Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 868 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #26011 of 27630 Old 04-24-2016, 07:51 PM
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Pulling the Trigger

Hey Bros. just moved from Brooklyn, NY to Westchester, NY. Got a 5130 cubic foot room that was supposed to finished last week, but contractors often switch things up on you, lol. So, they should be finished with my theater room by Thursday or Friday this week. I am looking to get woofage powerful enough to get extension and overall output....Tom said perhaps dual V3600's or dual S3600's since I was asking him about the T18ht. That sucker looks amazing and I just can't see how, if it is supposed to be as strong as two sub2's and four pb ultra's, how can't that bad boy pressurize my room. Perhaps hopinator, or anyone that is running dual 3600's, whether vented or sealed, can chime in via personal experience with their knowledge and overall thoughts on said options. Or even someone who is only running a single T18ht.
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post #26012 of 27630 Old 04-24-2016, 07:53 PM
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I'm experiencing the same with my S3000i - constantly clicking on-off during lower volume use.
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post #26013 of 27630 Old 04-24-2016, 08:07 PM
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Haven't experienced this in my v1500, and I hope not to! Lol
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post #26014 of 27630 Old 04-24-2016, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalCarl View Post
Thanks for the quick reply and information Docethic - Very much appreciated.
I guess it's good to know I'm not alone with this issue -


I know Tom and Jim from PSA monitor this forum, so hopefully my (our) posts will catch their eye to check it out.


I figured it was just something in my installation. Hopefully PSA, Seaton, ICE, and whoever else can come up with a solution!


Thanks again
You are very welcome! I believe this is just growing pains with the ICE modules as they try to tweek and dial in the Auto on circuit to qualify for the energy star rating. I am confident all the smart people involved will figure out a solution for all of us soon!

What does frustrate me tho is I just beat on my XV15se for a couple hours and not only does the auto on work great, but the amp is cool as a cucumber after. Makes me appreciate my crappy outdated BASH amp that much more haha. Makes me wonder what the limiting factor is in the BASH amp design as every sub I've owned has had one and has worked flawlessly. It must be cost prohibitive to make powerful enough non class D amps in a compact plate amp.

On another note, for any of you with a small room trying to decide to go sealed or ported...I just moved my XV to my tiny basement room and holy cow. If you want tactile couch shaking ULF just go vented and hold onto something. I am very impressed with the little XV
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post #26015 of 27630 Old 04-24-2016, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by MackGuyver View Post
I've been having the same issue with my S3000i and find it annoying. It's not an issue when watching at normal volumes but at night it constantly cycles on an off while watching TV shows. I can live with it, but wish it didn't do it. I'm 100% happy with the sub in all other regards.

Interesting.... The plot thickens!
Will be watching this thread closely this week to see what PSA finds out once they get a chance to dig into it.
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post #26016 of 27630 Old 04-24-2016, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Docethic View Post
You are very welcome! I believe this is just growing pains with the ICE modules as they try to tweek and dial in the Auto on circuit to qualify for the energy star rating. I am confident all the smart people involved will figure out a solution for all of us soon!

What does frustrate me tho is I just beat on my XV15se for a couple hours and not only does the auto on work great, but the amp is cool as a cucumber after. Makes me appreciate my crappy outdated BASH amp that much more haha. Makes me wonder what the limiting factor is in the BASH amp design as every sub I've owned has had one and has worked flawlessly. It must be cost prohibitive to make powerful enough non class D amps in a compact plate amp.

On another note, for any of you with a small room trying to decide to go sealed or ported...I just moved my XV to my tiny basement room and holy cow. If you want tactile couch shaking ULF just go vented and hold onto something. I am very impressed with the little XV

Agreed - A solution will be forthcoming!
Sounds like fun with your VX in the basement. No basement here in my townhouse. Maybe I'll move my pair of HSU ULS-15's into the laundry room and see what happens.....
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post #26017 of 27630 Old 04-25-2016, 03:56 AM
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Guys...if having issues, dont rely on this or any forum getting the message to the manufacture.

If you havnt done so already, contact Tom if the issue is with a PSA product and get your specific issue in the pipeline. There may be information for you from PSA or Tom/Jim/Speakerpower may need some more specifics to properly address the issue. Its likely being worked and who know where they are at with a solution.
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post #26018 of 27630 Old 04-25-2016, 04:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MackGuyver View Post
I've been having the same issue with my S3000i and find it annoying. It's not an issue when watching at normal volumes but at night it constantly cycles on an off while watching TV shows. I can live with it, but wish it didn't do it. I'm 100% happy with the sub in all other regards.
Yeah when I am watching movies at a high volume level it will stay on but there are some shows and occasionally some movies I am watching at lower volume and I hear it click on. I assumed it was not receiving a strong enough LFE signal from the AVR.
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post #26019 of 27630 Old 04-25-2016, 05:41 AM
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Edit*


Sounds like a calibration issue. Too much sub gain and not enough sub trim from the AVR.

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post #26020 of 27630 Old 04-25-2016, 05:42 AM
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"'ve been having the same issue with my S3000i "

Given I have a S1500 on its way I'll keep an eye on this same thing. If I'm going to listen to low volumes however it would be unlikely I'd have the SW on. If its too late and I have to keep volume down I'd just use the TV's speakers anyway.

But will watch for it. If its cycling off during normal volume but during quiet passages that of course is not good.....

I'm not an electrical engineer but this particular thing doesn't seem all that complicated. Whatever the system is that's looking for "enough" signal to turn on and stay on, they need to lower the threshold that defines "enough".

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post #26021 of 27630 Old 04-25-2016, 06:10 AM
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I would add that I don't have this problem with my V1800, given its near a light gray wall its easy to see when it switches on/off. I usually listen to non-movie content at about -30 to -35 (0 equal reference). Gain is at about 9 o'clock with the sub EQ'd by XT32. Run the subs about +5 or at - 4. I wonder if when the unit was bought has anything to do with this issue? If it was something I had happening with my sub I would just leave it on, but understand those who would like Auto to function correctly.

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post #26022 of 27630 Old 04-25-2016, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by SoCalCarl View Post
LOL - You guys are making hungry!
Having a curious issue I'm trying to diagnose and hoping someone might have some ideas.


A couple weeks ago I took delivery of a pair of PSA V1800's. The subs are running great and perform just incredibly - No complaints.
My question is about the 'auto' position of the power switch. I like to leave the power switch set to 'auto' so the system 'sleeps' when I'm not using it. I also listen at very low volumes in the evening (-40 to -50 ref) and the subs power cycle occasionally as I'd expect. My old subs did this also, so I consider the behavior normal. Weird thing is the subs also power cycle every few minutes when my entire system is off!


When the system is 'off' my Samsung plasma TV and blue-ray player, and my Marantz AVR go into standby - You can't really power them off completely. My Time Warner digital cable box (HDMI connected to the AVR) and my Roku3 are fully powered off.


The cable nest behind the system is tidy, and I tried to keep the power cables and TV coax cable separated from the sub feeds best as space allows (but they are close and do cross in a couple places). The sub feeds are a pair of good quality mid-level Audioquest subwoofer cables I used to feed my prior subs without issues. The subs are powered by their own dedicated 30 amp circuit. Everything else is on another circuit. I tried plugging the subs into the same circuit as the rest of the system, but no joy, so I'm thinking I don't have a power problem. I haven't tried swapping the sub feed cables because I never had trouble with them before.


So.... I'm thinking the sub feeds must be picking up some spurious signals that trip the auto-power relays, or? Any thoughts or idea's on what might be going on would be appreciated. It's not an end-of-the-world problem because I can just switch the subs on/off a needed - It's just bugging me that I can't figure it out!


Thank you.
Power everything off(subs too) and disconnect the cable(s) from the subs. Turn the subs to OFF and then to AUTO. This should have them *on*. Wait until they go into standby. If they don't cycle back on that would indicate some sort of signal coming through the cables.

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post #26023 of 27630 Old 04-25-2016, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trolly View Post
I'm experiencing the same with my S3000i - constantly clicking on-off during lower volume use.
Turn down the sub gain control a little, turn up the bass level setting in the receiver.

You just need to have a little more signal strength running to the subwoofer so the auto-off/on circuit doesn't trip. This is common and can occur with all subs.

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post #26024 of 27630 Old 04-25-2016, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by cmdrdredd View Post
Yeah when I am watching movies at a high volume level it will stay on but there are some shows and occasionally some movies I am watching at lower volume and I hear it click on. I assumed it was not receiving a strong enough LFE signal from the AVR.
Correct. Lower the gain control on the sub a little and increase the bass level setting in the receiver menu a couple/few clicks. Should take care of it..

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post #26025 of 27630 Old 04-25-2016, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Correct. Lower the gain control on the sub a little and increase the bass level setting in the receiver menu a couple/few clicks. Should take care of it..



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The trim in the AVR is at -4.5 which I assumed was pretty good.

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post #26026 of 27630 Old 04-25-2016, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by cmdrdredd View Post
The trim in the AVR is at -4.5 which I assumed was pretty good.
If the amp is tripping off during quiet passages I'd bump it up as necessary to eliminate that problem. Also, be sure you have all speakers set to small with a crossover point no lower than 80hz too.

There are no set standards for the "auto on" circuit in amplifiers so the settings the work okay for one brand of sub may or may not work okay for another brand.

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post #26027 of 27630 Old 04-25-2016, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
If the amp is tripping off during quiet passages I'd bump it up as necessary to eliminate that problem. Also, be sure you have all speakers set to small with a crossover point no lower than 80hz too.

There are no set standards for the "auto on" circuit in amplifiers so the settings the work okay for one brand of sub may or may not work okay for another brand.

Tom V.
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Tom, I have the sub gain on my S3000i set in the middle and my pre-amp gain at 0dB, but I also had my mains under 80Hz until recently when I swapped out my speakers. I haven't noticed the issue since then, but I haven't really watched anything quietly, either. I'll give it a shot tonight and let you know how it works out, but I imagine that was the issue.

Thanks,
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post #26028 of 27630 Old 04-25-2016, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by MackGuyver View Post
Tom, I have the sub gain on my S3000i set in the middle and my pre-amp gain at 0dB, but I also had my mains under 80Hz until recently when I swapped out my speakers. I haven't noticed the issue since then, but I haven't really watched anything quietly, either. I'll give it a shot tonight and let you know how it works out, but I imagine that was the issue.

Thanks,
Ian
Hi Ian,

The reason it is important to set all speakers to 80hz(or higher) in this context is that with many sources the majority of the bass may be encoded on the left and right channels. By running those at 80hz or higher you are ensuring that a good bit of bass signal strength is being rerouted to the subwoofer via the receiver/processor bass management function. Also, setting all speakers to small(yes, even if you have towers with built in subs) will almost always provide the best audio presentation too!

Keep me in the loop,

Tom V.
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post #26029 of 27630 Old 04-25-2016, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
Power everything off(subs too) and disconnect the cable(s) from the subs. Turn the subs to OFF and then to AUTO. This should have them *on*. Wait until they go into standby. If they don't cycle back on that would indicate some sort of signal coming through the cables.

Tom V.
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Thank you for commenting Tom.
I will perform the test this evening when I get home - Hopefully this should give a clue how to proceed. A cable problem or interference is still my bet on solving it.

I see others commenting about sub-gain and AVR sub-trim levels, which makes sense.
I didn't explore in that direction because what got me started on this was my subs (both) are power cycling when the entire system is powered down when the subs are set to 'auto'! Weird!

Thanks again - Keep you posted.
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post #26030 of 27630 Old 04-25-2016, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by brahman12 View Post
Hey Bros. just moved from Brooklyn, NY to Westchester, NY. Got a 5130 cubic foot room that was supposed to finished last week, but contractors often switch things up on you, lol. So, they should be finished with my theater room by Thursday or Friday this week. I am looking to get woofage powerful enough to get extension and overall output....Tom said perhaps dual V3600's or dual S3600's since I was asking him about the T18ht. That sucker looks amazing and I just can't see how, if it is supposed to be as strong as two sub2's and four pb ultra's, how can't that bad boy pressurize my room. Perhaps hopinator, or anyone that is running dual 3600's, whether vented or sealed, can chime in via personal experience with their knowledge and overall thoughts on said options. Or even someone who is only running a single T18ht.
1) It is important to note that the *4x* pb13ultra is with the ultra in sealed mode.

2) If you compare the T18ht to say dual V3600i in a 5000+ cu-ft room environment the V3600s are going to kick some sand in the T18ht face so to speak. The functional extension will be similar, I'd say 11-14hz for the T18ht, 15-16hz for the V3600i. Nothing to use as a basis for your purchase decision. In terms of clean headroom, it is no contest. The dual V3600i subs will have 2-3x the bass output. Many consider the output/cost ratio to be a primary indicator of *value* and in this case...it's not even close.

3) The value of the T18ht is the much smaller enclosure(compared to dual 3600s), and its potential to extend *very* deep---well into the single digits(in smaller rooms or using multiples of the T18ht).

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post #26031 of 27630 Old 04-25-2016, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post
1) It is important to note that the *4x* pb13ultra is with the ultra in sealed mode.

2) If you compare the T18ht to say dual V3600i in a 5000+ cu-ft room environment the V3600s are going to kick some sand in the T18ht face so to speak. The functional extension will be similar, I'd say 11-14hz for the T18ht, 15-16hz for the V3600i. Nothing to use as a basis for your purchase decision. In terms of clean headroom, it is no contest. The dual V3600i subs will have 2-3x the bass output. Many consider the output/cost ratio to be a primary indicator of *value* and in this case...it's not even close.

3) The value of the T18ht is the much smaller enclosure(compared to dual 3600s), and its potential to extend *very* deep---well into the single digits(in smaller rooms or using multiples of the T18ht).

Tom V.
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Being the owner of dual T-18s in a 5K^3 ft. room, I do not like this post. No sir, I don't like it at all.

Should I be considering the sale of my T-18s (+ dual S3000s) for an "upgrade" to dual V3600s (+ dual V1800s)??

Only half-seriously considering this idea...but we all know how these sort of things end up. Once you start thinking about it...well, y'know.
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post #26032 of 27630 Old 04-25-2016, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by brahman12 View Post
Hey Bros. just moved from Brooklyn, NY to Westchester, NY. Got a 5130 cubic foot room that was supposed to finished last week, but contractors often switch things up on you, lol. So, they should be finished with my theater room by Thursday or Friday this week. I am looking to get woofage powerful enough to get extension and overall output....Tom said perhaps dual V3600's or dual S3600's since I was asking him about the T18ht. That sucker looks amazing and I just can't see how, if it is supposed to be as strong as two sub2's and four pb ultra's, how can't that bad boy pressurize my room. Perhaps hopinator, or anyone that is running dual 3600's, whether vented or sealed, can chime in via personal experience with their knowledge and overall thoughts on said options. Or even someone who is only running a single T18ht.
My space is a little larger than yours but yours is plenty large so I would advise you to go with dual V3600i's (or at least start with a single) if you want to get the sub woofage you seek. Sealed subs (even one's as powerful as the T18) do better in smaller spaces where they can take advantage of room gain to augment their output. They may be able to extend deeper but unless you have enough output the extension will be anemic… and what's the point of that?

So in large spaces, if you must go sealed, it's usually recommended to have multiple sealed subs... even if they are powerful. On the other hand, ported subs do quit well in large spaces as long as they are powerful enough (which I assure you the V3600i is) so you will need fewer of them.

In my experience a single V3600i (run with a XV15SE) transformed my HT with incredible awesome bass that had both output good extension. But dual V3600i's took my HT to levels I never thought possible. It gave me even more output and added even deeper extension. With duals I now have solid extension down to about 11 or 12 Hz where as before I had extension down to about 16 Hz.

This might be interesting to some of you… In my 5700 cu ft plus room running dual XV15SE's I had extension to about 18Hz. With one V3600i and a XV15SE I had extension to about 16 Hz. With dual V3600i's I now have extension to about 11 Hz before it really starts a steep drop. So output does matter and with enough of it ported subs can dig pretty deep. Of course this is room dependent and YMMV.
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post #26033 of 27630 Old 04-25-2016, 02:05 PM
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Being the owner of dual T-18s in a 5K^3 ft. room, I do not like this post. No sir, I don't like it at all.

Should I be considering the sale of my T-18s (+ dual S3000s) for an "upgrade" to dual V3600s (+ dual V1800s)??

Only half-seriously considering this idea...but we all know how these sort of things end up. Once you start thinking about it...well, y'know.
No… You should go with Quad V3600i's.

Now that would be fun… I guarantee it!
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post #26034 of 27630 Old 04-25-2016, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
No… You should go with Quad V3600i's.

Now that would be fun… I guarantee it!
Somehow I just knew you would be the first one to go there.
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post #26035 of 27630 Old 04-25-2016, 02:35 PM
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This might be interesting to some of you… In my 5700 cu ft plus room running dual XV15SE's I had extension to about 18Hz. With one V3600i and a XV15SE I had extension to about 16 Hz. With dual V3600i's I now have extension to about 11 Hz before it really starts a steep drop. So output does matter and with enough of it ported subs can dig pretty deep. Of course this is room dependent and YMMV.
There's a lot going on in the deeper frequencies that can be hard to simulate. 11-12hz sound about right to be honest. I tend to be a little conservative with my guess-i-mates. Better to under promise and over deliver and all that. I keep hearing the same thing about our towers and their extension..

Tom V.
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post #26036 of 27630 Old 04-25-2016, 02:46 PM
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Being the owner of dual T-18s in a 5K^3 ft. room, I do not like this post. No sir, I don't like it at all.

Should I be considering the sale of my T-18s (+ dual S3000s) for an "upgrade" to dual V3600s (+ dual V1800s)??

Only half-seriously considering this idea...but we all know how these sort of things end up. Once you start thinking about it...well, y'know.
It just comes down to the lunatic fringe and what the judge says about your mental health..


Actually it is pretty simple. If you want to maximize the system performance vs. cost down to say 16-18hz...no brainer. Get as many V3600i as you can fit into the room!

If you want to extend the system bandwidth to the deepest possible point(5hz-7hz for example) and cost is secondary...grab as many sealed subs as you need. And by need I mean you *need* to ensure adequate headroom across the operating bandwidth before chasing extension. Chasing 5hz can be *very* expensive but also very fun when the room is pressurized so much it feels like your ear drums are going to pop.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio
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post #26037 of 27630 Old 04-25-2016, 02:48 PM
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Somehow I just knew you would be the first one to go there.
And I will be the second...
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Mini DSP Tutorial by Neutro --> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...g-minidsp.html
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post #26038 of 27630 Old 04-25-2016, 02:53 PM
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OK, I posted a "feeler" ad on my local CL...let's see what happens.

http://rapidcity.craigslist.org/ele/5556523773.html
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post #26039 of 27630 Old 04-25-2016, 03:00 PM
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It just comes down to the lunatic fringe and what the judge says about your mental health..
Well, when it comes to subs I *have* been called a lunatic on more than one occasion...usually by my wife.


Quote:
If you want to extend the system bandwidth to the deepest possible point(5hz-7hz for example) and cost is secondary...grab as many sealed subs as you need. And by need I mean you *need* to ensure adequate headroom across the operating bandwidth before chasing extension. Chasing 5hz can be *very* expensive but also very fun when the room is pressurized so much it feels like your ear drums are going to pop.
See, that's the thing...even with 6x18"+4x15" with a total of <11K watts, I still can't get that "pressure" feeling in my ears (well, I do get it a little at high SPLs). Think the "V"s would get me there??
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post #26040 of 27630 Old 04-25-2016, 04:08 PM
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See, that's the thing...even with 6x18"+4x15" with a total of <11K watts, I still can't get that "pressure" feeling in my ears (well, I do get it a little at high SPLs). Think the "V"s would get me there??

Considering he is referencing 5hz, no. Your sealed subs are better for that. The ported subs won't have anything substantial a few hz below the port tune, so nothing in the single digits.
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