Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 871 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #26101 of 27630 Old 04-27-2016, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post
Music mastering levels are all over the place. Something like Talking Heads Stop Making Sense (probably my favorite live surround concert mix)I listen at around +9 over reference, but to get the same subjective volume level on something like Police Certifiable which is hotly mastered and compressed you only need to go to around -9 below reference. I always just turn it up until it is comfortably loud and make note of that level on a sticky so I know where to set it for next listen. I also jot down any changes I tweaked for bass, treble and crossover since everything is mixed and mastered differently.
Yeah, I guess that was kind of a stupid question.

I was curious about Rattle & Hum in particular since I have that one.
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post #26102 of 27630 Old 04-27-2016, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post
I agree and it is very annoying!

Sorry Alan, just realized you were asking about the U2 disc in particular. That was the HD-DVD version of Rattle and Hum using the DTS-ES 6.1 track which we had at +3.5 over refernce with the sub running hot ~4-5dbs.
Perfect! Thanks!

However, I only have the CD...I'll give a spin anyways. One of my favorite U2 discs anyways.
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post #26103 of 27630 Old 04-27-2016, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post
I'm rambling, but point is I have been VERY impressed with the 3600 and PSA speakers for music. I actually can't stop buying multichannel music discs! Just bought 5 more Talking Heads albums on DVD-A which are on the way and can't wait to hear them. Hope that helps somewhat and sorry my thoughts are a bit scattered.

Toe...Dude...that was an awesome post. Thanks for responding and for putting in so much effort to try and get your point across. I could feel your excitement and passion through your typed words, lol. Really cool stuff. I know we all hear differently and have different tastes but when you get a meaningful and well thought out post, it does help others with trying to formulate a decision when they don't have their own reference point to vibe off of. When you talked about being very familiar with certain material by having listened to said material countless times, but then being awestruck all over again by how the material is being reproduced through the V3600....I knew exactly what you meant, and I am looking forward to watching my Rattle and Hum HD-DVD for the billionth time and getting that "hi-fi high" that is a deeply gratifying result of our beloved hobby. Whether it is through the artistic expression of cinema or music, those moments make the money spent worth every penny IMO.
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post #26104 of 27630 Old 04-27-2016, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by digler84 View Post
Well I'm not toe, but i can vouch for the musicality of the v3600. hell, i'll go out on a limb and vouch for movies too.
The 3600 is a beast in every sense of the word, but it is amazingly "delicate" during music as well. Jazz, r&b, country, rock, rap....it doesn't matter what variation you like or listen to, the 3600 will completely debunk the idea that 18's or ported lack with music. I all but guarantee that if you could conceal the 3600 (good luck there btw) and allow people to listen to music they would be hard pressed to tell you ported/sealed. Smooth, articulate, quick, accurate.....no matter what hot word of the day you want to use, it does fit with the 3600. don't get hung up on size or ported/sealed...i've heard/owned both ported/sealed and have owned 8/10/15 and now 18. Out of all these subs the 3600 trumps them all. It's a fantastic sub by all measurements and it puts a smile on my face each time i fire it up. IMO, you should invest in Nike and "Just Do It." You won't be mad.

Thanks Dirk...I mean Digler (movie reference lol)...thanks for your input and for taking the time. Every little bit helps. I have been rockin' out dual 12's for the last ten or so years (SVS PC-12 NSD and SVS PC 20-39+) but my previous theater room in Brooklyn was only 2500 cubic feet and my current one is 5130 cubic feet. Thus, I want (need) an upgrade and I Jedi mind tricked the wife into believing that a new and bigger room needs, new and bigger subs . Lots of love for and leaning towards the V3600 pair, but that damn JTR Orbit Shifter keeps pulling at me as well. But in the next day or two I will "Just Do It" one way or another.
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post #26105 of 27630 Old 04-27-2016, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by brahman12 View Post
Toe...Dude...that was an awesome post. Thanks for responding and for putting in so much effort to try and get your point across. I could feel your excitement and passion through your typed words, lol. Really cool stuff. I know we all hear differently and have different tastes but when you get a meaningful and well thought out post, it does help others with trying to formulate a decision when they don't have their own reference point to vibe off of. When you talked about being very familiar with certain material by having listened to said material countless times, but then being awestruck all over again by how the material is being reproduced through the V3600....I knew exactly what you meant, and I am looking forward to watching my Rattle and Hum HD-DVD for the billionth time and getting that "hi-fi high" that is a deeply gratifying result of our beloved hobby. Whether it is through the artistic expression of cinema or music, those moments make the money spent worth every penny IMO.
Right-on my friend! Glad I could help and report back once you get whatever you decide on!
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post #26106 of 27630 Old 04-27-2016, 12:43 PM
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post #26107 of 27630 Old 04-27-2016, 12:48 PM
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SVS PC-12 NSD

That's what I had for some time, just one. Mine is worn out. I figured Tom V had a hand in the NSD so went to him for direction and now the S1500.
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post #26108 of 27630 Old 04-27-2016, 01:04 PM
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Toe and Dig… well said regarding the musicality of the V3600. And it's a match made in heaven when it's paired with the speakers.
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post #26109 of 27630 Old 04-27-2016, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
I think the low end roll off is due to the mic...we have the same one and I get the same type of roll off. Other then that, I think that is pretty solid output for your size of room. I think we are in the same ball park far as output, I am 125+ above 30hz, close to 120db @ 20hz, 118db @ 18hz, 113db @ 15hz. See how expensive large rooms are? 3k worth of subs in 2400^3 will net similar performance to 9k of subs it 5000^3 +. Imagine if you had all that fire power in 2400^3...you would quickly be learning sign language.

Also if you get a chance, download the "Vibrometer" app if you have a android device and measure the tactile response. I hit 7.2 playing heavy bass music, have not tried it with movies...I read somebody in the ULF thread hit 7.2 @ 10hz .
I've got a UMIK and REW. How do I test the actual output at various frequencies as you mentioned in your thread (i.e. 125 dB+ above 30 Hz, 118 dB @ 18 Hz)? Any worries about heating up the voice coil while doing this high output testing?

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post #26110 of 27630 Old 04-27-2016, 01:43 PM
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Here's how I do it:

1) Set up REW to output to HDMI CH4 (LFE)
2) Set AVR MV (master volume) to 0
3) Open the measurement dialogue (CTRL+M) and set the start to 5hz, end 200hz, sweep level -33dB FS, length to 256k
4) Add +5dB FS and repeat the measurements until you see compression in the frequency response graph

The highest you can measure is -3dB FS, if you need/want to go higher, just raise the MV level.

Make sure you have DynEQ off if you have an AVR with Audyssey.

With these short of sweeps from REW and the limiters in the PSA subs, there shouldn't be any danger of doing any damage, of course YMMV.

Last edited by Alan P; 04-27-2016 at 04:03 PM.
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post #26111 of 27630 Old 04-27-2016, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I was curious about Rattle & Hum in particular since I have that one.
I also have this CD but now I think it might be time to get the version Toe is talking about.

Toe where are you buying most of your HD music from?

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post #26112 of 27630 Old 04-27-2016, 03:53 PM
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4) Add +5dB FS and repeat the measurements until you see compression in the frequency response graph
I'm interested in trying this. How do I recognize compression in the graph? Thanks.

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post #26113 of 27630 Old 04-27-2016, 03:59 PM
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I'm interested in trying this. How do I recognize compression in the graph? Thanks.
When the trace doesn't go up linearly.

I just did some compression sweeps last night and posted them this morning. If you look at the top two traces, you can see compression starting to set in around 20hz on the -3dB trace, and gets even worse on the +2dB trace.

I think the compression on the very low end (<15hz) is due to my mic (UMM-6), so disregard that.


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post #26114 of 27630 Old 04-27-2016, 04:04 PM
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Here's how I do it:

1) Set up REW to output to HDMI CH4 (LFE)
2) Set AVR MV (master volume) to 0
3) Open the measurement dialogue (CTRL+M) and set the start to 5hz, end 200hz, sweep level -33dB FS, length to 256k
4) Add +5dB FS and repeat the measurements until you see compression in the frequency response graph

The highest you can measure is -3dB FS, if you need/want to go higher, just raise the MV level.

Make sure you have DynEQ off if you have an AVR with Audyssey.

With these short of sweeps from REW and the limiters in the PSA subs, there shouldn't be any danger of doing any damage, of course YMMV.

I wanted to mention that in my post above, I said to set the start to 5hz...if you have ported subs, there would be no reason to start that low. Adjust your starting frequency accordingly.
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post #26115 of 27630 Old 04-27-2016, 05:15 PM
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I also have this CD but now I think it might be time to get the version Toe is talking about.

Toe where are you buying most of your HD music from?
Most of the stuff I have looked for has been on either Amazon or ebay. Some of the rare out of production albums though I have had to pay a bit more for than I would have liked. I have also purchased some albums at other various random sites like the Pink Floyd store for the 5.1 Division Bell DVD (One of the best 5.1 recordings/mixes!) and a few other places that I can't recall off hand.

If you go to the surround music formats forum here on AVS you will be turned on to some good releases and where to buy.

Also quadraphonicquad.com has a "polls" section that discusses most surround releases and even takes a vote from members so you can see which discs are rated the best as far as a general consensus. I have found most the stuff rated in the 8-10 range to be a safe bet.

Also, don't be afraid to import since there is no region coding for sacd (and I believe DVD-A and blu ray audio is the same way, but not 100% sure on that).

I have had that U2 HD-DVD since HD-DVD was still around. Looks like the blu ray is going for about $50 (!) on Amazon unfortunately so it must be OOP.

Sorry, I would throw out some links but not sure how to do it on my phone and I got rid of my cable/internet at home (so my phone is my only link to the web right now besides work, but I'm usually out in the field).
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Last edited by Toe; 04-27-2016 at 05:38 PM.
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post #26116 of 27630 Old 04-27-2016, 05:39 PM
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^ Thanks Toe. I appreciate it. Especially if you had to type all that on a phone. I stink at typing on my phone. But my kids are masters at it.
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post #26117 of 27630 Old 04-27-2016, 06:21 PM
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it's a match made in heaven when it's paired with the speakers.
very true words here gentlemen.....the 210t's just sing in unison with the 3600. even as powerful as the 3600 is, the 210t's refuse to be outshined. it's a fantastic blend and it puts a smile on my face every time i fire these bad boys up.
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post #26118 of 27630 Old 04-27-2016, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
I think the low end roll off is due to the mic...we have the same one and I get the same type of roll off. Other then that, I think that is pretty solid output for your size of room. I think we are in the same ball park far as output, I am 125+ above 30hz, close to 120db @ 20hz, 118db @ 18hz, 113db @ 15hz. See how expensive large rooms are? 3k worth of subs in 2400^3 will net similar performance to 9k of subs it 5000^3 +. Imagine if you had all that fire power in 2400^3...you would quickly be learning sign language. .

Basshead - what size subs are you running and in what size room?


I've got dual S3600i subs Left and Right of MLP, both at 8' away, small room and run 97 dB at 7 Hz, 104 dB at 10 Hz, 106 dB at 20 Hz, 108 dB at 40 Hz, roughly 115 dB from 50 to 90 Hz and 104 dB at 100 Hz measured using a UMIK. Specs show 63 - 100 Hz at 135 dB. I assume I should subtract 10 dB due to being 8 feet away and then add 3 dB for duals - that should be 135 dB - 10 dB distance + 3 dB dual subs = 128 dB without factoring in any room gain. Any idea why I'm only measuring 115 dB in this frequency range?

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post #26119 of 27630 Old 04-27-2016, 07:18 PM
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Basshead - what size subs are you running and in what size room?


I've got dual S3600i subs Left and Right of MLP, both at 8' away, small room and run 97 dB at 7 Hz, 104 dB at 10 Hz, 106 dB at 20 Hz, 108 dB at 40 Hz, roughly 115 dB from 50 to 90 Hz and 104 dB at 100 Hz measured using a UMIK. Specs show 63 - 100 Hz at 135 dB. I assume I should subtract 10 dB due to being 8 feet away and then add 3 dB for duals - that should be 135 dB - 10 dB distance + 3 dB dual subs = 128 dB without factoring in any room gain. Any idea why I'm only measuring 115 dB in this frequency range?
3 XV15se in a 2300^3 room near field(end tables around seating area). I am going to assume your mic is not calibrated correctly or you have the wrong channel selected in rew. Do you have a SPL meter to verify?
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post #26120 of 27630 Old 04-27-2016, 10:18 PM
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Power everything off(subs too) and disconnect the cable(s) from the subs. Turn the subs to OFF and then to AUTO. This should have them *on*. Wait until they go into standby. If they don't cycle back on that would indicate some sort of signal coming through the cables.

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_________________________


Well - It appears the mystery of why my pair of V1800's were power cycling in really odd ways when the power switch was set to the "auto" position.......


Pure operator error!
I was corresponding with Tom via email the last couple of days trying to figure things out.
When trying a few things with the feed lines last night, I noted I had the feeds connected to the inputs marked "right" on the subs. I should have used the input labeled "left/LFE" (according to the manual - Duh!).
After correctly attaching the feed lines the subs powered up in sleep-mode with switch set to "auto" - All good and no power cycling.
I powered up the rest of the system - Subs work up! My Marantz SR6005 came on at MV -60db (ref) with the sub trim set to -9db - A very low signal level. No power cycling occurred - Yay!
Then I powered the main system off and the subs went to sleep virtually simultaneously in a few minutes. Again, no more weird power cycling after shutdown and they slept quietly all night long.
This morning Tom confirmed the LFE input need to be used for the auto sensing circuit to work properly.
So.... If your having a similar issues check that your feeds are connected to the correct input connectors first!!!
(And don't lean over the subs and try reading the input markings without your glasses on).


Tom - Thanks again for hanging in with me through all this. You have the patience of a saint.
CJ
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post #26121 of 27630 Old 04-28-2016, 12:25 AM
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^ Don't feel bad, I'm sure you're not the first one to make that mistake and you won't be the last. Glad you got it all worked out. Now you can rest easy knowing your subs are working just fine. It's always a little stressful when the subs are acting up (even when it is our fault).

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post #26122 of 27630 Old 04-28-2016, 03:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalCarl View Post
_________________________


Well - It appears the mystery of why my pair of V1800's were power cycling in really odd ways when the power switch was set to the "auto" position.......


Pure operator error!
I was corresponding with Tom via email the last couple of days trying to figure things out.
When trying a few things with the feed lines last night, I noted I had the feeds connected to the inputs marked "right" on the subs. I should have used the input labeled "left/LFE" (according to the manual - Duh!).
After correctly attaching the feed lines the subs powered up in sleep-mode with switch set to "auto" - All good and no power cycling.
I powered up the rest of the system - Subs work up! My Marantz SR6005 came on at MV -60db (ref) with the sub trim set to -9db - A very low signal level. No power cycling occurred - Yay!
Then I powered the main system off and the subs went to sleep virtually simultaneously in a few minutes. Again, no more weird power cycling after shutdown and they slept quietly all night long.
This morning Tom confirmed the LFE input need to be used for the auto sensing circuit to work properly.
So.... If your having a similar issues check that your feeds are connected to the correct input connectors first!!!
(And don't lean over the subs and try reading the input markings without your glasses on).


Tom - Thanks again for hanging in with me through all this. You have the patience of a saint.
CJ
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post #26123 of 27630 Old 04-28-2016, 05:10 AM
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Also while you are back there it is easy to bump the gain knob and change the output. I did that once lol

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post #26124 of 27630 Old 04-28-2016, 05:57 AM
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Thanks guys.
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post #26125 of 27630 Old 04-28-2016, 12:41 PM
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Also while you are back there it is easy to bump the gain knob and change the output. I did that once lol
Only once? Lucky you, I've done that more than a few times. I also bumped my delay as well. That's why I write everything down now.
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post #26126 of 27630 Old 04-29-2016, 01:43 AM
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3 XV15se in a 2300^3 room near field(end tables around seating area). I am going to assume your mic is not calibrated correctly or you have the wrong channel selected in rew. Do you have a SPL meter to verify?

I downloaded the UMIK calibration from MiniDSP which has the sensitivity data. I didn't know about that as I had been using the configuration file sent on USB with my UMIK and using my Radio Shack meter to set sensitivity. The UMIK now reads about +3 dB higher than my Radio Shack meter.

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Basshead - what size subs are you running and in what size room?

WOW - what a beautiful room and you've done a fantastic job integrating your subs!

(New measurements and sub locations) I've got dual S3600i subs Left Front (12') and Right (6') of MLP, small room and run 104 dB at 7 Hz, 114 dB at 10 Hz, 117 dB at 20 Hz, 119 dB at 40 Hz, roughly 116 dB from 50 to 90 Hz and 111 dB at 100 Hz measured using a UMIK.


Specs show 63 - 100 Hz at 135 dB. I assume I should subtract 12 dB due to being 9 feet (averaged from 6' and 12' from MLP) away and then add 3 dB for duals - that should be 135 dB - 12 dB distance + 3 dB dual subs = 126 dB without factoring in any room gain. So, I'm somehow falling short of expected here at around 116 dB. Am I making a proper comparison with my math?

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post #26127 of 27630 Old 04-29-2016, 03:44 AM
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Originally Posted by zorax2 View Post
(New measurements and sub locations) I've got dual S3600i subs Left Front (12') and Right (6') of MLP, small room and run 104 dB at 7 Hz, 114 dB at 10 Hz, 117 dB at 20 Hz, 119 dB at 40 Hz, roughly 116 dB from 50 to 90 Hz and 111 dB at 100 Hz measured using a UMIK.


Specs show 63 - 100 Hz at 135 dB. I assume I should subtract 12 dB due to being 9 feet (averaged from 6' and 12' from MLP) away and then add 3 dB for duals - that should be 135 dB - 12 dB distance + 3 dB dual subs = 126 dB without factoring in any room gain. So, I'm somehow falling short of expected here at around 116 dB. Am I making a proper comparison with my math?
Dual subs yield a 6 dB increase if you have them setup properly. Above 40 Hz, the subs will not automatically sum constructively if they are not placed and setup properly in relation to the room and the MLP. In other words, you will get a lot of room induced variation in the FR due to your room, sub placement, and location of MLP. Below 40 Hz or so, subs will usually sum much easier, so along with room gain that is why you are getting such solid readings down low. Your output up top can also be subject to a lot of errors such as having the crossover set too low during testing etc.
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post #26128 of 27630 Old 04-29-2016, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by zorax2 View Post
I downloaded the UMIK calibration from MiniDSP which has the sensitivity data. I didn't know about that as I had been using the configuration file sent on USB with my UMIK and using my Radio Shack meter to set sensitivity. The UMIK now reads about +3 dB higher than my Radio Shack meter.




WOW - what a beautiful room and you've done a fantastic job integrating your subs!

(New measurements and sub locations) I've got dual S3600i subs Left Front (12') and Right (6') of MLP, small room and run 104 dB at 7 Hz, 114 dB at 10 Hz, 117 dB at 20 Hz, 119 dB at 40 Hz, roughly 116 dB from 50 to 90 Hz and 111 dB at 100 Hz measured using a UMIK.


Specs show 63 - 100 Hz at 135 dB. I assume I should subtract 12 dB due to being 9 feet (averaged from 6' and 12' from MLP) away and then add 3 dB for duals - that should be 135 dB - 12 dB distance + 3 dB dual subs = 126 dB without factoring in any room gain. So, I'm somehow falling short of expected here at around 116 dB. Am I making a proper comparison with my math?
Thanks! As Bear pointed out the 40-80hz range is really going to be dictated by the room and placement more then the sub 30hz bass. Your numbers look pretty solid to me...above 50hz there should definitely be more. I would say those subs should easily hit 126db in the 50-80hz. However you if you or audyssey used EQ to lift the low end response naturally your upper end bass headroom will be limited. I would take pre and post eq compression sweeps so you can see clearly how the eq is being applied in your system.

For example, if I eq my system so I am flat +/-3db from 15-80hz, everything above 30hz is limited to 120db before compression sets in on a sweep. If I set my response up so everything below 30hz slowly rolls off about -6db by 18hz, then I can get to 125-126db above 30hz before compression starts. I personally like tmy response to roll off slightly below 30hz and put more emphasis on the 40-80hz region. It gives me more slam factor that way.

Getting Started with REW: A Step by Step Guide -->http://www.roomeqwizard.com/REWhelp.pdf

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Last edited by basshead81; 04-29-2016 at 09:42 AM.
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post #26129 of 27630 Old 04-29-2016, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post
For example, if I eq my system so I am flat +/-3db from 15-80hz, everything above 30hz is limited to 120db before compression sets in on a sweep. If I set my response up so everything below 30hz slowly rolls off about -6db by 18hz, then I can get to 125-126db above 30hz before compression starts. I personally like tmy response to roll off slightly below 30hz and put more emphasis on the 40-80hz region. It gives me more slam factor that way.
Are you back to using the MiniDSP, bh?

I currently am not, but have wondered if turning my sub room controls to "small" would net me the same increase in "slam" factor....?
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post #26130 of 27630 Old 04-29-2016, 03:02 PM
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Have not had a chance to dial in the S1500, just hooked up and in place. Sounds amazing. Dialing in this weekend if I can.
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