ready (located on back of unit or box).
Toe is online now  
Old 08-10-2015, 07:02 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ahblaza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pittsburgh Steeler Country
Posts: 2,785
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1660 Post(s)
Liked: 1754
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Got a strange one for you guys -

I was reading last night with the system off, however my T-18s stay powered on 24/7. Since the room was completely quiet, I noticed a strange, soft, intermittent "scratchy" noise. After some investigating, I determined it was my subs making the noise, and it was the power connection to the wall outlet.

If I would wiggle the plug where it goes into the wall socket, it would "scratch" pretty loud. So, I powered off the subs and plugged/unplugged/wiggled the connection in/out of the outlet a few times and seem to have got the "scratchy" noise to stop when the plug is "at rest", but if I even touch the power cord...SCRATCH!

Do I need to replace my receptacles, or....??

Alan, is this with both subs plugged into the same outlet or is this one sub doing the scratchy sound or both? Also are the subs plugged directly into the outlet or a SP then the outlet? I would first try to isolate the problem, start with power cord swaps and see what happens. Are the power cords snug in both the wall outlet and at the sub end, if so swapping out the cords doesn't help it's more than likely the receptacle.


If none of the above helps, you need to check the actual receptacle itself, before you do that though I would first try another outlet and see if the problem persists, matter of fact that's the first thing I would do and then the power cord swaps. Try these and report back. If the problem is gone with another outlet, then you know that's your problem (original outlet) and we can continue from there...................
PS: Do you know how to use a multimeter ? Estimated guess it's your outlet....

Cheers Jeff

PSS: After you figure out your problem then proceed with this tweak.........
I do this little trick with all my power cords, get a Q-tip and put a small amount of 3-in-one oil on the tip and apply a thin coating on all the prongs and push the plugs in and out of the wall receptacle a few times, this prevents arching when you pull or push the plugs in or out the receptacle, it also improves connection, this is not SNAKE OIL..
Alan P likes this.
ahblaza is offline  
Old 08-10-2015, 07:08 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ahblaza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pittsburgh Steeler Country
Posts: 2,785
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1660 Post(s)
Liked: 1754
ahblaza is offline  
Old 08-10-2015, 07:22 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Hopinater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Central VA
Posts: 5,003
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2075 Post(s)
Liked: 5077
Hey Kluken you haven't sounded nuts, you just sound like a normal guy shopping for a subwoofer.

Or at least a normal guy for this thread.
mnc and Mike Butny like this.
Hopinater is offline  
Old 08-10-2015, 08:20 PM
Member
 
mmbuckwa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Lancaster, Pennsylvania
Posts: 175
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked: 17
I just got my v1500 last week and was wondering what is happening inside the sub when adjusting the room size dial on the back. I initially had it set all the way to small since I have a smaller room. I wasn't impressed with what I was hearing so I twisted it all the way to large and got the sound I was expecting. Is there any chance of damaging it by running it on all the way on large room?
mmbuckwa is offline  
Old 08-10-2015, 08:33 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
oneeyeblind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,050
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 257 Post(s)
Liked: 471
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmbuckwa View Post
I just got my v1500 last week and was wondering what is happening inside the sub when adjusting the room size dial on the back. I initially had it set all the way to small since I have a smaller room. I wasn't impressed with what I was hearing so I twisted it all the way to large and got the sound I was expecting. Is there any chance of damaging it by running it on all the way on large room?
No there is no danger of running the sub to large.

The room size control is used to change the bottom roll off of the sub. The large setting results in no change from the factory setting. Its basically a way to match the sub to your room to get the best sound. Another way to think of it, the control only cuts the low end. Left to large it doesn't change anything.
ahblaza likes this.

ShaunH
oneeyeblind is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
 

Tags
Denon Avr 3313ci Receiver , Denon Avr 4520ci Receiver , Denon Avr X4000 7 2 Channel Home Theater Receiver , Power Sound Audio , Power Sound Audio Triax , Room Equilizer Wizard Rew , v1500 , V1800 , v1801 , V3600i , Velodyne Sms 1 In Room Bass Correction Kit With Included Microphone , Xs30 , Xv15
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off