Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread - Page 892 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #26731 of 28541 Old 06-11-2016, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ahblaza View Post
Thanks Buddy, did you get the Triax up the stairs yet, I know when Ray bought my Cordovan he had to take the drivers out and carry them one at a time up to his van and he's a strong guy. The drivers are pretty hefty for 15"ers and he had to turn the enclosure sideways to fit between the banister and wall. He marked all the wires so he would know how to connect them back up when he got home, he called Tom a half hour later......

@Ray don't take that personally my friend I couldn't resist....

Chris waiting to hear your impressions, did I read that you had two 18"s DSS to go along with the 24"s?
LOL, no problem. I totally screwed up the markings when I did that.
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post #26732 of 28541 Old 06-11-2016, 08:55 PM
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Finally got it upstairs. I didn't get it wired up in time for movie night tonight but at least it is in place. Man is that thing heavy!



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post #26733 of 28541 Old 06-11-2016, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Finally got it upstairs. I didn't get it wired up in time for movie night tonight but at least it is in place. Man is that thing heavy!



Sweet!
It exudes power just sitting there.
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post #26734 of 28541 Old 06-12-2016, 07:33 AM
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Upgraded receivers to one with subEQ, removed the antimode, and am now experiencing clipping on my V1800 but none on the pc12+, even at just -5 to -8MV. I've never experienced clipping before using this receiver and understand how bad it can be for the hardware. In my old setup, I initially calibrated Audyssey about 10dB above 75dB so the receiver sub trim would start at -10dB and then I'd bump it up 6 or 8dB to still be around -4dB in Audyssey.
From what I gather, most people do it this way to allow adjustments and avoid signal clipping.

However, this time I let subEQ set the initial levels via the on screen display to 75dB on the subs which equates to 0dB on the receiver after Audyssey calibration. It clipped/popped a couple times during star wars tfa at -5MV without any increase in sub trim level (still at 0dB), and any increase even just 1 or 2dB on the receiver trim, caused a dramatic increase in clipping (aaaah!).

Last night while watching Pulse with the fiance, I bumped both sub gains up about 6db and turned down the receiver trim 3dB, it helped but did not eliminate the problem. I'll hopefully have time later today to recalibrate with the sub gain cranked up at least 10dB over reference to start and see if this fixes the problem, because it is very worrisome. If a recalibration doesn't help, I'll try swapping receiver outputs/cables and see if the other sub is affected.

Since only one sub is noticeably clipping, could this be an electrical current issue with one of the subwoofer outputs on the Denon X4200W?
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post #26735 of 28541 Old 06-12-2016, 04:09 PM
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Sorry for the long post but its Time to come clean....

I have had my 2 S3000i for quite a while now and have loved what they do from day one but the what if bug has had me thinking I may need ported due to the room being open to the rest of the first floor. It has always sounded good but missing something that I attributed to a dip in the 35-55 Hz range that was room related. Bad area for a dip and my placement options are not great for one of the 2 subs. One is really good and the other measured ok at best. I was able to get the combined response within +/- 4 so I lived with it and wondering if I should change to ported.

Over the past year or so I had one or two movies give some weird noises in 1 or 2 scenes-Pixels was one of them. A month ago I added in an Antimode Dual Core that of course showed my usual dip that it tried to correct. Sounded better with the time alignment that Anthem's ARC does not do but still missing something.

I broke out REW again to see the same pretty good combined response and started pushing the subs to try and check and see where compression was setting in. This was when I head some odd noises when pushing the subs hard. I narrowed it down to the sub with the poor FR.

Now I have been i contact with Tom over the past year and brought up some of my suspicions along the way about ported. He never steered me in that direction, it was all me. In fact Tom didn't think I needed the change. I figured I would try the AntiMode and at least try to put in a room curve to see if it helped.

I spoke with Tom on the noises I was getting as well as the fact tha I could now make them happen myself and he thought it may be a bad voice coil so he said he would send me 2 new drivers. I wanted to be sure before he spent money for nothing so I tried as many options as I could to see if it was hardware related or not. Now one of the S3000i (the one woth poor response) had physical shipping damage where the plate amp was actually dented slightly and was messing up the gain adjustment. You needed a straight edge to see the dent. Tom and Jim sent me a replacement amp that I installed.

Last thing Tom suggested was to make sure that the speaker leads were not in an area that they could vibrate against the speaker and also that the braces were ok-this sub took a heck of a hit to dent the plate amp. Off came the first driver-low and behold I wired one of the drivers backwards.

I was as much excited to find this as I am embarrassed to put this out here. No so much embarrassed that it happened but more so it took this long to find it. I knew immediately that one mis wired driver in a dual opposed sub had serious issues in output.

After properly wiring the driver, checking levels AntiMode now has a PEAK to pull down in the same area I had a dip!! Ran ARC and now for the past month I am in bass heaven!! No thoughts of ported to be had here any more!! I watched Deadpool last night and was totally blown away

Its like I have new subs again and time to que up my favorite movies and music all over again.

I know that a few here have been thinking if the S3000i or the S3600i and wondering if they can keep up in an open area. I can tell you that they can!! Maybe 2 V3600's would hit differently, but at this time I have no need to find out.
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post #26736 of 28541 Old 06-12-2016, 04:38 PM
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Sorry for the long post but its Time to come clean....
That's awesome. Don't be embarrassed about the mis-wiring it's easy to do especially since it's not something you do everyday and you had a hundred other things on your mind… things like: "Don't slip and ram the screw driver through the speaker", "Dang! This driver is really heavy I hope I don't drop it" and "Where the heck did all my screws go?" to name just a few.

I just finished watching Deadpool myself and had a blast with it. The V3600's had the room rumbling and the couch shaking. The movie is totally inappropriate on so many levels but I really enjoyed it. It has great audio and it did the PSA setup justice.

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post #26737 of 28541 Old 06-12-2016, 04:49 PM
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That's awesome. Don't be embarrassed about the mis-wiring it's easy to do especially since it's not something you do everyday and you had a hundred other things on your mind… things like: "Don't slip and ram the screw driver through the speaker", "Dang! This driver is really heavy I hope I don't drop it" and "Where the heck did all my screws go?" to name just a few.

I just finished watching Deadpool myself and had a blast with it. The V3600's had the room rumbling and the couch shaking. The movie is totally inappropriate on so many levels but I really enjoyed it. It has great audio and it did the PSA setup justice.
Thanks Hop. Yeah if it hadnt been for REW and my trying to really find out what is going on here, I likely wouldnt have found this issue. Now if it was a single sub that would have been different. It actually amazed me that I was able to get such a good combined response with the mis-wired sub. I guess that ARC's room eq seeing the 2 subs as one and correcting in that way does make a difference.

I agree on Deadpool. Definitely not for the young kids. I loved it while my girlfriend thought it was her least favorite of the superhero movies. She didnt dislike it as much as she doesnt go for the humor side while mass amounts of killing is going on. Me, I laughed my ass off (and she did too a few times).

We both laughed when he mentioned " I know your boyfriend said this is another super hero movie". We had that exact exchange when she asked what the movie was about.
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post #26738 of 28541 Old 06-12-2016, 04:56 PM
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That's awesome. Don't be embarrassed about the mis-wiring it's easy to do . . .
I agree. All of us have had that kind of goof at one time or another. What's good is when you discover your goof and it's such a simple fix like that

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post #26739 of 28541 Old 06-12-2016, 04:59 PM
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2 more days and my psa v18 comes in.. I have 2 klipsch synergy 12's lets see the difference. Hope it's huge
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post #26740 of 28541 Old 06-12-2016, 05:00 PM
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I agree. All of us have had that kind of goof at one time or another. What's good is when you discover your goof and it's such a simple fix like that
I just wish it hadnt taken so long to find it. I was in in the first run of S3000i........

Live and learn though.
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post #26741 of 28541 Old 06-12-2016, 05:29 PM
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2 more days and my psa v18 comes in.. I have 2 klipsch synergy 12's lets see the difference. Hope it's huge
You have no idea of how huge it's going to be my friend. Experiencing the V1800 coming from the Synergy 12's is a huge uptick in quality bass. Congrats and let us know what your thoughts are. Also provide some pics for us.
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post #26742 of 28541 Old 06-12-2016, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by gbreda View Post
Sorry for the long post but its Time to come clean....
As I was reading your post, I thought, "What the heck is he talking about???" Two S3000i's should be hammering that room! Then I see where there was a wiring problem. Great to get that out of the way, huh? Enjoy your S3000i's. It's truly a great sub.
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post #26743 of 28541 Old 06-12-2016, 05:52 PM
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As I was reading your post, I thought, "What the heck is he talking about???" Two S3000i's should be hammering that room! Then I see where there was a wiring problem. Great to get that out of the way, huh? Enjoy your S3000i's. It's truly a great sub.
You of all people will remember my first impression of the single S3000i when it was placed in my #1 prime location in the room. When I went to dual with the 2nd best placement (not 2nd best by much) and the other being so so at best I attributed the dip to the room.

Now that the wiring is corrected and that same dip has inverted into a peak, its ALMOST like night and day difference.

I'm back to checking the outside siding again after bass heavy movies.
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post #26744 of 28541 Old 06-12-2016, 05:57 PM
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She didnt dislike it as much as she doesnt go for the humor side while mass amounts of killing is going on. Me, I laughed my ass off (and she did too a few times).
I laughed so hard at one point I started tearing up and couldn't catch my breath. The movie is hilarious. A bit raw but hilarious nonetheless.
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post #26745 of 28541 Old 06-12-2016, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by gbreda View Post
Sorry for the long post but its Time to come clean....

I have had my 2 S3000i for quite a while now and have loved what they do from day one but the what if bug has had me thinking I may need ported due to the room being open to the rest of the first floor. It has always sounded good but missing something that I attributed to a dip in the 35-55 Hz range that was room related. Bad area for a dip and my placement options are not great for one of the 2 subs. One is really good and the other measured ok at best. I was able to get the combined response within +/- 4 so I lived with it and wondering if I should change to ported.

Over the past year or so I had one or two movies give some weird noises in 1 or 2 scenes-Pixels was one of them. A month ago I added in an Antimode Dual Core that of course showed my usual dip that it tried to correct. Sounded better with the time alignment that Anthem's ARC does not do but still missing something.

I broke out REW again to see the same pretty good combined response and started pushing the subs to try and check and see where compression was setting in. This was when I head some odd noises when pushing the subs hard. I narrowed it down to the sub with the poor FR.

Now I have been i contact with Tom over the past year and brought up some of my suspicions along the way about ported. He never steered me in that direction, it was all me. In fact Tom didn't think I needed the change. I figured I would try the AntiMode and at least try to put in a room curve to see if it helped.

I spoke with Tom on the noises I was getting as well as the fact tha I could now make them happen myself and he thought it may be a bad voice coil so he said he would send me 2 new drivers. I wanted to be sure before he spent money for nothing so I tried as many options as I could to see if it was hardware related or not. Now one of the S3000i (the one woth poor response) had physical shipping damage where the plate amp was actually dented slightly and was messing up the gain adjustment. You needed a straight edge to see the dent. Tom and Jim sent me a replacement amp that I installed.

Last thing Tom suggested was to make sure that the speaker leads were not in an area that they could vibrate against the speaker and also that the braces were ok-this sub took a heck of a hit to dent the plate amp. Off came the first driver-low and behold I wired one of the drivers backwards.

I was as much excited to find this as I am embarrassed to put this out here. No so much embarrassed that it happened but more so it took this long to find it. I knew immediately that one mis wired driver in a dual opposed sub had serious issues in output.

After properly wiring the driver, checking levels AntiMode now has a PEAK to pull down in the same area I had a dip!! Ran ARC and now for the past month I am in bass heaven!! No thoughts of ported to be had here any more!! I watched Deadpool last night and was totally blown away

Its like I have new subs again and time to que up my favorite movies and music all over again.

I know that a few here have been thinking if the S3000i or the S3600i and wondering if they can keep up in an open area. I can tell you that they can!! Maybe 2 V3600's would hit differently, but at this time I have no need to find out.
Glad you got everything figured out!

You got any pics of the beast?

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post #26746 of 28541 Old 06-12-2016, 06:38 PM
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Glad you got everything figured out!

You got any pics of the beast?
Not at this time, I can try and get some in the next day or so
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post #26747 of 28541 Old 06-12-2016, 07:22 PM
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^^^^^^
+1 on not having to go ported for open areas. I love mine and would never go ported!
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post #26748 of 28541 Old 06-12-2016, 07:50 PM
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Not at this time, I can try and get some in the next day or so
That would be awesome.

Some video would be cool to, I'm gonna try and post some videos myself

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post #26749 of 28541 Old 06-12-2016, 07:51 PM
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^^^^^^
+1 on not having to go ported for open areas. I love mine and would never go ported!

These are first sealed units and I feel the same. I really love and never plan on going ported agin

Can't wait to have 4 of these beasts
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post #26750 of 28541 Old 06-12-2016, 08:05 PM
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These are first sealed units and I feel the same. I really love and never plan on going ported agin

Can't wait to have 4 of these beasts
What do you prefer in the sealed over your previous subs?

I am still on fence whether I should go sealed or ported in my tiny room. I had sealed previously but the XV I have in there now for the time being sounds so good but then posts like yours have me rethinking it!
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post #26751 of 28541 Old 06-12-2016, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by gbreda View Post
You of all people will remember my first impression of the single S3000i when it was placed in my #1 prime location in the room. When I went to dual with the 2nd best placement (not 2nd best by much) and the other being so so at best I attributed the dip to the room.

Now that the wiring is corrected and that same dip has inverted into a peak, its ALMOST like night and day difference.

I'm back to checking the outside siding again after bass heavy movies.
LOL ! Indeed I do. It's terrific that it was something so simple and you are now enjoying them exactly the way you thought you would. Congratulations, gbreda!
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post #26752 of 28541 Old 06-12-2016, 08:25 PM
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I am still on fence whether I should go sealed or ported in my tiny room. I had sealed previously but the XV I have in there now for the time being sounds so good but then posts like yours have me rethinking it!
There are instances where one alignment would work better than the other, but in large part personal preference governs the decision. If you like what you have don't second guess yourself, just enjoy it.

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post #26753 of 28541 Old 06-13-2016, 06:48 AM
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What do you prefer in the sealed over your previous subs?

I am still on fence whether I should go sealed or ported in my tiny room. I had sealed previously but the XV I have in there now for the time being sounds so good but then posts like yours have me rethinking it!
I briefly owned one of the first V1500's then ordered an XS30se to compare with it. When pushed hard with subsonic bass the ported sub would make "odd sounds" while the sealed sub did not. I quickly decided to return the V1500 and keep the XS30se and have since added a second. It is my theory that pushing a ported sub too hard with bass below tuning can result in distracting sounds where as a sealed sub will simply run out of output.
It really comes down buying the right AMOUNT of sub(s) for your space. Ported vs sealed doesn't have to be determined by the size of your room, it has more to do with how hard you push each sub and how willing/able you are to buy the amount of subs you need for your space and listening levels.
Personally I would rather have less output below 20Hz than risk any "odd sounds" but your opinion may differ.

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post #26754 of 28541 Old 06-13-2016, 09:12 AM
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2 more days and my psa v18 comes in.. I have 2 klipsch synergy 12's lets see the difference. Hope it's huge
I'm excited for you! And I'm glad you found these forums helpful in your decision making. Also, if this is your first high end subwoofer, I think you'll be blown away by the quality/accuracy of the bass vs your current setup, and I bet you'll find the output of the V1800 so vastly superior to the 12" klipsch synergy, it'll be hard to compare.

Some fun numbers: a 12" subwoofer cone has about 113.1^2 inches of surface area versus an 18" cone with 254.5^2 inches, which equates to approximately 2.25 times the surface area of a single 12". Granted, there are a plethora of other factors determining output, and that I leave up to the smart peoples that engineer and build these beauties.
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post #26755 of 28541 Old 06-13-2016, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Docethic View Post
What do you prefer in the sealed over your previous subs?

I am still on fence whether I should go sealed or ported in my tiny room. I had sealed previously but the XV I have in there now for the time being sounds so good but then posts like yours have me rethinking it!
It's hard to explain really. Ill give it a shot. I feel like the sealed subs sound a little fuller and blend more seamlessly into my system. I also like the upper punch they give beyond 50hz or so.

If I were in a large space I would still use my martys, but since I moved my theater upstairs to small room I decided to try sealed and I really like em. I also tried them nearfeild and they had incredible tactical response but ultimately gave best FR up front.

I think I would be happy with either though when properly set up. I just prefer the sealed sound signature a little better I guess

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post #26756 of 28541 Old 06-13-2016, 12:53 PM
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The sealed vs. ported debate is an old one to be sure. The answer comes down to things like personal preference, space, budget and amount of bass desired. In larger areas you need to either have very powerful sealed subs (which all of you guys have) or you need to have multiple sealed subs (which I believe all of you guys have). So it makes perfect sense to me that you guys like your sealed subs because you did what needs to be done when one goes sealed.

I've had both sealed and ported and personally I really like ported because of the power you get around port tune. In my subwoofer travels I learned that my desire for copious amounts of bass requires powerful subs. But because I have a space that goes beyond large and into the realm of huge sealed really wasn't an option, not if I wanted the power I get around port tune. So I basically had a choice of going with four S3600's or two V3600's (or two T18's which was out of my budget). I know this because when I was debating returning my original V3600 to get the newly released S3600 it was a topic of discussion on this very thread. So personal preference, large open area, budget and desired level of bass all played into going ported and staying ported.

But one other thing keeps gnawing in the back of my mind, when I had a sealed sub in the past I really missed the expansive full impact that I felt I always had gotten with ported. In other words the sub felt muted. But I assume that this had to do with the fact I only had one sealed sub at the time and although it was considered powerful on a spec sheet (and more powerful than the ported sub I had before it) it was nothing compared to even PSA's smallest sealed sub…the 15S. But what I did learn from that sealed sub was that if you go sealed you need to do so with authority if you have larger areas and you want big bass.

So all in all allow me to say I love ported subs and I doubt I would trade them in for sealed… at least not until my room shrinks or my budget expands. Having said all that I think that given the right circumstances sealed are the right way to go and I really really want to get my hands on dual S3600's to see how they would hold up to the dual V3600's in my cavernous basement HT. I have no doubt they would sound wonderful. But could they hold their own and bring the impact that the V3600s have? I would love to find out.
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Last edited by Hopinater; 06-13-2016 at 01:00 PM.
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post #26757 of 28541 Old 06-13-2016, 01:25 PM
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I've been watching stuff since going from +3dB over Audyssey to +7 and it's FREAKIN AWESOME!!!!!!
Watched Cloverfield Saturday night and that has to be one of the best I've heard! Right now I'm enjoying Scott Pilgrim vs The World!
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post #26758 of 28541 Old 06-13-2016, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Upgraded receivers to one with subEQ, removed the antimode, and am now experiencing clipping on my V1800 but none on the pc12+, even at just -5 to -8MV. I've never experienced clipping before using this receiver and understand how bad it can be for the hardware. In my old setup, I initially calibrated Audyssey about 10dB above 75dB so the receiver sub trim would start at -10dB and then I'd bump it up 6 or 8dB to still be around -4dB in Audyssey.
From what I gather, most people do it this way to allow adjustments and avoid signal clipping.

However, this time I let subEQ set the initial levels via the on screen display to 75dB on the subs which equates to 0dB on the receiver after Audyssey calibration. It clipped/popped a couple times during star wars tfa at -5MV without any increase in sub trim level (still at 0dB), and any increase even just 1 or 2dB on the receiver trim, caused a dramatic increase in clipping (aaaah!).

Last night while watching Pulse with the fiance, I bumped both sub gains up about 6db and turned down the receiver trim 3dB, it helped but did not eliminate the problem. I'll hopefully have time later today to recalibrate with the sub gain cranked up at least 10dB over reference to start and see if this fixes the problem, because it is very worrisome. If a recalibration doesn't help, I'll try swapping receiver outputs/cables and see if the other sub is affected.

Since only one sub is noticeably clipping, could this be an electrical current issue with one of the subwoofer outputs on the Denon X4200W?
Just recently (like, a couple days ago) I discovered purely by chance that XT32 may have gotten my sub distance wrong...and if so, it has been wrong for a very long time.

After I corrected it; O...M...G!

It's very strange, and I haven't gotten to the bottom of it yet (have to do some timing reference measurements with REW to confirm), but I am now getting about 2x the impact and tactile response than before, with absolutely no increase in SPL...it's the strangest thing to me.

Anyways, the moral of my story is this; play with the sub distance on your closest sub (try longer distance settings as well as closer) while playing actual content that you are familiar with. You may just happen upon a distance setting that will give you the gains I have seen.

BTW, my subs were set at 18.5' and 11.2' by Audyssey. Reducing the second sub to 5.2' is where it is now pounding my room (and body) into submission. Actual distance to subs is about 18' and 5.5'.
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post #26759 of 28541 Old 06-13-2016, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post
The sealed vs. ported debate is an old one to be sure. The answer comes down to things like personal preference, space, budget and amount of bass desired. In larger areas you need to either have very powerful sealed subs (which all of you guys have) or you need to have multiple sealed subs (which I believe all of you guys have). So it makes perfect sense to me that you guys like your sealed subs because you did what needs to be done when one goes sealed.

I've had both sealed and ported and personally I really like ported because of the power you get around port tune. In my subwoofer travels I learned that my desire for copious amounts of bass requires powerful subs. But because I have a space that goes beyond large and into the realm of huge sealed really wasn't an option, not if I wanted the power I get around port tune. So I basically had a choice of going with four S3600's or two V3600's (or two T18's which was out of my budget). I know this because when I was debating returning my original V3600 to get the newly released S3600 it was a topic of discussion on this very thread. So personal preference, large open area, budget and desired level of bass all played into going ported and staying ported.

But one other thing keeps gnawing in the back of my mind, when I had a sealed sub in the past I really missed the expansive full impact that I felt I always had gotten with ported. In other words the sub felt muted. But I assume that this had to do with the fact I only had one sealed sub at the time and although it was considered powerful on a spec sheet (and more powerful than the ported sub I had before it) it was nothing compared to even PSA's smallest sealed sub…the 15S. But what I did learn from that sealed sub was that if you go sealed you need to do so with authority if you have larger areas and you want big bass.

So all in all allow me to say I love ported subs and I doubt I would trade them in for sealed… at least not until my room shrinks or my budget expands. Having said all that I think that given the right circumstances sealed are the right way to go and I really really want to get my hands on dual S3600's to see how they would hold up to the dual V3600's in my cavernous basement HT. I have no doubt they would sound wonderful. But could they hold their own and bring the impact that the V3600s have? I would love to find out.
Sealed vs ported is like chess and checkers. Ported is a quick game with instant gratification. Sealed is a longer game (adding additional subs over time) and takes a bit more strategy, but when you so finally win it has a bigger payoff
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post #26760 of 28541 Old 06-13-2016, 01:56 PM
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Sealed vs ported is like chess and checkers. Ported is a quick game with instant gratification. Sealed is a longer game (adding additional subs over time) and takes a bit more strategy, but when you so finally win it has a bigger payoff
So winning at chess feels better than winning at checkers?
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