Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 727 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #21781 of 22064 Old 08-14-2015, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by kluken View Post
Klipsch does get some grief about over stating their efficiency as well as they always say 8 ohms compatible, but have been know to dip down to 6 ohms or less at spots. But wouldn't the levels being set to negative number indicate the speaks is more efficient than the AVR's baseline? After all it has to lower the db to get them all to the reference level (75db?) it is using for calculations?

I was going to get the Harrison labs attentuator, they get great reviews:

http://www.parts-express.com/harriso...-pair--266-244


I am less worried about boosting levels across the board just want to make sure the sub is not being max attenuated at -12db when maybe it is still too hot.
So you are thinking more along the minidsp 2x4 lines to adjust the subs??
Do you have the sub level option enabled in the Audio menu? The Denon and my Marantz 8802 will boost bass by 5db when enabled, try setting it to off to see if it helps , as a side note I did find the calibration levels from Audyssey to be lower than my previous 8801 and it may be the D&M "s newer models with higher gain outputs on all the channels, use an spl meter to check the levels of all the speakers and use the option feature to see if you can further trim the sub to 75db regardless of the -12 (if the above doesn't work) and remember the setting and boost from there!

Hope this helps and congrats on the new toy
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post #21782 of 22064 Old 08-14-2015, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
I was just going by the speaker settings relative to the subwoofer setting. (re the Klipsch ratings)

The boosting "across the board" will allow you to ensure the subwoofer channel has plenty of flexibility while maintaining proper output relationship with the rest of the channels.

You could try the miniDSP or even an antimode to attenuate the bass signal as needed. I would just reset the channel gain settings myself though...no need to add anything to any of the signal paths really.

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Power Sound Audio
Not sure that can be done on my Denon, if I recall Audyssey basically uses channel levels of 0 and runs 75db test tones to do room correction, it then adjusts the values for each channel up or down up to 12db to apply balanced room correction. If Audyessy is at -12db, the sub could be far hotter than the -12db indicates. If I put an attenuator in line then the gain can on the sub can be raised further from almost off to allow audyssey to get the sub within its ranges. Audy does SW leveling and with the sub gain barely on it i is already at 85+db while Audy wants it to be 75db. This was one of my fears with doing V1800 in such a small room. My single PC Ultra I coudl turn the gain up a little and still have Audy say it was around 80db and it would correct the sub to about -6db. Even dual S1500s would probably caused me same issue, maybe a tad less.

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post #21783 of 22064 Old 08-14-2015, 11:56 AM
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Do you have the sub level option enabled in the Audio menu? The Denon and my Marantz 8802 will boost bass by 5db when enabled, try setting it to off to see if it helps , as a side note I did find the calibration levels from Audyssey to be lower than my previous 8801 and it may be the D&M "s newer models with higher gain outputs on all the channels, use an spl meter to check the levels of all the speakers and use the option feature to see if you can further trim the sub to 75db regardless of the -12 (if the above doesn't work) and remember the setting and boost from there!

Hope this helps and congrats on the new toy
I will double check and make sure it is 0, but I think Audy bypasses that and that option is applied post Audy.

I will check with SPL again, but notices they were around what I expected.

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post #21784 of 22064 Old 08-14-2015, 11:57 AM
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Have you verified that you are getting 75db of output after calibration? My point is it sounds like the calibration is off and not correctly measuring the system.
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post #21785 of 22064 Old 08-14-2015, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by kluken View Post
Not sure that can be done on my Denon, if I recall Audyssey basically uses channel levels of 0 and runs 75db test tones to do room correction, it then adjusts the values for each channel up or down up to 12db to apply balanced room correction. If Audyessy is at -12db, the sub could be far hotter than the -12db indicates. If I put an attenuator in line then the gain can on the sub can be raised further from almost off to allow audyssey to get the sub within its ranges. Audy does SW leveling and with the sub gain barely on it i is already at 85+db while Audy wants it to be 75db. This was one of my fears with doing V1800 in such a small room. My single PC Ultra I coudl turn the gain up a little and still have Audy say it was around 80db and it would correct the sub to about -6db. Even dual S1500s would probably caused me same issue, maybe a tad less.

You are way in the negatives across the board. Just add 10dB to all channel settings in the speaker setup menu. I don't have any experience with those attenuators but I have measured the F-mods from the same company and they left a lot to be desired in terms of performance vs. specs. YMMV.

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post #21786 of 22064 Old 08-14-2015, 12:06 PM
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Have you verified that you are getting 75db of output after calibration? My point is it sounds like the calibration is off and not correctly measuring the system.
I will check again, I thought it was close, but then I did not spend much time at all on this yet. Next 2 days I will try and really collect data to see what things are set for and what impact. The other thing with the new Denons is evidently the test tones are based off MV, so I have to set MV to -10 and compare that tone to SPL which in theory then should be 75db. I will say with my old 4311 and SPL the test tones were always around 73db.

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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
You are way in the negatives across the board. Just add 10dB to all channel settings in the speaker setup menu. I don't have any experience with those attenuators but I have measured the F-mods from the same company and they left a lot to be desired in terms of performance vs. specs. YMMV.

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Understand, but adding 10db to the channel settings post audy does not solve the sub being -12db. Audy always goes back to using 0 for its 75db test sweeps as a reference.

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post #21787 of 22064 Old 08-14-2015, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by kluken View Post

Understand, but adding 10db to the channel settings post audy does not solve the sub being -12db. Audy always goes back to using 0 for its 75db test sweeps as a reference.

Once you add 10, the sub channel will be -02. Even if the second subs adds a full 6, you'll be at -08.

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post #21788 of 22064 Old 08-14-2015, 12:15 PM
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Why yes I see what Tom is saying...you need to add more gain to the sub so Audyssey will raise the main speakers. Normally when we see a set level of -12 here, the mains are 0. Then you would want to lower the amp gain on the sub. Being the main speakers are set in the -4/-7 range indicates the sub is potentially low. Even at that this still seems like a potential mic issue because I find it weird Audyssey is pulling db from the sub and speakers.
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post #21789 of 22064 Old 08-14-2015, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Why yes I see what Tom is saying...you need to add more gain to the sub so Audyssey will raise the main speakers. Normally when we see a set level of -12 here, the mains are 0. Then you would want to lower the amp gain on the sub. Being the main speakers are set in the -4/-7 range indicates the sub is potentially low. Even at that this still seems like a potential mic issue because I find it weird Audyssey is pulling db from the sub and speakers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Once you add 10, the sub channel will be -02. Even if the second subs adds a full 6, you'll be at -08.

Tom V.
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Ah OK I see! I will try that, but if I recall I don't think that is how Audy works, because I have seen my PC-Ultra be -6db while the mains were still in the -5.5 range, if that does nto work then maybe a minidsp 2.4 will do the trick, been tempted to try that unit and I noticed in the manual there is a input sensitivity setting:

Note that the input sensitivity jumper setting does not affect the maximum output signal – it is always 0.9 V
RMS. Therefore, when the jumper is in the 2.0 V position, the miniDSP (without any other processing enabled)
has an approximately 7 dB insertion loss.


To me that sounds like an automatic 7db attenuation across the board. Then I gain all the REW/minidsp tweaking I can do to help form some of the room issues. Hopefully I will have some time tomorrow to try all this. I like the V1800s, but if I have to keep the gain so low I might be better with V1500s or the S1500s. 28 days to go to figure this out ;-)

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post #21790 of 22064 Old 08-14-2015, 03:22 PM
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Just how small is your room, kluken? Any particular reason you didn't go sealed from the get-go?
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post #21791 of 22064 Old 08-14-2015, 05:32 PM
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Just how small is your room, kluken? Any particular reason you didn't go sealed from the get-go?
15x20x8 roughly. Around 2300 cu ft with one 30 inch opening. I considered dual S1500s, but the attraction of the V1800s that can deliver clean down to 16Hz, I was concerned that sealed would have problems with high clean high SPL down around 24 and lower. Actually Tom recommended dual S1500s, but I think we I did some experimenting sealing my PC-Ultra I got nervous when I noticed how it struggled down low.
I do have 28 days left to make a decision and could always fall back.

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post #21792 of 22064 Old 08-14-2015, 06:34 PM
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this issue has nothing to do with ported or sealed alignments.
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post #21793 of 22064 Old 08-14-2015, 06:37 PM
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True, but the S1500s would be less output this easier set gain to keep Audy happy.

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post #21794 of 22064 Old 08-14-2015, 10:01 PM
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V3600

Can anyone tell me what their experience has been with R+L carriers when having speakers delivered.
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post #21795 of 22064 Old 08-14-2015, 10:12 PM
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Can anyone tell me what their experience has been with R+L carriers when having speakers delivered.
I haven't had speakers delivered by them, but had a 133" screen delivered from Texas to Illinois from them. They called a day before asking what day and time I'd be available for them to deliver it. Overall the process was pretty smooth.
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post #21796 of 22064 Old 08-14-2015, 11:22 PM
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True, but the S1500s would be less output this easier set gain to keep Audy happy.
No that is not how it works. Both the S1500 and V1800 utilize ICE amps which will have similar gain structures. The only point you would notice any difference is the S1500 running out of headroom before the V1800. They both will require similar gain settings to achieve a 75db calibration.
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post #21797 of 22064 Old 08-15-2015, 04:02 AM
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No that is not how it works. Both the S1500 and V1800 utilize ICE amps which will have similar gain structures. The only point you would notice any difference is the S1500 running out of headroom before the V1800. They both will require similar gain settings to achieve a 75db calibration.
So the amps are tuned to delive similar output at similar gain setting? Did not realize that. I assumed they would deliver proportional output based on gain setting with SPL output difference being based on driver size and enclosure and then the sealed running out of headroom earlier.

Well I ordered the 12db attenuators as short term test then am exploring minidisc 2X4 anyway which if I change the input sensitivity basically takes 7 db away and then gives me the flexibility to really tune the subs further.

Should be able to get both subs in play today closer in and push the fronts wider, then will start tuning and listening.

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Can anyone tell me what their experience has been with R+L carriers when having speakers delivered.
the local R+L carriers here in Davenport are great. They kept me up to date when I called, and even let me come pick it up with my truck. Now I have a beautiful V3600 rockin the house. My sub arrived very well packaged and no signs of damage.

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post #21799 of 22064 Old 08-15-2015, 06:54 AM
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No that is not how it works. Both the S1500 and V1800 utilize ICE amps which will have similar gain structures. The only point you would notice any difference is the S1500 running out of headroom before the V1800. They both will require similar gain settings to achieve a 75db calibration.
The ICE modules are identical, that is true. We programs the frontend(DSP) so each system is optimized.

But remember, the sub level tones should be 40-80hz band limited. So we have one more variable to consider. I don't have the data-sets right in front of me but the V1800 is much more efficient in this bandwidth. Just taking a guess...maybe 5-6dB(ish).

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Can anyone tell me what their experience has been with R+L carriers when having speakers delivered.
Great experience here with my 3600. My sub hit their warehouse last Wed and they called and left me a message. I wasn't able to get back with them Wed (busy day) and they called me again Thurs and we set up a Sat delivery. They called when they were on the way and brought the sub in the garage. Nice and smooth drop.
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Great experience here with my 3600. My sub hit their warehouse last Wed and they called and left me a message. I wasn't able to get back with them Wed (busy day) and they called me again Thurs and we set up a Sat delivery. They called when they were on the way and brought the sub in the garage. Nice and smooth drop.
I think Tom and Jim should think about a bundle package for the V3600i subs. You get one sub, the Antimode Dual Core, and a furniture dolly.
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post #21802 of 22064 Old 08-15-2015, 08:35 AM
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So the amps are tuned to delive similar output at similar gain setting? Did not realize that. I assumed they would deliver proportional output based on gain setting with SPL output difference being based on driver size and enclosure and then the sealed running out of headroom earlier.

Well I ordered the 12db attenuators as short term test then am exploring minidisc 2X4 anyway which if I change the input sensitivity basically takes 7 db away and then gives me the flexibility to really tune the subs further.

Should be able to get both subs in play today closer in and push the fronts wider, then will start tuning and listening.
In theory yes but tom just stated the V1800 is 5-6db more efficient so no that is not correct. The s1500 would definitely take more gain to get the same level of output if that is the case. Still it does not make sense that audyssey is pulling db from both the sub and mains. It should be adding db to the speakers and pulling it from the subs if the gain is set extremely high.


Did you try a different mic? For kicks you might even try hooking the 4311 back up.
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In theory yes but tom just stated the V1800 is 5-6db more efficient so no that is not correct. The s1500 would definitely take more gain to get the same level of output if that is the case. Still it does not make sense that audyssey is pulling db from both the sub and mains. It should be adding db to the speakers and pulling it from the subs if the gain is set extremely high.


Did you try a different mic? For kicks you might even try hooking the 4311 back up.
Just getting ready to set up second sub, rearrange the front stage and re-tune.

BTW, had similar issues with PC-Ultra on 4311, just too much for Audy, always had to keep that sub gain very low.

I did some reading on Audyssy last night and best I can tell it does the test tones at what it feels are 75db and then adjust the levels so that each channel is delivering 75db, thus at MV -10 I should be getting around 75db out of the speakers. With efficient speakers and a lot of room gain for the sub I believe this is why things are so much in the negative. I will test cranking up the sub to see if it move the speaker more postive, but everything I have been reading makes it seem that the sub will just max at -12 and the speakers will be around where they are now. When I looked at the graphs that Audy applied they look very similar to what my 4311 did and my 4311 usually had my speakers in the -4 to -5 range, but I also had to have the PC-Ultra fairly low in gain as well, but it would usually come in around -6 to -8db.

I just think it is the small room size and cabin gain that just makes it hard to get any high powered sub dialed in well since they would all need very low gain for Audy not to complain.


I should have some additional feedback in a few hours. Time to go set things up...

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Yes, Yes, Yes and Yes. I absolutely agree. Oblivion stands well above the pack when it comes to how a movie should be done. It is also a fun movie to watch so you get the best of both worlds. It is one time when you can have your cake and eat it too (IMO).

P.S. JT I quoted you even though you live without a PSA sub.
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I think Tom and Jim should think about a bundle package for the V3600i subs. You get one sub, the Antimode Dual Core, and a furniture dolly.
Who needs a furniture dolly with the v3600? Just carry it like I did (not recommended)!
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
In theory yes but tom just stated the V1800 is 5-6db more efficient so no that is not correct. The s1500 would definitely take more gain to get the same level of output if that is the case. Still it does not make sense that audyssey is pulling db from both the sub and mains. It should be adding db to the speakers and pulling it from the subs if the gain is set extremely high.


Did you try a different mic? For kicks you might even try hooking the 4311 back up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Once you add 10, the sub channel will be -02. Even if the second subs adds a full 6, you'll be at -08.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
OK, rearranged the front stage and brought the V1800's twin into play. So a few things. I ran Audy with the 7200 mc and let it complain it was too high and it said both subs were around 95db. Ran the set up and you can see the results int he one pic. Then I ran it again using my 4311 mc and let audy complain again, but turned gain down until it said 85db. You can see those results. One thing I noticed is the 4311 mic was saying the subs were initially 87-98db vs. the 95db the 7200 mic was saying, thus I think thats why all the speakers went more negative. I ran test level with my RS SPL and at MV 0 everything was around 74db, I had a tweek a few speakers 2db higher to get them all on slow response to show 74db. I know the SPL is not the best way to measure a sub, but the sub was an easy 10 too low on the RS SPL set to slow response. I dialed it up 10db and now all channels register 74db on my SPL. The sub gain is barley on, even at the 95db audy complaint it was only at the 9pm position on the dial. I am out of time today, but tomorrow I am breaking out REW and UMIK-1 to take readings to see what is up. I have a feeling Audy is getting confused with something, not sure if it is the room or what. I know this is making me think long term the next investment is a real Room EQ DSP and dump Audy long term. Short term depending on what REW says tomorrow maybe a minidsp 2x4 for the subs.

It is a real pain to put the 4311 back and in a few hours it is being picked up by its new owner. Knows that the speaker levels are not far from where they have always been just makes me think something about Audy on the 7200 is getting confused in my room. I do want to reach out to Denon to confirm that post Audy MV test tones are supposed to be 75db as I thought MV on the Denon was supposed to be 85 db.


I did not spend much time listening to this set up, but a few early observations.

First observation, WOW!
Second observation OH WOW!

So before I remolded there was a door to the left of the left speaker which is why I never widen the fronts, but now with the fronts spread wide and the sub out of the corners and tight to the credenza, the sound-stage is incredible! Also the lows are very tight and clean. Have not run any music yet, but I am a sucker for abuse so I ran the opening scene of Edge of Tomorrow and damn the depth was so tight. Not sure where it ultimately rolled off, but I could not tell, it seemed low and tight through the scene. Then the scene in the plane where they get hit then land on the beach, you could feel the lows int he floor, but you could feel them cleanly, not boomy.

As for the V1800s being too big, I actually think they go well in the set up, even the gf says they look fine ;-)

Will post another update tomorrow once I spend more time getting accurate readings out of REW.
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Last edited by kluken; 08-15-2015 at 12:31 PM.
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post #21807 of 22064 Old 08-15-2015, 01:08 PM
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^^ Kluken if this helps my V3600's gain (with the ICE amp) is set at 9:00 o'clock on the dial and it is 13 feet away from the MLP. Where as my XV15se's gain (with the Bash amp) is set at about 1:00 o'clock and it is nearfield, right next to the MLP.

So don't surprised that your gain is so low. Turn it down to 8:00 and try it. I have a very large area and like I said I have my gain set where yours is.
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post #21808 of 22064 Old 08-15-2015, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post
Great experience here with my 3600. My sub hit their warehouse last Wed and they called and left me a message. I wasn't able to get back with them Wed (busy day) and they called me again Thurs and we set up a Sat delivery. They called when they were on the way and brought the sub in the garage. Nice and smooth drop.
Toe…Get those toys set up and let us know what you think.
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post #21809 of 22064 Old 08-15-2015, 01:37 PM
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Toe…Get those toys set up and let us know what you think.
Um! yeah! I'll second that! stop horsing around Toe and get to work
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post #21810 of 22064 Old 08-15-2015, 05:41 PM
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I'm slacking guys! It's too nice out to play inside today, but I did get a few hours in and measured the old system (wanted to refresh my memory on a few things), got the old sub out and 3600 in (didn't fire it up yet). Hope I'm more motivated tom as I don't want to piss away my trial period! I actually like the way the 3600 looks in my room better vs the 12/2 since it is 6" shorter ( laying on it's side) and fits under my screen better. I did place one of the 210s on top of the 3600 as well just to see how it looked since it will act as a stand and the combo of the two is quite the sight!
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