Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 811 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 11-23-2015, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
I would match the sub amp crossover with the highest crossover setting on the speakers. So if the center is set 100hz, set the sub amp at 100hz.
Thanks I'm playing around with it now and already a difference and that's with no Audyssey engaged to determine the best crossover setting. In theory with the mains set to 60hz the AVR shouldn't send out anything over 60hz to the sub signal, is this correct? Also the doubling? is it from say 24 to 48? or 36 on the octave slope?
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Old 11-23-2015, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
There is nothing wrong with cascading crossovers if done how Tuvong explains it. Bill F has also mentioned doing this several times in the past.

@Bill Fitzmaurice

Can you confirm this please? Thanks
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Old 11-24-2015, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post
@Bill Fitzmaurice

Can you confirm this please? Thanks
Not Bill, but I have read his posts mentioning what Basshead said a number of times. See post #77 - Happy Thanksgiving all.

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Old 11-24-2015, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post
Thanks I'm playing around with it now and already a difference and that's with no Audyssey engaged to determine the best crossover setting. In theory with the mains set to 60hz the AVR shouldn't send out anything over 60hz to the sub signal, is this correct? Also the doubling? is it from say 24 to 48? or 36 on the octave slope?
The xover is not a brick wall so there are always 'leakage' on sub and speakers. Most if not all Avr has a 12db slope. I do not know what psa sub has (12db or more if I have to guess), so basically you will double the slope on the sub end (24db min) per octave on the slope.
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Old 11-24-2015, 08:01 AM
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Ooops! Sorry for spreading misinformation! Guess I should crack open that manual, huh?
It's just one of those either/or situations. If we label them LEFT and RIGHT I get a 1000 questions about the right connection since many receiver manuals and third party *zines* suggest using the LFE input on the sub. If we label them as we have, then it isn't an unreasonable assumption to think the LFE input does bypass everything but the gain control as that is sometimes the case with other brands.

As long as the controls are set properly there's not much benefit in bypassing everything with the LFE input so it's not high on our list of "to do" at the moment..

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Old 11-24-2015, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
To try and reduce voices coming through the subs when watching TV and still be able to use a 80 crossover point. Doubling up crossovers(better known as cascading) doubles up the octave slope, so frequencies above the crossover point are filtered out better. It seems to be working well...I tried this a couple years ago and thought it worked good, but switched it back to the standard method because that is what everybody tends to recommend. I believe this was when I was all fascinated with getting a fancy looking REW graph and ignoring what my ears told me sounded good. I can use 60hz on the AVR and it sounds good, but I lose a little mid bass slam compared to 80. Just trying to find that balance per say.
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Thanks I'm playing around with it now and already a difference and that's with no Audyssey engaged to determine the best crossover setting. In theory with the mains set to 60hz the AVR shouldn't send out anything over 60hz to the sub signal, is this correct? Also the doubling? is it from say 24 to 48? or 36 on the octave slope?
Well Dang… Now I will have to give this a try. Looks like a fun little experiment. And the best part is I don't have to re-run Audyssey.
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Old 11-24-2015, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
It's just one of those either/or situations. If we label them LEFT and RIGHT I get a 1000 questions about the right connection since many receiver manuals and third party *zines* suggest using the LFE input on the sub. If we label them as we have, then it isn't an unreasonable assumption to think the LFE input does bypass everything but the gain control as that is sometimes the case with other brands.

As long as the controls are set properly there's not much benefit in bypassing everything with the LFE input so it's not high on our list of "to do" at the moment..

Tom V.
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On my old Mirage BPS400 the LFE input bypassed everything even the gain control. I would have to adjust the subwoofer LFE level ( not sub trims ) in my old Classe pre-pro to calibrate the sub to hit the target 75-80dbs I was trying to achieve. I'm glad PSA decided not to go that route.
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Old 11-24-2015, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post
I have always heard/read that it was bad to employ 2 crossovers at the same frequency in the signal chain.

Maybe @Tom Vodhanel can clarify for us, or someone else.

I can't remember off the top of my head why, but I remember it causing some issues.

Edit:

From Chris K @ Audyssey:

You shouldn't be setting any filter on the sub as it ends up interfering with proper bass management that is best done in the AVR. The filters on the back of the sub should either be turned off or you should use an input that bypasses them. Please take a look here (below) for more subwoofer setup tips.


&

Many powered subwoofers have controls that are set manually. It's important to follow some simple guidelines to avoid having these controls interfere with proper subwoofer calibration and integration with the satellite speakers.

If the subwoofer provides a direct input (sometimes called LFE input) then it should always be used. That input bypasses the filters in the subwoofer and allows the bass management system in the AV Receiver to operate properly
If there is no direct input, then the lowpass filter knob on the subwoofer should be permanently set to the highest frequency it allows. That way it will not interfere with the MultEQ measurements and bass management.
Using 2 crossovers together at the same frequency point will result in a 6db loss, example at 80hz you would now be at -6 at 80hz compared to -3 at 80hz with just 1 crossover in the chain.

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Old 11-24-2015, 03:07 PM
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I've been wondering that for a few days now. I don't ever remember seeing him post about his dual S3000's. After today I'm almost half worried he's been banned as well.
Nope, I'm still here! Sorry work was crazy the last month or so, been on the road a bunch and too busy to do much with my theater. I sincerely appreciate the concern, I really like you guys the best of any AVS Section.

I meant to report back guys, sorry. The S3000is were terrific for movies, but in my room, with my setup not what I was looking for music, so they are headed back. Loved their fit and finish, loved the amp controls on the side, but like I said for my room, not quite what I wanted. I think dual V3600s like yours would have been terrific, but I do not have openings large enough in my proscenium to fit them through.

Love Tom, love me some PSA, but this go round, I'm gonna look for different subs. You'll see me again one day.

Take care gang!
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Old 11-24-2015, 03:23 PM
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Nope, I'm still here! Sorry work was crazy the last month or so, been on the road a bunch and too busy to do much with my theater. I sincerely appreciate the concern, I really like you guys the best of any AVS Section.

I meant to report back guys, sorry. The S3000is were terrific for movies, but in my room, with my setup not what I was looking for music, so they are headed back. Loved their fit and finish, loved the amp controls on the side, but like I said for my room, not quite what I wanted. I think dual V3600s like yours would have been terrific, but I do not have openings large enough in my proscenium to fit them through.

Love Tom, love me some PSA, but this go round, I'm gonna look for different subs. You'll see me again one day.

Take care gang!
If they had enough output for movies then they " should ' of had the output for music too. Do you have room for a pair of S3600I's?

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Old 11-24-2015, 03:40 PM
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^^ I don't think output is what he concerns, it's a type of music sound production that didn't do for him from what I read from his post. Unless the 3600 has different sound characteristic, it probably won't help him.

Last edited by tvuong; 11-24-2015 at 03:46 PM.
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Old 11-24-2015, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post
If they had enough output for movies then they " should ' of had the output for music too. Do you have room for a pair of S3600I's?
We just couldn't get them dialed in for his specific environment. I think an all FF design would have worked a bit better so the S3600i may not have really improved things. Maybe if we had a S1800 he could have stacked a pair on each side..

Anyway, John and I go WAY back so it was just very cool catching up with him in our chat sessions. The S3000i sale was never a priority for our chats just something that kinda happened so their is certainly no hard feelings or anything like that. He's moving to dual F25s iirc so he is in very good hands and the FF orientation is probably a good idea.

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Old 11-24-2015, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
We just couldn't get them dialed in for his specific environment. I think an all FF design would have worked a bit better so the S3600i may not have really improved things. Maybe if we had a S1800 he could have stacked a pair on each side..

Anyway, John and I go WAY back so it was just very cool catching up with him in our chat sessions. The S3000i sale was never a priority for our chats just something that kinda happened so their is certainly no hard feelings or anything like that. He's moving to dual F25s iirc so he is in very good hands and the FF orientation is probably a good idea.

Tom V.
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I was looking at the F25s myself before I decided to go with PSA. I wish John well with his future purchase.

Maybe a custom F3000I or F3600I would suite him well. Just joking.

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Last edited by Mike Butny; 11-24-2015 at 04:07 PM.
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Old 11-24-2015, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ I don't think output is what he concerns, it's a type of music sound production that didn't do for him from what I read from his post. Unless the 3600 has different sound characteristic, it probably won't help him.
At first I though his post was a typo as EVERYONE raves about the S3000's music performance so I " assumed" it had to do with output.

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Old 11-24-2015, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
We just couldn't get them dialed in for his specific environment. I think an all FF design would have worked a bit better so the S3600i may not have really improved things. Maybe if we had a S1800 he could have stacked a pair on each side..

Anyway, John and I go WAY back so it was just very cool catching up with him in our chat sessions. The S3000i sale was never a priority for our chats just something that kinda happened so their is certainly no hard feelings or anything like that. He's moving to dual F25s iirc so he is in very good hands and the FF orientation is probably a good idea.

Tom V.
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Tom, you are the best, I've learned a lot from talking and chatting with you and I won't forget that.

Guys, I would have loved to have tried dual V3600's but they simply will not fit for me. I sincerely appreciate all the kind words and thoughts, and like I said this is my favorite AVS Forum, I'll keep checking in from time to time.

Take care gang!
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Old 11-24-2015, 05:42 PM
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Tom, you are the best, I've learned a lot from talking and chatting with you and I won't forget that.

Guys, I would have loved to have tried dual V3600's but they simply will not fit for me. I sincerely appreciate all the kind words and thoughts, and like I said this is my favorite AVS Forum, I'll keep checking in from time to time.

Take care gang!
I'm sorry to hear that it didn't work out for you but that's the beauty of the 30 day return, you can try something out in your room with no risk. I hope you find the sub that works in your HT soon.

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Old 11-25-2015, 04:16 AM
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I'm sorry to hear that it didn't work out for you but that's the beauty of the 30 day return, you can try something out in your room with no risk. I hope you find the sub that works in your HT soon.
Thanks Hop!

Picking new subs is BY FAR the most difficult thing I've ever tried to select for my HT, maybe the toughest overall!

The beauty of ID equipment is also it's weakness. There is virtually no way to audition a product short of buying it and installing it in your home. For a small piece of electronics, no big deal. When something weighs over 125 lbs, has an extensive setup and installation, plus unusual shipping requirements, it becomes a huge deal! A commitment in time and money before you can even begin your evaluation!!

With ID companies service and support become as important as the product itself. This is where Tom V is second to none....

Anyhow I'm close to getting my HT settled again, I hope to be satisfied for at least a few years.

Take care.
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Old 11-25-2015, 04:29 PM
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Do most leave grill on or off? Anyone measured - any difference in sound?
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Old 11-25-2015, 06:39 PM
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I've always left them on my subs as for measurements I've focused on things that make a difference
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Old 11-25-2015, 07:56 PM
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Do most leave grill on or off? Anyone measured - any difference in sound?
If removing the grills made any difference in the sound at all I'd say Tom and Jim have some work to do.
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Old 11-25-2015, 08:09 PM
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Do most leave grill on or off? Anyone measured - any difference in sound?
Methinks you've got a bad case of Audiophilia Nervosa!

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Old 11-25-2015, 10:17 PM
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Hey all, proud new owner of a V1800, and my first time posting. I've read most of the PSA forums. First let me say thanks Tom V. for this wonderfully crafted piece of equipment at this price point and made in the USA (incredible really). The V1800 is in an entirely different league than my previous sub (PC12-Plus) that I thought was a considerable step up from big box store one note wonders. There's some great info on these forums from some obviously brilliant people whose posts have helped me in my decision making as well so a thanks to anyone this may include. I moved earlier this year a couple months after buying my last sub and my room size at least doubled. I'm now in 4780^3 ft of open vaulted space not including 3 large entry ways/hallway that absolutely swallowed my PC12-Plus. I considered trading the only 10 month old PC12-Plus up to an ultra before researching other options...thankfully I did not waste the nearly $800 with shipping for a marginal improvement. I watched Toy Story with my son earlier and even at just -25db MV on the receiver I was blown away at how explosive and yet precise this sub is. At 28 minutes in when Sid blows up a g.i. Joe with an M-80 firework my boy, who's four, just looked at me in shock and said "that was awesome, what was that?" It was then I knew this will bring us smiles for many years to come. To think that when/if I order another V1800 for duals next year that they cost nearly the same as a PC12-Plus is absolutely mind blowing to me. After just one full movie and a few other demos, I can only imagine the value of its big brother V3600! We're 85/15 movies, music and I can't wait to tweak things further over the holidays.
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Old 11-26-2015, 07:09 AM
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Good morning to all. Here in the states it's a good day to hang out with family, over indulge in great food and watch lots of football. But as for me, when I get tired of football I'm going to throw in a great movie and let the PSA subs and speakers bring joy to the whole family.

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone.


P.S. Tom and Jim…..Please tell me you're not working today.

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Old 11-26-2015, 08:23 AM
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Hey all, proud new owner of a V1800, and my first time posting. To think that when/if I order another V1800 for duals next year that they cost nearly the same as a PC12-Plus is absolutely mind blowing to me. After just one full movie and a few other demos, I can only imagine the value of its big brother V3600! We're 85/15 movies, music and I can't wait to tweak things further over the holidays.
Welcome to PSA and my world, just a few months ahead of you. My biggest regret is not buying a PSA sub a year ago when I bought my Plus. Nothing against SVS, I've owned a few, but there is no comparison between what Tom is making and the rather stagnet lineup offered by SVS. Hopefully I can sell my PC Plus eventually and add another V1800. I would also encourage you to spend some time listening to music. The V1800 is something special in the department.
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Ascend Acoustics Sierra 2s F/R & Horizon w/ RAAL Center; Sierra 1s Surrounds; DefTech PM1000s Fronts & Top Middle w/ PSB S5 Rear Surrounds; PSA v1800 & SVS PC12+ Subs
Oppo 103; Onkyo HD-DVD; Apple TV & Roku/Fire Sticks
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Old 11-26-2015, 08:53 AM
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Happy thanksgiving to you as well Hop, and the rest of the AV and PSA family! food, football, and a flick. sounds good to me too!
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Old 11-26-2015, 10:49 AM
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Thumbs up

Happy Thanksgiving!

I will be trying my two new additions over this weekend, but so far they have found their way nicely into my HT setup.

Attached you can find some impressions upon receipt & unpacking. I'm not done yet setting them up - currently, they reside in a small kick-out behind the main listening position, which did suite my HSU very well.

Maybe I'll end up putting them left & right next to the TV since they are quite a bit shorter than the HSU - is there a recommendation to the most ideal setup?

Another question to the pro's here:
Should I try on both possible positions the Anti-Mode or only at the final position for the subs?

Thanks and stay tuned,

Kevin

PS: everybody tells me we have a large dog, but it is all about perspective I guess ;-)
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Onkyo TX-NR929 | Emotiva XPA-5 | PSA MTM-210T | PSA-MTM210C | Paradigm in-wall | 2x PSA V1800 | AM 8033-SII
Samsung 55" LED | Apple-TV | PS3 | Network stuff | Understanding & forgiving GF - priceless!
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Old 11-26-2015, 11:02 AM
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^ Your dog is big but your subs are bigger.

Personally I would just run antimode once I decided where I want the subs…But I guess if you really wanted to be thorough you would run the entire calibration set up every time you tried a new location.

HT: PSA dual V3600's - PSA MTM-210T L/R - PSA MTM-210 Center- PSA 110sr Surrounds - Denon 3313CI - Sony BDP-S5200 - Panamax M4300 - Direct TV - Apple TV - Xbox360
Living Room: PSA XV15se - PSB Image T5 L/R - PSB Image B5 Center - Marantz SR5006 - Panasonic BDT210 - Panamax M4300 - Direct TV - Apple TV - Sony Wii
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Old 11-26-2015, 12:04 PM
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Those V1800's look Awesome!! I can not believe how much performance they offer for their size. Look how big the VTF-15 is in comparison.
ahblaza and sk373 like this.

Getting Started with REW: A Step by Step Guide -->http://www.roomeqwizard.com/REWhelp.pdf

Mini DSP Tutorial by Neutro --> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...g-minidsp.html
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Old 11-26-2015, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Grimm View Post
Maybe I'll end up putting them left & right next to the TV since they are quite a bit shorter than the HSU - is there a recommendation to the most ideal setup?
Placing dual subs symmetrically in the front of the room like one would do with speakers is very unlikely to provide the benefits associated with dual subs....a smoother frequency response. Often, placing them in opposite corners of the room i.e. front left, rear right will result in a good response that can be dialed in with eq. There are other options but this often works well. Only measuring will tell you for sure, which can be done for about $100.
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Old 11-26-2015, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Grimm View Post
Happy Thanksgiving!

I will be trying my two new additions over this weekend, but so far they have found their way nicely into my HT setup.

Attached you can find some impressions upon receipt & unpacking. I'm not done yet setting them up - currently, they reside in a small kick-out behind the main listening position, which did suite my HSU very well.

Maybe I'll end up putting them left & right next to the TV since they are quite a bit shorter than the HSU - is there a recommendation to the most ideal setup?

Another question to the pro's here:
Should I try on both possible positions the Anti-Mode or only at the final position for the subs?

Thanks and stay tuned,

Kevin

PS: everybody tells me we have a large dog, but it is all about perspective I guess ;-)
Happy Thanksgiving!

Congrats on your new subs...I'll be joining you shortly with dual V1800's as well...looking forward to your impressions once set up. Looks like an Onkyo AVR...which model?

BTW: My son is not far from you in Allendale...and if you're ever in the Detroit area, let me know.

Panasonic: PT-AE3000 Front Projector
Elite: 115" Fixed Frame CinemaScope (2.35:1)
Onkyo: TX-NR636 (5.2.2)
Klipsch: RF-7 II's, RC-64 II, RS-62 II, RB-61 II MICCA: M-8C (Atmos) x 6
SVS: TBD x 2
Panasonic: DMP-BD85

Last edited by gene4ht; 11-26-2015 at 06:16 PM.
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