Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 733 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 08-23-2015, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post
I don't think SpeakerPower offers ICE amps that big though. I believe they have 350watt, 700watt and 1400watt. Also anything bigger then starts to get up there in cost to the point where the 2400 watt SpeakerPower torpedo amp comes into play.
Then how is the 3000i 1700 watts? I am sure if you put 3 drivers on that amp module you could squeeze a little more out of it. Aside from that the ICE amps appear to be conservatively rated.
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Old 08-23-2015, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by FattyMcButterPants View Post
I like this idea a lot. For someone like me that never exceeds -10db MV I love the utility of it since I'll never push the current model to it's max. However, and this was pointed out to me in another thread where I posed something similar, you really aren't getting the T-18 in all it's intended glory if you cut the amp power.

I am not sure which side of the fence I fall on here, both sides make sense to me.
I do not think you would be losing much if anything. Like Tom mentioned, there are some higher powered ICE amps available and they still cost significantly less then a Torpedo amp.

Also you would gain features with the ICE amp that the Torpedo simply does not have...Auto on and Room Control come to mind.

To top it off I do not think much of any deep bass would be lost, might just loose a couple db in the higher bass and the T-18 has way more then enough to spare.

In the end if this could be done I think it would sell like hot cakes. It would compete with the Gamma 218 price range. Just saying it seems like most people budgets tend to limit around 2k per sub for even the big players. I am guessing which is why Jeff Permanian stepped the Cap 2400 down to the 1400. The slight loss in output is miniscule for the potential cost savings.

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Old 08-23-2015, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
Then how is the 3000i 1700 watts? I am sure if you put 3 drivers on that amp module you could squeeze a little more out of it. Aside from that the ICE amps appear to be conservatively rated.
A lot of the ICE power rating confusion can be traced back to an instance where one of our competitors posted a 925 watt spec(I wonder where they got that from http://www.avsforum.com/forum/images...s/rolleyes.gif.

After that, another competitor decided using anything other than a generic spec listed on the ICE PDF(700 watts per module) wasn't the *correct* way to rate these amplifiers.

It all ended up with many folks making completely erroneous assumptions about the ICE amps and exactly what ANY of the ratings really mean.

How to accurately rate each product using these ICE modules is something Jim and I spend a great deal of time with. It's a bit more complex than just looking at a graph. These are all reactive loads to the amp(not simply a bank of resistors). Each amplifier will react different to each driver AND each cabinet design. Now, if that doesn't represent enough variables...the MAJOR player is all of this is the DSP configuration. You can loosen things up, throttle it all back, with plenty of options in the middle.

Now, perhaps the MOST important consideration in all of these discussions might be....exactly what "rated power" should mean in this context? Is it providing that power continuously with no duration limits? If so, none of the ICE amps will even approach their "ratings" For that matter none of the Speaker Power amps will either.(I don't know of any subwoofer amp that would) There is no industry standard to any of this but IMO you should be able to provide the rated power for 5-10 second durations with peak power in the 500ms range or perhaps even 2x that. This is what Jim and I try to use a a basis for our ratings.

At the end of the day though I would caution anyone from putting too much important on these "ratings". Much like driver "weight" it often becomes more of a marketing ploy than anything the truly relates to the overall sound quality of the products involved.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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Old 08-23-2015, 09:39 AM
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Hadn't watched Metallica through the never since I got my psa mt110's and triple xs30's ...and for that matter my new room

WOW! Talk about like your being there. Ulrichs bass kicks literally kick you in the chest. And the spaciousness and crisp sound is outstanding.

Man these things (speakers and subs) are so dang good.

Ok enough of the brag. But they just keep
Making me happy over and over again hahah

Amen to that!!! Last scene Orion is the sh+#
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Old 08-23-2015, 09:55 AM
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5)At the moment we don't have anything on "fast forward" for any new <$1000 subwoofer. I've mentioned this in the past but this appears to be impossible keeping everything on USA soil. Jim and I have been talking about a $499 sub and a $999 5.1 system since day one. But the reality is...we'd need to go overseas for this and that's something I have a very difficult time with.


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There are plenty of other options out there that can fill that demand, although likely a large market space. You non-China approach as well as your history were the 2 strong things that brought me to PSA vs. Rythmik. Nothing against Brian, but if I have 2 options and one keeps more of my money here and they are both comparable options I tend to keep my money here. And I am not looking to start up "country of origin" debate, just my opinion. I know the US has made plenty of crappy products and Apple builds all their stuff in China.

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Old 08-23-2015, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Defcon View Post
Sadly it does seem to be the trend, I guess that's supply/demand at work. I wish some of these would show up on the used market.
My XV15se will more than likely end up for sale sometime in the future. But I'm not sure when. If it happens it will be a trade in and available through PSA.
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Old 08-23-2015, 10:41 AM
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They have come up on the used market. But a lot of people still hem and haw on the price. I had my XV15se listed for $595 shipped and most people were trying to beat me up on price so I finally just drove it to Tom and exchanged it.


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Originally Posted by gbreda View Post
Very true. bear123 had 2 for sale and it took a while for him to sell them.

IF you buy used, you still get the remainder of the 5 year warranty. Just have the seller contact PSA with your info.
That seems like a very good price esp if it was shipped since shipping would not be cheap on these monster subs I'll keep an eye out, are we talking the AVS classifieds forum or craigslist/ebay?
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Old 08-23-2015, 11:17 AM
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I shipped an OG xv15 with base plate. And it was 90$ to ship
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Old 08-23-2015, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Update on the XS15se,

I just did an inventory walk through in the warehouse and found 3 more XS15se cabinets. 2 are new, perfect, still bagged. I has a couple discolorations.

Anyone looking to grab a XS15se please jump into chat and I'll handle it. Thanks.

Tom V.
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Did you sell these? I will buy one if available.
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Old 08-23-2015, 11:55 AM
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OK, I spent a little time dialing in the dual V1800s before I sit down for some music listening and an evening of movies. One thing I did to help get the gain away form the bottom and to use a trick I read on these forums was I put an inline 12db attenuator to help with the almost 0 on the gain knob. It did seem to take about 10db off the subs. I re-ran Audyessy wihc of course is now complaining the subs were too low. So now I dials them in during Audy to 70db, which still has Audy complaining, but when all done Audy had the subs at -3.5db each, right around the rest of the speakers, perfect! Now I go into the AVE and set check all levels and using my RS SPL, they were all within .5db of each other, again perfect. I have learned to ignore the RS SPL for the sub even though it was showing 62db while the mains were showing 72db. I leave all the setting alone other than in the Denon setting overall bass/subs +6db.

I make some crossover adjustments based on what I have been playing with, I set the crossovers to all the rears/surrounds form 80 to 90Hz and all 3 front mains from 60 (center) and 40 (L/R) to 120Hz and have the AVR LFE LPF set to 150 or 200Hz.

Now time to run some REW numbers. All measurements taken at MLP within a few inches of Aduy measurements.

One thing I have been fighting is a dip from just over 50H to almost 85Hz. I start playing with the sub distances and realize they are cancelling each other out somehow in that range and find optimal setting for distance that levels this dip out and has me clean up past 130Hz, perfect for my 120Hz crossovers! I run some sweeps with the front 3 channels to make sure the transition is smooth and no cancellations and it is about as clean as I can get it in my room. You can see that in the before/after sweeps of the Duals with 17/16 for distance to 20/19.

REW sweeps at -10MV and -5 REW show 105DB and clean (under 10% THD) until you get below 18.5Hz. Also once you get over 110db the distortion climbs very rapidly, and while I know Tom's views on sweep test for distortion I would have preferred to see a bit less. At 0MV and -5REW the distortion at some frequencies is off the charts, but some of that I am sure is the room as it coincides with the spots that I have to tune to balance out the subs.

Just to see what this hits in real world listening I recorded the first minute of Edge of Tomorrow on REW SPL logger at my normal -10MV listening and looks like 110db easily with a peak of 119db!! From previous testing I know the dual V1800s added a little over 4db combined vs. single. Now that I have this all dialed in time to back up the Denon configs and get to some more critical music listening and movies.


So far if you have read my previous posts you will know how very impressed I am with the Dual V1800s and how they sound both musically and with movies. I think I am done with benchmarks for a while and will really begin to enjoy them as I feel they are about as dialed in as I can get them without a high end DSP in the mix. Not even sure a minidsp 2x4 would gain me much at this point.
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Old 08-23-2015, 02:58 PM
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All the sealed subs. Have a veneer option what about the vented subs?
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Old 08-24-2015, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
@Alan I like Red's idea as earlier posted, I ran across this on AVS, I don't if it would help or not, I'm fortunate as I've never had a problem with a ground loop problem with my Comcast cable.

Cable box causing hum. Need to fix?

I'm happy that you figured out the scratchy plugs, this should also be an easy fix as you already know it's the cable by unplugging at the outside source.

Cheers Jeffrey
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Originally Posted by Red99 View Post
You can get a noise isolator to take care of the ground loop issues which is a normal issue with cable. One like this should do the trick. http://www.amazon.com/TII-220-Ground...+loop+isolator
Google ground loop isolator on amazon and there should be a few choices.
Thanks guys, I just ordered the isolator from Amazon and expect it will fix me right up.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kluken View Post
OK, I spent a little time dialing in the dual V1800s before I sit down for some music listening and an evening of movies. One thing I did to help get the gain away form the bottom and to use a trick I read on these forums was I put an inline 12db attenuator to help with the almost 0 on the gain knob. It did seem to take about 10db off the subs. I re-ran Audyessy wihc of course is now complaining the subs were too low. So now I dials them in during Audy to 70db, which still has Audy complaining, but when all done Audy had the subs at -3.5db each, right around the rest of the speakers, perfect! Now I go into the AVE and set check all levels and using my RS SPL, they were all within .5db of each other, again perfect. I have learned to ignore the RS SPL for the sub even though it was showing 62db while the mains were showing 72db. I leave all the setting alone other than in the Denon setting overall bass/subs +6db.

I make some crossover adjustments based on what I have been playing with, I set the crossovers to all the rears/surrounds form 80 to 90Hz and all 3 front mains from 60 (center) and 40 (L/R) to 120Hz and have the AVR LFE LPF set to 150 or 200Hz.

Now time to run some REW numbers. All measurements taken at MLP within a few inches of Aduy measurements.

One thing I have been fighting is a dip from just over 50H to almost 85Hz. I start playing with the sub distances and realize they are cancelling each other out somehow in that range and find optimal setting for distance that levels this dip out and has me clean up past 130Hz, perfect for my 120Hz crossovers! I run some sweeps with the front 3 channels to make sure the transition is smooth and no cancellations and it is about as clean as I can get it in my room. You can see that in the before/after sweeps of the Duals with 17/16 for distance to 20/19.

REW sweeps at -10MV and -5 REW show 105DB and clean (under 10% THD) until you get below 18.5Hz. Also once you get over 110db the distortion climbs very rapidly, and while I know Tom's views on sweep test for distortion I would have preferred to see a bit less. At 0MV and -5REW the distortion at some frequencies is off the charts, but some of that I am sure is the room as it coincides with the spots that I have to tune to balance out the subs.

Just to see what this hits in real world listening I recorded the first minute of Edge of Tomorrow on REW SPL logger at my normal -10MV listening and looks like 110db easily with a peak of 119db!! From previous testing I know the dual V1800s added a little over 4db combined vs. single. Now that I have this all dialed in time to back up the Denon configs and get to some more critical music listening and movies.


So far if you have read my previous posts you will know how very impressed I am with the Dual V1800s and how they sound both musically and with movies. I think I am done with benchmarks for a while and will really begin to enjoy them as I feel they are about as dialed in as I can get them without a high end DSP in the mix. Not even sure a minidsp 2x4 would gain me much at this point.
Lookin' very good there, kluken!
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Old 08-24-2015, 02:11 PM
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All the sealed subs. Have a veneer option what about the vented subs?
Eventually we may offer the V1500 and V1800 in veneers. We just got the S1500s finished and now we're concentrating on the speakers. Towards the end of 2015 would likely be best case for the V1500/V1800 though. The process is a lot more time consuming that it may appear.

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Old 08-24-2015, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Eventually we may offer the V1500 and V1800 in veneers. We just got the S1500s finished and now we're concentrating on the speakers. Towards the end of 2015 would likely be best case for the V1500/V1800 though. The process is a lot more time consuming that it may appear.

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Power Sound Audio
I'm really stoked to see the speakers with a veneer option. I'm not too excited to see the price though

I wonder how difficult it'd be to use veneer on the V1800 with its rounded port at the bottom.
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Old 08-24-2015, 06:15 PM
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I know this has never come up and it's a moot point but I'm glad there are no plans for a veneer option on the V3600. I think it would do that beast a discredit. It's a beautiful mean looking sub with the standard finish (see Toe's recent pics for an example) and it has a sound that backs it up. I feel like a pretty veneer just wouldn't look right. Plus I can't imagine what that would cost.

But those veneers look absolutely beautiful on the other subs and I really look forward to seeing what they will look like on the speakers. Those veneers just may make it possible for me to get the 110s or 210s upstairs in the living room because my "I don't care about how speakers sound" wife even noticed how incredible the PSA speakers are and would like them upstairs. But they need to meet the aesthetic WAF first.
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Old 08-24-2015, 06:23 PM
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I disagree...A Cordovan Cherry v3600 would look stunning and mean all at the same time.
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Old 08-24-2015, 06:35 PM
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I disagree...A Cordovan Cherry v3600 would look stunning and mean all at the same time.
That's fine…we don't have to agree on everything, especially on something so subjective. I do agree though that it would look absolutely stunning.

Still, I can't imagine what that would cost to wrap that large of a sub in veneer.

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Old 08-24-2015, 07:56 PM
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Probably too much...If I had to guess it would drive the cost up to 2500.00 roughly.
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Old 08-25-2015, 07:33 AM
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Really thinking of overhauling my home theater. I've at least got the wife on board the new seating idea. Thinking I want to go with dual subs this round, probably sealed (S1500) for size purposes. Not exactly sure about the speakers yet. I was thinking a complete PSA system but my son might decide that he likes the bookshelves on the floor rather than on their stands.
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Old 08-25-2015, 08:34 AM
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Really thinking of overhauling my home theater. I've at least got the wife on board the new seating idea. Thinking I want to go with dual subs this round, probably sealed (S1500) for size purposes. Not exactly sure about the speakers yet. I was thinking a complete PSA system but my son might decide that he likes the bookshelves on the floor rather than on their stands.
I'm assuming you're referring to a youngster who may topple the speakers off the stand. If that is the case and your set up allows it I would consider using the the subs as stands, just allow the speakers to sit on the S1500s.

And I highly recommend the PSA speakers. If you are going to overhaul your HT I would definitely go with the PSA speakers.
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Old 08-25-2015, 08:56 AM
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I'm assuming you're referring to a youngster who may topple the speakers off the stand. If that is the case and your set up allows it I would consider using the the subs as stands, just allow the speakers to sit on the S1500s.

And I highly recommend the PSA speakers. If you are going to overhaul your HT I would definitely go with the PSA speakers.
This x 100! However, I think the S3000i or taller would be a better stand and get the horns at ear-height. Unless you're sitting on the floor or are a dwarf, only then the S1500 would work. Plus, the no-vibrations benefits of opposed drivers in the S3000i cab may fare better long-term versus a single driver. I opted for these stands for my MTM-210 and have zero regrets. (they are recommended by PSA as they meet the weight requirements and have a large top platform) Though they are sturdy and weighted well, I do not have kids, but if I did, I would get a sandbag, put it in the tube before putting the top platform on, fill it with sand the best I could, and then put the top platform on with the screws. That should help tremendously with the kid "problem".

Also, be sure to stop in the PSA Speaker Thread for more treats, measurements, thoughts and offerings from other owners as this one is more geared toward the subwoofers from PSA.

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Old 08-25-2015, 10:58 AM
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You can also consider stands from these two companies too. They can customize things to suit any type of stability needs you'll require.

http://www.aandmcustomsteelspeakerstands.com/

http://www.gwizpro.com/stands/

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Old 08-25-2015, 11:35 AM
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Ya, my son has already knocked one of my Klipsch surrounds off the stand. They're pretty solid but it still marked it up pretty good.

Thanks for the links, Tom. I'll take a look at those.
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Old 08-25-2015, 12:20 PM
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You can also consider stands from these two companies too. They can customize things to suit any type of stability needs you'll require.

http://www.aandmcustomsteelspeakerstands.com/

http://www.gwizpro.com/stands/

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
I had A&M (the first link) custom cut a stand for an XS30 sub. Actually it was their amp stand, Design A-2, on their website. I had them make the dimensions of the stand to match the XS30 with 2" legs and spikes. Not exactly cheap in price (like the foam inserts from the original XS30 box that I was using), but it melds perfectly and looks great, like it's part of the sub. Took about 2 weeks to complete and a few days for shipping.

Was also going to use A&M for a pair of 210's, but I couldn't decide on a tilt or level stand. I ended up with a pair of Sanus cast iron 22" stands, but those stands at gwizpro.com look really good too, though more expensive after pricing all the options.

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Originally Posted by oshia86 View Post
Ya, my son has already knocked one of my Klipsch surrounds off the stand. They're pretty solid but it still marked it up pretty good.

Thanks for the links, Tom. I'll take a look at those.
I did see on A&M's website that they have "childproof" stands.
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Old 08-25-2015, 12:28 PM
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Hi Kluken,

Per your inquiry on the V1800 production/sales numbers here are a few shots of the shop today. Note that the V1800s current being assembled are *not* the ones already boxed of course..

So that's 25-30 total(built-n-boxed or being built today). The bad news is these are all sold and any new orders will take about 2 weeks to ship.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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Old 08-25-2015, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Hi Kluken,

Per your inquiry on the V1800 production/sales numbers here are a few shots of the shop today. Note that the V1800s current being assembled are *not* the ones already boxed of course..

So that's 25-30 total(built-n-boxed or being built today). The bad news is these are all sold and any new orders will take about 2 weeks to ship.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
I still find it amazing that there are THAT many people (just buying psa. Nevermind all the purchase of other Id subs) that are paying 1000$ or more for subs for their HT or living room. I don't know a single person other than me and those on AVS. And al my friends think I'm cra cra

Yet sales are through the roof. Who are these people? Hahah
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Old 08-25-2015, 02:44 PM
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Talking I am in love with my PSA XS15SE

Man, i am so glad that i went with PSA.Everyday that i use my sub i have a big grin on my face
Thanks Tom
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Old 08-25-2015, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
I still find it amazing that there are THAT many people (just buying psa. Nevermind all the purchase of other Id subs) that are paying 1000$ or more for subs for their HT or living room. I don't know a single person other than me and those on AVS. And al my friends think I'm cra cra

Yet sales are through the roof. Who are these people? Hahah
I'm not sure what the sales figures are for non-ID speaker companies, but I'm sure its a couple magnitudes order higher, and their prices are much higher as well. If AVS is anything like other tech forums, it represents a tiny fraction of the potential market, though its certainly higher for ID companies.

And more sales is good, we want extreme sales, that's what leads to price drops and sales
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Old 08-25-2015, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Defcon View Post
I'm not sure what the sales figures are for non-ID speaker companies, but I'm sure its a couple magnitudes order higher, and their prices are much higher as well. If AVS is anything like other tech forums, it represents a tiny fraction of the potential market, though its certainly higher for ID companies.

And more sales is good, we want extreme sales, that's what leads to price drops and sales
Oh I agree. Just find it kind boggling how many of these awesome subs and speakers are out in the real world.
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Old 08-25-2015, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
I still find it amazing that there are THAT many people (just buying psa. Nevermind all the purchase of other Id subs) that are paying 1000$ or more for subs for their HT or living room. I don't know a single person other than me and those on AVS. And al my friends think I'm cra cra

Yet sales are through the roof. Who are these people? Hahah
Yea the members on this forum sure seem to be a minority (I don't have too many audio minded friends). I would argue though that getting good sound has never been so affordable. If you look at a sub like PSA's v1800 for $1299, what would there be at that price point to compete with 10 years ago? These ID companies seem to be really pushing the limits of what's possible within "accessible" price points.
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