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post #24001 of 32221 Old 11-12-2015, 06:32 AM
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Jeff is using an Onkyo TX-NR1010. He can click on his set-up button on his remote and go to AUDIO and he will be able to switch between Music ( FLAT ) and Movie ( reference ) mode on the fly.
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post #24002 of 32221 Old 11-12-2015, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by murphy_5 View Post
Hi, guys I need a little help here. I just got my PSA XS15se, and I'm feeling frustrated with my setup in our new house. So my room is 16' x 24' x 8' / slightly irregular, with steps that lead to up stairs. For the life of me I can't get the loudest sound at the seated position. It is crazy loud at the back of the room on both right and left corners. The front corners are loud as well, but very little output in the middle. I have tried room crawls putting the sub in listening position and marking the best spots. It's always the 4 corners with the RR being the loudest followed by the LR, LF, RF. I have re-ran audyssey played with every variable I know how to do. This is not my first time setting up gear but this is a different house to me. Now I would just put the sub in the RR but that is a non carpeted area with a door right in front of it. The LR is where the steps lead up stairs. So no go on those two any other ideas?
you will never get the loudest bass in the middle of the room. that is normally the biggest cancellation spot.

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post #24003 of 32221 Old 11-12-2015, 08:42 AM
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Alan. Alan. Alan! Alaaaaaaaaan!!!!!

(if anybody here is also an Archer fan... )
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Yippee-ki-yay...
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post #24004 of 32221 Old 11-12-2015, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
Alan.......We need an update..........
Quote:
Originally Posted by cesar123 View Post
Alan. Alan. Alan! Alaaaaaaaaan!!!!!

(if anybody here is also an Archer fan... )
Sorry guys, the S3000 finally showed up around 3:30pm and I spent the next hour and a half trying to integrate it...then the wife came home.

Anyways, initial impressions are not all that favorable;

Getting ready for the S3000, I moved my the one T-18 from the rear to the front right corner so now there is one in each front corner. I didn't re-run Audyssey or measure the response, but I did connect the two front subs to the same sub out so I figured I was close with Audyssey.

While waiting for FedEx to show up, I sat and listened to the system in that config...I was astonished how good it sounded! Before when I had tried both T-18s up front, I had just measured the response and said "well, THAT ain't gonna sound good" and moved one in back. Boy, was I wrong...it sounds great! Believe it or not, I actually had more tactile feedback than with the T-18 directly behind my chair.

Anyways, I was then really excited about the S3000...I mean, if it sounds this good with just the two T-18s, adding the S3000 is just going to be pure bliss, right?

Wrong.

I wasn't that impressed after adding the S3000. First, I put it directly behind my chair...and I got this pre-Audyssey:




I was disappointed to say the least. So I tried the S3000 all along the back wall and the back left corner looked the best pre-Audyssey:




And after Audyssey:





Then, I gave it a listen. It was just barely better than with just the 2 T-18s up front...with some material, I actually think it sounded worse. WTF?

So, I turned off the S3000 and measured just the T-18s. I didn't save the measurement, but it basically looked exactly like the graph above with the S3000 behind my chair. Post-Audyssey, it looks pretty flat except for a very narrow but very deep dip around 60hz.

Maybe I just need to put REW away and trust my ears.

Long story short...I've got more work to do, but the S3000 may be going back.
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post #24005 of 32221 Old 11-12-2015, 09:11 AM
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post #24006 of 32221 Old 11-12-2015, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Sorry guys, the S3000 finally showed up around 3:30pm and I spent the next hour and a half trying to integrate it...then the wife came home.

Anyways, initial impressions are not all that favorable;

Getting ready for the S3000, I moved my the one T-18 from the rear to the front right corner so now there is one in each front corner. I didn't re-run Audyssey or measure the response, but I did connect the two front subs to the same sub out so I figured I was close with Audyssey.

While waiting for FedEx to show up, I sat and listened to the system in that config...I was astonished how good it sounded! Before when I had tried both T-18s up front, I had just measured the response and said "well, THAT ain't gonna sound good" and moved one in back. Boy, was I wrong...it sounds great! Believe it or not, I actually had more tactile feedback than with the T-18 directly behind my chair.

Anyways, I was then really excited about the S3000...I mean, if it sounds this good with just the two T-18s, adding the S3000 is just going to be pure bliss, right?

Wrong.

I wasn't that impressed after adding the S3000. First, I put it directly behind my chair...and I got this pre-Audyssey:




I was disappointed to say the least. So I tried the S3000 all along the back wall and the back left corner looked the best pre-Audyssey:




And after Audyssey:





Then, I gave it a listen. It was just barely better than with just the 2 T-18s up front...with some material, I actually think it sounded worse. WTF?

So, I turned off the S3000 and measured just the T-18s. I didn't save the measurement, but it basically looked exactly like the graph above with the S3000 behind my chair. Post-Audyssey, it looks pretty flat except for a very narrow but very deep dip around 60hz.

Maybe I just need to put REW away and trust my ears.

Long story short...I've got more work to do, but the S3000 may be going back.
Maybe a S3600I may help

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post #24007 of 32221 Old 11-12-2015, 09:51 AM
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Maybe a S3600I may help
It's not an issue of headroom, it's an issue of frequency response. My room just plain sucks.
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post #24008 of 32221 Old 11-12-2015, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
It's not an issue of headroom, it's an issue of frequency response. My room just plain sucks.
I'm not really seeing an issue with your graphs after Audy does its thing. If you decide to return the S3000i then you can put those funds into room treatments. You may need to come to the conclusion that the room is what it is and just sit back and enjoy your killer system.
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post #24009 of 32221 Old 11-12-2015, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
I'm not really seeing an issue with your graphs after Audy does its thing. If you decide to return the S3000i then you can put those funds into room treatments. You may need to come to the conclusion that the room is what it is and just sit back and enjoy your killer system.
My thoughts exactly Mike.

I've been planning on getting some treatments for quite awhile now, I've just been waiting until I settle on a final configuration with the subs so I know where the treatments can be placed. Maybe some bass traps will take care of that 60hz dip (along with other benefits).

I think it comes down to this - I can't really justify the cost of the S3000 after listening to both T-18s up front...it just sounded soooo good. Unless I can do some tweaking and get much more of an improvement with the additional sub, I think I've reached the point of diminishing returns.
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post #24010 of 32221 Old 11-12-2015, 10:50 AM
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Unless you're up for some DIY acoustic treatments, Alan, I'd highly recommend GIK Acoustics.

They have some free-standing treatments as well.

Let the wife pick the colors!
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post #24011 of 32221 Old 11-12-2015, 11:09 AM
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Unless you're up for some DIY acoustic treatments, Alan, I'd highly recommend GIK Acoustics.

They have some free-standing treatments as well.

Let the wife pick the colors!
GIK is who I've been looking at. The 244s for the front and side walls/corners and Tri-traps in the back corners.

I'm kind of torn on colors. All of our window coverings are "chocolate" brown so I'm not sure if I want to go the same color for the traps, or get some in one color and some in a color that will accent.

I can fit one 244 in each front corner, four on the front wall and two on the side wall. Then the two Tri-traps in each of the rear corners. Total comes to just about $1000, a bit under the price of the S3000.
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post #24012 of 32221 Old 11-12-2015, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
GIK is who I've been looking at. The 244s for the front and side walls/corners and Tri-traps in the back corners.

I'm kind of torn on colors. All of our window coverings are "chocolate" brown so I'm not sure if I want to go the same color for the traps, or get some in one color and some in a color that will accent.

I can fit one 244 in each front corner, four on the front wall and two on the side wall. Then the two Tri-traps in each of the rear corners. Total comes to just about $1000, a bit under the price of the S3000.
Booyah and shoot @myfipie a PM, if you need.

I love my dual S3000i, but man oh man, I can only imagine what the T-18 is like! I still think you should put a futon mattress on top of your dual T-18s and watch a movie while sitting on them... just for the kicks! And shakes, of course.
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post #24013 of 32221 Old 11-12-2015, 11:28 AM
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GIK is who I've been looking at. The 244s for the front and side walls/corners and Tri-traps in the back corners.

I'm kind of torn on colors. All of our window coverings are "chocolate" brown so I'm not sure if I want to go the same color for the traps, or get some in one color and some in a color that will accent.

I can fit one 244 in each front corner, four on the front wall and two on the side wall. Then the two Tri-traps in each of the rear corners. Total comes to just about $1000, a bit under the price of the S3000.
That sound like pretty nice plan to me. If you do need help with set up you can always contact us through our online form. It asks you a bunch of questions and helps us guide you a bit better. Here is the link.
http://www.gikacoustics.com/acoustic-advice-form/
BTW if you are unsure about colors you can always email me and I will have Christina send you out samples. Here is the emails for contact.
http://www.gikacoustics.com/contact/
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post #24014 of 32221 Old 11-12-2015, 11:48 AM
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@Murphy, try moving forward and backward and side to side of your MLP, physically walk around those areas of your MLP and see if it gets louder in any of those locations as you move around. I'm thinking you're sitting in a huge null as I would imagine your seating is somewhere in the middle of that 24' room length. I could be way off track here, give it try and see what happens.

Yeah the best spot I could find doing this was the RF 1/4 of the room. I sit about 10ft from the front wall. It's crazy the amout of null in this area. Like I said where my dining table is in the non carpeted area it hurts it's so loud but very minimal at the MLP.

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post #24015 of 32221 Old 11-12-2015, 11:55 AM
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I'm about to start watching movies at the dining room table lol
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post #24016 of 32221 Old 11-12-2015, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by myfipie View Post
That sound like pretty nice plan to me. If you do need help with set up you can always contact us through our online form. It asks you a bunch of questions and helps us guide you a bit better. Here is the link.
http://www.gikacoustics.com/acoustic-advice-form/
BTW if you are unsure about colors you can always email me and I will have Christina send you out samples. Here is the emails for contact.
http://www.gikacoustics.com/contact/
Thanks Glen!

Already got the fabric samples a few months ago.

Heading over to the form right now!
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post #24017 of 32221 Old 11-12-2015, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
GIK is who I've been looking at. The 244s for the front and side walls/corners and Tri-traps in the back corners.

I'm kind of torn on colors. All of our window coverings are "chocolate" brown so I'm not sure if I want to go the same color for the traps, or get some in one color and some in a color that will accent.

I can fit one 244 in each front corner, four on the front wall and two on the side wall. Then the two Tri-traps in each of the rear corners. Total comes to just about $1000, a bit under the price of the S3000.
Alan, I'm starting to look at this as well. I think it's time to move into room treatments and I have been lurking around the treatment thread trying to pick up information because I'm clueless when it comes to room treatments.

I've pretty much decided I'm going with GIK but I really need to figure out what the different types of treatment are, what they do, where to use them etc. SIGH... Looks like it's time to take on another huge learning curve.
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post #24018 of 32221 Old 11-12-2015, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post
Music = Flat

Movies = House curve or Reference

Onkyo?

I thought so, yes Onkyo TX-NR1010 with XT32 SUB EQ..............
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post #24019 of 32221 Old 11-12-2015, 12:12 PM
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Alan…that video of the Prairie Dogs is hilarious.
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post #24020 of 32221 Old 11-12-2015, 12:13 PM
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I thought so, yes Onkyo TX-NR1010 with XT32 SUB EQ..............
JEFF!!!!!! Good to see you back positing again. I hope all is well.
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post #24021 of 32221 Old 11-12-2015, 12:16 PM
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Jeff,
Which Onkyo do you have. In my receiver, when going into audio, I go into the Audy section, which is set to XT32. I then can highlight that option, and then select Audy flat. Hope this helps.
Russ, as stated earlier I have an Onkyo TX-NR1010 XT32 SUB EQ, just go into the Audy menu and select flat. I didn't even know I could do that, I don't read manuals.......
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post #24022 of 32221 Old 11-12-2015, 12:38 PM
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JEFF!!!!!! Good to see you back positing again. I hope all is well.
Thanks Jim, good to be back. I got some family issues straightened out and then I got sick, so hopefully I can spend some time here with my friends. Thanks again for the well wishes my friend.
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post #24023 of 32221 Old 11-12-2015, 12:48 PM
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^^ like you, I found it is more open sound and cleaner with dyneq off. I don't know why it causes your sub more localize. At -20 to -25MV, you are used to the tremendous bass boost with dyneq and therefore feel it less impact with ulf without dyneq. As I mentioned, bump up your sub trim another db or two or even better add a +8db lowshelf (what I have) and all of your bass is coming back along with clear and open sound top end without dyneq. By the way, I prefer Aud flat with dyneq off. Have you tried?
Hey Tony, I got all of what your saying with DEQ on and the big boost at the lower end, can you be a little more specific with how and where you add the low shelf 8 dB boost to create the deeper bass with the clean top end W/O DEQ. Thanks, I want to try this.
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post #24024 of 32221 Old 11-12-2015, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
Jeff is using an Onkyo TX-NR1010. He can click on his set-up button on his remote and go to AUDIO and he will be able to switch between Music ( FLAT ) and Movie ( reference ) mode on the fly.
Thanks Mike, I knew I could use the setup button on the fly with speaker and sub trim levels but didn't notice the flat and music Audy settings, thanks again, learn something new everyday here.
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post #24025 of 32221 Old 11-12-2015, 01:09 PM
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JEFF!!!!!! Good to see you back positing again. I hope all is well.
Jeffs back!!!!!!!!!

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post #24026 of 32221 Old 11-12-2015, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by murphy_5 View Post
Yeah the best spot I could find doing this was the RF 1/4 of the room. I sit about 10ft from the front wall. It's crazy the amout of null in this area. Like I said where my dining table is in the non carpeted area it hurts it's so loud but very minimal at the MLP.
I'm assuming your subs are in the RF and LR corners, if not correct me. I had issues similar to yours, my room is 27' long and my LP was right in the middle of the room. Cancellation ran a muck, strange thing though I measured 3-4 feet to the left of the LP and 3-4' to the right and had tremendous output at both of those positions. It was a difference of 15-20 dB.

I had to move my subs and or LP to at least get an even output across all of the LP. Then the insanity started as I thought it sounded pretty good to me until I bought a laptop and UMIK-1 and began the trip down the rabbit hole..

So move one sub at a time and use a SPL meter to get the loudest output at your LP, now move the other and measure again, hopefully you will see a 4-6dB increase in output over the single sub. Try adjusting the delay of one sub and measure and see what you come up if you're not getting a 4-6 dB increase with both subs turned on. Let us know what happens.

I hope this can get you started as you said you had the loudest output at 1/4 wall placement, it's quite obvious you have cancellation issues that need resolved by moving LP or subs or getting more subs....
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post #24027 of 32221 Old 11-12-2015, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Hey Tony, I got all of what your saying with DEQ on and the big boost at the lower end, can you be a little more specific with how and where you add the low shelf 8 dB boost to create the deeper bass with the clean top end W/O DEQ. Thanks, I want to try this.
I use jriver dsp from my htpc to add lowshelf filter. A minidsp can do that as well. The clean top end is from disable dyneq. Aud flat (Denon) or Aud music (Onkyo) does not roll off the high frequency where as Aud reference (Denon) or Aud movie (Onkyo) does.
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post #24028 of 32221 Old 11-12-2015, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
I use jriver dsp from my htpc to add lowshelf filter. A minidsp can do that as well. The clean top end is from disable dyneq. Aud flat (Denon) or Aud music (Onkyo) does not roll off the high frequency where as Aud reference (Denon) or Aud movie (Onkyo) does.
Thanks Tony that makes sense. I really need to find the time to break out my NIB miniDSP that's just collecting dust. How's the learning curve with that?
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post #24029 of 32221 Old 11-12-2015, 03:26 PM
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Yeah Mike, that's what I've been doing lately, trying to keep up with all the requests for new youtube videos from all of my fans, I have some free time now until the next tour so I'll be hanging out here for a while................
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post #24030 of 32221 Old 11-13-2015, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I think it comes down to this - I can't really justify the cost of the S3000 after listening to both T-18s up front...it just sounded soooo good. Unless I can do some tweaking and get much more of an improvement with the additional sub, I think I've reached the point of diminishing returns.
Just a little update....last night I moved the S3000 from the right rear corner to in between our two recliners (acting as an end table*). Having the sub right next to my chair made it very easy to access the controls and dial in the gain, crossover and delay (haven't re-ran XT32 yet). So far, I think this is the ticket! Sounds great and zero localization. I need to get REW out tonight though and see where I'm at.


*To @basshead81 and anyone else using subs as end tables - I'm sort of terrified of something getting spilled on the sub...I know the finish can take just about anything, but I'm worried about the grills, drivers and amp.

I just KNOW a beer mug or water jug will eventually get knocked over on top of the sub...what are you guys doing to limit the liability of such an incident??
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