Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 847 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #25381 of 37584 Old 02-22-2016, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by CURX8 View Post
So this is going to sound like a terrible question. How do I take a measurement of L/C/R + sub at the same time? When connected via HDMI, I am only able to output one channel at a time. Should I run sound through an RCA connection instead?
If using REW with the ASIO drivers you can sweep 2 channels at the same time. Choose 1 in the Output box and the second in the Timing Reference Output box. How you would run the L/C/R and Sub at the same time, I don't know. Perhaps 3 sweeps 1 L+Sub, 1 C+Sub and 1 R+Sub, then average them...
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post #25382 of 37584 Old 02-22-2016, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ceh383 View Post
If using REW with the ASIO drivers you can sweep 2 channels at the same time. Chooes 1 in the Output box and the second in the Timing Reference Output box. How you would run the L/C/R and Sub at the same time, I don't know. Perhaps 3 sweeps 1 L+Sub, 1 C+Sub and 1 R+Sub, then average them...
Thanks! I'm still learning all this. I figured I would have to end up averaging. I should be able to get L/R + sub and then C+sub for two total measurements if I can get my laptop to play nicely.
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post #25383 of 37584 Old 02-23-2016, 07:52 AM
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http://www.powersoundaudio.com/colle...products/s1500

Just for my own knowledge, can someone please clear my mind the following questions
1. On the Description tab, it's 109.7dB from 16Hz-25Hz.
On the Measurements tab, the Freq. Resp. graph doesn't show 109.7dB anywhere.
So how does it get that number?

2. the Long Term Output Compression, what are those color curves in that graph?
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post #25384 of 37584 Old 02-23-2016, 08:11 AM
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base response does not mean max burst output capability. Long term compression is how much output a sub can produce for a duration of time before compression sets in. each color line designates at what level the sweep was taken. variations in the higher level sweep in relation to the lower level sweeps are signs of thermal compression. go to www.data-bass.com and click the know-how tab and read up.
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post #25385 of 37584 Old 02-23-2016, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
base response does not mean max burst output capability. Long term compression is how much output a sub can produce for a duration of time before compression sets in. each color line designates at what level the sweep was taken. variations in the higher level sweep in relation to the lower level sweeps are signs of thermal compression. go to www.data-bass.com and click the know-how tab and read up.
So, 109.7dB is a max burst output, while 92dB (or around) that is an average output.
Am I right?
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post #25386 of 37584 Old 02-23-2016, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by tinhvo View Post
So, 109.7dB is a max burst output, while 92dB (or around) that is an average output.
Am I right?
No. A frequency response graph is unrelated to maximum output capabilities. The sole purpose of a frequency response graph is to show the relative smoothness of the product output over its intended operating bandwidth. You should think of the two as completely separate metrics when examining product measurements.

You can have excellent FR and poor max output.

You can have poor FR and excellent max output.

You can have excellent FR and excellent max output.

Of course, the last option is preferred..

http://www.powersoundaudio.com/pages...ponse-part-one

http://www.powersoundaudio.com/pages...ponse-part-two

http://www.powersoundaudio.com/pages...nse-part-three

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post #25387 of 37584 Old 02-23-2016, 10:43 AM
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Ah, more to read.
Thanks Tom
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post #25388 of 37584 Old 02-24-2016, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by CURX8 View Post
I'm hoping I can get some input from you kind folks. I have the T18HT and I do love it. It sounds incredible and adds so much more to my music, whether it be heavy metal or classical. It even sounds incredible for movies as well. However, I am wondering if I should add another subwoofer, not another T18 unfortunately, but maybe the S3000i, to add a little more "oomph" to the mid bass range for movie watching. I have an open concept home and so I have a lot of space to cover. The second sub would be more of a nearfield setup if measurements allow.

I am also juggling the option of maybe the V1800, but I'm not sure how pairing it with the sealed T18 would really work. Any advice? Thanks!
With our sealed designs they tend to sound very similar up to their respective headroom limits. A $849 15S and the $2999 T18ht would sound *very* similar for example. So adding any of the sealed models should work fine, it really just comes down to how much extra headroom you need to add to hit your target expectations. Would you happen to have any FR graphs of the current setup at your key seating?

Tom V.
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post #25389 of 37584 Old 02-24-2016, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
With our sealed designs they tend to sound very similar up to their respective headroom limits. A $849 15S and the $2999 T18ht would sound *very* similar for example. So adding any of the sealed models should work fine, it really just comes down to how much extra headroom you need to add to hit your target expectations. Would you happen to have any FR graphs of the current setup at your key seating?

Tom V.
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Thanks Tom! I do, but they are on another computer at the moment as I just went through yesterday and played around with some full range sweeps with my mains and center channel at both 80Hz crossover and 100Hz crossover. I will post them up when I get home this afternoon.
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post #25390 of 37584 Old 02-24-2016, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by njfoses View Post
I am looking at replacing my Rythmik F15HP (sealed) with either a 15V or V1500. I am ready to move back to a ported sub as 90% of my usage is home theater. I am moving into a new home in 45 days or so and I have attached a crude floor plan. Unfortunately I will not have a dedicated theater space. The red rectangle is a fireplace where the display will be placed above (i know, i know had to give in to the wife.) The green rectangles are my potential placement options for this new sub (again partially wife driven) and the blue rectangles are where couches will be placed.

What are your guys thoughts on the 15V vs V1500 for my application? I am using an Anthem avr so I will use ARC to determine the best sub placement out of the 3 options but I would like any feedback on the placement as well. Looking forward to joining the PSA family!



Any feedback would be appreciated.
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post #25391 of 37584 Old 02-24-2016, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by njfoses View Post
Any feedback would be appreciated.
In my opinion, I would try the positions that are closest to the TV and the corner by the window (the top two green squares) first and take measurements. In the owners manual for my T18 and even the V1500, for corner placement, it recommended a corner away from a large opening similar to the third placement option in your diagram in the lower left. I'm no expert by any means and really recommend placing it and taking a few measurements and moving it around to find the optimal location.
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post #25392 of 37584 Old 02-24-2016, 10:59 AM
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After first asking questions here 3-4 months ago, and then planning to get a PSA sub(s) once my family and I completed our move to our new home, I finally placed the order this morning for a 15V, and will most likely get a 2nd in the near future. For the short term though I will be running the 15V alongside my older SVS PC-12+.

I originally planned to go with the V1800, but having younger kids in the house as well as 2 dogs I had visions of someone running into the driver and/or grill and damaging it. The down-firing driver of the 15V provides a greater comfort level for me, and I don't think I will personally need the greater output of the V1800 particularly in a dual setup. With my current PC-12+ I keep the sub balanced with the rest of the speakers (I don't generally run it hot.....occasionally I'll bump the sub trim up 2-3 DBs).

The issue I currently have with the single sub is not really output limitations or having an uneven frequency response, but rather a sense of localization. By localization I don't mean that I can necessarily pick out the fundamental note the SVS sub is producing as coming directly from the sub, but I have it located in the front left corner of a 6000+ cubic foot room and there is always a sense of the pressure from the sub in my left ear when sitting in the MLP, but I don't get that sensation in my right ear. In other words I always feel the sub on my left side, but not my right side. That may sound peculiar, and perhaps it is just my own form of OCD.

I will post my thoughts and a picture or two when I receive the new sub.

In addition, there were a few reasons I chose PSA over some of the other well-known ID sub brands this time around. From a performance perspective, and within a given price range, I think most of the ID subs are more similar than not. The fact that PSA can offer a USA made product (with solid components....not cheap low-grade parts) at a competitive price point compared to the others, who source production overseas, is no small feat. This may not matter to many people, but it does to me. Reaction Audio is the other vendor of USA made subs that I evaluated, and while their products also appear to offer excellent performance, I just do not have a great comfort level with their business operations. By all accounts, the customer service of PSA is exemplary (...in fact I dropped into a chat on the PSA site with a single question, and I would swear Tom responded with an answer before I had even sent my question!...). I hope there are no issues with my sub obviously, but if something does happen then I feel confident that PSA will resolve it quickly and efficiently. I have dealt with companies before that will go out of their way to not resolve a clear defect or issue with their products, and it is frustrating when that happens. As I do leave my sub(s) on 'auto', I did also want an energy efficient and cool running amp, which the Speakerpower amps on the PSA subs are. None of these reasons for going with PSA are revelations to many on this thread I am sure, but these are some of the points that do differentiate PSA from other vendors.
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post #25393 of 37584 Old 02-24-2016, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by njfoses View Post
Any feedback would be appreciated.
The 15v and V1500 are so close in overall performance I would base a purchase decision between those two on ancillary considerations such as enclosure size and budget limitations. Or, for example, if going with the smaller/less expensive 15v initially might make it more likely you could add a second sub down the road(if you felt the need).

Really, if you had one of each in the system I bet you wouldn't be able to tell them apart with the large majority of source material. To me, the 15v is a better value.

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post #25394 of 37584 Old 02-24-2016, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
The 15v and V1500 are so close in overall performance I would base a purchase decision between those two on ancillary considerations such as enclosure size and budget limitations. Or, for example, if going with the smaller/less expensive 15v initially might make it more likely you could add a second sub down the road(if you felt the need).

Really, if you had one of each in the system I bet you wouldn't be able to tell them apart with the large majority of source material. To me, the 15v is a better value.

Tom V.
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Thanks Tom, appreciate the input!
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post #25395 of 37584 Old 02-24-2016, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CURX8 View Post
I'm hoping I can get some input from you kind folks. I have the T18HT and I do love it. It sounds incredible and adds so much more to my music, whether it be heavy metal or classical. It even sounds incredible for movies as well. However, I am wondering if I should add another subwoofer, not another T18 unfortunately, but maybe the S3000i, to add a little more "oomph" to the mid bass range for movie watching. I have an open concept home and so I have a lot of space to cover. The second sub would be more of a nearfield setup if measurements allow.

I am also juggling the option of maybe the V1800, but I'm not sure how pairing it with the sealed T18 would really work. Any advice? Thanks!
I have a T-18 and a S3000 working well together (well, 2 of each actually ). The T-18s are about 17' from the MLP and the S3000s about 7'...works very well. I do keep the trim on the S3000s -2dB below the T-18s just to maximize headroom, but to be honest it is probably not necessary with the S3000s less than half the distance away.


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Originally Posted by CURX8 View Post
I'll give that a shot. I really haven't done too much tweaking and I'm not necessarily sure it is "lacking" per se, but rather, that "kick in the chest" feeling isn't that obvious. Of course, I'm in a large room and the gain on the sub is set at the 9:00 position (level 2), with no other adjustments made yet.
My setup also lacks that "kick in the chest"...until you get to "extreme" MV levels. I attribute this to the large space I have to fill...around ~5K cu. ft.


Quote:
So I have a question regarding the crossover region. It is set to 80Hz at the moment. What is the best way to check for a good transition at the point. I have read some places recommend reading the center channel and the sub and determine how it looks in REW. Does that sound correct or should I be checking it against the mains?
As bh said, you need to do the sub distance tweak. In a nutshell:
  • Measure CC+subs with bass management engaged (REW Output CH3)
  • Look to see if you have a dip near the crossover region
  • Adjust the subwoofer distance in the AVR +1' at a time and re-measure
  • Keep going on the distance setting until you either see an improvement in the crossover region, or you start to make it worse


If your system is mostly movies, you want to distance tweak with the CC. If mostly music, use the FL/FR.

If you want to try and optimize for both music & movies, you will have to distance tweak both CC+subs & fronts+subs and then try to come up with a good compromise distance setting...very rarely does the distance setting that works best for CC+subs work best for fronts+subs.


Just FYI - even with the distance tweak (and I had a pretty good dip at the crossover), the "kick in the chest" is not what it can be in a smaller space. I've considered building a wall.
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post #25396 of 37584 Old 02-24-2016, 05:40 PM
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Here are a couple frequency sweeps with the Center channel and sub. One is 100Hz crossover, the other is 80Hz. Guess I won't get that intense kick in the chest sensation, but it still sounds good. When I can finally take some time to try and really fine tune it I can only imagine what I can get it to sound like. And yes, I do run the sub a little hot.
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post #25397 of 37584 Old 02-24-2016, 07:05 PM
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Hey Guys, I'm finally getting my system setup properly. To get to the chase I have an annoying hum through all of my speakers and tried all kinds of trouble shooting to no avail. Finally it dawned on me that it may be the external amp I installed. It's on a dedicated circuit, I checked all inputs and outputs, all is correct. I lifted the ground leg with a cheater and plugged that into a GFI, hum is gone all is dead quiet. Any suggestions as to what's happening, the sound with the amp also sounds veiled compared to driving my speakers with just the receiver's amps.

I had to bump up the speaker's trim levels, my PSA levels were never in the + trim levels. Another thing, with the amp powered off and running test tones through the subs only I could hear tones from all the speakers as well.

Cheers Jeffrey

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post #25398 of 37584 Old 02-24-2016, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CURX8 View Post
Here are a couple frequency sweeps with the Center channel and sub. One is 100Hz crossover, the other is 80Hz. Guess I won't get that intense kick in the chest sensation, but it still sounds good. When I can finally take some time to try and really fine tune it I can only imagine what I can get it to sound like. And yes, I do run the sub a little hot.
This screams Audyssey Sub Distance Tweak.
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post #25399 of 37584 Old 02-24-2016, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CURX8 View Post
Here are a couple frequency sweeps with the Center channel and sub. One is 100Hz crossover, the other is 80Hz. Guess I won't get that intense kick in the chest sensation, but it still sounds good. When I can finally take some time to try and really fine tune it I can only imagine what I can get it to sound like. And yes, I do run the sub a little hot.
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This screams Audyssey Sub Distance Tweak.
Looking at those graphs, I'd leave the XO at 80hz and try moving the speakers a bit.
Both graphs have about a 4db dip at 80hz, both graphs have a large dip between about 110 and 130hz, after that the 100hz XO starts to look worse to me.
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post #25400 of 37584 Old 02-24-2016, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raynist View Post
This screams Audyssey Sub Distance Tweak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceh383 View Post
Looking at those graphs, I'd leave the XO at 80hz and try moving the speakers a bit.
Both graphs have about a 4db dip at 80hz, both graphs have a large dip between about 110 and 130hz, after that the 100hz XO starts to look worse to me.
I will give the distance tweak a try. This is MCACC btw

I feel like the 80Hz crossover was better also. I will move the sub around a bit and play around with the distance tweak.

Regarding the distance tweak, is it better to use the AVR distance or the delay knob on the sub?
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post #25401 of 37584 Old 02-24-2016, 08:14 PM
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I will give the distance tweak a try. This is MCACC btw

I feel like the 80Hz crossover was better also. I will move the sub around a bit and play around with the distance tweak.

Regarding the distance tweak, is it better to use the AVR distance or the delay knob on the sub?
With the 80hz XO, your biggest issues look to be above that point, not at or below it where the sub plays. Leave the sub alone and move the center speaker to see if you can clean some of that up.
For the sub tweak, the AVR is the easiest way to do it...
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hit that nail on the head.

sub distance tweak and remove the tilt in the response and your midbass slam should improve.
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post #25403 of 37584 Old 02-25-2016, 12:29 PM
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Quick question, I gained matched my subs and then randomly positioned my dual V1800s and ran test tones through each one and noted the SPLs, then through both and the output increased by 5-6dB as hoped. I then used the RTA option with REW to find what I thought the best locations to be. I then ran tones through each one again and then both but didn't get the 6dB increased output levels, obviously a cancellation issue.

I increased the delay on one sub until I achieved the added gain of 5-6dB. My question now is since I did this how will it affect running XT32 SUB EQ since this flavor of RC does this for me. My thoughts are that it will make Audyssey's job a little easier, am I way off base here? Thanks for all feedback.

Side note: as for the ground hum issue with my amp, I just found out this amp does not have a ground safety feature so I don't know how lifting the ground solved my hum issues.....

Cheers Jeffrey
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post #25404 of 37584 Old 02-25-2016, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Quick question, I gained matched my subs and then randomly positioned my dual V1800s and ran test tones through each one and noted the SPLs, then through both and the output increased by 5-6dB as hoped. I then used the RTA option with REW to find what I thought the best locations to be. I then ran tones through each one again and then both but didn't get the 6dB increased output levels, obviously a cancellation issue.

I increased the delay on one sub until I achieved the added gain of 5-6dB. My question now is since I did this how will it affect running XT32 SUB EQ since this flavor of RC does this for me. My thoughts are that it will make Audyssey's job a little easier, am I way off base here? Thanks for all feedback.

Side note: as for the ground hum issue with my amp, I just found out this amp does not have a ground safety feature so I don't know how lifting the ground solved my hum issues.....

Cheers Jeffrey
Hi Jeff! This is the first time I've replied directly to one of your posts since you've been back...so, welcome back my friend!


Concerning the delay....I don't think it should make a difference if you use the distance setting in the AVR or the delay knob on the subs, but I could be wrong. If it was me, I would use the AVR just because I then know exactly how much delay I am adding.

Can't help you with your ground issue, but since you also said that the amp seems to "veil" the sound a bit and it seems to be passing a signal while off...why not just get rid of it?
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post #25405 of 37584 Old 02-25-2016, 01:40 PM
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Hi Jeff! This is the first time I've replied directly to one of your posts since you've been back...so, welcome back my friend!


Concerning the delay....I don't think it should make a difference if you use the distance setting in the AVR or the delay knob on the subs, but I could be wrong. If it was me, I would use the AVR just because I then know exactly how much delay I am adding.

Can't help you with your ground issue, but since you also said that the amp seems to "veil" the sound a bit and it seems to be passing a signal while off...why not just get rid of it?
Thanks Alan for the warm welcome back. As far as the delay I think using the AVR's delay is also the better option. I will work with this as far as I can take it with REW and then run some sweeps and follow with Audy calibration and compare the results. Thanks again my friend. I resolved the amp issue, ground loop problem, now very quiet....
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post #25406 of 37584 Old 02-25-2016, 01:44 PM
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I'm a proud new S300i owner as of this morning. It wasn't nearly as bad to unpack and install as I feared, but sadly I had to go to work before I could do much with it. I thought you guys would get a kick out of this, though:

I set the on/off switch to auto and not wanting to disturb my sleeping family, I tried to listen to some stuff pretty quietly, but the sub was dead. I was worried that the box, that looked like it had been attacked with a machete, had been damaged. In desperation, I put on the test tones and after a second, there was a click and the sub came to life! Apparently setting my preamp to -60 was just a tad to low to kick on the sub!

I can't wait to run through my Blu-ray collection tonight...

Preamplifier: Onkyo PR-SC5530 + DSPeaker Antimode 8033-Cinema
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPA-2 & XPA-5
Speakers: (5.1.2): Klipsch RP-250F mains, RP-450C center, RP-140SA surrounds, RP-140SA elevations, Power Sound Audio S3000i sub
Screen: LG 60PV450 Plasma TV Sources: Panasonic BDT-220, Roku 3, Comcast cable
Room: Extensive treatment with GIK Acoustics Bass Traps and Absorption Panels
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post #25407 of 37584 Old 02-25-2016, 02:56 PM
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Congrats MackGuyver and welcome to the fold!

Report back and if you have any setup issues/questions (like, how to get the auto-on to work ) don't hesitate to ask the collective bassheads here in the PSA thread.
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post #25408 of 37584 Old 02-25-2016, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Congrats MackGuyver and welcome to the fold!

Report back and if you have any setup issues/questions (like, how to get the auto-on to work ) don't hesitate to ask the collective bassheads here in the PSA thread.
Thanks and just blew the doors off my home theater a few minutes ago! Wow, THIS is what I was looking for. I started with the Dolby Atmos Amaze Trailer and literally blew the circuit of my 15kVA power conditioner during the lightning strike. I reset it, moved the sub to it's own high current surge protector and WOW - insane bass in my ~2000 cubic foot room. It sounded like my surround speakers were going to rattle off the walls! I can't wait to dial it in - the only thing I did was calibrate the level before this. Talk to you guys later...

Preamplifier: Onkyo PR-SC5530 + DSPeaker Antimode 8033-Cinema
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPA-2 & XPA-5
Speakers: (5.1.2): Klipsch RP-250F mains, RP-450C center, RP-140SA surrounds, RP-140SA elevations, Power Sound Audio S3000i sub
Screen: LG 60PV450 Plasma TV Sources: Panasonic BDT-220, Roku 3, Comcast cable
Room: Extensive treatment with GIK Acoustics Bass Traps and Absorption Panels
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post #25409 of 37584 Old 02-25-2016, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MackGuyver View Post
Thanks and just blew the doors off my home theater a few minutes ago! Wow, THIS is what I was looking for. I started with the Dolby Atmos Amaze Trailer and literally blew the circuit of my 15kVA power conditioner during the lightning strike. I reset it, moved the sub to it's own high current surge protector and WOW - insane bass in my ~2000 cubic foot room. It sounded like my surround speakers were going to rattle off the walls! I can't wait to dial it in - the only thing I did was calibrate the level before this. Talk to you guys later...
Welcome to some real subwoofage!!! I was just as pleased and surprised with my S3000i's.
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post #25410 of 37584 Old 02-25-2016, 06:19 PM
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I watched my first movie at reference tonight, there is no way that's the way it's supposed to be. I still don't feel rightlol,
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